On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:36:27 +0100, D wrote:

> Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood as
> well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now illegal in
> sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's inside, running
> around on the streets of central stockholm without supervision, smoke
> bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from where discrete and hidden
> small shops.

Most fireworks were illegal where I grew up but we had them anyway. Much
later I brought some back from a trip to the south and wound up arrested
for possession of explosives and deadly weapons in my home town by a cop I
went to school with. My future brother in law was a silver tongued devil
that could turn any situation to shit. Years later he was killed by
lightning so he may have pissed the Gods off too.

I was a big kid and the liquor stores weren't too particular. As a joke
one year I bought one of those nip bottles of gin for a Mothers Day gift.
That led to an interrogation of where I got it.

One problem of being a kid in a town of about 2000 is everybody knows
everybody. Pill something really outrageous and the news would get home
before you did.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:40:04 +0100, D wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
>>
>> I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
>>
>> I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking.
>> Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea
>> of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
>>
>> One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
>> communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
>>
>> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
>> trees-180968084/
>>
>> There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
>>
>> https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
>>
>> Sometimes for the better?
>>
>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-
on-
>> radio-waves/
>>
>> It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
>> suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
>> amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
>
> Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
> plants can be measured and analyzed?

Prove? Urban legends are not susceptible to proof.

> Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
> for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
> data would be painful though.

Years ago I played around with amateur packet radio. 9600 was possible
with more sophisticated hardware but the local club never made it past
1200. It was usable. Part of my introduction to Linux was it supported AX.
25.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX.25

I still have the TNC but interest in it dropped off rapidly. For that
matter many people who used 2 meter handitalkies left when cheap
cellphones came along. There still is some interest in HF digital modes
but the ham population is aging out. There still is a lot of ham support
for Linux.

https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 10:51:23 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into
> the wild, give the customer a replacement.

As I have mentioned my engineering statistics course devoted a lot of time
to determining that point. QA is expensive.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:46:08 +0100, D wrote:

> Yes! And add to that, all the reporting to the tax authorities, the
> social security department, and then there's some kind of new EU law
> that stipulates I have to send statistics to some government department,
> I don't even know which one. That is also handled by the accountant. I
> feel that if I were to do that myself, it would take 10-15 hours per
> month, so I'll happily (well not happily, but it is worth it) pay 400
> EUR to save me 10-15 hours of boring and useless work.

If you're self employed in the US you have to file quarterly. I suppose
that helps to keep you from getting too far afield. For employees the
Social Security payroll tax is 6.2% and the employer also pays 6.2%. Self
emplyed you eat the whole 12.4%.

Sometimes there is friction between direct employees and contractors when
the direct people figure the contractors are raking in the big bucks. They
fail to consider the double dip on SS, the lack of health insurance, and
stable employment. That comes as a surprise if they decide to go out on
their own. I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance
which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance plan
may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
> available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
> and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be
> willing to join him in a startup.

A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
while it lasted.

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
>>> generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me
>>> hope, but the vast majority are quite sad.
>>
>> I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car
>> in their escape pods. My preferred location was standing on the
>> passenger side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the
>> '51 Chevy so I could see where we were going. The gray paint of the
>> dash had two hand prints where it had been worn down to the red
>> primer. Probably red lead, come to think of it.
>>
>> If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one. Some kids didn't
>> survive for one reason or the other but life went on.
>>
>
> Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood
> as well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now
> illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's
> inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without
> supervision, smoke bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from
> where discrete and hidden small shops.
>
> Being young today sounds so extremely boring in comparison!

Since "they" don't have a basis for comparison, "they" won't know just
how boring their childhood presently is.

On the other hand, is it any wonder why 'doom scrolling' on social
media is the entertainment for much of the children growing up. When
all the other 'fun' stuff is removed in the name of safety, doom
scrolling on social media is about all (besides reading a book) that is
left for them to entertain themselves with.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
>> royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few
>> politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
>> out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
>> camera.
>
> There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The Norwegians
> executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell everyone
> was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European
> countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone although some
> rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so it was
> difficult to 'colloborate'.
>

This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of
neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot of
swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to start
if you ever meet any swedes! ;)

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:42:21 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> It still happens from time to time. Didn't one member of the british
>> royal house dress as a nazi at a masquerade? I also know that a few
>> politicians here and there from the sweden democrats have been kicked
>> out for having nazi tattoos that at one time or other were caught on
>> camera.
>
> There is a lot of history that some would like to forget. The Norwegians
> executed Quisling as their sacrificial lamb and to hear them tell everyone
> was in the resistance. France, Sweden, Finland and most other European
> countries developed amnesia without the need to shoot anyone although some
> rehabilitation might have been necessary. The US wasn't occupied so it was
> difficult to 'colloborate'.
>

Oh, and the swedish socialist party was very much into eugenics. Also
something that they are working hard to bury in some distant, dusty
corridor of history.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:36:27 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood as
>> well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now illegal in
>> sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's inside, running
>> around on the streets of central stockholm without supervision, smoke
>> bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from where discrete and hidden
>> small shops.
>
> Most fireworks were illegal where I grew up but we had them anyway. Much
> later I brought some back from a trip to the south and wound up arrested
> for possession of explosives and deadly weapons in my home town by a cop I
> went to school with. My future brother in law was a silver tongued devil

Really!? Sounds like quite an asshole! =(

> that could turn any situation to shit. Years later he was killed by
> lightning so he may have pissed the Gods off too.

This does tend to happen sometimes. Perhaps a proof of gods existence? On
the other hand, Putin is still alive and kicking. Gods ways are
mysterious!

> I was a big kid and the liquor stores weren't too particular. As a joke
> one year I bought one of those nip bottles of gin for a Mothers Day gift.
> That led to an interrogation of where I got it.
>
> One problem of being a kid in a town of about 2000 is everybody knows
> everybody. Pill something really outrageous and the news would get home
> before you did.

My mother grew up in a town of less than 1000 and it was not so fun being
a teenager. She moved to Stockholm when she was 18 and was very happy with
her choice.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:40:04 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
>>>
>>> I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
>>>
>>> I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking.
>>> Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea
>>> of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
>>>
>>> One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
>>> communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
>>>
>>> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
>>> trees-180968084/
>>>
>>> There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
>>>
>>> https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
>>>
>>> Sometimes for the better?
>>>
>>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-
> on-
>>> radio-waves/
>>>
>>> It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
>>> suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
>>> amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
>>
>> Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
>> plants can be measured and analyzed?
>
> Prove? Urban legends are not susceptible to proof.

True! Why let proof get in the way of a nice conspiracy! ;)

>> Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
>> for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
>> data would be painful though.
>
> Years ago I played around with amateur packet radio. 9600 was possible
> with more sophisticated hardware but the local club never made it past
> 1200. It was usable. Part of my introduction to Linux was it supported AX.
> 25.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX.25
>
> I still have the TNC but interest in it dropped off rapidly. For that
> matter many people who used 2 meter handitalkies left when cheap
> cellphones came along. There still is some interest in HF digital modes
> but the ham population is aging out. There still is a lot of ham support
> for Linux.
>
> https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/

This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are popular.
I also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I think in
some countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.

Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now, with
tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch a mild
itch.

Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy a
gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements, safe
storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(

Only way is to 3d print or build something myself.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:46:08 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Yes! And add to that, all the reporting to the tax authorities, the
>> social security department, and then there's some kind of new EU law
>> that stipulates I have to send statistics to some government department,
>> I don't even know which one. That is also handled by the accountant. I
>> feel that if I were to do that myself, it would take 10-15 hours per
>> month, so I'll happily (well not happily, but it is worth it) pay 400
>> EUR to save me 10-15 hours of boring and useless work.
>
> If you're self employed in the US you have to file quarterly. I suppose
> that helps to keep you from getting too far afield. For employees the
> Social Security payroll tax is 6.2% and the employer also pays 6.2%. Self
> emplyed you eat the whole 12.4%.

Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am
now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund your
own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!

> Sometimes there is friction between direct employees and contractors when
> the direct people figure the contractors are raking in the big bucks. They
> fail to consider the double dip on SS, the lack of health insurance, and
> stable employment. That comes as a surprise if they decide to go out on
> their own. I carried a high deductible ($5000) medical disaster insurance
> which was relatively inexpensive back then. Today a company insurance plan
> may be a major attraction, particularly for people with families.

This is the truth and the reason why I do not have employees, only
contractors. It would be _waaaaaay_ too expensive to have employees. I
actually offered one of my guys a job once, but he turned it down. Then he
stabbed me in the back and stole one of my customers, but that's a
different story! ;)

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>> My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
>> available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
>> and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be
>> willing to join him in a startup.
>
> A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
> while it lasted.
>

Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the government
look and feel like a startup with hipsters!

A complete mystery to me that they are still around.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
>>>> generation. There are always exceptions, those are what give me
>>>> hope, but the vast majority are quite sad.
>>>
>>> I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car
>>> in their escape pods. My preferred location was standing on the
>>> passenger side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the
>>> '51 Chevy so I could see where we were going. The gray paint of the
>>> dash had two hand prints where it had been worn down to the red
>>> primer. Probably red lead, come to think of it.
>>>
>>> If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one. Some kids didn't
>>> survive for one reason or the other but life went on.
>>>
>>
>> Yes... bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood
>> as well. For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now
>> illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's
>> inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without
>> supervision, smoke bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from
>> where discrete and hidden small shops.
>>
>> Being young today sounds so extremely boring in comparison!
>
> Since "they" don't have a basis for comparison, "they" won't know just
> how boring their childhood presently is.

This is incorrect. "They" can talk with older people, look at old movies,
tv-clips, etc. Plenty of basis for comparison. It is anecdotal, but I did
so myself, when a teenager and came to the conclusion that there was
waaaay more fun to be had 10-20 years earlier than when I was young.

> On the other hand, is it any wonder why 'doom scrolling' on social
> media is the entertainment for much of the children growing up. When
> all the other 'fun' stuff is removed in the name of safety, doom
> scrolling on social media is about all (besides reading a book) that is
> left for them to entertain themselves with.

This is a very good point! I read today that a 21 day ban on smartphones
in UK schools resulted in better psychological health/well being, and
better sleep, and a 3% memory improvement.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:12:03 +0100, D wrote:

> This is incorrect. "They" can talk with older people, look at old
> movies,
> tv-clips, etc. Plenty of basis for comparison. It is anecdotal, but I
> did so myself, when a teenager and came to the conclusion that there was
> waaaay more fun to be had 10-20 years earlier than when I was young.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Paul_Smith

I read 'Where Did You Go? Out. What Did You Do? Nothing.' and 'How to Do
Nothing With Nobody All Alone By Yourself' as a kid. He compared the '50s
with the '20s bit I didn't feel underprivileged.

https://tinhouse.com/how-to-do-nothing-with-nobody-all-alone-by-yourself-
an-excerpt/

That's a short excerpt. I did build both the spool tank and the button
buzz saw. There were also things to do with horse chestnuts. There were
also other projects that Smith left out.

https://www.instructables.com/Mini-Matchstick-Gun-The-Clothespin-Pocket-
Pistol/

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:04:03 +0100, D wrote:

> My mother grew up in a town of less than 1000 and it was not so fun
> being a teenager. She moved to Stockholm when she was 18 and was very
> happy with her choice.

It could be claustrophobic I guess but I enjoyed having plenty of open
space to ramble. The town had an elementary school but was too small for a
high school so we had to go to the either the public or Catholic high
school in the city. That was, er, educational.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:09:13 +0100, D wrote:

> Ahh... the land of the free! Try 31% in sweden or around 20% where I am
> now. Oh, and the 31% has a cap, so you only get part of that to fund
> your own retirement. The rest goes to happy arabians!

There is a yearly maximum for the SS tax, which gets raised frequently. It
was nice to max out and have a few weeks without the deduction at the end
of the year. The current cap is $168,600 so I would guess the majority of
the workers don't see those bonus weeks anymore.

Of course your benefits are taxed. Some states don't tax SS benefits but
this one does so both the Feds and the state have their hands out. Then if
you have an IRA or other retirement account there is a required minimum
distribution yearly which is taxed when you hit 73.

Between the assorted taxes it isn't as bad as Sweden but they're working
on it. Somebody has to buy tanks for the Ukraine.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:06:44 +0100, D wrote:

> This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are
> popular. I also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I
> think in some countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.

I've heard they're a good value for the price.
>
> Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now,
> with tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch
> a mild itch.
>
> Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy
> a gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements,
> safe storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(
>
> Only way is to 3d print or build something myself. I've got an Icom dash
mount and a Yaesu handheld that I bought years ago. Sometimes I'll see if
anything is happening but generally there isn't much on 2M. I renewed my
license this year so I'm good for another 10 years. That's for the amateur
bands. The citizens band is still unregulated but I think the thrill of
that wore off a couple of decades ago. There us an unlicensed Family Radio
Service but the radios have an effective range of a mile or two and can't
use repeaters.

In this state you fill out a 4473, the form Hunter Biden lied on, they
phone the transaction into NICS, and you are good to go in about 10
minutes. No other paperwork is required.

I was surprised a couple of weeks ago to find that instead of a paper form
they hand you a tablet to enter the data. There are 20 questions. The
answer to the first, are you an American citizen, is yes, all the rest are
no. The one that tripped up Biden is a trap in this state. I don't use it
but marijuana is legal in this state but illegal on a Federal basis. I
assume a little bit of lying goes on.

There is a permit for concealed carry but a couple of years ago it was
made legal without any permit. Even then it was 'shall issue' meaning
unless there was some disqualification you paid your $50 and got a permit.
In states like California unless you're Nancy Pelosi you're not going to
get a permit.

On 12/14/24 5:45 AM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> 10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
>>> question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
>>
>> The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
>
> Let's cross that bridge when we get to it. ;)

That's gonna be just a few years ....

Demand for more and more and more computing power
is going straight up the chart.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:01:26 +0100, D wrote:

> This is the truth! Sweden most definitely collaborated under the flag of
> neutrality. Not a very honorable way, but I am convinced it saved a lot
> of swedes, at the cost of a lot of other people. This is a fun topic to
> start if you ever meet any swedes!

I think it was a novel by Larrson, Åsa, not that other one, that worked in
some not-quite-rehabilitated people.

On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 23:01:58 +0100, D wrote:

> Oh, and the swedish socialist party was very much into eugenics. Also
> something that they are working hard to bury in some distant, dusty
> corridor of history.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell

"Three generations of imbeciles are enough"

https://womanisrational.uchicago.edu/2022/09/21/margaret-sanger-the-
duality-of-a-ambitious-feminist-and-racist-eugenicist/

There are facets of Margaret Sanger, the patron saint of Planned
parenthood, that the left would rather forget.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2004/feb/06/race.usa

It's a Guardian review of Black's book but I've read the same in other
sources. Besides the eugenics programs of the '20s and '30s US immigration
law heavily favored northern Europeans. They threw that out in '65 so here
we are now.

On 12/15/24 5:51 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 15/12/2024 04:57, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> "seems close enough"
>>    is NOT good enough. Planes, spacecraft, bridges, huge
>>    buildings, medical implants - GOTTA refine with the
>>    hard-core/hard-math tools.
>
> I think you would be aghast at how "seems good enough" guides most
> engineering design.
>
> No-one accurately measures every single component that goes into a design.
>
> At best they do a full test on the final product.

This is kind of in line with what I've both known and heard.

But it SUCKS when applied to 'critical structures'.

Alas, I guess profit/loss comes into the picture ...

> There is always room for the black swan unit where all the tolerances
> were exactly the wrong way.
>
> In general it is cheaper to simply scrap that one, or if it escapes into
> the wild, give the customer a replacement.
>
> The development algorithm of the racing Cosworth V8 was "remove metal
> till it breaks, then put that bit back again".
>
> And we can only calculate what we thought of. Some failure modes are
> completely unexpected.
>
> Some of the most durable civil engineering was done by Victorian
> engineers who were not able to do the calculations. Their conservative
> over-enginering resulted in structures that stand good even to day.
>
> Admittedly their failures are long gone :-( (Tay bridge, any one?)

Very true that they "over-built" in the 1800s. Fails
were usually due to some unrealized design fault, not
the overall-average strength of the structure. Building
on old swamp-land was a common error.

PRE-1800s they also over-built ... but relied too much
on gravity to hold structures together. Most of those
old castles are now piles of rubble. ROMAN stuff - those
tended to be rather good engineering and materials and
a surprising amount - not destroyed intentionally -
still survives.

Note - Incan and some "Cyclopean" Euro constructions were
exceptionally well-engineered - and largely quake resistant.
The TV program idiots claim 'alien' design, which is a huge
insult to our predecessors. When you see them collapsed it
is almost always due to military action, not natural forces.

"When I first came here, this was all swamp. Everyone said
I was daft to build a castle on a swamp, but I built in
all the same, just to show them. It sank into the swamp.
So I built a second one. That sank into the swamp. So I
built a third. That burned down, fell over, then sank
into the swamp. But the fourth one stayed up. And that's
what you're going to get, Lad, the strongest castle
in all of England."

On 12/15/24 1:46 AM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:57:52 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> "Stochastic" basically means "guessing".
>
> Pretty much. For example if you're building a classifier you split your
> labeled data into two chunks, one for training and one for testing. Rinse
> and repeat until the output is good enough. If your image classified
> mistakes a black for a gorilla there will be hell to pay.
>
> In the training process some randomness is often introduced on purpose.
> The problem is local maxima (or minima depending on how you prefer to
> thing). If you picture a three dimensional surface with mountains and
> valleys gradient descent tends to get stuck,
>
> For example, assume you're hiking in mountainous terrain and you algorithm
> is to always head uphill. Sooner or later you'll find yourself at a place
> where all choices are downhill, but it isn't the highest hill around. You
> need to roll the dice to get off it.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulated_annealing
>
> There's a nice little animation if you scroll down a bit.
>
> After training you really hope that the result will be deterministic. You
> don't want the cat to be alive on one run and dead on the next. Or a dog.
>
> Differentiating cats and dogs is one of the 'hello world' projects in ML.
> Sometimes the results aren't what you hoped for. In one sample set the
> dogs tended to be photographed outdoors and the cats indoors. Whatever
> magic went on in training the result was the 'intelligence' was really
> good at sorting outdoor images from indoor ones. It didn't know jack about
> dogs and cats.

Indeed, it's NOT always "easy". Ridiculously simplistic
goal defs lead to ridiculous results.

Yet, even a bug or lizard or chipmunk can figure it all
out almost instantly .......

We're doing something wrong.

On 12/15/24 5:10 PM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 14:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>>
>>> My boss and I looked out and saw that there were no engineer jobs
>>> available in town; LM Ericsson had just closed their US Internet group
>>> and put 300 Internet engineers on the street. So he asked if I would be
>>> willing to join him in a startup.
>>
>> A friend got caught in the Marconi to Ericcson transition. It was fun
>> while it lasted.
>>
>
> Ahh Ericsson... the only company on the planet that makes the government
> look and feel like a startup with hipsters!

Hey - Nordic - a different way of thinking.
Don't be a bigot now :-)

> A complete mystery to me that they are still around.

Because they still have something to offer.

Erlang is still around and used - readily had for
Linux. An unusual paradigm, but you CAN do stuff.

On 12/15/24 5:06 PM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024 11:40:04 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:16:57 +0100, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Fascinating! Thank you for sharing!
>>>>
>>>> I never saw one but there were also ELF transmitters.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremely_low_frequency
>>>>
>>>> I think some of the frequencies are still in use but nobody is talking.
>>>> Imagine what it would be like if humans could directly perceive the sea
>>>> of electromagnetic radiation we live in.
>>>>
>>>> One project I turned down was a botanist with a theory that trees
>>>> communicated via electromagnetic waves. The idea hasn't gone away.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/the-whispering-
>>>> trees-180968084/
>>>>
>>>> There is evidence that EMFs do affect trees though.
>>>>
>>>> https://ehtrust.org/electromagnetic-fields-impact-tree-plant-growth/
>>>>
>>>> Sometimes for the better?
>>>>
>>>> https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519600-500-forest-grows-tall-
>> on-
>>>> radio-waves/
>>>>
>>>> It reminds me of when RF heat sealers were introduced. The folklore
>>>> suggested that women working around them either became sterile or
>>>> amazingly fecund. Humans love their stories.
>>>
>>> Shouldn't it be quite easy to prove? I mean EMF:s can be measured and
>>> plants can be measured and analyzed?
>>
>> Prove? Urban legends are not susceptible to proof.
>
> True! Why let proof get in the way of a nice conspiracy! ;)
>
>>> Latency would be huge, but that never stopped me with my 9600 modem, and
>>> for talking like this, is not a problem. Downloading massive amounts of
>>> data would be painful though.
>>
>> Years ago I played around with amateur packet radio. 9600 was possible
>> with more sophisticated hardware but the local club never made it past
>> 1200. It was usable. Part of my introduction to Linux was it supported
>> AX.
>> 25.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AX.25
>>
>> I still have the TNC but interest in it dropped off rapidly. For that
>> matter many people who used 2 meter handitalkies left when cheap
>> cellphones came along.  There still is some interest in HF digital modes
>> but the ham population is aging out.  There still is a lot of ham support
>> for Linux.
>>
>> https://sourceforge.net/projects/kb1oiq-andysham/
>
> This is sad. I've heard that cheap chinese radios (Baofeng?) are
> popular. I also feel as if this field is perhaps regulated to death? I
> think in some countries there are free bands, but I'm not sure.
>
> Personally, if it was unregulated, I'd at least be curious! But now,
> with tests, and loads of stuff to study, I'd never do it only to scratch
> a mild itch.
>
> Same for me with guns. If they would be unregulated, I'd definitely buy
> a gun! Now with all the licenses, testing, competition requirements,
> safe storage laws etc. I can't really be bothered. =(
>
> Only way is to 3d print or build something myself.

Move to the USA :-)

We have guns out the ass - most people have
several. You can have an arsenal out of a
'Terminator' movie. Yep, there IS some abuse,
but - pop corrected - doesn't seem THAT much
worse than the UK. Almost all abuse is from
GANGS, not Joe Citizens. Any downsides are
compensated by personal rights/autonomy/defense
issues.

But then the UK/EU isn't INTERESTED in individual
and citizen rights/power/safety any more, is it ?
Power to THE STATE - and NOBODY else .......

"But it was all right, everything was all right, the
struggle was finished. He had won the victory over
himself. He loved Big Brother.”

On 12/15/24 5:12 PM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 15 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 23:18:36 +0100, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Children today are over protected, and this is destroying an entire
>>>>> generation.  There are always exceptions, those are what give me
>>>>> hope, but the vast majority are quite sad.
>>>>
>>>> I feel sorry when I see them being loaded into the backseat of a car
>>>> in their escape pods.  My preferred location was standing on the
>>>> passenger side floor with my hands on the solid steel dash of the
>>>> '51 Chevy so I could see where we were going.  The gray paint of the
>>>> dash had two hand prints where it had been worn down to the red
>>>> primer.  Probably red lead, come to think of it.
>>>>
>>>> If bicycle helmets existed I never saw one.  Some kids didn't
>>>> survive for one reason or the other but life went on.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes...  bicycle helmets where completely unknown during my childhood
>>> as well.  For entertainment we had fireworks, firecrackers (now
>>> illegal in sweden), dismantling old electronic waste to see what's
>>> inside, running around on the streets of central stockholm without
>>> supervision, smoke bombs, the occasional beer sold to minors from
>>> where discrete and hidden small shops.
>>>
>>> Being young today sounds so extremely boring in comparison!
>>
>> Since "they" don't have a basis for comparison, "they" won't know just
>> how boring their childhood presently is.
>
> This is incorrect. "They" can talk with older people, look at old
> movies, tv-clips, etc. Plenty of basis for comparison. It is anecdotal,
> but I did so myself, when a teenager and came to the conclusion that
> there was waaaay more fun to be had 10-20 years earlier than when I was
> young.
>
>> On the other hand, is it any wonder why 'doom scrolling' on social
>> media is the entertainment for much of the children growing up.  When
>> all the other 'fun' stuff is removed in the name of safety, doom
>> scrolling on social media is about all (besides reading a book) that is
>> left for them to entertain themselves with.
>
> This is a very good point! I read today that a 21 day ban on smartphones
> in UK schools resulted in better psychological health/well being, and
> better sleep, and a 3% memory improvement.

Today's kiddies are plagued by 'social' and political
BS which constantly tries to twist their brains into
knots. For SM it means PROFIT ... for political interests
it's produced a gen of near-psychotics which can be
twisted around the proverbial finger.

No "good will" here at all.

Hey ... if you can find it ... try a movie entitled
"I Saw The TV Glow" (US title). Fair take on the
new hyper-unstable gen - largely un-rooted in ANY
sort of 'reality'.

Long long back I kinda coined the term "Dali-Ocracy".
That means a faux 'democracy' where it has become
impossible to know what's real ... and thus the
info needed to WORK a democracy is absent. All
is surreal. Conclusions without solid axioms.
Squishy-soft 'reality'.

We're HERE .....