On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
>>>>>> me Natures best laxative...
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
>>>>> at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
>>>>> I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
>>>> they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
>>>
>>> A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
>>> operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
>>> pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
>>>
>>> I went to her funeral.
>>>
>>> Other people end up with amputations.
>>>
>>> Hip replacements are very successful though.
>>>
>>> Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics
>>> to the wound site
>>
>> Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of life,
>> my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having struggled with
>> very painful cancer treatment for several years.
>
> Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic incurable
> conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and keep going.
> Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.

I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with some
great scientific leaps in the future!

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
>> they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
>
> https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/
>
> Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it. Not a
> replacement but I have a gamma nail in my hip after a fall on ice a couple
> of years ago. The rehab took a couple of months but I have not problem
> hiking or doing my usual activities. It doesn't let me forget it's there
> though.

How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
but you otherwise forget it?

> When I was a kid my grandmother broke her hip. They might as well have
> taken her out and shot her. The mechanical aspects of medical technology
> have really made progress. I'm not sure about the drugs.

It seems to me that dentistry is less painful today than 30 years ago. I
don't know if I have manned up, or if this is actually the case? On the
other hand, I am blessed with teeth like Jaws in James Bond, since I've
never had a cavity in my life.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 17:30, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/12/2024 10:43, D wrote:
>>>> This sounds plausible. I predict 4 difficult years with Starmer and
>>>> socialism.
>>>> After that, if the Tories have bright and flexible minds, there will be a
>>>> coalition between Tories and Farage, and UK will be where sweden is now
>>>> with a center government supported by the nationalist sweden democrats.
>>>
>>> I pretty much agree with that.
>>> The tories had forgot to be conservative, and so they got kicked out. The
>>> socialists are predictably beyond incompetence, and in 4 years time they
>>> will go.
>>>
>>> I am not sure what the outcome will be but the country needs, wants, and
>>> will ultimately vote for, an end to wokeness and political ideology and a
>>> return to some sort of competent management...
>>>
>>> Kemi Badenoch is making all the right noises for the Tories, but can she
>>> repair the damage?
>>
>> I'd say it depends on how much of a fighter she is.
> Og she is tough. And at some level a software engineer too. I rather like
> her.

Wow! Had no idea. Will be very interesting to follow the next 4 years!

>> She needs to kick out the old guard, and start afresh. She also needs to
>> balance and respect the wishes of Farage.
>
> Farage is just a spokesman. He represents people he has talked to. He has no
> wishes as such. And sadly, because I like the bloke, he is drifting out of
> touch.

Also interesting. I thought he was planning a come back in 4 years time. I
also like him. He seems like a smart guy.

> There is more wrong than uncontrolled immigration
>
>> the swedish coalition has lasted more than 2 years now, and that coalition
>> includes the swedish (socialist) liberal party who are so afraid of losing
>> their seats (and money) in a new election, that they have been bullied to
>> "shut up" by the nationalists.
>
> Bullying socialists should be an Olympic sport.
>
>> They have 2.8% and the nationalists have about 20%, so they are always
>> saying "let's do it, let's have an election and see if you will last". This
>> threat is remarkably effective at stopping the (socialist) liberal party
>> from toppling the coalition.
>
>
>

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
>> the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
>> arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
>> Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
>
> I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
> times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about
> humans.
>

Yes... I think that an enormously impressive feat of thinking and
philosophy for being that old. The along came Nietzsche and took the next
logical step. ;)

On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
>>> So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought
>>> forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's
>>> just a bunch of nice stories.
>>
>> Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position
>> here.
>>
>> What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
>
> With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the
> material world.

Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 17:33, D wrote:
>> The richer we become, the less of a grip socialism has on the lower
>> classes.
>>
>> That is why they are scrambling for new fronts such as the environment and
>> immigration (import a new lower class and start again from the 1800:s).
>
> A novel perspective.
>
> Socialism relies on fresh victims to champion (but never actually fix), their
> victimhood., If they cease to be victims, why would they support Socialism?

Exactly. That is why I believe that socialism morphed into the modern woke
movement.

They don't wear the label, but in essence, it is the logical continuation.
The working classes deserted them when they became wealthy enough, so then
along came the women (all men are evil), and then came the immigrants (all
white men are evil) and then came the homos and on and on.

The disadvantage for them is... that eventually the groups will starts to
prey on each other, and infighting starts, and then the house of cards
collapses. We've seen that in europe, where socialism has forgotten the
"common man" in favour of homos, immigrants, women, eco-facists etc. and
now it's blown up in their faces.

As always... the extreme left and extreme right, always the populists,
swoop in from the sidelines and wins.

There is, however, another logical progression of the woke ideology that
is less likely to happen. The groups keep dividing, and subdividing, until
it reaches its logical end station were division is no longer feasible...

....individualism. ;)

On 07/12/2024 21:57, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2024 16:42, D wrote:
>>> The thing is... should we ever prove any of it, which is not done, it
>>> will all just be added to our concept of the "material world" (caveat
>>> emptor, and definitions aside) and expand it and enrich our model of it.
>>
>> That is your credo - your religion.
>> I do not ascribe to it.
>
> And I respect that. I disagree, it is not a religion, it is a
> description of the real world we actually live in, that is reality.
>
> I know you do not ascribe to it. You have not managed to persuade me of
> your point, and likewise, I have not persuaded you of my point.
>
> I agree to disgree. Do you? ;)
>
>> Already quantum physics makes the 'material world' some sort of
>> emergent property of a natural dice throwing quagmire of sub
>> atomicity. To the point where calling it a 'material world' seems a
>> bit impertinent.
>>
>> I merely say that to consider that the material world is just an
>> emergent property of quantum soup *and* human consciousness, is more
>> flexible and useful..
>
> Regardless, it is still part of an expanding material world. When I say
> material, you need to stop thinking "material" and start thinking about
> reality as a totality, that we get to know better and better.
>
> Quantum mechanics can progress, we are all energy, or strings, I really
> do not care, because that is just part of our material world, that we
> explore through the method and process of science.
>
> It doesn't matter how hard one twists or turns, or looks to quantum
> theorists, what ever they find out, will just enlarge our understanding
> of the material world, or the universe, or the totality or what ever you
> want to call it.
>
>> I don't 'believe it to be 'true' because I cant believe *anything* to
>> be true.
>
> That is a self refuting position. Because that statement in itself,
> would be a truth you do subscribe to.
>
That is the trouble with your brain.

It thinks in Boolean logic. In literal terms,

>> It's models, not turtles, all the way down. Models whose sole
>> justification is that they work well enough for us to think them and
>> not die prematurely.
>
> True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In
> fact, the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.
>

I never said there wasn't a material world, juts that is nothing like
what you think of as 'the material world' which is a figment of the
imagination

>> That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying
>> externality
> ... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
>> I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your
>> thinking.
>
No. the need for security exists in almost everyone. People want simple
truths. Certainties. The certainty of God, The certainty of a 'material
world'. The certainty of 'social justice'

> I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words
> in my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end
> up killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not
> like for that to happen.

:-)

--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 17:44, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:
>>
>>>> LOL at the "Marxist termites". Wotta drama queen!
>>>
>>> I guess you are one after all.
>>
>> You seem to come to conclusions based on little to no evidence.
> I think I learnt that from Marxism
>
>>
>>>>> Now they control them the inevitable collapse towards anarchy or
>>>>> idiocracy begins.
>>>>
>>>> Are you saying the "go woke go broke" people are anarchists or idiocrats?
>>>
>>> Idiocrats *and* anarchists
>>
>> Thank you for that admission.
>>
>>> And its the Left who are going to get sliced into bacon.
>>
>> How about centrists like myself?
>>
> I dount you are a centrist. I suspect you are simply a shade to thee right of
> Trotsky
>
>> You sure have a way with violent turns of phrase.
>>
>
> I learnt it from the Marxists
>

Ahh... Chris... is a total woke socialist. Blocked him ages ago. Don't
waste your time arguing with him.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:20:51 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I tried for a bit, to try and "distill" original buddhism, and although
>> it was difficult to find anything specific, my feeling was that original
>> buddhism was more about doing, rather than speculating, so heavily
>> meditation focused, and not very speculation focused.
>>
>> Another thing I found out was also that original buddhism was heavily
>> adapted to the individual (naturally) where buddha tried to tailor the
>> techniques and teachings to the individual he was talking with, and that
>> is why it started to diverge over the millennia.
>
> There are many flavors. The original Theravada wasn't speculative.
>
> https://sacred-texts.com/bud/bits/bits013.htm
>
> Mahayana picked up a lot of Hindu metaphysics and became more ornate. The
> Tibetan branch really gets into it. But then it circles back with Ch'an
> and Zen to become more stripped down.
>
> Of course in common practice you get the usual mythology and rituals.
>

This aligns with my perception as well. Zen, or chan, circling back trying
to "purify" it. Makes me wonder if some people are just naturally good at
meditation? Some seem to continue year after year without any results,
while other ninjas, seem to go far, pretty quick.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:37:26 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
> experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.

Communism + Democracy might add up to something different.

Case in point: after all the woes it has been suffering the past several
years, Sri Lanka recently voted in a Marxist-Leninist President. He took a
chance and called a snap Parliamentary election, and his party now has the
majority of seats.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:43:12 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> The sound of one hand clapping is a phrase that seems to make sense, in
>> that you understand all the words, but it points to an impossible or
>> meaningless event.
>>
>> The intention is to guide the student away from a dependence on the
>> reality of words to a reality beyond them.
>
> The koans are criticized and being meaningless riddles. otoh you have
> Heidegger trying to talk about things that can't be talked about with
> neologisms.
>

I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an individual
phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the answer to
nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of zen.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 20:16:25 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Democracy isn't failing so much as elected representatives dislike the
> insecurity and work to subvert it.

This is why you have “checks and balances”, one of which is a free press.

Last I checked, the USA was about a third of the way down the list of
comparative press freedoms.

On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death
>>> experiences as well.
>>>
>> The ultimate trauma...
>
> Yes, and boy is it fascinating!
>
>>> That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms
>>> are now starting to become so common, if there's something to be
>>> gained by doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind
>>> with external drugs?
>>>
>> Depends on the person.  Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or
>> revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...
>
> True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant
> family
> and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since
> it might
> be latent in me.
>
>> There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then
>> unable to cope with daily life.
>
> This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints,
> saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints
> really be a good end station for humanity?
>
> If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of
> humanity) to
> move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the
> "rock
> stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the
> brothers take
> care of them.
>
> Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
> species would
> just slowly fade away.
>
>> "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After
>> enlightenment chopping wood, fetching water"
>>
>> :-)
>
> True. From where is that quote?

Standard Zen shit I think

>
>>> The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground
>>> trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
>>> merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.
>>>
>> Bliss junkies.
>>
>> It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
>> with that for my last operation. Wow!
>
> Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant
> effects,
> and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha
> strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and
> so on,
> and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by
> that".
>
Yes. Very much so.

> It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also
> make me
> think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it
> might
> actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around
> feeling bliss all day.
>
>>> Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for
>>> decades, and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving
>>> man, with enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and
>>> helping people.
>>>
>> Indeed.
>>
>>> The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his
>>> dose of spirituality.
>>>
>> Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.
>>
>> There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
>> guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
>> one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.
>
> I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to
> mitigate
> that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and
> the
> doseages.

Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic
age. If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.

>
>>> Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the
>>> other method?
>>>
>> Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive
>> any drug. But weak people are attracted.
>
> Only one way to find out! ;)
>
>>> I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
>>> underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards
>>> he felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even
>>> hesitated to kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect
>>> started to wear off as life came back.
>>>
>> Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
>> alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution,
>> but your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they
>> are a tool to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the
>> modification will hold.
>
> I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
> your ego,
> jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the
> gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might
> shake it
> a bit so it becomes unstuck?

Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad
metaphysical choice.
People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously, that
makes them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their
belief.

"everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way,
so I don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are
simply wrong"

>
>> This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely
>> permanently 'enlightened'
>
> True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
> life
> was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would
> go to
> heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't
> forbid
> that way of "hacking the system"! ;)
>
Lol. Hacking the christian system

>>> I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.
>>>
>>> For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
>>
>> "In my life, I have travelled many paths,
>> into the bush and out of it
>> But I am not anywhere.
>> For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
>> On any path with heart
>> And their I travel looking breathlessly"
>>
>> "But how can one know a path with heart?"
>>
>> "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"
>
> From where is this quote?

The teachings of Don Juan - Carlos Castenada. A mixture of truth and
fiction IMHO.

--
The higher up the mountainside
The greener grows the grass.
The higher up the monkey climbs
The more he shows his arse.

Traditional

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 17:57:36 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
>
> Try Nagarjuna's tetralemma. His Mūlamadhyamakakārikā[ is good for a
> little mind bending.
>

You guys are giving me too much to read, and too much to reply to. At the
same time, it is not very often I find as interesting discussions on
usenet. But sometimes it does happen. ;)

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2024 02:30, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
>>>>
>>>> I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst to
>>>> me Natures best laxative...
>>>
>>> Interesting. I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
>>> at least for me. This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
>>> I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
>>
>> Oh gawd. I hope it works out. I hate to say it, but IME around 50% of
>> knee operations fail.
>>
>> Sometimes fatally
>
> Sepsis is always bad news. But there are a lot of measures being
> taken to avoid this.
>
> I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
> to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
> than failures.
>
> As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
> and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
> to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.

I hope you will have a speedy, good and pain free recovery! =)

On 07/12/2024 22:20, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
>>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And
>>>>>>> unbeknownst to
>>>>>>> me Natures best laxative...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
>>>>>> at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
>>>>>> I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no
>>>>> idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
>>>>
>>>> A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
>>>> operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
>>>> pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
>>>>
>>>> I went to her funeral.
>>>>
>>>> Other people end up with amputations.
>>>>
>>>> Hip replacements are very successful though.
>>>>
>>>> Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver
>>>> antibiotics to the wound site
>>>
>>> Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
>>> life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
>>> struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.
>>
>> Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
>> incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
>> keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.
>
> I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with
> some great scientific leaps in the future!

Well a major transplant of 3-4 organs and a massive break through in
cancer might fixe them all.

But I am not holding my breath,.
My body is simply worn out.

--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-07, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>
>> And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE students,
>
> I hear that there are now additional certifications beyond MSCE and MSCD:
>
> MSCC - Microsoft Certified Crashers
> MSCB - Microsoft Certified Buyers

Good one! And very true!

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> We don't know the right answers, we have to experiment. And some
>> experiments end in failure. Communism ended in failure.
>>
>> But why then are we so keen to reintroduce it?
>
> Because democracy is also ending in failure.
>
> There's probably a good essay someone could write around the concept
> of the Final Vote. That's when a democratic society decides to vote
> away their freedom and install a dictator.

I would argue that the democracy we have today, is one of the youngest and
least tested forms of governance we have. I do not consider it a
continuation of greece, but a new, modern, system that drew some
inspiration from greece.

On the other hand, we all now how well it went for democracy in greece, so
that does not bode well for us.

The only game changer today is a globally integrated civilization and
communication at the speed of thought. I'm not saying that it will affect
how things go, but those conditions did not exist back then.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:

> Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
> species would just slowly fade away.

The dating of the Bhagavad Gita us controversial. One theory is it is not
as old as claimed and was written after Buddhism became established.
Gautama was a Kshatria, the warrior and administrator varna. As such, he
attracted men from the same varna to lead lives as monks.

The Gita gets more philosophical but in the beginning Arjuna is on a
battlefield and is getting cold feet. His mentor, Krishna, tells him he is
a warrior and that's what warriors do. Get with the program.

The thought is the Gita was addressed to young Kshatriya to remind them of
their role in society and not to abandon it to follow some monk.

It will never happen but I'd really like to see Gabbard taking the
Presidential oath of office with her hand on the Gita.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:

> I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
> your ego,
> jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like
> the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug,
> might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?

Back in the day I did acid of dubious quality twice. The first was a bad
experience, the second was better. I was alone for the second attempt.

> True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
> life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they
> would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the
> church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"!

I don't think it was all that bad. People raised families and carried on
obviously or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I'm reading a series by James L. Nelson set in 852 A.D. when Dubh Linn was
a Norse settlement. It follows a small band whose leader only wants to
grab some Irish loot, go home to Norway, and spend his golden years
farming. It doesn't work out that was of course.

One of the band is a berserker. He gets morose after battles when he
survives since he wants a heroic death in battle to attract the Valkyries
to take him to Valhalla.

The Christians had to make a few edits to sell their goods to a warrior
culture. I think I've mentioned Russell's 'The Germanization of Early
Medieval Christianity' and the Heliand, a Saxon poem that had Jesus as the
drighten of a war band heading to the hill fort of Jerusalem. The massacre
of the Saxons didn't get the job done so they had to come up with a better
spin. We still honer Woden's Day and turning the other cheek never got
very popular.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:23:24 +0100, D wrote:

> How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
> annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
> but you otherwise forget it?

https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html

It's mostly at night if I lie on that side. The head of the lag screw
creates a pressure point. During the day it's rarely noticeable. For
example I put the studded winter tires on today and had no problems wuth
all the kneeling to position the jack, sitting to guide the tire on the
studs, standing to torque the nuts, carrying the summer tires to in back
of the shed, etc. Over the summer I was putting on 25 to 30 miles a week,
mostly on mountain trails with no problem.

The operation itself only requires two small incisions so it's minimally
intrusive. I was up with a walker the next day. I took a Tylenol before
the excursion but didn't notice any effect so I didn't bother after that.

It took several months to get back to normal. I spent the time in rehab
researching trike conversions or sidecars for the bikes j.i.c. I started
with a push bike to get the required range of motion. The first few
outings weren't very graceful on the dismount but I got the hang of it.
Both the V-Strom and DR650 are pretty tall but with the Sportster I can
step over the saddle.

On Sat, 07 Dec 2024 19:57:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 13:22:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Well the concept that no world exists is called Idealism. It's all in
>>> the mind. Mine alone [solipsism], Gods [monism], or some other
>>> arrangement. It explains everything but predicts nothing. Like Islam.
>>> Inshallah. If it is Gods Will. Great, But not very *helpful*.
>>
>> I like the Epicurean approach, which was probably a concession to the
>> times. The Gods exist on a planet somewhere but don't give a damn about
>> humans.
>
> Sounds like 21st-century oligarchs.

Not quite. The Epicureans thought the Gods, if they existed, were
completely uninvolved rather than causing wars, taking sides in battles,
fomenting unrest, and so forth. We'd be better off if the oligarchs were
off in the Caribbean drinking, fornicating, or whatever oligarchs do when
they're not starting wars for profit.

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>
>>> Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
>>> opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
>>> saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)
>>
>> Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the
>> distros (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar).
>> If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your
>> default name server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default
>> bootup, and so forth, it is more what you may be looking for than
>> the others (all of which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here
>> let me hold your hand via this custom GUI" system on top).
>
> Sounds great! =)
>
>>> Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
>>> are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my
>>> machines! =D
>>
>> Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish
>> to 'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
>> 'testout').
>>
>> It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
>> the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD
>> style rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of
>> SYSV sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want,
>> but the default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.
>
> Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it
> hasn't gotten any attention at all??

Likely because 99% of the "computer using public" is *lost* without the
"handholding GUI".

> I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to
> slckware to escape their systemd problems?

I can't answer that one. You'd have to ask them. I don't dabble in
either. First installed Slackware back when it was the "new and
improved SLS" (Soft Landing Systems). Have stuck with it since.

>>> I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the
>>> config file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that
>>> the teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to
>>> manage linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing
>>> them to miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how
>>> it was design to work. =(
>>
>> And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE
>> students, who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the
>> "Ubuntu way" and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost,
>> because they really did not learn how things worked behind the
>> "lipstick on a pig GUI".
>
> Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a
> cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core
> terminal work in that course. We've discovered that since they have
> a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that
> course, thus losing valuable time. =(

Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact
handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
changes, and they are lost again.

> I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next
> autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the
> terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)

That will reduce the lost time in the 'cloud' course just to bring them
up to speed to begin to operate.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:36:46 +0100, D wrote:

> I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
> students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
> Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an
> individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the
> answer to nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of
> zen.

Rinzai Zen is often criticized for the koan system. It might have worked
at one point before it became formalized.

https://www.amazon.com/Sound-One-Hand-Answers-Classics/dp/1681370220

For only $11.99 in the Kindle edition you can get the teacher's edition.

Soto Zen is more into just sitting (zazen).

And then there is the Western spin. It can be traced back to Alan Watts,
and alcoholic British expat, and through him to Christmas Humphreys, the
founder of the London Buddhist Society. Then you get to Bennett, the Order
of the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society, and
other assorted nutters. D.T. Suzuki was also from that group and threw in
his own spin.

Filter it through a generation or two and you have Tricycle. Personally I
prefer Rahula's take although he is often criticized as being too Western.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Buddha_Taught

On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
> ...
>
> I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to
> slckware to escape their systemd problems?

I might not be one of "those guys", but this is my journey as a
refugee from systemd:

- Based on notes and potentially fallible memory from 2013, I had
been on Mageia 2. IIRC, it was the next version of Mageia that
switched to systemd. I use RAIDs for main storage. My test VM
installed fine, but when I tried to boot the test VM via
systemd, it hung for several minutes and then booted into a
very broken state. Some stuff (including filesystems) had
timed out and not booted, while other stuff (including
filesystems) had not. The tools to decipher systemd's binary
journal (rather than plain-text logs) were not installed by
default. The system was in "I've fallen and can't get up"
condition. At that point, I decided I would be one of the last
people on the planet to be using something other than systemd
on my main machine(s).

- I ran Debian 7 from late 2013 to mid-2018. It was great, but
then Debian was overcome by the systemd virus, so my journey
continued.

- I ran Slackware 14.2 from mid-2018 to late 2018. Updates to
the kernel were a royal pain, because the tools to generate an
initrd with drivers for RAID are not even in IKEA-like state.
I got tired of having to troubleshoot the manual initrd
generation process on every kernel update. Every time,
something else had gone wrong and needed to be figured out and
solved. Fatigue set in.

- In late 2018, I switched to Devuan ascii, then went to beowulf,
then chimaera, and now daedalus.

Along the way, I think I tried a couple of other non-systemd
distributions. IIRC, one of them was too much like a toy, and
another set up hardware in such a way that disks kept detaching
and spamming system logs with messages about a disk going offline
and being recovered, rinsing, and repeating endlessly.

If Devuan continues to be viable, I'll probably stay here for as
long as possible. If/when Devuan becomes non-viable, I'll try to
find a viable Linux distribution with a variant of BSD as
fallback.

How's that for a long answer to a short question? :-)

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)