On 5/29/2024 1:25 AM, vallor wrote:

> I've build my Linux systems throughout the years, but this time, I'm
> old enough that I wanted a turnkey Linux workstation. (My time was very
> valuable when I bought it.)

heh!

Your OS testified differently.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:16:24 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I want EVERYTHING in FOSS to be NOT GuhNoo, so the vile Stallman can
> have a huge conniption and feel claustrophobic and run around whining
> that he's being subjugated by 'non-free' software.
>
> Unfortunately, many of the largest and best FOSS projects in the world
> are GPL-licensed.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_using_the_GPL_license
>
> (not that everyone of those is the best)

What I found remarkable, no sarcasm intended, is how few apps on that list
that I use. Pan, gcc, and the Linux kernel. I installed slrn on the
Fedora box but don't use it. I think it also has Konqueror by default.

Even for Python I use black or ruff instead of PyLint and they both are
MIT. Everything else is MIT, Apache, zero clause BSD, or something like
the Python license. Usually there iw working that they can be construed as
GPL if you really want to.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:59:54 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> From what I can tell, there is a GPL program for every task a person
> would care to do. That's an accomplishment, no matter how mediocre that
> software might end up being. It's good to know that people of limited
> means can still get software to complete the job.

One the other hand there are many excellent FOSS programs that aren't GPL.

On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:31:56 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 6/4/2024 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Remember, the big advance in Windows 95 was in actually having a
>> “Start” menu for the first time.
>
> Another feature for bereft-of-ideas GuhNoo/FOSS copycats to clone.

*nix systems had application menus some years before that. Remember they
had GUIs before Microsoft Windows even existed.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:16:24 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Unfortunately, many of the largest and best FOSS projects in the world
> are GPL-licensed.

Lessig’s Law: the one who writes the code, makes the rules.

On 6/6/2024 8:31 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:31:56 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 6/4/2024 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Remember, the big advance in Windows 95 was in actually having a
>>> “Start” menu for the first time.
>>
>> Another feature for bereft-of-ideas GuhNoo/FOSS copycats to clone.
>
> *nix systems had application menus some years before that. Remember they
> had GUIs before Microsoft Windows even existed.

"Microsoft first demonstrated a window manager to the press in September
1983."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_1.0

"In 1983, W Window System was ported to the VAXstation 100 (and, hence,
to UNIX)."

https://lunduke.substack.com/p/w-the-window-system-before-x-that

On 6/6/2024 5:13 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:16:24 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>
>> I want EVERYTHING in FOSS to be NOT GuhNoo, so the vile Stallman can
>> have a huge conniption and feel claustrophobic and run around whining
>> that he's being subjugated by 'non-free' software.
>>
>> Unfortunately, many of the largest and best FOSS projects in the world
>> are GPL-licensed.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_using_the_GPL_license
>>
>> (not that everyone of those is the best)
>
> What I found remarkable, no sarcasm intended, is how few apps on that list
> that I use. Pan, gcc, and the Linux kernel. I installed slrn on the
> Fedora box but don't use it. I think it also has Konqueror by default.
>
> Even for Python I use black or ruff instead of PyLint and they both are
> MIT. Everything else is MIT, Apache, zero clause BSD, or something like
> the Python license. Usually there iw working that they can be construed as
> GPL if you really want to.

Here's what I use just about every day:

SQLite public domain
SQLiteStudio GPL
Notepad++ GPL
Thunderbird/BetterBird Mozilla Public License
Python Python Software Foundation License
Office 2003 MS EULA.
SumatraPDF GPL and BSD
PyQt 5 GPL
Brave browser MPL-2
7Zip LGPL and BSD

Other than tweaking a perl script 25 years ago at work, I've never made
a cent of income from open source.

I used to really prefer paying for good closed source, but the greed of
the commercial vendors, often in the form of annual subscriptions, has
become a big turnoff. I rarely come across reasonable costs any more -
MS Office is one of the few low-cost options (it's really cheap if you
have some household members or friends to share it with).

Even a db tool that's $5 a month will cost you $300 over 5 years.

You wanna be shocked? Check out the cost of Toad software for Oracle:
https://shop.quest.com/682/purl-toad-for-oracle-subscription?x-adcode=PD

It's so outrageously overpriced they have a 'Justify Toad' page:
https://www.quest.com/products/toad-for-oracle/justify-toad-for-oracle-purchase.aspx

Probably Oracle db is the only closed source app I would pay for these
days (but only if I could make money with it).

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 23:34:15 -0400, DFS wrote:

SQLiteStudio GPL

I use DBeaver Community which is an Apache license. It does SQLite and a
lot more.

https://dbeaver.io/about/

Notepad++ GPL

I use gVim or VS Code depending. Bram Moolenaar, who died last year,
suggested a donation to ICCF Holland in Uganda. The Code license is not
GPL.

Office 2003 MS EULA.

For the very little office type stuff I do LibreOffice is fine. It's MPL.

PyQt 5 GPL

As I've discussed I use Pysode6 which is LGPL. The refusal of Riverbank to
use LGPL rather than GPL is the reason there is a PySide6.

MicroPython and Circuitpython are MIT. I have Thonny installed but don't
use it since I can do what I want with a VS Code plugin. The same for
Arduino Studio. I don't think either of those even mention a license.

Prior to Stallman most of what would be considered FOSS was tossed out as
is, where is. Stallman had a point about licenses in a legalistic world
but today the pendulum has swung back to non-GPL licenses.

On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 23:23:23 -0400, DFS wrote:

> "Microsoft first demonstrated a window manager to the press in September
> 1983."
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_1.0

And in the best vaporware tradition it was released in 1985 and, Gods, was
it a piece of work. I never worked with it but a friend who was more
farsighted than I jumped on the bandwagon. The documentation for
developers sucked and was mostly people whining to each other on a
Compuserve forum.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> some dumb fsck wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately, many of the largest and best FOSS projects in the world
>> are GPL-licensed.

Which benefits this dumb fscking hypocrite.

> Lessig’s Law: the one who writes the code, makes the rules.

Yep. If someone doesn't like it, they can take a hike.

--
"So sentient human beings should have their freedom restricted so that
some bits on a disk somewhere (source code) can have freedom instead."
- trolling fsckwit "Ezekiel", attacking the GPL

rbowman wrote:

>Stallman had a point

To put it mildly.

>about licenses in a legalistic world
>but today the pendulum has swung back to non-GPL licenses.

There is choice in licenses, and choice is always good.

--
"This choice thing is a joke." - "True Linux advocate" Hadron Quark

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 11:16:24 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>
>> I want EVERYTHING in FOSS to be NOT GuhNoo, so the vile Stallman can
>> have a huge conniption and feel claustrophobic and run around whining
>> that he's being subjugated by 'non-free' software.
>>
>> Unfortunately, many of the largest and best FOSS projects in the world
>> are GPL-licensed.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Software_using_the_GPL_license
>>
>> (not that everyone of those is the best)
>
> What I found remarkable, no sarcasm intended, is how few apps on that list
> that I use. Pan, gcc, and the Linux kernel. I installed slrn on the
> Fedora box but don't use it. I think it also has Konqueror by default.

I think the list, though large, is incomplete. For example, mutt is missing.

> Even for Python I use black or ruff instead of PyLint and they both are
> MIT. Everything else is MIT, Apache, zero clause BSD, or something like
> the Python license. Usually there iw working that they can be construed as
> GPL if you really want to.

--
Q: How do you play religious roulette?
A: You stand around in a circle and blaspheme and see who gets
struck by lightning first.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:31:56 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 6/4/2024 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Remember, the big advance in Windows 95 was in actually having a
>>> “Start” menu for the first time.
>>
>> Another feature for bereft-of-ideas GuhNoo/FOSS copycats to clone.
>
> *nix systems had application menus some years before that. Remember they
> had GUIs before Microsoft Windows even existed.

Heh, I remember seeing a demo of Windows 1 (1985). It was shit compared
to the Atari ST.

--
Stop! There was first a game of blindman's buff. Of course there was.
And I no more believe Topper was really blind than I believe he had eyes
in his boots. My opinion is, that it was a done thing between him and
Scrooge's nephew; and that the Ghost of Christmas Present knew it. The
way he went after that plump sister in the lace tucker, was an outrage
on the credulity of human nature.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Thu, 6 Jun 2024 23:23:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> "Microsoft first demonstrated a window manager to the press in September
>> 1983."
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_1.0
>
> And in the best vaporware tradition it was released in 1985 and, Gods, was
> it a piece of work. I never worked with it but a friend who was more
> farsighted than I jumped on the bandwagon. The documentation for
> developers sucked and was mostly people whining to each other on a
> Compuserve forum.

Good ol' Compuserve.

--
Like an expensive sports car, fine-tuned and well-built, Portia was sleek,
shapely, and gorgeous, her red jumpsuit moulding her body, which was as warm
as seatcovers in July, ...

On 6/7/2024 7:22 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 13:31:56 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/4/2024 7:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Remember, the big advance in Windows 95 was in actually having a
>>>> “Start” menu for the first time.
>>>
>>> Another feature for bereft-of-ideas GuhNoo/FOSS copycats to clone.
>>
>> *nix systems had application menus some years before that. Remember they
>> had GUIs before Microsoft Windows even existed.
>
> Heh, I remember seeing a demo of Windows 1 (1985). It was shit compared
> to the Atari ST.

That was before Windows gave you a career and a house and a wife.

On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:20:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I think the list, though large, is incomplete. For example, mutt is
> missing.

https://www.osgeo.org/about/what-is-open-source/

The projects under the OSGeo umbrella are all over the place. QGIS is GPL.
GDAL/OGR, which is used for many data conversion functions, is MIT.
OpenLayers is BSD. PostGIS, the spatial extension to PostgreSQL is GPL.
PostgreSQL itself is the PostgreSQL License, similar to MIT>

https://opensource.org/licenses

That's an extensive list of OSI licenses. Callong all lawyers...

RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote at 18:13 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On 2024-06-05, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>> RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote at 21:46 this Tuesday (GMT):
[snip]
>>> I'll say it one more time. If your goal is to play Windows video games,
>>> stick with Windows. For those of use who DON'T play Windows video games, and
>>> could care less about the bloated Microcrap Office Suite, Linux works well.
>>> I simply DO NOT have problems with Linux. Period.
>>
>>
>> Don't forget Adobe.
>
> I don't use Adobe anything. I have no need for it. But if there is something
> made by Adobe that you (or he) absolutely need(s) to use (and can you/he can
> afford to rent it by the month), then you'll (he'll) probably wnat to stick
> with Windows.

I don't either. I'm just saying that's another reason to stick with
Windows.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 16:54:52 -0400, DFS wrote:

> How did you get your 'entire new Windows system' binaries down to 2GB?

Wow, only 2GB, so it can’t be the entire OS.

Only on Windows ...

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 10:05:30 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I want to see if it becomes a pain in the ass.

But you’re already inured, desensitized, numbed after years, decades of
suff^H^H^H^Husing Windows. So how would you know when it becomes a pain in
a normal person’s arse?

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 16:54:52 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> How did you get your 'entire new Windows system' binaries down to 2GB?
>
>Wow, only 2GB, so it can’t be the entire OS.
>
>Only on Windows ...

You do realize these are highly compressed data files, not directly
proportional to what will be installed?

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-06-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote at 18:13 this Wednesday (GMT):
>> On 2024-06-05, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>> RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> wrote at 21:46 this Tuesday (GMT):
> [snip]
>>>> I'll say it one more time. If your goal is to play Windows video games,
>>>> stick with Windows. For those of use who DON'T play Windows video games, and
>>>> could care less about the bloated Microcrap Office Suite, Linux works well.
>>>> I simply DO NOT have problems with Linux. Period.
>>>
>>>
>>> Don't forget Adobe.
>>
>> I don't use Adobe anything. I have no need for it. But if there is something
>> made by Adobe that you (or he) absolutely need(s) to use (and can you/he can
>> afford to rent it by the month), then you'll (he'll) probably wnat to stick
>> with Windows.
>
>
> I don't either. I'm just saying that's another reason to stick with
> Windows.

That and AutoCad, which is another application they used to always mention
only working on Windows. Like that was a huge issue with most users.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Fri, 7 Jun 2024 07:20:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> I think the list, though large, is incomplete. For example, mutt is
>> missing.
>
> https://www.osgeo.org/about/what-is-open-source/
>
> The projects under the OSGeo umbrella are all over the place. QGIS is GPL.
> GDAL/OGR, which is used for many data conversion functions, is MIT.
> OpenLayers is BSD. PostGIS, the spatial extension to PostgreSQL is GPL.
> PostgreSQL itself is the PostgreSQL License, similar to MIT>
>
> https://opensource.org/licenses
>
> That's an extensive list of OSI licenses. Callong all lawyers...

Found out recently that you can use GitHub to get LICENSE files for
projects, and there's a facility for noting when a project is covered by a
license.

(There's a command-line app gh for interacting with GitHub, but currently the
damn 2-factor authentication, using a Microsoft app, seems to get in the way
and I will have to figure that out. Just installed it on Arch:

[root@mybox rtl66]# pacman -S github-cli
resolving dependencies...
looking for conflicting packages...
Packages (1) github-cli-2.50.0-1
Total Download Size: 9.89 MiB
Total Installed Size: 47.73 MiB
Proceed with installation? [Y/n]
Retrieving packages... github-cli-2.50....
9.9 MiB 902 KiB/s 00:11 [########################] 100%
(1/1) checking keys in keyring [########################] 100%
(1/1) checking package integrity [########################] 100%
(1/1) loading package files [########################] 100%
(1/1) checking for file conflicts [########################] 100%
(1/1) checking available disk space [########################] 100%
:: Processing package changes... (1/1) installing github-cli
[########################] 100%
Optional dependencies for github-cli
git: To interact with repositories [installed]
org.freedesktop.secrets: Store credentials in system keyring [installed]
:: Running post-transaction hooks... (1/1)
Arming ConditionNeedsUpdate...

Almost 50 Mb!)

--
Q: What is orange and goes "click, click?"
A: A ball point carrot.

On 6/7/2024 8:58 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 10:05:30 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> I want to see if it becomes a pain in the ass.
>
> But you’re already inured, desensitized, numbed after years, decades of
> suff^H^H^H^Husing Windows. So how would you know when it becomes a pain in
> a normal person’s arse?

Since you don't run Windows you don't know how unobtrusive Windows
Updates actually are.

I don't recall ever once being interrupted by Windows telling me it has
to install an update right now (or giving a non-dismissable countdown eg
30s to install an update and reboot).

That kind of interruption and reboot would be my pita test.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 06:35:05 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> That and AutoCad, which is another application they used to always
> mention only working on Windows. Like that was a huge issue with most
> users.

https://www.ubuntupit.com/best-autocad-alternative-for-linux/

I've never uaed any of them despite being a CAD* programmer.

* In my world CAD means Computer Aided Dispatch.

https://www.tylertech.com/solutions/courts-public-safety/public-safety/
computer-aided-dispatch

I do not work for Tyler but their website is handy. The acronym has led
to some amusing moments in job interviews where the applicant didn't do
his homework at exactly what the company does.

On Sat, 8 Jun 2024 08:56:28 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Since you don't run Windows you don't know how unobtrusive Windows
> Updates actually are.
>
> I don't recall ever once being interrupted by Windows telling me it has
> to install an update right now (or giving a non-dismissable countdown eg
> 30s to install an update and reboot).
>
> That kind of interruption and reboot would be my pita test.

On the contrary, I run Windows. First, except for a laptop if I'm
traveling all my machines, Windows or Linux, are up 24/7 and I seldom
close applications when I'm working on a project. It's always a joy to
find Windows has helpfully rebooted at 2 AM to avoid disturbing me and has
closed everything. Some come back, most don't.

The worst case was one of the Server releases where auto-updating was not
an opt in and had to be explicitly turned off. A client complained of
problems, usually around 3 AM. An examination of the event logs showed at
least their system was up to date.

On that note, getting many of are clients to apply updates is like pulling
teeth and it's a pain in the ass when it finally happens. Saying Windows
and five nines in the same breath is an oxymoron.