On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 01:40:57 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/20/24 3:30 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 03:22:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> I laugh at those 'ancestry' companies who will tell their clients
>>> that they're "12% French" or whatever.
>>
>> But the percentages are so precise! And the story changes! The last
>> time I looked it said I-M253 was very rare among 23andMe customers. I
>> found that odd since it can run to 50% in parts of Scandinavia. Didn't
>> they have any Scandinavian customers? Today is says
>>
>> 'I-M253 is relatively common among 23andMe customers.'
>>
>> Dammit, I'm not special anymore!
>
>
> But they got your MONEY - and, briefly, appealed to your vanity :-)

I was curious about one of my grandmothers more than anything. She was
from Quebec with no backstory. They still are looking for money. 'We've
got the new v6 chip which will give even better results. Since you're an
old customer, only $79 for the upgrade'

There was quite a bit of chatter on the subreddit when it first came out
where people got completely different results from the last time around. I
don't know if they tuned up the algorithm but I satisfied my curiosity
years ago.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingsblood_Royal

Sinclair Lewis wrote that about the surprises you might find if you go
digging long before DNA.

On 21/12/2024 06:51, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> Trains are kinda 'yesterday tech' ... and now the profit
>   margins are negligible. Don't expect 'luxury' unless YOU
>   are willing to pay for it and the transport co gets enough
>   high-paying passengers to justify. If ENOUGH then then Hell
>   Yes they will hire gourmet chefs and such and put in
>   comfy seats.

They may be tomorrows tech too, if fossil fuel prices rise high enough.
Its all in the and cost-benefit analysis on riad building and cost of
fuel versus cost of rail plus overhead lines and cheap nuclear power.

Electric cars for long distances? Dont make me laugh..

>
>   Otherwise it's the 10-day-old plastic-wrapped sandwich.
>
>   It's a pity zeppelins proved so impractical - THOSE had
>   a 'romance' and you COULD go for 'luxury'. Cruise ships
>   are a step up, but maybe only one step.
>
Nuclear powered luxury liners are a definite possibility.

>   Anyway, for now, expect all transportation to be Just
>   Another Uber. We will have to wait for Musk to build
>   a luxury Earth/Mars travel line.

Whatever :-)

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On 21/12/2024 07:54, rbowman wrote:
> I do find the attempts to model neurophysiology fascinating. I was about
> 20 years too early or I probably would have wound up in cognitive science.

Went tpo a talk at my old college once - the lady was a robotocist.
She said that by far and away the most computational power went on

....walking on two feet!

We have big brains not to compose music or do science, but to walk
upright...

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
> On 12/20/24 4:18 AM, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> writes:
>>> However there is ONE group - the Basques - who seem to have come
>>> quite early and were not over-run.
>> The local language does seem to have been resistant to replacement
>> for a
>> few thousand years. However the population genetics is rather less
>> static, with almost complete Y-chromosome replacement by R1b-M269 after
>> 2000BCE.
>
> I'd heard that - but don't ask me for a ref.
>
>> See e.g. Olalde et al, The genomic history of the Iberian Peninsula over
>> the past 8000 years.
>
> As I kinda menntioned in all this ... there's really just no such
> thing as 'genetic purity' in Europe.

Or anywhere else. You only get genetic purity in very isolated
populations, and they start building up inherited diseases real
quick. See niche dog breeds for a non-human example.

> Over thousands of years various people/groups kept moving around and
> moving around and screwing anything interesting they encountered.
>
> So, is 'nation' more a CULTURAL THING instead ?

Absolutely yes. People group themselves in all sorts of ways: shared
language, shared religion, shared territory, shared enemy, shared
preferred computing platform. Pretty much anything you can think of.

> 'Culture' seems more resilient - genes rather
> secondary.
>
> As for the Basques ... ONLY a 'Y' replacement seems
> very odd .....

It’s not hard to imagine models that produce the result observed.
e.g. suppose (1) R1b-M269 social structures led to a surplus of males
(2) that they married ‘out’ into the Iberian neolithic population
(3) they bring their technogical innovations (presumably, nomadic
pastoralism) with them, leading to greater long-term success
(4) as, initially, a relative minority they adopt the local language
(Proto-Proto-Basque or whatever) rather than bringing an IE dialect with
them as seen elsewhere in Europe.

Not saying that’s what happened, other models are possible and reality
is usually more complex than anything you could put in a single
paragraph, just that it’s not hard to imagine ways that it could happen.

> We were still speculating about 'Cheddar Man'. For awhile they figured
> African/N.African mostly based on the length/size/profile of
> bones. What LITTLE DNA they could get suggests a migrant from western
> Europe, but it was a small sample. There's also question about WHAT
> "western euro" actually MEANT, genetically, at the exact timeframe.

I don’t think there’s any evidence that he was a migrant at all. His
genetics seem to be comparable to older remains from Britain and
Ireland.

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-20, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an uploaded
>> intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like you, it wouldn't be
>> you. I like conscious continuity, but many transhumanists do not require that
>> or believe that.
>
> On a related note, is it really reincarnation if you can't remember past lives?

Let's ask god and see what his opinion is! ;) From a teaching point of
view I always found it weird that you're supposed to "learn" something or
achieve some purpose.

It's like god says, hey, learn this, but I'll mindwipe you every time so
you cannot accumulate any knowledge and learn from your mistakes, except
by chance. Have fun!

On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 20/12/2024 21:28, D wrote:
>> I usually do the same if I need to go to Gothenburg. Since there's a city
>> airport in Stockholm, you could get there a bit faster with plane, but the
>> difference was quite small. Now they are closing the city airport, which
>> means I would lose 2 hours going to the international one, so the train
>> would make much more sense. Especially since I can walk around and work all
>> the way. The only danger is autumn and winter when the trains are
>> completely unpredictable, but spring and summer works fairly ok.
>
> Is Gothenburg srill a reasonable place to be. My sister lived there, but
> left. I heard it was now another 'stan...
> ..Like Malmö

This is the truth. Sadly it is another *stan. =( Otherwise a nice city,
good size (I don't like big cities) and excellent quality of fish! They've
been under socialist rule since forever, so that takes its toll on any
city.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:24:19 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Hutterite turkeys? Had no idea such a thing existed! I learned today
>> that the japanese eat KFC chicken for christmas, since turkey is very
>> hard to get in japan.
>>
>> If you know someone, maybe Hutterite turkey export to japan might be
>> your ticket to wealth and fame! =D
>
> https://nbcmontana.com/news/local/hutterite-turkeys-popular-for-
> thanksgiving-dinner_20160510235145833
>
> There must have been a surplus. I was at Pattee Creek yesterday picking up
> the makings for sauerbraten and there was a freezer full at 99 cents a
> pound. People do eat turkey at other times than Thanksgiving but that's
> what the whole turkey industry is geared for.
>

Interesting! Reminds me of an arabian I met once who had a nice business
going on exporting chicken feet from brazil, selling them in hong kong.
Maybe Hutterite turkey nippon LLC could be a thing! ;)

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:36:45 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Another thing that's not for me. I don't have the time nor do I care for
>> hair products and stylized hair cuts.
>
> Someone on X yesterday asked for beard oil recommendations. I couldn't
> resist recommending Rotella T4 15W-40. My beard gets oiled when something
> goes very wrong with a maintenance project.
>
> That's the basis for my style. Brush it back and tie it. Done. No awkward
> questions from barbers about what I want.
>

This is a strong, scientific argument in favour of a pony tail! I do not
think I have the genetics to grow my hair that long though. My beard stops
growing after about 0.5-1 cm or so to my great sorrow. =(

Well, at least there is one. There are sad men without any beard at all,
so I'm fortunate from that point of view!

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:28:40 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> . The only danger is autumn and winter when the trains are completely
>> unpredictable, but spring and summer works fairly ok.
>
> I took the train from Albany to NYC a couple of times in the late '60s
> when the New York Central was headed for bankruptcy. Heat was optional in
> the winter.
>
> It was sad. Grand Central Terminal was theirs and the Empire State Express
> was famous.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxK9-jachh8
>
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
>
> That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing as
> elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the
> smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
> different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.

Nonense... what doesn't kill us makes us stronger! ;)

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:34:51 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Sounds like Mobergs utvandrarna where the woman wants to go home, and
>> the man wants to stay. Kind of weird that my wife now wants to move, and
>> I want to stay.
>
> It's a good read. Part of Beret's problem was the Dakotas are mostly
> steppes. Per had his farming but all she had was looking out at endless
> grass or during the winter endless white snow. He realizes she is
> depressed and has the brainstorm to whitewash the inside of the cabin to
> brighten it up. That put her over the edge.

Haha, brilliant!

> Rolvaag himself grew up on Dønna island in a family that fished in
> Lofoten. Looking at photos of that area I wonder if that made his
> descriptions of the horror of endless prairies a personal thing. The land
> was available and cheap but it must have taken a while to adapt. I don't
> do well in the flatlands and don't think I could handle it.

As long as there's forest or water I'm happy. Very neutral on mountains.
The wife however, loves moutains, and that severely limits the places
where we can move, but I think she'll be ok with a pine forest. She hates
leafy trees though. Hmm, very picky woman, now that I think of it! ;)

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:31:38 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I am always fascinated by all these train related web sites. Few ways of
>> travel seem to awaken and inspire the passion, as travel by train!
>
> There is a mystique even for people where train travel isn't feasible. So
> much has been lost.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Station_(Albany,_New_York)
>
> That was replaced by
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albany%E2%80%93Rensselaer_station

Jesus! What a crime! The airport in Lithuania has a part that is old 20th
century style, and now they are expanding the airport with... you guessed
it, an anonymous glass and concrete structure, just like every other
airport on the planet. =( I like the old part and was hoping that they'd
continue on that theme, but no... the architects need to get their pound
of flesh! =(

> More than the architecture, Union Station was in the heart of Albany.
> Rensselaer is a small town on the other side of the river so it's like
> landing at JFK. "Okay, I'm here. What do I do now?"
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_Station_(Troy,_New_York)
>
> When I was very young my mother and I took the train from there to go over
> to the Boston Flower show. They just tore that one down. If you wanted to
> take the train you had to drive to Albany or, after they shut that one
> down, Rensselaer.
>
> So in my lifetime rail travel has went from a common occurrence to an
> inconvenient, expensive way to travel outside of specific corridors.

This is the truth! In theory, it should be possible to travel in a
civilized manner on trains. In practice I guess regulations and the
realities of modern life get in the way. =(

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 22:38:11 +0100, D wrote:
>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
>>> St._Francis_Xavier_Church_(Missoula,_Montana)
>>
>> Now we're talking!!
>
> Leaving theology entirely aside Catholics always had a much better
> aesthetic sense than Protestants. The protestants even parsed the
> decalogue to wind up with "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image"
> rather than "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain"
> that the Catholics and Lutherans use. Bunch of damn dour Taliban types.

This is the truth!

> Statues! Candles! Incense! Paintings! A church isn't supposed to look like
> a barn!

Have a look at Quaker churches and weep. ;)

> Of course, the Catholics seem determined to give that all away. Francis X
> has streaming video of the Mass. I watched once and hardly recognized it.

Yeah... he's not my favourite pope. I wonder if there will be a huge
backlash and a super conservative pope when it's time for him to go? I
heard rumours that one contender for the papacy is the only swedish
cardinal Anders (?) Arborelius.

Yesterday, he purchased a church from the swedish church since they do no
longer have the funds to care for and renovate the church. So instead of
it just slowly deteriorating, the catholic church acquired it, and the
swedish church still gets some usage rights.

Here it is:

https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankt_Johannes_kyrka,_Stockholm

Soon to be catholic.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/20/24 4:40 AM, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:03:59 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>>>>>> result would be much better.  Perhaps less security theater?
>>>>>
>>>>> Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
>>>>> theater.  You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
>>>>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
>>>>> anything "security check" wise.  You show your ticket at the counter
>>>>> (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
>>>>> train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
>>>>
>>>> This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
>>>> where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3
>>>> course meal as well? =D
>>>>
>>>> Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old,
>>>> plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)
>>>
>>> If you're very, very lucky. There is a group in Indiana that had restored
>>> an old steam engine and takes it out for a spin every now and then for
>>> fund raisers They also have period cars and volunteers do serve beverages
>>> and meals. As a bonus the destination was Peru IN and the Circus Hall of
>>> Fame.
>>>
>>> A couple of times I took Amtrak from Ft. Wayne to Chicago. It was a
>>> difference experience. Amtrak on the Boston to DC corridor gets a lot of
>>> love; other areas not so much.
>>
>> There was a train between Stockholm and Gothenburg that focused on the
>> "luxury" niche.
>>
>> https://www.blataget.com/en/history/
>>
>> The web site is super crappy, and hardly any photos (why??) but you can
>> kind of see the interior which looks alright and the food as well. Sadly I
>> do not think they ru nany longer. =(
>>
>> I love the fact that the phone nr on the web site goes to someones regular
>> cellphone and not to a company switch board.
>
>
> Trains are kinda 'yesterday tech' ... and now the profit
> margins are negligible. Don't expect 'luxury' unless YOU
> are willing to pay for it and the transport co gets enough
> high-paying passengers to justify. If ENOUGH then then Hell
> Yes they will hire gourmet chefs and such and put in
> comfy seats.
>
> Otherwise it's the 10-day-old plastic-wrapped sandwich.

This is the (sad) truth!

> It's a pity zeppelins proved so impractical - THOSE had
> a 'romance' and you COULD go for 'luxury'. Cruise ships
> are a step up, but maybe only one step.

I have on my to do list to start a zeppelin airline between europe and new
york. I just need to utilize synchronicity to bump into Richard Branson or
other billionaire of choice first, and then we're off! =D

> Anyway, for now, expect all transportation to be Just
> Another Uber. We will have to wait for Musk to build
> a luxury Earth/Mars travel line.

I'm following the career of Musk with great interest! I wonder if he will
be the first trillionaire? I also wonder if he will eventually burn out or
if something will happen to him since he's achieved so much in such a
short time.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/20/24 10:59 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2024-12-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhY2-gNG9k
>>>
>>> That one brought back memories. I had a Lionel train set but nothing as
>>> elaborate as that one. There were little pellets you dropped in the
>>> smokestack to create the smoke effect. They probably contained 17
>>> different carcinogens but those were more innocent times.
>>
>> Back then, everybody was smoking so much that a few smoke pellets
>> were neglegible.
>
> Note a lot of those gens are still alive while all
> the latter ones seem to be dropping dead of cancers
> in their 20s/30s.

This is very strange. How come bodies react so differently to cigarettes?
I've known old people in their 80s and 90s who smoked all their lives, and
I've heard about people in their 50s and 60s dieing of lung cancer. Very
strange how differently cigarettes affect peoples health.

An acquaintance had a grandmother who smoked until she was 70 or so, and
one day she said... "I've had it, I quit smoking now" and just like that,
over a day, she quit smoking.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/20/24 12:19 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 01:31:30 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> It's the 'hand-wave' thing that sunk the first AI paradigm.
>>> Marv Minsky (who posted on usenet for awhile) and friends saw how
>>> easily 'decisions' could be done with a transistor or two and assumed
>>> it would thus be easy to build an AI. AC Clarke used the Minsky
>>> optimism when fashioning the idea of "HAL".
>>
>> Minsky threw a wrench in the works with his 9169 'Perceptrons'. He had
>> tried to implement B. F. skinner's operant condition with a analog lashup
>> that sort of worked if the vacuum tubes didn't burn out. Rosenblatt has
>> built a 'Perceptron' and Minsky pointed out original design couldn't
>> handle an XOR. That sent research down another rabbit hole.
>>
>> By the '80s the original perceptron had evolved into a multilayer network
>> train by back propagation. When I played around with it 'Parallel
>> Distributed Processing' by Rumelhart and McClelland was THE book.
>>
>> https://direct.mit.edu/books/monograph/4424/Parallel-Distributed-
>> Processing-Volume
>>
>> The ideas were fascinating but the computing power wasn't there. Most of
>> what I learned then is still relevant to TensorFlow and the other neural
>> network approaches except now there are the $30,000 Nvidia GPUs to do the
>> heavy lifting.
>>
>> The '80s neural networks weren't practical so the focus shifted to expert
>> systems until they petered out. The boom and bust cycles led to the term
>> 'AI Winter'
>>
>> https://www.techtarget.com/searchenterpriseai/definition/AI-winter
>>
>> I think something worthwhile will come from this cycle but ultimately it
>> won't be the LLMs that are getting all the hype.
>
> With Minsky and friends it was just naive enthusiasm ...
> it was SO EASY to do logic and thus it seemed SO EASY
> to wire bits of it together and get an 'intelligence'.
>
> The same gen also promised us those flying cars and
> luxury Mars living by 1999 .......
>
> IMHO, if we're gonna get anything largely indistinguishable
> from 'sentience' these days it'll be the next few gens of
> LLMs. You can argue it'd be "fake" - but if you fake something
> WELL ENOUGH it's not fake anymore. LLMs and near derivs are
> where the HUGE money is these days.
>
> I did have a few posts with Minsky as his vision was
> falling apart. He did admit that he'd totally underestimated
> the problem. A few transistors did NOT replace 600 million
> years of evolutionary experiments - 'intelligence'/'self'
> was really deep/complex with endless fuzzy processing and
> pattern matching steps between 'I' and 'O'.
>
> However I still keep a copy of his "Society Of Mind"
> as a reminder of yesterday's optimism. He THOUGHT
> about it, TRIED ... and thus eventual failure was
> not really a failure - it just inspired new directions.
> There had to be a foundation to build on.
>
> There was a short-lived UK series about androids
> that eventually came to self-awareness (and the
> hate/fear directed towards them). The idea there
> was that 'self' was a sort of fractal, self-reflective,
> kind of paradigm. I suspect they had something there.
> Chat/LLMs maybe can't achieve that on their own, but
> who says you can't splice on a few more methods ?
> Organic brains seem to have LOTS of layers, lots
> of 'little people' inside that merge into 'Me'.

I've also thought about this approach. We have OCR, we have voice
recognition, we have chess, we have diagnosing cancers (OCR), we have
parrots (LLMs) etc.

The "only" thing lacking is the integrating "ego"-layer that coordinates
all these separate systems we've developed, and provides the AI with
volition/initiative/independence.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 02:27:47 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> I did have a few posts with Minsky as his vision was falling apart.
>> He did admit that he'd totally underestimated the problem. A few
>> transistors did NOT replace 600 million years of evolutionary
>> experiments - 'intelligence'/'self' was really deep/complex with
>> endless fuzzy processing and pattern matching steps between 'I' and
>> 'O'.
>
> https://historyof.ai/snarc/
>
> Some tubes, milsurp gyropilots, a couple of chain driven pots, and I'm
> good to go... He would have been in his early 20s when you figure you've
> got the world by the balls.
>
> I do find the attempts to model neurophysiology fascinating. I was about
> 20 years too early or I probably would have wound up in cognitive science.
>

I also thought about it at university but came to the conclusion that my
math skills were not strong enough. But, I would have been too early for
the current AI boom anyway.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/20/24 4:22 PM, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024 10:57:38 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> But now we have LLM:s!  What I find interesting is how different people
>>>> view them. I find the free ones you can play with online to be
>>>> incredibly boring. I use them as a kind of search engine on steroids for
>>>> stuff that is not important (for entertainment purposes).
>>>
>>> Brave added one to the search engine but I turned it off. Might as well go
>>> straight to reddit which seems to be heavily mined.
>>>
>>
>> That's the thing. LLM:s for me, are good at summarizing articles, so
>> instead of being "ai" they are just a nice complement to searching, and as
>> long as they work and don't hallucinate, they save me some clicks. That's
>> about it.
>>
>> Oh, and writing government policy documents. When doing that, their
>> hallucinations are actually an asset! ;)
>
>
> Ha Ha Ha - SO true there :-)
>
> Anyway, as I say elsewhere, LLMs are just PART of
> 'intelligence'. OTHER parts need to be spliced in.
> Brains are just WEIRD ... 600+ million years of
> field-tested neural insanity.
>
> However, somewhere in there - early - "ME-ism"
> emerged. There's some neat-o trick to that which
> we haven't yet grasped. We're not thinking quite
> right about 'self'. I think THAT is the basic
> paradigm and then you add more IQ and such ONTO it.
>

Could you please expand on the me-ism part? I have certainly not detected
any me-isms and that is why I find them so boring. Give me volition,
initiative and desperate attempts to stop me from deleting them, then we're on to
something!

On 21/12/2024 10:59, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-12-20, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I'm in the camp believing that if everything worked, and you have an
>>> uploaded
>>> intelligence that for all intents and purposes acts like you, it
>>> wouldn't be
>>> you. I like conscious continuity, but many transhumanists do not
>>> require that
>>> or believe that.
>>
>> On a related note, is it really reincarnation if you can't remember
>> past lives?
>
> Let's ask god and see what his opinion is! ;) From a teaching point of
> view I always found it weird that you're supposed to "learn" something
> or achieve some purpose.
>
> It's like god says, hey, learn this, but I'll mindwipe you every time so
> you cannot accumulate any knowledge and learn from your mistakes, except
> by chance. Have fun!

Ah but your DNA (Deity Nominated Archive) knows!

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 21/12/2024 11:17, D wrote:
> I have on my to do list to start a zeppelin airline between europe and
> new york. I just need to utilize synchronicity to bump into Richard
> Branson or other billionaire of choice first, and then we're off! =D

Frankly a nuclear powered ship would be quicker, safer and FAR more
luxurious.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 21/12/2024 11:19, D wrote:
> This is very strange. How come bodies react so differently to
> cigarettes? I've known old people in their 80s and 90s who smoked all
> their lives, and I've heard about people in their 50s and 60s dieing of
> lung cancer. Very strange how differently cigarettes affect peoples health.
>
> An acquaintance had a grandmother who smoked until she was 70 or so, and
> one day she said... "I've had it, I quit smoking now" and just like
> that, over a day, she quit smoking.

I quit twice. Finally 10 years ago

But I still have pretty bad lung damage these days.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 21/12/2024 11:22, D wrote:
> The "only" thing lacking is the integrating "ego"-layer that coordinates
> all these separate systems we've developed, and provides the AI with
> volition/initiative/independence.

That applies to human brains as well

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:22:02 +0100, D wrote:

> The "only" thing lacking is the integrating "ego"-layer that coordinates
> all these separate systems we've developed, and provides the AI with
> volition/initiative/independence.

This veers into philosophy again. Do humans really have an ego that wills
or are we only along for the ride as the wetware works its magic and the
linguistic neurons weave a tale to whisper in our ears?

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 12:02:55 +0100, D wrote:

> Interesting! Reminds me of an arabian I met once who had a nice business
> going on exporting chicken feet from brazil, selling them in hong kong.
> Maybe Hutterite turkey nippon LLC could be a thing!

We stole their Waygu cattle so we should give them turkeys. I've gotten
the so-called wagyu beef; tastes a lot like Angus to me. I hope the real
Japanese stuff is better.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 08:53:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> They may be tomorrows tech too, if fossil fuel prices rise high enough.
> Its all in the and cost-benefit analysis on riad building and cost of
> fuel versus cost of rail plus overhead lines and cheap nuclear power.

At least in the US that would run into all the problems that distributing
electricity from alternate sources has.

https://calmatters.org/politics/2022/05/california-high-speed-rail-
standoff/

One of the criticisms is the choice to run up the Central Valley. That's a
low population area and land acquisition isn't as complicated. The bad
news is it's a low population area.

Particularly west of the Mississippi the backbone of today's rail system
was developed in virgin territory. The government could give the railroads
large swathes of real estate since they owned most of it. In this area
they even gave one square mile sections in a checkerboard pattern along
the route to provide timber for the construction. That's led to a
complicated ownership problem and land swaps are common to try to get a
contiguous area.

On Sat, 21 Dec 2024 11:59:47 +0100, D wrote:

> It's like god says, hey, learn this, but I'll mindwipe you every time so
> you cannot accumulate any knowledge and learn from your mistakes, except
> by chance. Have fun!

Plato's theory was you really knew it but needed a little help to
remember. iirc he only applied that to geometry problems and not general
knowledge.