On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 08/12/2024 20:49, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>> On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>> On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
>>>>>> If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
>>>>>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary
>>>>> foundation of thinking.
>>>>>
>>>>> All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or
>>>>> not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not
>>>>> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
>>>>> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>>    Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
>>>>    with the existing physics  :-)
>>>>
>>> Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the  laws, we
>>> actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.
>>
>> If you are interested, Bas van Fraassen probably has some interesting
>> things to add as well. There was also a german guy who wrote something
>> interesting in the 1920s I think on that theme, but for the moment the name
>> does not come back to me.
>>
>
>> Ahh, here we go!
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Philosophy_of_%27As_if%27 .
>>
> Yes. That is exactly what I meant.
>
> Except more so, He argues that if it works, even if its wrong, its OK.
>
> My point goes further. We can never know for sure if its *right* so the
> *only* criteria we can have is that it works.
>
> Which was where Karl Popper came in. He arrived at that point and wanted to
> clarify what separated good science from bullshit.
>
> And pseudo scientists have been trying to shout him down ever since

I think you might enjoy the book The Shaky Game - Einstein, Realism and
the Quantum Theory.

An excerpt...

"Realism is dead. Its death was announced by the neopositivists who
realized that they could accept all the results of science, including all
the members of the scientific zoo, and still declare that the questions
raised by the existence claims of realism were mere pseudo- questions. Its
death was hastened by the debates over the inter- pretation of quantum
theory, where Bohr's nonrealist philosophy was seen to win out over
Einstein's passionate realism. Its death was certified, finally, as the
last two generations of physical scientists turned their backs on realism
and have managed, nevertheless, to do science successfully without it. To
be sure, some recent philo- sophical literature has appeared to pump up
the ghostly shell and to give it new life. I think these efforts will
eventually be seen and understood as the first stage in the process of
mourning, the stage of denial. But I think we shall pass through this
first stage and into that of acceptance, for realism is well and truly
dead, and we have work to get on with, in identifying a suitable
successor."

Let me know if you would like to read more, and I can get you the book in
electronic format (unless you haven't read it already).

On 2024-12-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
>> environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
>> buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
>> shit hits the fan".
>
> An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if
> they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.

Several years ago Microsoft's buzzphrase against Linux was "total cost
of ownership" (TCO). In other words, M$ products cost money, but the
support more than makes up for it. It was amazing how fast evidence
to the contrary piled up. "TCO" disappeared from the M$ marketing
lexicon pretty fast.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:39:51 +0100
> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last
>> time I checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved
>> in the right direction!
>
>> This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce,
>> wifi and decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!
>
> It remains mind-boggling to me how poor power-management/laptop support
> is in the FOSS world, outside of Linux (which gets it mostly by virtue
> of being the proverbial 800-lb. gorilla, relative to the other players.)
> OpenBSD I can understand, those people *exclusively* care about server
> environments, but it's surprising how spotty NetBSD is with it, and
> even moreso something like Haiku which is intended specifically for use
> in a desktop personal-computer context...

This is the truth! I get about 14 hours or so out of my 1 year old Asus
with linux if I really make an effort. FreeBSD when I tested it 1 year ago
looked very promising, but since I did not have a lot of time for testing,
I never maxed it out.

I followed this guide:

https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2018/11/28/the-power-to-serve-freebsd-power-management/
..

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 21:44:32 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 08/12/2024 22:38, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:15:59 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
>>>>
>>>> Not unless you consider various electrochemical processes a dimension.
>>>> There ain't no there there.
>>>>
>>> Well there you are starting with that assumption, so its circular
>>> reasoning.
>>>
>>> 'There ain't no there, there', is pure metaphysical faith.
>>>
>>> I am simply not so sure...
>>>
>>>
>> Well, note the unless. So my interpretation is that the answer is "no"
>> on rbowmans behalf. But I'll let the expert talk, and we'll see. ;)
>
> Not going down the rabbit, or maybe turtle, hole. Poking around in brains
> hasn't found anything but basic neurophysiology, electrochemical
> interaction between the dendrites and axons.

This is the truth, and I completely agree.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
> A_logical_calculus_of_the_ideas_immanent_in_nervous_activity
>
> We've come a long way from that model.
>

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
>>>> I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
>>>> but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
>>>> I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
>>>> close to the strength of it since.
>>>
>>> No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
>>> paranoid experience like the first one.
>>
>> Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
>> do, tell an interestng story.
>
> Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a
> transformative may be predisposed to finding it.
>

This is a very interesting theory! I would _love_ to do that kind of
experiment, tring out some psylocybin on hard core atheists, or even
better, not even telling them what the test is about, and see the reaction
and what they experience.

Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is about
finding god, to compare.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
>>> I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
>>> and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
>>> using his teachings as a way to power starts.
>>>
>>> Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
>>> personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
>>> formalized remains left.
>>
>> Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
>> wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
>> 'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
>> laws to be divine rather than man made?
>
> What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
> laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
> Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....
>
> One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
> as "divine from God" to the tribe members.
>

True. And today we do the same thing with climate change, although the
laws comes from scientists, who represent "the truth" (TM) and may never
be questioned.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:29:58 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> In autumn, the leaves on the ground are out to get you, and in winter,
>> the ice, in spring, it's the stubborn treacherous remains. In summer at
>> least,
>> we are safe!
>
> I'm not a very good passenger. One fall a friend was driving and I didn't
> feel comfortable. Rather than yelling 'Slow down!' I mentioned that wet
> leaves on the road were as treacherous as ice. The hint didn't work and we
> were soon going down the road backwards at about 70 mph before becoming
> airborne. Alfa Romeos don't do well upside down. I still have scars from
> that one.

Horrible! I hope he paid your medical bills at least? Did he learn his
lesson and is he a very careful driver these days?

> It hasn't snowed yet but we're in a fairly typical winter pattern, high
> 30s or low 40s in the day and 20s at night. Perfect conditions to reflow
> the ice every day. The trails get icy and stay that way and the less
> traveled roads can have all sorts of surprises.

Be safe and take your time!

> There aren't many hardwood species but Ponderosa pines loose a percentage
> of their needles in the fall. The long shed needles form a thatch that's
> good for skiing if you're not careful. Larch loose their needles
> completely but they're short enough to not be hazardous.

Neither of those grow here. All the needletrees keep their needles all
year long. The larch must be so... naked.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
>> the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
>> where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
>> practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
>> mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.
>
> Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
> Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you
> didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.
>

I reached the same conclusion many years ago. Thank you, Merton was the
name I was looking for but didn't find. Anthony de Mello I think is
another one of those fusion guys.

I did follow on the the links, and on it I saw that todays Zen is a fairly
modern invention. I was not aware of that. It was renovated during the
Meiji restoration. In india, some guy tried to merge marxism and buddhism
in the same "modern" spirit.

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
>> environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
>> buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
>> shit hits the fan".
>
> An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if
> they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.
>

Ahh... I lost a business deal with the government yesterday, and this old
trick was specifically the reason. The IT-department was very pro-windows,
and with my solution, they had to manage linux and the hardware, but not
the solution on top. With the competitor, they promised them that they'd
take care of everything and that they would never have to see a terminal,
and there was much rejoicing among the windows people.

The only thing we can hope is that the PoC goes to pieces, and then I
might be able to sneak back in.

Well... off to the next deal! =)

On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:58:55 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
>> "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
>> guaranteed debt then"
>> "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
>> "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
>
> I remember an article in the WSJ about the great new idea of creating a
> tranche of mortgages likely to fail, peddle the derivatives, and wait for
> the failure and subsequent insurance payout.
>
> I'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
> thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999
> 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal
> controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything
> stupid this time.
>
> I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
> policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis
> proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.
>

I think one reason for this is that you, and I, can often analyze in the
comfort of our own homes and we are not public persons.

The glamour experts are often public persons and they thrive in the spot
light. That means that they must adapt their analyzes to what sells at the
moment.

Then you have the other strategy adopted by Dr Doom who confidently
predicts a disaster every year, until he finally is right, and then he is
dusted off and paraded through the media, only to then be forgotten for
about 6-7 years until he is right again. ;)

On Tue, 9 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
>> spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
>> knowledgeable!
>
> I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll
> admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
> blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
> it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though
> parallels my understanding of the world.

Ah, Kim is an excellent book! I'm a big fan of Kipling. Sometimes, when
I'm in the mood, I direct woke people to "The white mans burden". ;)

As for asian isms and philosophy I was reading a lot of it in my teenage
years. Then followed the years of work and earning money, and after a
while I delved into christians mysticism, and that's when the enormous
amounts of simlarities hit me.

Now it goes in cycles. Busy at work, little reading, little work, plenty
of reading.

> However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't
> think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
> original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
> contra Nietzsche.

This is a problem. I am an optimist (long term) by nature, so sin,
suffering etc. never really corresponded with me. Naturally I'm more into
life affirming things.

>> I agree completely! I do like Schopenhauers short philosophical texts
>> about everyday life (Parerga und paralipomena). Some of them make
>> perfect sense and are quite approachable.
>
> I've got Hollingdale's 'Essays and Aphorisms' that is a selection. I don't
> know how complete it is. I have read that during his service in WWI Hitler
> carried a copy of Schopenhauer's writings in his knapsack. I assume it was
> Parerga and not the two volumes of The World.

Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers in
WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

>> But his magnum opus I don't agree with at all.
>
> For me that's back to his pessimism. I think the real person of the 'obit
> anus, abit onus' quote would have been more interesting than the
> intellectual. He probably had a few good rants on Hegel too.

Could he be the original Troll? No, surely that must be Socrates. As a
man with trollish inclinations, I'm happy that I'm not dealt with like
the greek dealt with their proto-troll. ;)

I also do not like philosophers with verbal diarrhea. I like philosopher
who can communicate their thoughts with a minimum of writing. Even though
I find him quite complicated, in terms of writing style, I also like
Wittgenstein.

>> Nietzsche on the other hand, is much better at writing, and although I
>> do not think that it is just a bunch of random aphorisms, I do believe
>> there is a theme, they are quite a puzzle to fit together.
>>
>> Add to that, that his views changed. My favourite is the middle period
>> Nietzsche who does see the promise in science and rationality.
>
> That is more interesting than Schopenhauer. He may have done a little
> polishing but he was a one trick pony, unlike Nietzsche. I'm currently re-
> reading the unfinished 'Philosophy in the Tragic Age of the Greeks' that's
> quite linear. Prior to that I'd reread the late works, Twilight,
> Antichrist, and Ecce Homo. Next I'll redo the middle. It's been some time
> since I've read 'Untimely Meditations', the others I've hit more recently.
> TBH Zarathustra is my least favorite of the while corpus.

I haven't really looked much into early Nietzsche, but if anything, I'll
probably try one of his later works.

>
>> But another thing I like about Nietzsche, at least for me, is that his
>> short aphorisms serve as a spring board for me for my own reflections
>> and philosophy. I find it very inspirational. The anti-christ I also
>> like with its critique of institutionalized christianity and how
>> damaging it has been to society.
>
> 'The Will to Power' is one my bathroom book pile. I read random selections
> like some people do with the bible. I don't trust the llama as an editor
> but I'm glad she undertook the project.

How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

> Antichrist reminds me of the Jefferson Bible and some of the newer
> projects. Pauline Christianity has nothing to do with Jesus. I think by
> then Nietzsche felt bad about sniping at poor old Strauss.

Haha, yes, the trollish tendencies again? ;)

On 09/12/2024 21:12, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 12:37:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> I think you have never been exposed to the Indian art of story telling.
>> Read Salman Rushdies 'Haroun and the Sea of Stories'...
>
> iirc I took a run at 'The Satanic Verses' but couldn't get any traction.
> while I can understand the endless repetitions as an aid to verbal
> transmission it does get old in the sutras.
>

I am not a fan of either the satanic verses or midnights children

But 'Haroun' was written for a child, and is non political.

Same as Kipling's 'Jungle book'

Both pick up the penchant for story telling...in India

>> He arrived at an Eastern view of the world from first principles Quite a
>> feat.
>
> I think he remarked that when he finally encountered Buddhism it looked a
> lot like home.
>

It is 0ne of the places that has some reason to exist
--
There’s a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

On 09/12/2024 21:51, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 11:56:56 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 08/12/2024 21:13, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:04:17 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life?
>>>> I've never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol,
>>>> but I did have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15.
>>>> I've had a few mild echoes of that experience, but never anything
>>>> close to the strength of it since.
>>>
>>> No. I don't remember much of it other than it wasn't a completely
>>> paranoid experience like the first one.
>>
>> Many people 'don't remember' . Its cognitive dissonance. The ones that
>> do, tell an interestng story.
>
> Some are better story tellers. Those who use psychedelics in search of a
> transformative may be predisposed to finding it.

It is what it is. What people make of it is another matter.

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

On 09/12/2024 21:53, Rich wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
>>> ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
>>> environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
>>> buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
>>> shit hits the fan".
>>
>> LOL.
>>
>> Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.
>>
>> They are just designed to make money out of.
>>
>> The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.
>>
>> "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
>> "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
>> guaranteed debt then"
>> "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
>> "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
>>
>>
>> http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg
>
> Nice...
>
> Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
> about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.

Oh they did. My then BiL was deep into finance and banking at the time
and was literally shaking his head in disbelief. The financial times had
grave doubts.

Cambridge city council bunged 8 million into Icelandic banks which was
stupid. I asked whether the bursar had ever read the FT. The reply came
back 'no, he is too busy'

My jaw has never actually returned to the correct place. A man in charge
of investing millions of pounds of public money is 'too busy' to read
the most important financial paper in the world?

Apparently the job consist in random picking of half a dozen investments
from an apprioved list. On that list were several banks that needed
rescuing ultimately..

How someone with no apparent experience in finance or accounting got
that job I cannot say.

It was the same with GM bonds. GM bonds were - or should have been -
junk. GM was essentially bankrupt.

And yet they were trading on the basis that the political fallout from
letting GM crash and burn was such that the government would always bail
them out

--
“Some people like to travel by train because it combines the slowness of
a car with the cramped public exposure of 
an airplane.”

Dennis Miller

On 09/12/2024 21:57, Rich wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 09/12/2024 09:33, D wrote:
>>> I believe the phenomenon of religion has a common, personal "core",
>>> and that after the original inspired founder was gone, the path to
>>> using his teachings as a way to power starts.
>>>
>>> Once it becomes institutionalized, all the deep, meaningful and
>>> personal experiences get lost and you just get the ossified,
>>> formalized remains left.
>>
>> Was Moses a person in divine contact with God, or a very smart and
>> wise Jew who chipped away on some stone tablets, told the tribes
>> 'these are Gods Words' and thereby created a morality that allowed
>> laws to be divine rather than man made?
>
> What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
> laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
> Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....
>
> One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
> as "divine from God" to the tribe members.

Of all the people in the world, excepting Freud, the Jews are the very
best psychologists.
That is ultimately what made Marx so dangerous. Instead of setting up a
narrative that guaranteed peace and the rule of law, he invented a
narrative of hatred and victimhood that appealed to the very worst sort
of people.

Nasty chippy little kraut.

--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On 09/12/2024 22:12, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:33:06 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I find it interesting how in our modern and enlightened times (say from
>> the 1950s and onward) there's been a "merge" with eastern spirituality
>> where christian writers have "christianized" eastern meditational
>> practices, and sometimes almost re-invented what the original crew you
>> mentioned above did several 100 years earlier.
>
> Prophet in his own land... iirc Thomas Merton, who was well versed in
> Zen, pointed out the similarities to Christian mysticism and suggested you
> didn't really need to make the 'journey to the east'.

Mysticism is pretty much the same the world over. As I said some
consider its the relics of a global shamanism that permeated the dawn of
time.

It all deals with non-ordinary states of mind. What differs, is how it
is described and tge means by which you obtain them.

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

On 09/12/2024 22:23, rbowman wrote:
> 'm not interested in the stock market or economics in general but I
> thought 'this isn't going to end well.' I thought the same about the 1999
> 'Financial Services Modernization Act' that removed the Glass-Steagal
> controls with the financiers promising they weren't going to do anything
> stupid this time.
>
Indeed. I was peripherally interested. For reasons I wont go into here.
All the signs were of a major crash, but in the end only Lehman went to
the wall and here Arthur Andersen, crooks of the first order.

The world has been bumbling along on fantasy finance ever since.

Taking on debt that will never be repaid

We need a world war to wipe some slates clean frankly

> I'm not prescient nor do I claim any expertise in economics, foreign
> policy, and so forth but it's depressing how often my personal analysis
> proves to be correct versus the 'experts'.

Wood and trees mate. You are nicely distant and can take objective views.

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

On 09/12/2024 23:15, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 10:43:00 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> Are you a buddhist or do you subscribe to some form of personal
>> spirituality? Or is it just an intellectual interest? You seem very
>> knowledgeable!
>
> I have had a lifelong interest in Buddhism, as my bookshelf reflects. I'll
> admit it stemmed from being a 10 year old beatnik wannabe. I could also
> blame Kipling's 'Kim' for an interest in eastern religion. I would say
> it's mostly an intellectual interest though I find much of Buddhist though
> parallels my understanding of the world.
>
> However I have the same problem as I have with Christianity. If you don't
> think the world is 'dukkha', which I find similar to the concept of
> original sin, salvation isn't a goal. It is the same as Schopenhauer
> contra Nietzsche.
>

The guy who wrote Jonathan Livingstone Seagull is a committed
Christian., IN one of his books he likens sin, to stalling an aeroplane.
Them's the rules, break than and shit results

"He who shits in the road, will meet flies in his return"

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On 09/12/2024 23:19, D wrote:
> I think you might enjoy the book The Shaky Game - Einstein, Realism and
> the Quantum Theory.
>
> An excerpt...
>
> "Realism is dead. Its death was announced by the neopositivists who
> realized that they could accept all the results of science, including
> all the members of the scientific zoo, and still declare that the
> questions raised by the existence claims of realism were mere pseudo-
> questions. Its death was hastened by the debates over the inter-
> pretation of quantum theory, where Bohr's nonrealist philosophy was seen
> to win out over Einstein's passionate realism. Its death was certified,
> finally, as the last two generations of physical scientists turned their
> backs on realism and have managed, nevertheless, to do science
> successfully without it. To be sure, some recent philo- sophical
> literature has appeared to pump up the ghostly shell and to give it new
> life. I think these efforts will eventually be seen and understood as
> the first stage in the process of mourning, the stage of denial. But I
> think we shall pass through this first stage and into that of
> acceptance, for realism is well and truly dead, and we have work to get
> on with, in identifying a suitable successor."
>
> Let me know if you would like to read more, and I can get you the book
> in electronic format (unless you haven't read it already).

Sounds like fun. Books like that I pay money for. They are in general
worth it.

That excerpt pretty much sums it all up.

People have seen the issues that arrive with realism but very few have
come around to Kant's and Schopenhauer's TI.

One of the late greats who is almost completely unknown, was Hilary
Putnam. He really understood the problems, although I am not sure he
felt he could offer any solutions.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 10/12/2024 04:41, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-12-09, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024 15:28:19 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed, *very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
>>> environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
>>> buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
>>> shit hits the fan".
>>
>> An argument from our clients is Linux isn't 'supported'. When asked if
>> they've ever used Microsoft support, crickets.
>
> Several years ago Microsoft's buzzphrase against Linux was "total cost
> of ownership" (TCO). In other words, M$ products cost money, but the
> support more than makes up for it. It was amazing how fast evidence
> to the contrary piled up. "TCO" disappeared from the M$ marketing
> lexicon pretty fast.
>
ROFLMAO

Indeed. Total cost of ownership of SCO UNIX was amazingly low, even
after you had bought the license
Not much goes wrong with a wyse 50

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 10/12/2024 08:58, D wrote:
> I would _love_ to do that kind of experiment, tring out some psylocybin
> on hard core atheists, or even better, not even telling them what the
> test is about, and see the reaction and what they experience.
>
> Then running the same tests on atheists who know the experiments is
> about finding god, to compare.

My research suggest that everybody ends up in the same place, but some
use the language of religion to describe it and some do not.

It is difficult to describe a state of mind in which language and
internal verbalisation has broken down.

It is in an utterly prosaic and un 'gosh wow' way 'beyond our
comprehension'. To look at something and not recognise it.

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 10/12/2024 08:59, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 9 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>

>>
>> What better way is there to get the "tribe" to not question the "moral
>> laws" than to convince them that their God explicitly deemed these so.
>> Who are you, lowly tribe member, to question the "word of God".....
>>
>> One just have to be successful in the process of selling of the 'laws'
>> as "divine from God" to the tribe members.
>>
>
> True. And today we do the same thing with climate change, although the
> laws comes from scientists, who represent "the truth" (TM) and may never
> be questioned.

Yup. and for a lot less socially acceptable motives.

--
“It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established
authorities are wrong.”

― Voltaire, The Age of Louis XIV

On 10/12/2024 09:05, D wrote:
> some guy tried to merge marxism and buddhism in the same "modern" spirit.

*shudder*.

--
Labour - a bunch of rich people convincing poor people to vote for rich
people by telling poor people that "other" rich people are the reason
they are poor.

Peter Thompson

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 09/12/2024 21:53, Rich wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 09/12/2024 15:28, Rich wrote:
>>>> ndeed,*very* much so. Which is why "enterprise" and "corporate" IT
>>>> environments are so rabid about having "support". "Support" is their
>>>> buzzword for "someone else to blame so we can cover our assess when the
>>>> shit hits the fan".
>>>
>>> LOL.
>>>
>>> Most support contracts are not worth wiping your bottom on.
>>>
>>> They are just designed to make money out of.
>>>
>>> The sub prime mortgage crisis was typical of such.
>>>
>>> "We have shit loads of bad debt that we cant offload"
>>> "Well package it up with insurance against failure and sell it as A1
>>> guaranteed debt then"
>>> "But what will happen if the insurance companies can't cover it"
>>> "Oh that will be the government's problem, not ours"
>>>
>>>
>>> http://vps.templar.co.uk/Cartoons%20and%20Politics/story.jpg
>>
>> Nice...
>>
>> Although I doubt that anyone actually asked the "what if" question
>> about the insurance companies in the run-up to the explosion.
>
> Oh they did. My then BiL was deep into finance and banking at the time and
> was literally shaking his head in disbelief. The financial times had grave
> doubts.
>
> Cambridge city council bunged 8 million into Icelandic banks which was
> stupid. I asked whether the bursar had ever read the FT. The reply came back
> 'no, he is too busy'
>
> My jaw has never actually returned to the correct place. A man in charge of
> investing millions of pounds of public money is 'too busy' to read the most
> important financial paper in the world?
>
> Apparently the job consist in random picking of half a dozen investments from
> an apprioved list. On that list were several banks that needed rescuing
> ultimately..
>
> How someone with no apparent experience in finance or accounting got that job
> I cannot say.
>
> It was the same with GM bonds. GM bonds were - or should have been - junk. GM
> was essentially bankrupt.
>
> And yet they were trading on the basis that the political fallout from
> letting GM crash and burn was such that the government would always bail them
> out

That is why I am in favour of having as a _requirement_ for senior public
positions and political offices to

1. Have a degree.
2. Know english.

Ideally it would be nice to have them pass a psychological test to make
sure they are not complete psychos, and perhaps an intelligence test or
two as well. =)

I doubt I will see the above happen in my lifetime, although, if
transhumanism is right, perhaps immortality is around the corner!

I also think that having an academic degree actually is a requirement in
some countries. In germany senior politicians seem to be very fond of
plagiarizing their way to Ph.D:s.

On Tue, 10 Dec 2024 10:20:41 +0100, D wrote:

> Hmm, didn't they print some Nietzsche too and send out to the soldiers
> in WW1? Hmm, maybe not.

Wikipedia claims about 150,000 copies of Zarathustra were given out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche#cite_note-300

The Kaufmann citation is from 'Nietzsche Philosopher, Psychologist,
Antichrist' and says

"Feelings ran high both in Germany, where Zarathustra was pushed to a new
sales record as a "must" for the soldier's knapsack, and in England and
the United States, where Nietzsche began to be considered as the apostle
of German ruthlessness and barbarism."

In his notes on his translation of Zarathustra Kaufmann says there are a
few gems in the mire, a lot of very poor writing, and difficulties
translating the puns and so forth. He also trashes Thomas Common's 1909
translation, saying at one point he wasn't sure if Common spoke either
English or German very well.

I wouldn't call Kaufmann a hostile translator but he wasn't a real fan.
Being a Jew who fled Germany in 1939 he really hated Foerster-Nietzsche.
He became the Nietzsche expert for a generation but he needs to be taken
with a grain of salt.

> How much of it is Nietzsche and how much did his sister change?

He had left a few notes for a future work but never followed through.
Foerster-Nietzsche used the rough outline sort the section headings and
collected notes and jottings that seemed to fit. She may have edited some
of those but the real argument is she promoted the collection as
Nietzsche's final magnum opus, rather than Ecce Homo. I have Common's
translation of Zarathustra which has a foreword by her. She throws in a
few snippets from 'Ecce Homo' but tried to downplay it since some of it
doesn't support her agenda.

fwiw, while Kaudmann might have been full of himself when criticizing
Common, Common's translation reads like the King James bible with all the
archaic thee's and thou's.