On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> I think things are a lot better nowadays. Our local hospital seems
>> to have it down to a science, and I've heard far more success stories
>> than failures.
>>
>> As for me, I'm on my second day after the procedure. I'm kicking back
>> and relaxing, and doing those stretching exercises to get things back
>> to normal. It'll take a while. Painkillers help.
>
> I hope you will have a speedy, good and pain free recovery! =)

Well, not quite pain-free...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 12/7/24 5:52 AM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 12/6/24 12:12 PM, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 06/12/2024 06:48, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>> On 12/5/24 4:36 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>> On 05/12/2024 09:31, D wrote:
>>>>>>> There is great good and great evil in man. That's what makes him
>>>>>>> so fascinating and why fighting is such a necessary sport to give
>>>>>>> an outlet for all that aggression.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Only man creates the categories of good and evil.
>>>>>> Science does not include them
>>>>>
>>>>>    The Real World exists. What any of that MEANS,
>>>>>    entirely our own inventions.
>>>>>
>>>>>    And those inventions tend to CHANGE over time.
>>>>>
>>>>>    Yea, kinda Nietzsche-esque ...
>>>>
>>>> More Kant-ian.
>>>>
>>>> His metaphysics draws a clear distinction between the
>>>> 'world-in-itself' and how we perceive it. His point being that the
>>>> objects we reify it into are not actually there as discrete
>>>> entities, they are simply how we describe it to ourselves and to
>>>> others.
>>>>
>>>> Which immediately solves the 'Theseus' ship' paradox*, as such a
>>>> ship doesn't exist, it is merely how we refer to a collection of
>>>> rotting bits of wood.
>>>>
>>>> (The Ship of Theseus, also known as Theseus's Paradox, is a paradox
>>>> and a common thought experiment about whether an object is the same
>>>> object after having all of its original components replaced over
>>>> time, typically one after the other.
>>>>
>>>> In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of
>>>> Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying
>>>> the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year,
>>>> the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the ship on a
>>>> pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. A question was raised by
>>>> ancient philosophers: After several hundreds of years of
>>>> maintenance, if each individual piece of the Ship of Theseus were
>>>> replaced, one after the other, was it still the same ship? )
>>>>
>>>> Modern philosophers still get their knickers in a twist over this.
>>>> If you are a died in the wool realist and materialist it is a
>>>> problem because you believe there exists such a thing as 'Theseus'
>>>> Ship' in reality.
>>>
>>> I would argue that the ones who most certainly do not have a problem
>>> with this are materialists. It's a bunch of atoms, and we can then
>>> make up labels. The problem guys are the platonists with their ideal
>>> heavens, concepts etc. which are forever beyond proof. The ding an
>>> sich is an absurd konzept an sich. If you postulate something which
>>> can never be known, it is kind of useless. It goes the same way as
>>> god, or a postulated first mover etc.
>>>
>>>> Kantians say that it's just a label: Distinct from the object that
>>>> it refers to. Meta data. A pointer.
>>
>>
>>  Kant ?
>>
>>  Try Wolfram's "A New Kind of Science" tome.
>>
>>  OK ... you'll go brain-dead after just a few
>>  chapters ..... and it's like 1000 pages ......
>>
>>  BUT, he kinda DID prove that our "physics" can be
>>  an emergent property of ultra-zillions of 'strings'
>>  humming along with simple interaction rules -
>>  cellular automata math.
>>
>>  Ultimately, all 'materialistic'.
>>
>>  But what WE make of it all, how we LIVE in it all ...
>>
>
> If he proved it, how come there has been so little talk about him in
> scientific circles?

They don't like him.

Besides, that kind of stuff is a few levels
above the physics we use, can test.

But it's INTERESTING.

On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
>> If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
>
> And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the necessary
> foundation of thinking.
>
> All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do or
> not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it not
> because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
>
> We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we understand
> them.

Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
with the existing physics :-)

I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.

On 12/7/24 5:40 AM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>>> This is not so good. I hope IBM won't kill redhat in the end.
>>
>>
>>  Alas I think they will. As said, you are now IBMs
>>  beta tester. This is valuable for working out a
>>  number of kinks - but eventually the kinks will
>>  be kinda dealt with. Then RH and its downstream
>>  parasites will Go Away.
>
> This is very sad. I know a guy who is an EMEA level manager at Redhat,
> so he
> benefited from the acquisition with a nice promotion. According to him,
> what IBM
> is currently doing to destroy it is to mess around with licensing, to
> make it
> more draconian and more expensive. Ceph has moved to IBM, so that will
> probably
> go downhill, since IBM will always push GPFS over ceph.
>
> At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate
> lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.

IBM has "different motives" when it comes to Linux.

They will use what they want to use and then trash
the rest.

We're in the middle of that.

> What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy
> seems to
> be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on
> rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their
> openstack
> and their ceph.

Yea, (real)SUSE isn't worth it anymore.

Ever tried OpenIndiana - formerly Solaris ? It's
not really Linux or Unix but "familiar". Really
not so bad.

And there's always Plan-9 :-)

> What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would
> focus on
> that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and
> see if I
> could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is
> blocking them well with openshift.

The pointy-haired bosses are only interested
in quick PROFITS and CONTROL. No sense of 'mission'
beyond that.

I greatly fear when Linus drops out of the picture.

>>>>  Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
>>>>  a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
>>>
>>> Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
>>> thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble
>>> musl will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about
>>> actually going back to some of my earliest experiments and try
>>> FreeBSD for day to day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I
>>> only need some basics, which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages,
>>> so if they fixed their wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to
>>> run a small linux VM for a working wifi driver) it could definitely
>>> be a serious option. Oh, and that would mean it doesn't drain the
>>> battery as well. But let's see. I think I can stick with opensuse
>>> 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and then they might kill the
>>> project in favuor of some container based crap.
>>
>>
>>  Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
>>  just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !
>>
>>  The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
>>  they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
>>  different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
>>  it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
>>  desktops.
>
> True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light
> scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs
> should be
> fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave
> opensuse 15.6 behind.

The BSDs might be just perfect for your needs. They
are NOT so perfect for other people's needs - esp
the gigantic 'desktop' users segment who expect tons
of eye candy, GUI everything and anything plugged-in
to Just Work.

I've got FreeBSD in a VM right now - to refine the
'how to do it' trivia. DID get X and XCFE installed.
Next step is to install on an N95 BMax mini-box and
attach an external HD box. I'd like to use SAMBA but
something weird CHANGED with that in the last year
or two and I can't seem to bring up the shares -
always permissions errors regardless. NFS works,
but it's got less security and far fewer options.

Hmmm ... is it possible to 'dd' a VM into a usable
bootable image on a real machine ? I've seen various
'answers'. MX has a utility for cloning the running
install, it works well, but haven't seen that elsewhere.

>>  OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
>>  albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
>>  "light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
>>  a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
>>  boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
>>  found instructions - pages and pages and pages
>>  of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
>>  it would probably disappear on the next update.
>
> I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to
> run on it
> and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese
> raspberry
> copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed
> to get
> working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.

Well, not all PI clones are equal. DID try an Orange PI
and Banana PI. Close ... but not QUITE the same. It'd
depend on your exact purpose. If you NEED all the I/O
pins then stick to PIs, esp genuine PIs. If not then
shop BMax/BeeLink mini-boxes. Did buy another Pi just
a few weeks ago - but it's a Pi4, not Pi5. The pre-
BookWORM distros will run on it.

> I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi
> zero. That
> is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage
> on the
> tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well
> on it.

The P0 is an interesting variant. You could do a lot of
useful stuff with the old Pi-1/2 boards and P0 seems to
encapsulate that capability without much more BS.

WiFi/BT/etc ... MIGHT take a bigger board - but the
parts ARE getting smaller and better all the time.
Expect a Pi0.1 eventually.

When I retired I still had an original Pi - the one
with fewer I/O pins - doing a simple job in the
server room (inside an old drill-bit box). It'd been
working since forever. DID finally update the system
near the end, new SD card - and it still worked great.

The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.

> If raspberry updated their zero to those specs (or beyond) I would drop the
> radxa in a second since I expect that the git repository will become
> unmaintained in a year or two.
>
>>  If you really want an alt, consider Arch and
>>  derivs. Endeavour is nice. Manjaro works well
>>  (but, like Tumbleweed, kinda updates the ENTIRE
>>  system at the slightest change).
>
> Thank you for the pointers. Have made a note of this.

Just trying to predict the near future ... it's
not ALL so rosy.

On 12/7/24 2:54 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 23:33:14 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> I'm fine with Apache. You DO need to tweak more than one config file
>> these days alas - and HTTPS should be just a DEFAULT alongside HTTP.
>
> Do it with macros. I have a setup for a client involving running about
> half a dozen virtual hosts on a single machine. Each site definition is
> only two lines in the Apache config: one for HTTP, the other for HTTPS.
> The macro for HTTP adds an automatic redirect to HTTPS if enabled by a
> single parameter setting.

That'd work pretty good - and efficient if you wanted to
run multiple similar servers on one box.

Everybody seems to be pushing the newer alts. They WERE
crap initially -toys- but they HAVE improved. Used
Lighttpd on some PIs.

On 12/7/24 5:32 AM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 12/6/24 9:30 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2024-12-06, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 6 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, 6 Dec 2024 01:13:40 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>     Fedora still seems ok - as far as Fedora is OK. The
>>>>>>     Manjaro/Endeavour/Arch end is still OK. Never a fan of Slack,
>>>>>> but,
>>>>>>     who knows ...... gotta keep evading suckitude.
>>>>>
>>>>> Slack was my first distro. Download in pieces and copy to about 40
>>>>> floppies.
>>>
>>> When I decided to try Linux I went to the local bookstore and browsed
>>> the Linux books, comparing all the ones that came with an install CD.
>>> I liked Patrick Volkerding's book best, so I wound up starting out
>>> with Slackware 3.5.  I continued with it for several years (and
>>> upgrades), but the lack of a package manager required lots of
>>> application builds from source, which grew tiresome.
>>
>>
>>  Slack IS very "raw". There's some good, but a lot
>>  of bad, in that. You kinda have to be an OS fanatic ...
>>
>>  But I'm not 16 anymore.
>
> Thank you for the review. Then it is not for me. I don't mind _some_
> tinkering to improve things, but like you, I'm not 16 anymore and I have
> a business to run, so this I will remove from the list of my opensuse
> replacements.

The problem with 'tweaks' is that future updates WILL
wanna over-write half your hard work. Preventing that
is a job unto itself.

Anyway, Slack HAS its place - it's just not MY place.

>>> I tried several other distros, e.g. Mint and CrunchBang.
>>> Ubuntu was very easy to bring up, but when they switched
>>> to the Unity desktop in release 10, I decided it was time
>>> to move on.  I finally settled on Debian.
>>
>>  Well, you COULD get past Unity ...
>>
>>  My biggest objections were the 'services' they kept
>>  pushing hard - indeed could barely install it anymore
>>  without signing up (shades of M$ !). They also changed
>>  and/or moved around a LOT of config stuff for NO real
>>  gain IMHO.
>>
>>  Deb - WAS the Solid Foundation - but suddenly became
>>  just another 'Buntu.
>>
>>  So now it's Fedora and Arch derivs.
>>
>>  I've heard GenToo is kinda interesting ... and
>>  there are always the BSDs.
>
> I was very impressed with FreeBSD when I tried it out 1 year ago. The
> only thing missing for me was that in order to get anything faster that
> G-wifi, you had to run a small alpine VM with passthrough, since native
> drivers did not exist for FreeBSD.

Yep - they're "behind" in those respects. I don't
think they even support SAMBA 3, sometimes not
SAMBA 2. NFS works, but SAMBA has a LOT more
fine-grained options and is much better with
M$ workstations attached.

Servers with conventional wired networking,
just fine so far as it goes. Eval carefully
to see if the BSDs do what YOU need with
minimal angst. Linux skills are mostly OK
with Unix ... but it's not ALL the same.

> I tried to run a snapshot version, and faster than G-wifi did work, but
> something else was unstable, so I had to leave it for the moment.
>
> The laptop I tested it on was a (then) 1 year old Asus ExpertBook B5,
> and everything except the wifi worked flawlessly.
>
> The Freebsd handbook was absolutely amazing. The documentation is in my
> opinion, far, far ahead of linux. Suse does have some good guides
> actually, but I feel BSD is better.

The BSDs are very very good - for what they're MEANT for.
The docs ARE extensive - almost TOO .....

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

> Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact
> handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
> changes, and they are lost again.

Then they are very poor at generalization. My various machines have
Ubuntu, Fedora KDE spin, Lubuntu, Debian with Xfce, the Raspberry Pi OS
derivative of Debian, and Windows 11. They're all different and they are
all the same.

The thrill of hunting down xorg.conf wherever the distro stashed it so I
could get the right button for a left handed mouse or get a monitor
configured sort of wore out 20 or 25 years ago.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
> existing physics

When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric
model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.

On 12/7/24 18:40, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 11:27:09 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no idea
>> they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
>
> https://orthoinfo.aaos.org/en/treatment/total-knee-replacement/
>
> Pretty common. I know a couple of people who have had it.

Yeah, I know loads of people that have had their knees replaced, very
successfully. Often very active people, who return exercise like
cycling. Hip replacements can recover in weeks, knees take months.

My mother had both knees replaced and they lasted well for about 17 years.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
>>>> So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought forms
>>>> to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's just a bunch
>>>> of nice stories.
>>>
>>> Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical position
>>> here.
>>>
>>> What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
>>
>> With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from the
>> material world.
>
> Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?

There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>> die prematurely.
>>
>> True. But a model does not imply that there is no material world. In fact,
>> the success of our models is a strong proof of a material world.
>>
>
> I never said there wasn't a material world, juts that is nothing like what
> you think of as 'the material world' which is a figment of the imagination

I have admited and do admit that my state of the material world is most
definitely _not_ the true state of the world. It seems we alternate between
misunderstanding, and deep, spiritual understanding.

>>> That the models are the transform - the map - of some underlying
>>> externality
>> ... quantum, arguments we've been through before...
>>> I understand your need for security, but don't let it limit your thinking.
>>
> No. the need for security exists in almost everyone. People want simple
> truths. Certainties. The certainty of God, The certainty of a 'material
> world'. The certainty of 'social justice'

Well, from a Maslowian point of view you are right. Many people critique him,
but I actually think he came up with truths. Ok, maybe not _exactly_ a pyramid
and here and there, but the essence I think is pretty good.

>
>
>> I think that is insulting. Stop ascribing motivations or putting words in
>> my mouth. If you do not, I will reverse the process, and we will end up
>> killfiling each other or angrily ignoring each other. I would not like for
>> that to happen.
>
> :-)

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 22:07, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>> I think it can even happen spontaneously, and then there's near death
>>>> experiences as well.
>>>>
>>> The ultimate trauma...
>>
>> Yes, and boy is it fascinating!
>>
>>>> That brings me to the thought, since psylocybin and other mushrooms are
>>>> now starting to become so common, if there's something to be gained by
>>>> doing it the natural way instead of "shocking" the mind with external
>>>> drugs?
>>>>
>>> Depends on the person.  Drugs are supremely violent and the moment or
>>> revelations may well be too much for people to survive mentally intact...
>>
>> True. I would very much like to try, but I have madness in the distant
>> family
>> and I do not want to take any risk of jarring the good, old brain since it
>> might
>> be latent in me.
>>
>>> There isn't much point in achieving enlightenment if you are then unable
>>> to cope with daily life.
>>
>> This is another interesting thought experiment. We tend to sanctify saints,
>> saying they are the paragon of humanity. But would all of us becoing saints
>> really be a good end station for humanity?
>>
>> If I look at monks and monasteries, they decide (for the love of humanity)
>> to
>> move away and pray. If you look at saintly figures among the monks (the
>> "rock
>> stars" of spirituality) they tend to withdraw even more, and the brothers
>> take
>> care of them.
>>
>> Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human species
>> would
>> just slowly fade away.
>>
>>> "Before enlightenment, chopping wood, fetching water: After enlightenment
>>> chopping wood, fetching water"
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> True. From where is that quote?
>
> Standard Zen shit I think
>
>>
>>>> The reason I'm thinking about it is that I 've read about underground
>>>> trip-clinics where people get "hooked" on the spiritual experience of
>>>> merging with the universe. They want to experience it again and again.
>>>>
>>> Bliss junkies.
>>>
>>> It inst an escape. They probably gave em fentanyl. They knocked me out
>>> with that for my last operation. Wow!
>>
>> Yes, it does sound like junkies. They are only there for the instant
>> effects,
>> and not for the goal (to find god). I think, but am not sure, that buddha
>> strongly warned against blissful states, spiritual experiences, esp and so
>> on,
>> and said "just keep on meditating and do not let yourself be distracted by
>> that".
>>
> Yes. Very much so.
>
>> It would make a lot of sense if that is what he said, and it would also
>> make me
>> think that in fact, bliss junkies is exactly what they are, and that it
>> might
>> actually be harmful for them in the long run, even though they run around
>> feeling bliss all day.
>>
>>>> Contrast that with a buddhist monk who trained meditation for decades,
>>>> and then has his realization. He might be a kind and loving man, with
>>>> enormous compassion, continuing with his meditation and helping people.
>>>>
>>> Indeed.
>>>
>>>> The young man in the trip-clinic, goes there once a week to get his dose
>>>> of spirituality.
>>>>
>>> Or down the club for a bit of Ecstasy.
>>>
>>> There is a reason psychedelics are no longer in vogue. They don't
>>> guarantee a good time at all. In fact they can deliver a seriously bad
>>> one. Hence Ecstasy - a cross between an amphetamine and a psychedelic.
>>
>> I think transpersonal psychology and psychedelic therapy are trying to
>> mitigate
>> that, and make it for "everyone" by carefully monitoring the process and
>> the
>> doseages.
>
> Well good luck with that. I come from a rougher and less sympathetic age. If
> you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen.
>
>
>>
>>>> Is this good or bad? Is there a component that favours one or the other
>>>> method?
>>>>
>>> Depends on the person. I think you need to be very strong to survive any
>>> drug. But weak people are attracted.
>>
>> Only one way to find out! ;)
>>
>>>> I have a business colleague who is afraid of death. He went to an
>>>> underground clinic and took a trip, and for a week or two afterwards he
>>>> felt more in tune with the world and more spiritual and even hesitated to
>>>> kill mosquitoes out of compassion. But then the effect started to wear
>>>> off as life came back.
>>>>
>>> Psychedelics destroy your current world view. You can then find
>>> alternative ones, or end up with none at all, in a mental institution, but
>>> your normal one is a deep groove to escape from...its like they are a tool
>>> to modify the metaphysics. But they are no guarantee the modification will
>>> hold.
>>
>> I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering your
>> ego,
>> jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like the
>> gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug, might
>> shake it
>> a bit so it becomes unstuck?
>
> Mental illness from the psychedelic perspective is simply a bad metaphysical
> choice.
> People choose to believe something, perhaps not even consciously, that makes
> them dysfunctional and unhappy. But in some sense secure in their belief.
>
> "everyone is out to get me because i am in fact superior in every way, so I
> don't need to change my views at all, I am right, and they are simply wrong"
>
>
>
>>
>>> This is the world we have to live in - unless we are extremely permanently
>>> 'enlightened'
>>
>> True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
>> life
>> was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they would go
>> to
>> heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the church didn't
>> forbid
>> that way of "hacking the system"! ;)
>>
> Lol. Hacking the christian system
>
>>>> I don't know if it did anything long term, about his fear of death.
>>>>
>>>> For me, the tetrapharmakon is as good a treatment as any! =)
>>>
>>> "In my life, I have travelled many paths,
>>> into the bush and out of it
>>> But I am not anywhere.
>>> For me there is only the travelling on paths with heart
>>> On any path with heart
>>> And their I travel looking breathlessly"
>>>
>>> "But how can one know a path with heart?"
>>>
>>> "Any fool can know that, the problem is that no one asks the question"
>>
>> From where is this quote?
>
> The teachings of Don Juan - Carlos Castenada. A mixture of truth and fiction
> IMHO.

Thank you, will have to look it up to see if there is much food for
thought there.

On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 22:20, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 07/12/2024 17:27, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 07/12/2024 10:27, D wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-12-06, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I was recovering from a tumour operation at that point and was on
>>>>>>>> seriously concrete butt plugging pain relief.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I drank a couple of points of pear juice. Delicious. And unbeknownst
>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>> me Natures best laxative...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting.  I've found that peanut butter acts as a mild laxative,
>>>>>>> at least for me.  This is a Good Thing - I love peanut butter.
>>>>>>> I had a knee replacement yesterday, so I'll get to test it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Knee replacememt? I have heard of hip joint replacement, but had no
>>>>>> idea they do it with knees as well! In truth, science is mighty!
>>>>>
>>>>> A friend had it. She was an overweight NHS nurse, After 4 further
>>>>> operations to try and clear infection, she said when she contracted
>>>>> pneumonia 'don't revive me. I've had enough of pain'.
>>>>>
>>>>> I went to her funeral.
>>>>>
>>>>> Other people end up with amputations.
>>>>>
>>>>> Hip replacements are very successful though.
>>>>>
>>>>> Its something to do with the ability or inability to deliver antibiotics
>>>>> to the wound site
>>>>
>>>> Ouch! We must pray hard for success! In terms of pain and quality of
>>>> life, my mother was pretty relieved to finally let go after having
>>>> struggled with very painful cancer treatment for several years.
>>>
>>> Yes. I can appreciate that. Currently I have at least four chronic
>>> incurable conditions that may kill me in the end. I take the pills and
>>> keep going. Maybe I will die in a car crash instead.
>>
>> I will pray for that they might chance from incurable to curable with some
>> great scientific leaps in the future!
>
> Well a major transplant of 3-4 organs and a massive break through in cancer
> might fixe them all.
>
> But I am not holding my breath,.
> My body is simply worn out.

I'm sorry to hear that. =( I am way too well acquainted with that, as I
followed my mothers journey through that process.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Now imagine a planet of such people. It does sound as if the human
>> species would just slowly fade away.
>
> The dating of the Bhagavad Gita us controversial. One theory is it is not
> as old as claimed and was written after Buddhism became established.
> Gautama was a Kshatria, the warrior and administrator varna. As such, he
> attracted men from the same varna to lead lives as monks.
>
> The Gita gets more philosophical but in the beginning Arjuna is on a
> battlefield and is getting cold feet. His mentor, Krishna, tells him he is
> a warrior and that's what warriors do. Get with the program.
>
> The thought is the Gita was addressed to young Kshatriya to remind them of
> their role in society and not to abandon it to follow some monk.
>
> It will never happen but I'd really like to see Gabbard taking the
> Presidential oath of office with her hand on the Gita.

Fascinating theory! Would also be quite interesting if it were true, and
if they did see a risk that the best and brightest, due to buddha, would
just hang around meditating all day instead of protecting society. ;)

But there is this wonderful inflection point, where christianity went from
a personal mystic method to find enlightenment, to become a tool to
control and build society.

I wonder if the mystics lost because of 1. being more interested in the
"within" and personal experience than power and 2. the other guys being
more interested in power and cared nothing for god, but saw the
opportunity. I guess the 3. is St Paul fearing that christianity would
split into a 1000 pieces if the mystics with their own individual
experiences were allowed to continue.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:07:50 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I think it depends and can be anything from destroying it, shattering
>> your ego,
>> jarring it, or mildly "nudging" it. Maybe psychological illness is like
>> the gearbox getting stuck, and the mild jarring, or hit of the drug,
>> might shake it a bit so it becomes unstuck?
>
> Back in the day I did acid of dubious quality twice. The first was a bad
> experience, the second was better. I was alone for the second attempt.

Did the second attempt give you enlightenment or a new depth to life? I've
never touched any other drugs besides coffee, tea and alcohol, but I did
have a spontaneous explosion of love once when I was 15. I've had a few
mild echoes of that experience, but never anything close to the strength
of it since.

>> True. I often think that the reason christianity banned suicide was that
>> life was so bad in the middle ages, that if people truly believed they
>> would go to heaven after death, they would all commit suicide, if the
>> church didn't forbid that way of "hacking the system"!
>
> I don't think it was all that bad. People raised families and carried on
> obviously or we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Interesting. I mean of course it would vary with the region. But thinking
about medieval serfs, hounded by the nobility in northern europe, does
make me quite suicidal at least. ;)

> I'm reading a series by James L. Nelson set in 852 A.D. when Dubh Linn was
> a Norse settlement. It follows a small band whose leader only wants to
> grab some Irish loot, go home to Norway, and spend his golden years
> farming. It doesn't work out that was of course.
>
> One of the band is a berserker. He gets morose after battles when he
> survives since he wants a heroic death in battle to attract the Valkyries
> to take him to Valhalla.
>
> The Christians had to make a few edits to sell their goods to a warrior
> culture. I think I've mentioned Russell's 'The Germanization of Early
> Medieval Christianity' and the Heliand, a Saxon poem that had Jesus as the
> drighten of a war band heading to the hill fort of Jerusalem. The massacre
> of the Saxons didn't get the job done so they had to come up with a better
> spin. We still honer Woden's Day and turning the other cheek never got
> very popular.

True. I doubt they had christmas trees in jerusalem as well. ;) In fact, I
have an early memory from when I was a child looking at some childrens
jesus programs around christmas, when that question hit me.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:23:24 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> How come? Is it like a thing you feel constantly? Doesn't that get
>> annoying or is it more that you feel it if you consciously look for it,
>> but you otherwise forget it?
>
> https://www.stryker.com/us/en/trauma-and-extremities/products/gamma3.html
>
> It's mostly at night if I lie on that side. The head of the lag screw
> creates a pressure point. During the day it's rarely noticeable. For
> example I put the studded winter tires on today and had no problems wuth
> all the kneeling to position the jack, sitting to guide the tire on the
> studs, standing to torque the nuts, carrying the summer tires to in back
> of the shed, etc. Over the summer I was putting on 25 to 30 miles a week,
> mostly on mountain trails with no problem.
>
> The operation itself only requires two small incisions so it's minimally
> intrusive. I was up with a walker the next day. I took a Tylenol before
> the excursion but didn't notice any effect so I didn't bother after that.
>
> It took several months to get back to normal. I spent the time in rehab
> researching trike conversions or sidecars for the bikes j.i.c. I started
> with a push bike to get the required range of motion. The first few
> outings weren't very graceful on the dismount but I got the hang of it.
> Both the V-Strom and DR650 are pretty tall but with the Sportster I can
> step over the saddle.

Got it! Glad to hear it worked and isn't causing you any serious trouble!
=) I am starting to get a bit worried about my old father when there's too
much ice on the pavement. He did slip last winter on his way home from the
grocery store, but nothing serious. He's only a child though (73) so
plenty of more year to go!

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>>
>>>> Ohh... but that is not "raw" in my book. I do that myself on
>>>> opensuse and I very seldom use yast. So basically, what you are
>>>> saying is that it works like... "linux"? ;)
>>>
>>> Yes. Slackware is the nearest to just being Linux of all the
>>> distros (that install Linux, some of the FreeBSD's may be similar).
>>> If your preference is to edit /etc/resolv.conf to adjust your
>>> default name server, and edit /etc/init.d to change the default
>>> bootup, and so forth, it is more what you may be looking for than
>>> the others (all of which add varing levels a "you are an idiot, here
>>> let me hold your hand via this custom GUI" system on top).
>>
>> Sounds great! =)
>>
>>>> Maybe I should add slackware back to the list then, since what you
>>>> are saying just sound exactly like how I like to manage my
>>>> machines! =D
>>>
>>> Tis free to download, and you can install it into a VM if you wish
>>> to 'test out' at first (and don't have a spare machine to devote to
>>> 'testout').
>>>
>>> It also is one of the few left that is systemd free. And instead of
>>> the SYSV infinite field of symlinks for init, Slackware uses BSD
>>> style rc.d scripts (actual scripts you can edit). The provenance of
>>> SYSV sysmlink fields means it also will support those if you want,
>>> but the default is actual scripts that execute other scripts.
>>
>> Oh my... it just keeps getting better and better!! How come it
>> hasn't gotten any attention at all??
>
> Likely because 99% of the "computer using public" is *lost* without the
> "handholding GUI".
>
>> I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to
>> slckware to escape their systemd problems?
>
> I can't answer that one. You'd have to ask them. I don't dabble in
> either. First installed Slackware back when it was the "new and
> improved SLS" (Soft Landing Systems). Have stuck with it since.
>
>>>> I'm happy I started as early with linux as I did. I teach the
>>>> config file way to my students, and am furious when I learned that
>>>> the teacher who got the job after me, taught the students how to
>>>> manage linux with _only_ the GUI tools. Revolting! Also causing
>>>> them to miss out a lot about how the system actually works, and how
>>>> it was design to work. =(
>>>
>>> And that teacher is turning out students, much like the MSCE
>>> students, who only "know Ubuntu" (assuming they used Ubuntu) and the
>>> "Ubuntu way" and if tossed into a "non Ubuntu" system, become lost,
>>> because they really did not learn how things worked behind the
>>> "lipstick on a pig GUI".
>>
>> Yep, this is the sad truth. I, together with 2 colleagues, give a
>> cloud course that's after the linux course, and we do hard core
>> terminal work in that course. We've discovered that since they have
>> a monkey as the linux teacher, we have to start from scratch in that
>> course, thus losing valuable time. =(
>
> Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact
> handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
> changes, and they are lost again.
>
>> I will pray hard, that I manage to get back the linux course next
>> autumn. That way I can prepare them properly and teach them what the
>> terminal, files, scripting, and text files is all about! =)
>
> That will reduce the lost time in the 'cloud' course just to bring them
> up to speed to begin to operate.

True! I have another story from that school. My colleague is currently
teaching basics of networking, and he instructed the school to prepare the
students laptops with linux, so that he could then install GNS3 for labs.

Turned out they forgot, and that their IT admin only knows windows, so she
was very angry that she had to work over time figuring out with youtube
videos how to install linux on 43 laptops.

We lost a week in a 5 week course, and all students unhappy, and of course
they blamed the teacher for it, and not the school. =/

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:36:46 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I saw a documentary where an abbott said that she uses (abbess?) the
>> students answer to the koan to gauge the students spiritual progress.
>> Somehow that feels so strange to me, since enlightenment is an
>> individual phenomenon, so how can you build a "scale" based on the
>> answer to nonsensical questions? On the other hand, I'm not a student of
>> zen.
>
> Rinzai Zen is often criticized for the koan system. It might have worked
> at one point before it became formalized.
>
> https://www.amazon.com/Sound-One-Hand-Answers-Classics/dp/1681370220
>
> For only $11.99 in the Kindle edition you can get the teacher's edition.
>
> Soto Zen is more into just sitting (zazen).
>
> And then there is the Western spin. It can be traced back to Alan Watts,
> and alcoholic British expat, and through him to Christmas Humphreys, the
> founder of the London Buddhist Society. Then you get to Bennett, the Order
> of the Golden Dawn, Crowley, Annie Besant of the Theosophical Society, and
> other assorted nutters. D.T. Suzuki was also from that group and threw in
> his own spin.
>
> Filter it through a generation or two and you have Tricycle. Personally I
> prefer Rahula's take although he is often criticized as being too Western.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_the_Buddha_Taught

I'm no expert, but I'd say the sitting version sounds more "original". As
for Watts, I'm always skeptical of those kind of new ages guys, but very
often people seem to be huge fans.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, Robert Riches wrote:

> On 2024-12-07, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I've heard about devuan and antix, but how come none of those guys went to
>> slckware to escape their systemd problems?
>
> I might not be one of "those guys", but this is my journey as a
> refugee from systemd:
>
> - Based on notes and potentially fallible memory from 2013, I had
> been on Mageia 2. IIRC, it was the next version of Mageia that
> switched to systemd. I use RAIDs for main storage. My test VM
> installed fine, but when I tried to boot the test VM via
> systemd, it hung for several minutes and then booted into a
> very broken state. Some stuff (including filesystems) had
> timed out and not booted, while other stuff (including
> filesystems) had not. The tools to decipher systemd's binary
> journal (rather than plain-text logs) were not installed by
> default. The system was in "I've fallen and can't get up"
> condition. At that point, I decided I would be one of the last
> people on the planet to be using something other than systemd
> on my main machine(s).
>
> - I ran Debian 7 from late 2013 to mid-2018. It was great, but
> then Debian was overcome by the systemd virus, so my journey
> continued.
>
> - I ran Slackware 14.2 from mid-2018 to late 2018. Updates to
> the kernel were a royal pain, because the tools to generate an
> initrd with drivers for RAID are not even in IKEA-like state.
> I got tired of having to troubleshoot the manual initrd
> generation process on every kernel update. Every time,
> something else had gone wrong and needed to be figured out and
> solved. Fatigue set in.
>
> - In late 2018, I switched to Devuan ascii, then went to beowulf,
> then chimaera, and now daedalus.
>
> Along the way, I think I tried a couple of other non-systemd
> distributions. IIRC, one of them was too much like a toy, and
> another set up hardware in such a way that disks kept detaching
> and spamming system logs with messages about a disk going offline
> and being recovered, rinsing, and repeating endlessly.
>
> If Devuan continues to be viable, I'll probably stay here for as
> long as possible. If/when Devuan becomes non-viable, I'll try to
> find a viable Linux distribution with a variant of BSD as
> fallback.
>
> How's that for a long answer to a short question? :-)

Excellent! =) Thank you very much, very interesting to follow your
journey! =)

On 08/12/2024 05:31, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> On 12/7/24 6:59 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 06/12/2024 17:12, D wrote:
>>> If you postulate something which can never be known, it is kind of
>>> useless. It goes the same way as god, or a postulated first mover etc.
>>
>> And yet that is what people do all the time. In fact it is the
>> necessary foundation of thinking.
>>
>> All metaphysics - and we all use it, whether we understand that we do
>> or not -  is to assume the framework for our understanding, and use it
>> not because it is demonstrably true, but because it *works* for us.
>>
>> We don't  and can't *know* that time and space exist - at least in the
>> way we understand them, but they do *work* for us, the way we
>> understand them.
>
>   Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least
>   with the existing physics  :-)
>
Exactly. That was Karl Poppers point. We don't discover the laws, we
actually make them up, and if they work, we use them.

Mickelson-Morley rather gave the lie to a physically meaningful aether,
so it was dropped.

#

>   I suspect 'dark matter' will occupy a similar position.
>
:-) Probably

--
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and
wrong.

H.L.Mencken

On 08/12/2024 08:13, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:31:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Careful ... the "luminiferous aether" WORKED - at least with the
>> existing physics
>
> When Galileo was doing his best to piss off the pope Ptolemy's geocentric
> model gave more accurate predictions than the Copernican heliocentric
> model. Yes, it was complcated but it WORKED.

The epicycles are merely a co-ordinate transform of the heliocentric model.

Galileo's problem was his insistence that his model, was *real*.

A mistake scientists still make.

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On 08/12/2024 10:48, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 07/12/2024 21:48, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 07/12/2024 16:39, D wrote:
>>>>> So therefore, metaphysics doesn't really exist, except as thought
>>>>> forms to make us feel better (if we need that), in which case it's
>>>>> just a bunch of nice stories.
>>>>
>>>> Well you are starting to make clear a completely metaphysical
>>>> position here.
>>>>
>>>> What do you mean by 'really exist' ?
>>>
>>> With not exist, I mean s an unprovable, ideal reality separate from
>>> the material world.
>>
>> Ok like the place where 'natural laws' live?
>
> There is no place where natural laws live, in fact, the laws we know is
> just a process in our brains, describing (and predicting) events. They
> don't live in any dimension. There is no proof of that.

Isn't 'in your brain' a dimension?
--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

>> At redhat, the only things that is focused on is Openshift, as the ultimate
>> lock-in tool, so the OS just lives to the side in its own world.
>
>
> IBM has "different motives" when it comes to Linux.
>
> They will use what they want to use and then trash
> the rest.
>
> We're in the middle of that.

This is the truth! They've done it in the past, and I'm sure they'll do it
again. I wonder if they will sell of p and z/i eventually as well? Then the
transformation to a completely useless consulting organization would be
complete.

>> What is sad is that SUSE is doing the excat same thing. Their strategy
>> seems to
>> be to copy everything Redhat does, and do it worse. They now only focus on
>> rancher, and are leaving the OS to the side. They closed down their
>> openstack
>> and their ceph.
>
>
> Yea, (real)SUSE isn't worth it anymore.
>
> Ever tried OpenIndiana - formerly Solaris ? It's
> not really Linux or Unix but "familiar". Really
> not so bad.

I've heard about it, but I do not think they supported a laptop last time I
checked it out, and was VM-only, but perhaps things have moved in the right
direction!

> And there's always Plan-9 :-)

True! =)

It would be wonderful if some genius tried to pick it up from where it fell
down, and would be able to bring it to life, natively, on a fairly modern
laptop!

>> What they sadly don't realize is that the OS is their jewel. I would focus
>> on
>> that in the embedded space, they had a hueg lead in the SAP space, and see
>> if I
>> could grow up. But no... rancher and containers it is, and there redhat is
>> blocking them well with openshift.
>
>
> The pointy-haired bosses are only interested
> in quick PROFITS and CONTROL. No sense of 'mission'
> beyond that.
>
> I greatly fear when Linus drops out of the picture.

That will be a fascinating day! Only then will we fully understand the results
and his unique abilities as benevolent dictator for life. I would not be
surprised if the corporate vultures would step in and it ending up with forks,
slowly diverging into Dell-linux, IBM-linux, Google-linux etc. all of which,
over time will become incompatible with each other by design.

>>>>>  Switched to Deb - but now IT seems to have hired
>>>>>  a bunch of Canonical rejects .....
>>>>
>>>> Deb has been on my list to try, in case opensuse finally dies. I also
>>>> thought about trying Alpine linux but I do not know how much trouble musl
>>>> will cause me. Finally, if those do not deliver, I thought about actually
>>>> going back to some of my earliest experiments and try FreeBSD for day to
>>>> day use. Since I'm not a cutting edfe developer, I only need some basics,
>>>> which I think all are in the FreeBSD packages, so if they fixed their
>>>> wifi problem (I tried it 1 year ago and had to run a small linux VM for a
>>>> working wifi driver) it could definitely be a serious option. Oh, and
>>>> that would mean it doesn't drain the battery as well. But let's see. I
>>>> think I can stick with opensuse 15.6 for at least another 2-3 years, and
>>>> then they might kill the project in favuor of some container based crap.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Deb WAS the Solid Foundation ... until now. It became
>>>  just another 'Buntu IMHO. Tragic !
>>>
>>>  The BSDs are "usable" - really Not Bad. However remember
>>>  they are Unix, not Linux, so a lot of little stuff is
>>>  different. They also tend to be a few years behind when
>>>  it comes to drivers. The real target is SERVERS, not
>>>  desktops.
>>
>> True. BSDs are a bit behind, but since my main use case is office + light
>> scripting + some light servers stuff (backup, web server, etc.) BSDs should
>> be
>> fine I think. We will see in about 1-2 years when the time comes to leave
>> opensuse 15.6 behind.
>
>
> The BSDs might be just perfect for your needs. They
> are NOT so perfect for other people's needs - esp
> the gigantic 'desktop' users segment who expect tons
> of eye candy, GUI everything and anything plugged-in
> to Just Work.

This is the truth! As long as I can have some basic tools, vim, xfce, wifi and
decent battery life (oh, and suspend), I'm a happy camper!

> I've got FreeBSD in a VM right now - to refine the
> 'how to do it' trivia. DID get X and XCFE installed.
> Next step is to install on an N95 BMax mini-box and
> attach an external HD box. I'd like to use SAMBA but
> something weird CHANGED with that in the last year
> or two and I can't seem to bring up the shares -
> always permissions errors regardless. NFS works,
> but it's got less security and far fewer options.

It's not the classic version problem? When samba switched from v2 to v3 it
decided to break backwards compatibility. I have this problem with an old NAS.
When I install a modern opensuse, it cannot access it. I have to specify some
flag in order to get it compatible with v2 mode, otherwise it default to v3
mode, and cannot access the old NAS.

> Hmmm ... is it possible to 'dd' a VM into a usable
> bootable image on a real machine ? I've seen various
> 'answers'. MX has a utility for cloning the running
> install, it works well, but haven't seen that elsewhere.

I don't see anything that speaks against that being possible.

>>>  OpenSUSE/Tumbleweed ... DID get it to run on a Pi-4,
>>>  albeit a bit clunky sometimes because it isn't a
>>>  "light" distro. Pi-5s are WEIRD ... can't even get
>>>  a Fedora for those even a year on. Apparently the
>>>  boot-up chain of events is a huge kludge. HAVE
>>>  found instructions - pages and pages and pages
>>>  of them - WAY too old for that shit and half of
>>>  it would probably disappear on the next update.
>>
>> I have a radxa zero for my kodi/tv use, and I tried to get opensuse to run
>> on it
>> and it was not possible. The radxa zero, being some kind of chinese
>> raspberry
>> copy had horrible documentation, so in the end, the only thing I managed to
>> get
>> working was some kind of dev snapshot of debian in their git repository.
>
> Well, not all PI clones are equal. DID try an Orange PI
> and Banana PI. Close ... but not QUITE the same. It'd
> depend on your exact purpose. If you NEED all the I/O
> pins then stick to PIs, esp genuine PIs. If not then
> shop BMax/BeeLink mini-boxes. Did buy another Pi just
> a few weeks ago - but it's a Pi4, not Pi5. The pre-
> BookWORM distros will run on it.

The only thing I need is power, wifi and a very small formfactor, since it lives
behind my flatscreen TV, so it cannot be thicker than about 1 cm or so.

>> I would loooose for raspberry to develop an updated version of the pi zero.
>> That
>> is what the radxa is. I have 4 GB ram and 16 GB built in flash storage on
>> the
>> tiniest board. It was wifi and bluetooth, and kodi and 1080p runs well on
>> it.
>
> The P0 is an interesting variant. You could do a lot of
> useful stuff with the old Pi-1/2 boards and P0 seems to
> encapsulate that capability without much more BS.
>
> WiFi/BT/etc ... MIGHT take a bigger board - but the
> parts ARE getting smaller and better all the time.
> Expect a Pi0.1 eventually.
>
> When I retired I still had an original Pi - the one
> with fewer I/O pins - doing a simple job in the
> server room (inside an old drill-bit box). It'd been
> working since forever. DID finally update the system
> near the end, new SD card - and it still worked great.
>
> The new guys don't know Linux from their assholes so
> I don't know if it's still there ... they just pay
> M$ lots and lots of $$$ and if anything goes wrong
> they blame M$ or external vendors. Tragic.

This is indeed tragic! It will be fun to see the IT budget explode. It will also
be fun to watch them when Microsoft cloud services go down from time to time,
and all they can do is to have a coffee and wait.

Related to this, I'm currently working on selling software defined storage to
companies, and I have discovered that manufacturing companies are _very_
approachable to this argument and owning their own boxes. They know how much it
costs to sit around and wait for some cloud provider to get their act together,
vs just going down to the data center (or data wardrobe) and restart/change
what's not working.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 03:02:20 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> Yup. If they learn the handholding GUI, all they know is that exact
>> handholding GUI. Flip them to a different GUI, or if V3 of that GUI
>> changes, and they are lost again.
>
> Then they are very poor at generalization. My various machines have
> Ubuntu, Fedora KDE spin, Lubuntu, Debian with Xfce, the Raspberry Pi OS
> derivative of Debian, and Windows 11. They're all different and they are
> all the same.

You must not have had much experience with helping out 'typical users'
(i.e., often those who "just want to get their job X done on this dang
computer").

Move a button 40 pixels in any cardinal direction on their GUI, but
otherwise leave the label unchanged, and 40% of those users will be
unable to function until someone else shows them the new location of
the button.

A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.

On 08/12/2024 16:33, Rich wrote:
> A huge number of folks get by via little more than rote memorization
> for computer usage, and seemingly have zero ability to generalize.

I was always amazed at the database entry and access staff who could
touch type and absolutely had only one set of menus and no GUI on an
80x25 screen.

The speed they achieved because everything was the same every day was
amazing.

I wouldn't want someone moving the brake pedal on my car, either.

Gui crap is built by coders for coders.

Most people just want to click on Button A and get to their bank, key in
the security shit and pay their bills etc.

The GUI is actually a distraction

--
“Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit
atrocities.”

― Voltaire, Questions sur les Miracles à M. Claparede, Professeur de
Théologie à Genève, par un Proposant: Ou Extrait de Diverses Lettres de
M. de Voltaire