On 19/12/2024 18:02, D wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
>>> Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
>>
>> "Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
>>
>> Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
>> Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look
>> at.
>
> And probably more sheep!

Of the 4 legged variety, assuredly. And as we discussed, very good eating

--
"Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will
let them."

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 15:35:57 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 19/12/2024 15:01, D wrote:
>>> Manchester was nice, but it was raining all the time.
>>
>> "Canada is all right, just not for the *whole* weekend" :-)
>>
>> Stuff Manchester, It always rains.
>> Do do Ireland and Wales, but at leasts they have nice greenery to look
>> at.
>
> People in the US of Irish descent have some compulsion to return to the
> 'Auld Sod'. After a friend returned I asked him how it was. 'Green! It
> should be green. It rains all the fucking time!'
>
> I can only speculate why my people left Germany. There was no family lore
> about the old country and no one had an interest in returning. That's not
> to say they weren't proud of their ethnicity.
>

Hmm... was it around 1940:ish? ;)

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 16:28:55 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
>>
>> Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
>> theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter (to
>> prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the train
>> with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
>
> I wondered about that. I haven't taken a train in over 40 years. I would
> have to drive 135 miles to get to a passenger train station.
>

Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
moving train!

On 19/12/2024 18:07, D wrote:
>

>
> Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
> moving train!

Not really possible in the UK.

Most trains have doors that can only be opened by the driver, and most
railways are fenced off from roads...

...when I was about 7, two twins used to travel by rail. One of them was
leaning out of the door window when he other one opened it for a prank.

Killed instantly. we never heard or saw either of them again.
That carriage style was retired about 10 years later

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:46:52 +0100, D wrote:

> I always thought about starting a mega-church. Seems like a nice
> business!
> I wonder if the time has passed, or if there are any fairly recent mega
> churches started by some elite psychologist?

There isn't enough population to really go mega but a church I pass on the
way to town has aspirations. It sends out colorful postcards and has
signboards on its property promoting activities.

https://crosspointmt.com/plan-a-visit

They don't go in for quantity but my friend who kept track of locals said
when they built a new church the Slavic Pentacostals wanted to have the
biggest church in town in terms of square feet. I drive by and it
sometimes has a well filled parking lot. They are low key but there are a
surprising number of Slavs in town, mostly Russians I think.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:45:33 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

> On one of our RV trips to Montana and the Pacific Nortwest we visited
> the National Bison Range north of Missoula. The road winds around and
> over some pretty good hills. High up on one of the hills is a roadside
> sign saying words to the effect of: "you are looking over the Mission
> Valley to the southern Mission Mountains. 15,000 years ago, you would be
> looking over a vast lake, probably with floating icebergs." Quite
> impressive; the valley was hu-u-ge.

Flathead Lake is supposed to be the largest freshwater lake west of the
Mississippi leaving out Alaska but it's only a shadow of its former self.
there is a rest area on 93 south of St. Ignatius before you drop down into
the Mission Valley and I often stop there to take in the view.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_Mountains#/media/
File:Mission_Mountains_National_Bison_Range_Montana.jpg

I haven't been to the Bison Range in a few years. I've got the Golden Age
pass that used to work but they gave the range back to the Salish and
Kootenai Tribe two years ago and I don't know what they charge. I do know
I used to get the reservation recreation permit when it was $10 but they
bumped that to $100. I've got plenty of other places to recreate than the
rez.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:56:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Probably too much mammoth meat in the diet...

Yeah, the experts recently concluded the environmentally sensitive Native
American ate all the megafauna in North America before starting on the
smaller stuff.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:54:20 +0100, D wrote:

> Yes... it is the weirdness and the symbology that appeals to me! =)

That's what I like about 'Jungfrukällan'. I prefer Ingeri to the sweet
little Christian and as Töre agonizes over killing the bastards I'm
thinking 'get on with it.'

I haven't seen the remake but 'The Last House on the Left' was a '70s low
budget horror film that updated the story.

>
>> Have you seen 'Kristin Lavransdatter'? I was reminded of it because of
>> Liv Ullmann.
>
> No, never seen or read. But I think there is a famous cheese brand from
> Gudbrandsdalen, maybe, it does ring a bell!

It's very famous -- in Norway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristin_Lavransdatter_(film)

It's three hours which is the kiss of death in this market since the era
where films like 'Gone With the Wind' had intermissions. I thought I would
watch it in two sessions but wound up staying up past my bedtime. Ullmann
was adamant that she needed three hours and refused to cut it.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 19/12/2024 16:28, Rich wrote:
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
>>
>> Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
>> theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
>> (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
>> train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
>>
> Pretty much the same in Europe except you may need to show passports
> when crossing some national boundaries.

Assuming any of the "train routes" the US does have enter either Mexico
or Canada, I'd assume we would have to do the same here. But within
the lower 48, there's no "state border checkpoints" between states.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:01:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Well some folks will always dream of 'racial purity' till they get their
> DNA analysed.

99.8% European, 96.1% Northwestern European. 23andMe at one point decided
everybody had to have sub-Saharan genes <= 0.1%. Then there is 0.1%
unassigned. Wouldn't want anybody claiming racial purity, would we?

They group French & German but only show Baden-Württemberg as the best
match, followed by Bavaria which is consistent with what I know of my
family.

British % Irish is also combined at 1.2%, although the match is to County
Limerick. Then there's 3.7% Eastern European but they don't break that
down to any specific area. Must have been a Hun in the woodpile.

Pretty boring and a lot of it is pure guesswork.

>
> I dread to think where my ancestors were from.

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
>>
>> Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
>> theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
>> (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
>> train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
>
> This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
> where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3 course
> meal as well? =D
>
> Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old, plastic
> wrapped sandwich? ;)

That largely depends on the 'ticket class' one purchases and/or the
actual route one takes. For the "auto-train" between Orlando Fla. and
DC the coach seats have access to the "swedish version" and/or whatever
one wishes to carry on-board.

For the "sleeper cabin" tickets on the same train (of which there's
only about 20 or so available per train) those come with dinners in the
'dining car' where one can sit at a table (more similar to a "diner
table" than a 5-star table) and get, technically, a three course meal.
Overall reasonable food, although limited selection (due to being "on a
train...").

For the "tourist train" across the great plains and up into the Rockies
(who's main purpose seems to be many days of very senic views from the
train windows) I think the "sales material" shows dining car fare for
most passengers. Never having ridden it I can't say for sure.

For the 'commuting trains' that run up and down the northeast corridor
(DC/Philly/NY/etc.) there's only the basic "old plastic wrapped
sandwich" option, but as one's only on those for a few hours at most
that's no big deal (better fare is available at the destination from
many local restaurants).

On 2024-12-19, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 10:26:17 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Er no. And the vomiting is absent if you drink the urine of someone or
>> something - reindeer will do - that has eaten the shroom.
>
> That was the original trickle down effect. Hopefully it worked better than
> it ever did in economics.

I've always said that the problem with trickle-down
economics is that most of what trickles down is yellow.

That's why the people at the bottom are known as "peons".

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?

Some people like to travel by train because it combines
the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:50:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I cannot recall that in that book. Nor can I recall that being anything
> normal in European boatbuilding of open sea vessels

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_keel
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twin_keel#/media/File:Twin_keel_3.jpg

> The atlantic coasts have extreme tidal ranges. But the Baltic and
> Mediterranean do not

Bathtub effect. The Bay of Fundy is the end of the bathtub.

On 2024-12-19, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> For the "tourist train" across the great plains and up into the Rockies
> (who's main purpose seems to be many days of very senic views from the
> train windows) I think the "sales material" shows dining car fare for
> most passengers. Never having ridden it I can't say for sure.

I haven't ridden a "tourist train" either, but our Rocky Mountaineer
is apparently very good. And _very_ expensive.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 2024-12-19, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 19/12/2024 16:28, Rich wrote:
>>
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
>>>
>>> Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
>>> theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
>>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
>>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
>>> (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
>>> train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
>>>
>> Pretty much the same in Europe except you may need to show passports
>> when crossing some national boundaries.
>
> Assuming any of the "train routes" the US does have enter either Mexico
> or Canada, I'd assume we would have to do the same here. But within
> the lower 48, there's no "state border checkpoints" between states.

Out here on the Wet Coast, Amtrak runs a train up through Bellingham
and across the border to Vancouver. We crossed the border on it. Once.
When we got to Vancouver we had to wait for customs to clear everyone,
car by car. Naturally, we were on the last car, and by the time we were
cleared it was well past midnight and most public transit had shut down.

On our next trip we drove to Bellingham, cleared customs on the road,
and left our car in a cheap long-term lot across the street from the
station. Much faster.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

Charlie Gibbs wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On 2024-12-19, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
>
> Some people like to travel by train because it combines
> the slowness of a car with the cramped public exposure
> of an airplane. -- Dennis Miller

My dad took us (I and my sister) on train trips. I remember in the
dining car being asked if I wanted a Continental Breakfast. My kid's
mind imagined a breakfast feast, with eggs and sausage or bacon.

Bleh, it was a pastry. :-(

Similar with my mother. She asked if I wanted a "pine float". I
imagined a nice soda with ice cream and whipped cream.... It
was a toothpick floating on a glass of water. She cackled.

ObLinux:

Grepping for FLT_MAX, partial list:

/usr/include/values.h:#define MAXFLOAT FLT_MAX
/usr/include/values.h:#define FMAXEXP FLT_MAX_EXP

Now look for defines of FLT_MAX.

--
The difference between reality and unreality is that reality has so
little to recommend it.
-- Allan Sherman

rbowman wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 09:56:45 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Probably too much mammoth meat in the diet...
>
> Yeah, the experts recently concluded the environmentally sensitive Native
> American ate all the megafauna in North America before starting on the
> smaller stuff.

Hmmmmmmmmm...

https://www.nps.gov/articles/000/what-happened-to-the-bison.htm

Beginning in the 1860s, conflict raged on the prairies as the US Army
attempted to subdue the Plains Indians in order to make way for white
settlers and railroad lines. Federal officials recognized the importance of
bison on the Plains, where Native nations had yet to be forced onto
reservations. In 1873. the Secretary of the Interior noted that “[t]he
civilization of the Indian is impossible while buffalo remain on the
plains”; following this logic, the Army provided free ammunition to hide
hunters, who brought bison to the brink of extinction. By 1894, Yellowstone
National Park hosted the only known wild herd in the United States.
Ironically, the US Army—which managed Yellowstone—would play an important
role in the return of the bison a few decades later.

Includes a picture: Photograph 1892 of a [huge] pile of American bison skulls
waiting to be ground for fertilizer.

--
Old Barlow was a crossing-tender at a junction where an express train
demolished an automobile and its occupants. Being the chief witness, his
testimony was vitally important. Barlow explained that the night was dark,
and he waved his lantern frantically, but the driver of the car paid
no attention to the signal.
The railroad company won the case, and the president of the company
complimented the old-timer for his story. "You did wonderfully," he said,
"I was afraid you would waver under testimony."
"No sir," exclaimed the senior, "but I sure was afraid that durned
lawyer was gonna ask me if my lantern was lit."

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 18:03:14 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Irish left because it was better than dying of starvation in a massively
> overpopulated country.
> Many N Europeans left because they were simply too pious to be
> tolerated. As where the original pilgrim fathers.
> English left because they were second sons and had no estates, but they
> had enough to buy them in the Americas.
> Italians probably left to escape poverty, like the Irish.

Technically they weren't Germans since the country didn't exist but there
has been a German presence in the US from almost the beginning. It didn't
last long but Ben Franklin published 'Philadelphische Zeitung' in 1732,
the first German language newspaper in the colonies.

A couple of events may have resulted in a surge. If you were on the wrong
side in 1848 a sea voyage would look good. Bismarck's KulturKampf in
Prussia could persuade Catholics that there were greener pastures. The
stubborn ones formed the Centre party.

In the US the Germans and Irish worked well together. The Germans took
care of business while the Irish provided the politicians and cops. That
seemed to apply in Europe too, given Roger Casement's little scheme.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:06:59 +0100, D wrote:

> Hmm... was it around 1940:ish?

Way before that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans

I definitely know one great-something grandfather fought in the Civil War.
As far as I could trace back through fragmentary records another was
around during the Revolutionary War. The source said he moved out in the
country since he was a Loyalist.

It wasn't their best work but Orson Welles directed a movie, 'The
Stranger' with Edward G. Robinson. Robinson is an agent hunting a Nazi war
criminal. The criminal has integrated into a small town and doesn't
trigger suspicion. Over the dinner table the criminal says Germans are a
threat to the world and the Robinson character counters saying Germans
like Marx made a positive contribution. The Nazi says that Marx was a Jew
and can't possibly a German, blowing his cover nicely.

The US wasn't all that welcoming in that era unless you were some sort of
rock star.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/voyage-of-the-st-louis

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 20:05:20 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On our next trip we drove to Bellingham, cleared customs on the road,
> and left our car in a cheap long-term lot across the street from the
> station. Much faster.

Customs can be fun. For a while Canada and the US was having a pissing
contest over the salmon fishery and it seemed to trickle down to the
customs booths.

I only had a problem once. I was trying to avoid a busy station by
crossing back into the US at an out of the way checkpoint. They were bored
and I was the only fresh meat they'd seen in a while. I had a couple of
ice cube relays in my toolbox that iirc were made in Japan. Since I didn't
have the necessary papers to show I'd bought them in the US they charged
me duty.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:06:04 +0100, D wrote:

> It's the ponytail. Always the ponytail.

This town is overflowing with old men with beards and ponytails. I don't
know how many times an utter stranger has come up and started a
conversation assuming they knew me. We all look the same.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:07:53 +0100, D wrote:

> Train stations are for nerds! Real men jump from a moving car to the
> moving train!

Most of the trains that come through here are coal cars. Not the best of
accommodations. We do have two passenger stations that are being used for
other purposes. Apparently 'if you build it they'll come' doesn't apply to
trains.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:03:59 +0100, D wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> I have contemplated ditching planes for trains, but I don't think the
>>> result would be much better. Perhaps less security theater?
>>
>> Here in the US, what little "train service" we have has zero security
>> theater. You arrive, walk in with your luggage rolling behind you, and
>> no one checks you over, pats you down, feels you up, or otherwise does
>> anything "security check" wise. You show your ticket at the counter
>> (to prove you purchased a ticket), go sit and wait, walk out to the
>> train with your luggage when it is time, and climb aboard.
>
> This is very promising! I imagine they have a very beautiful restaurant
> where you can enjoy a glass of champagne, and perhaps a delicious 3
> course meal as well? =D
>
> Or maybe it is the swedish version, where you get to enjoy an old,
> plastic wrapped sandwich? ;)

If you're very, very lucky. There is a group in Indiana that had restored
an old steam engine and takes it out for a spin every now and then for
fund raisers They also have period cars and volunteers do serve beverages
and meals. As a bonus the destination was Peru IN and the Circus Hall of
Fame.

A couple of times I took Amtrak from Ft. Wayne to Chicago. It was a
difference experience. Amtrak on the Boston to DC corridor gets a lot of
love; other areas not so much.

On Thu, 19 Dec 2024 19:45:50 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

> For the "tourist train" across the great plains and up into the Rockies
> (who's main purpose seems to be many days of very senic views from the
> train windows) I think the "sales material" shows dining car fare for
> most passengers. Never having ridden it I can't say for sure.

Sometimes you get more adventure than you paid for.

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/26/1040819353/amtrak-derailment-montana-
investigation