On 2024-06-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 07:45:46 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I don't see really see it. I think people have the right to patent
>> products (so that they can make a living making something they invented
>> — exclusively for a few years — so long as it's a real product and
>> they're not patenting a "concept" like Apple's "rectangle with rounded
>> corners"). I also think software can be copyrighted. I don't have to use
>> proprietary software.
>
> Patents and copyrights work in theory, not so well in practice. Between
> the patent trolls and people making money from copyrights that had nothing
> to do with the creation of the copyrighted property there is a lot of
> government sponsored grifting.
>
> One of my mentors was a fairly prolific innovator. He never patented
> anything since he thought it would make it easier for the idea to be
> copied. Hit the market, make your money, and move on to something else
> when the copycats arrive.
>
> Stephan Kinsella has some good arguments in 'Against Intellectual
> Property'.
>
> https://c4sif.org/

I don't think the concept of patents is bad, but the patent system is
definitely seriously abused. That's why I say that only a product that is
actually working (not an abstract concept) should be patentable. Apple
should have never gotten a patent for a "rectangle with rounded corners" for
example.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-06-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On 02 Jun 2024 15:41:08 GMT, Joel Crump wrote:
>
>> I'm a Democrat anyway, but Trump is far worse than other Republican
>> candidates we've had.
>
> Worse than George HW Bush, war monger and promoter of NAFTA? His idiot son
> that invaded the wrong country? Despite being a bull in a china ship,
> Trump didn't do as much actual damage as some of the previous Republicans.

And definitely not as much damage as Obama and Biden.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-06-02, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-06-02 2:27 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 07:50:28 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> I apologize to everyone but you about what I just wrote. I am frustrated
>>> that even in 2024 and having done research into the right distribution
>>> for my needs, I am yet again disgusted by the result. I love everything
>>> about Linux but the result, yet again, is pure demoralization. To read
>>> this idiotic zealot's words and his delusion that any of those 1990s
>>> UNIX distributions were actually pretty simply add salt to the wound.
>>
>> This is the very limited gamer distro that you tried to install? You can
>> always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs. I regularly update
>> Debian, Ubuntu, Lubuntu, and Fedora distros without all that drama.
>
> It's Fedora with tweaks. If you point to it as being bad, you might as
> well point to Fedora at the same time.

That makes no sense. You can't blame Fedora for tweaks that break it.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-06-02, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-06-02 2:47 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 14:34:23 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-06-02 2:27 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 07:50:28 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I apologize to everyone but you about what I just wrote. I am
>>>>> frustrated that even in 2024 and having done research into the right
>>>>> distribution for my needs, I am yet again disgusted by the result. I
>>>>> love everything about Linux but the result, yet again, is pure
>>>>> demoralization. To read this idiotic zealot's words and his delusion
>>>>> that any of those 1990s UNIX distributions were actually pretty simply
>>>>> add salt to the wound.
>>>>
>>>> This is the very limited gamer distro that you tried to install? You
>>>> can always tell the pioneers by the arrows in their backs. I regularly
>>>> update Debian, Ubuntu, Lubuntu, and Fedora distros without all that
>>>> drama.
>>>
>>> It's Fedora with tweaks. If you point to it as being bad, you might as
>>> well point to Fedora at the same time.
>>
>> Fedora repackaged by tweakers? Okay.
>
> Nobara Linux. Look it up.

I think his point was that it's not Fedora's fault that somehow else breaks
it with their tweaks. I'm guessing the user base is too small to properly
test it.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 15:56:21 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Nobara Linux

https://www.reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/174ldfz/is_nobara_any_good/

Mixed reviews. Maybe Glorious Eggroll didn't have your machine in mind.

On 02 Jun 2024 21:15:34 GMT, Joel Crump wrote:

> I supported the two Gulf wars and NAFTA, although in retrospect it
> became
> rather unclear, whether the second war was less harmful than the status
> quo in Iraq. I can admit I simply don't know, it was an untenable
> situation that turned into a questionable policy, countless casualties
> among Iraqi citizens and our service members.

You liked the giant sucking sound?

https://theconversation.com/the-giant-sucking-sound-of-nafta-ross-perot-
was-ridiculed-as-alarmist-in-1992-but-his-warning-turned-out-to-be-
prescient-120258

https://www.cfr.org/blog/twe-remembers-congresss-vote-authorize-gulf-war

Congress blinked but I remember Bush in that smarmy voice of his stating
that he was going ahead regardless of authorization. As the former CIA
head he was used to doing whatever he pleased.

There was a question at the time whether or not Kuwait was slant drilling
into Iraqi oil reserves and Iraq had been green lighted but that was
quickly buried as the MSM churned out the tired old stories of bayoneted
babies that had been dreamed up at Britain's Wellington House during WWI.
Everytime I hear one of those classics I know somebody is bullshitting.

As for Junior's reprise I never did figure out if Powell was set up or if
he was complicit. It's a good thing they never did find WMDs since they
probably would have a Made in USA label left over from the US proxy war
against Iran.

Hussein, like Gaddafi, wasn't a very nice guy but he did keep a lid on the
country. Now it's a failed state and the most corrupt in the neighborhood.
Again like Libya, the US destroyed the government and left it to be
replace by a vacuum.

Afghanistan was another adventure that accomplished nothing.

On 2024-06-02, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 13:19:52 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> I never said he did. He wants me to just give it to him. And he lies
>> his fraudulent, deranged ass off when he tries to persuade me to give
>> him my money.
>
> Trump never asked me for money but I've been getting begging emails from
> Joe and the Camel. Maybe they'll honor the unsubscribe request better than
> they do anything else.

I've gotten SPAM texts from both parties this year. "Melania Trump" and the
Trump juniors have sent me a few of these. Gee, what an honor.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 6/2/24 7:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
>On 02 Jun 2024 21:15:34 GMT, Joel Crump wrote:
>
>> I supported the two Gulf wars and NAFTA, although in retrospect it
>> became
>> rather unclear, whether the second war was less harmful than the status
>> quo in Iraq. I can admit I simply don't know, it was an untenable
>> situation that turned into a questionable policy, countless casualties
>> among Iraqi citizens and our service members.
>
>You liked the giant sucking sound?
>
>https://theconversation.com/the-giant-sucking-sound-of-nafta-ross-perot-
>was-ridiculed-as-alarmist-in-1992-but-his-warning-turned-out-to-be-
>prescient-120258

I just don't accept that we're competing with our neighbors. That's
primitive nationalism, fuck the primitive minds who cry about free trade.

>https://www.cfr.org/blog/twe-remembers-congresss-vote-authorize-gulf-war
>
>Congress blinked but I remember Bush in that smarmy voice of his stating
>that he was going ahead regardless of authorization. As the former CIA
>head he was used to doing whatever he pleased.
>
>There was a question at the time whether or not Kuwait was slant drilling
>into Iraqi oil reserves and Iraq had been green lighted but that was
>quickly buried as the MSM churned out the tired old stories of bayoneted
>babies that had been dreamed up at Britain's Wellington House during WWI.
>Everytime I hear one of those classics I know somebody is bullshitting.
>
>As for Junior's reprise I never did figure out if Powell was set up or if
>he was complicit. It's a good thing they never did find WMDs since they
>probably would have a Made in USA label left over from the US proxy war
>against Iran.
>
>Hussein, like Gaddafi, wasn't a very nice guy but he did keep a lid on the
>country. Now it's a failed state and the most corrupt in the neighborhood.
>Again like Libya, the US destroyed the government and left it to be
>replace by a vacuum.
>
>Afghanistan was another adventure that accomplished nothing.

We are the superpower, and opposing world cop wars is wishful thinking, what
I oppose is arming the Israeli regime to kill poor women and children.

--
Joel W. Crump

Joel Crump wrote:
> On 6/2/24 7:05 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On 02 Jun 2024 21:15:34 GMT, Joel Crump wrote:
>>
>>> I supported the two Gulf wars and NAFTA, although in retrospect it
>>> became
>>>  rather unclear, whether the second war was less harmful than the status
>>>  quo in Iraq. I can admit I simply don't know, it was an untenable
>>>  situation that turned into a questionable policy, countless casualties
>>>  among Iraqi citizens and our service members.
>>
>> You liked the giant sucking sound?
>>
>> https://theconversation.com/the-giant-sucking-sound-of-nafta-ross-perot-
>> was-ridiculed-as-alarmist-in-1992-but-his-warning-turned-out-to-be-
>> prescient-120258
>
>
> I just don't accept that we're competing with our neighbors. That's
> primitive nationalism, fuck the primitive minds who cry about free trade.
>
>> https://www.cfr.org/blog/twe-remembers-congresss-vote-authorize-gulf-war
>>
>> Congress blinked but I remember Bush in that smarmy voice of his
>> stating that he was going ahead regardless of authorization. As the
>> former CIA head he was used to doing whatever he pleased.
>> There was a question at the time whether or not Kuwait was slant
>> drilling into Iraqi oil reserves and Iraq had been green lighted but
>> that was quickly buried as the MSM churned out the tired old stories
>> of bayoneted babies that had been dreamed up at Britain's Wellington
>> House during WWI. Everytime I hear one of those classics I know
>> somebody is bullshitting.
>>
>> As for Junior's reprise I never did figure out if Powell was set up or
>> if he was complicit. It's a good thing they never did find WMDs since
>> they probably would have a Made in USA label left over from the US
>> proxy war against Iran.
>> Hussein, like Gaddafi, wasn't a very nice guy but he did keep a lid on
>> the country. Now it's a failed state and the most corrupt in the
>> neighborhood. Again like Libya, the US destroyed the government and
>> left it to be replace by a vacuum.
>>
>> Afghanistan was another adventure that accomplished nothing.
>
>
> We are the superpower, and opposing world cop wars is wishful thinking,
> what
> I oppose is arming the Israeli regime to kill poor women and children.

you're not the cops no more

On Thu, 30 May 2024 06:28:22 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-05-29 9:01 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 May 2024 07:45:05 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> So, you're suggesting that the people who were using 7-era machines
>>> magically migrated to Linux ...
>>
>> Whatever they did, they are not using Windows 7 any more, are they?
>>
>> So my point still stands: they are in a tiny minority compared to Linux
>
> Are the people who used kernel 1.x still using kernel 1.x?

The 1.x kernel series was obsoleted long before Windows XP came on the
scene.

If you want to draw some kind of apple-versus-orange comparison, at least
make them contemporary apples and oranges.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 07:44:00 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 9:34 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>>>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>>>> shall I give you some links?
>>>
>>> Feel free to do so.
>>
>> OSF Motif/CDE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7G-wIm-e8>.
>
> The fact that you find these things visually impressive is laughable.

“Methinks he doth protest too much.”

Remember what Windows looked like at the time.

Hint: Bill “No-Taste” Gates was in charge.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:34:55 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 6/1/2024 9:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> SGI:
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEoEXHM53oQ>
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctZ1m3rXBfo>
>
> "At an affordable $25,000 back in 1990, the Personal Iris can still be
> found in many companies in use as servers."

The Unix workstations were not cheap, but they did look good.

And with its fancy 3D hardware, SGI was probably the most expensive of
all.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 10:42:42 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Meanwhile, it looks as pretty as a worn shoe.

Remember what Windows looked like at the time.

On second thoughts, maybe you don’t want to.

On 02 Jun 2024 23:49:41 GMT, Joel Crump wrote:

> I just don't accept that we're competing with our neighbors. That's
> primitive nationalism, fuck the primitive minds who cry about free
> trade.

That's understandable given your outlook in general.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 22:12:56 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> I think his point was that it's not Fedora's fault that somehow else
> breaks it with their tweaks. I'm guessing the user base is too small to
> properly test it.

One reference said the original user base was Glorious Eggroll and his
father. Nothing wrong with that but I doubt he has a barn full of hardware
for testing. If the kernel tweaks, drivers, codecs, and gamer oriented
additions work on your particular system fine.

A more conservative approach would be to install Fedora and then add the
additional packages as needed.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 01:11:44 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v3j58g$3j4v3$4@dont-email.me>:

> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 08:34:55 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 6/1/2024 9:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> SGI:
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEoEXHM53oQ>
>>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctZ1m3rXBfo>
>>
>> "At an affordable $25,000 back in 1990, the Personal Iris can still be
>> found in many companies in use as servers."
>
> The Unix workstations were not cheap, but they did look good.
>
> And with its fancy 3D hardware, SGI was probably the most expensive of
> all.

It should be mentioned that when you helped out, and complied with
Slimer's request, he started posting about his obsession: Crump's ass.

I think this is one of those situations where "there's no accounting
for taste." There's also a bit of historical amnesia going on,
regarding what PC desktops had in terms of looks and capabilities
at the time.

My desktop (screenshots of which I've posted a couple of times
recently) is laid out similar to a Mac. That doesn't mean I _want_
it to look like a Mac, I just reasoned that when I sit on my
wife's Mac Studio, the desktop has the same layout (more or less),
so I steer the mouse in the right direction automatically.

Comments about how CDE looked are ridiculous, when one
realizes Windows 95's look and feel were based on a cut-down
version of Motif. Indeed -- at least for the HP9000 -- Microsoft
was among the copyright notices for the CDE.

BTW, I looked for a video demonstrating an Apollo workstation
desktop, but couldn't find anything. Probably too old...

--
-v

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 16:55:17 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
<665cdc33$0$1412905$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:

> On 6/2/2024 2:18 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 09:09:14 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/1/2024 9:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube
>>>>>> showing off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate
>>>>>> yourself, or shall I give you some links?
>>>>>
>>>>> Feel free to do so.
>>>>
>>>> NeXTStep: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn7qIl59MAQ>.
>>>
>>>
>>> "around $18,500 for the retail entry price point."
>>>
>>> https://allaboutstevejobs.com/blog/2012-09-04-how-expensive-the-next-
>> computers-actually-were/
>>
>> Your point?
>
> That for an exorbitant amount of money, you can produce graphics that in
> 34 years will make a Linux advocate look like an idiot.

I don't know where you get your delusions from, but here in reality with
the rest of us, AfterStep and GNUStep live on with the NeXT legacy. I
ran AfterStep on my desktop for many years, and I've thought about
going back...or maybe switching to Cairo.

BTW, my biz partner and I evaluated different OS's when we were doing
the research and development for our service. NeXTSTEP 486 was one OS we
tried. (Imagine if we'd gone with that!) We ended up on Yggdrasil Linux.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeXT

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yggdrasil_Linux/GNU/X

That was one Linux workstation that ran the service. It was actually
in two tower cases, the second case holding 8 SCSI CDROMs with
plenty of stuff for users to download. Then we added another host to
handle Usenet, which got most of its feed via PAGESAT.

At the time, there was both coopitition and competition in the
marketplace, and we were in contact with other sysadmins at other services
in the area. They thought we were crazy to be using Linux -- after all,
Sun workstations were professional, and Linux was "just a hobby OS".

Now most of the computing world runs on Linux.

--
-v

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 02:24:42 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> BTW, I looked for a video demonstrating an Apollo workstation desktop,
> but couldn't find anything. Probably too old...

They were acquired by HP, I think roughly around the time X11 came on the
scene. Before that, they were running their own not-quite-Unix OS, called
“Domain” (or was it “Aegis”? I see both names used in contemporary docs).
I guess after the HP acquisition they were completely absorbed into HP’s
Unix workstation division.

So if you want distinctive Apollo desktops, you’ll need to go back to
maybe the early/mid 1980s. Back then, SGI had its own GUI too, called
“mex” (which, believe it or not, was short for “Maximum EXposure”).

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 09:09:14 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 6/1/2024 9:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> NeXTStep: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn7qIl59MAQ>.
>
> "around $18,500 for the retail entry price point."

Remember, back then Unix was about quality, while Windows was about
quantity.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 02:44:45 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:

> ... we were in contact with other sysadmins at other
> services in the area. They thought we were crazy to be using Linux --
> after all, Sun workstations were professional, and Linux was "just a
> hobby OS".

After Windows NT destroyed the Unix workstation business, Sun continued
making a profit for a few more years by selling Internet servers. I guess
it took that long for the word to spread around that a Linux-based open-
source stack could do everything a “proper Unix” could do, and do it on
low-cost x86-based commodity hardware for zero licensing costs.

For some reason this was never done with the BSDs ...

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 10:55:21 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> And those NeXT computers were mostly useless ...

Fun fact: the World Wide Web originated on NeXT machines.

NeXT also popularized the concept of object-oriented GUI toolkits,
including “Interface Builder”, a GUI tool to allow you to construct GUIs
for your own apps.

The NeXT UI was widely regarded as one of the nicest looking around, even
in monochrome. Remember, the company was founded by Steve Jobs; with his
track record, he was eminently qualified to claim that Microsoft’s Bill
Gates had “no taste”.

And to top it off, consider that many of the NeXT ideas ended up in Mac OS
X.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:47:00 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 3:27 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 06:54:24 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Win11 is their best yet, but it's not better than Cinnamon.
>>
>> It’s also pretty hopeless against the Steam Deck.
>
> You seem to be unaware of the fact that ASUS, MSI and Lenovo have
> released competitors to the Steam Deck ...

Yes, they have been trying to compete for the past two years. And
Microsoft has been demoing some kind of “Handheld Mode” GUI for Windows
for about that long, but still doesn’t have anything to ship.

On 30 May 2024 19:44:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Nothing wrong with Beetle and I sort of liked the Type 14 Ghias but they
> sure as hell weren't Porsches.

You do know that the original Beetle was designed by Porsche?

On 2 Jun 2024 18:27:18 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I regularly update Debian, Ubuntu, Lubuntu, and Fedora distros without
> all that drama.

So do I. And I run Debian “Unstable” on my own machines. Just for the fun
of it.

On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 08:38:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v3jvdi$3qduu$12@dont-email.me>:

> On Mon, 3 Jun 2024 02:24:42 -0000 (UTC), vallor wrote:
>
>> BTW, I looked for a video demonstrating an Apollo workstation desktop,
>> but couldn't find anything. Probably too old...
>
> They were acquired by HP, I think roughly around the time X11 came on
> the scene. Before that, they were running their own not-quite-Unix OS,
> called “Domain” (or was it “Aegis”? I see both names used in
> contemporary docs).
> I guess after the HP acquisition they were completely absorbed into HP’s
> Unix workstation division.
>
> So if you want distinctive Apollo desktops, you’ll need to go back to
> maybe the early/mid 1980s. Back then, SGI had its own GUI too, called
> “mex” (which, believe it or not, was short for “Maximum EXposure”).

Point being, the wintrolls knew very little of the pedigree
of Unix workstations until they were schooled.

That includes the "concern wintroll" kook.

AfterStep example from 1997:

https://imgur.com/N3X884j

--
-v