On 6/1/2024 8:32 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> chrisv wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> vallor wrote:
>>
>>> A glimpse of CDE:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/01lp3vQ2VLs?t=272
>>
>> At my job, we used to have a couple of Sun workstations that were used
>> to test our Sbus products. My God, they were slow.
>
> When I lived in LA, early 90's, I had a low-end Sun workstation.
> The graphics, though black-and-white only, were pretty nice.
>
> You could also take a screenshot of someone else's workstation :-)

Without their knowledge or permission?

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 07:00:47 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> I'll say this much. Even though I've known this for more than a decade,
> it's remarkable how easily every Linux distribution I try detects the
> printer on my network. It might not use the best driver for the job, but
> if I need to print immediately, paper with my document will come out of
> the printer a minute after I've installed the system. Heck, it'll do so
> while I'm using the test environment. If I'm unsatisfied with the driver
> it uses, I can easily just change it afterwards.

I print something about once a year or even less frequently. When I had to
print a reservation confirmation this spring I was amazed when I turned on
the aging laser printer, plugged it into the USB port on the Ubuntu, and
hit Print that it all worked.

Even at work I seldom print hardcopy and it used to be a royal pita with
Linux and hardly any better with Windows.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:42:06 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Thank you for that. Just reading that encourages me to move to Linux and
> its formats and remain there. I believe the documents I myself create
> should use open formats. The only thing I'm wondering now is whether my
> faith is what drove me to be interested in Linux or the inverse.

That would be a different approach but I can see possible links. I find
the Catholic social doctrine stemming from De Rerum Novarum as very
balanced and reasoned analysis of the problems of communism/socialism and
unbridled capitalism. While it is rooted in the theology I can accept it
without the theology.

Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>> Great post, Slime!
>
>Then why snip it? Is there anything in there you disagree with?

It was long, and no.

You don't mind if I call you Slime, right?

--
"MS is installed for a reason : people wanted it." - "True Linux
advocate" Hadron Quark

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:22:43 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Actually, at one point, the only difference between the two was (IIRC) a
> Registry entry :-D

I have a book, obsolete now, that was a dictionary of the Windows
Registry. I can't find a current equivalent. There are many keys that
control behaviors that aren't in the registry. You can create them and set
the values but first you have to know the key exists.

One example I remember is the cmd console in Windows 2000 didn't have tab
completion but it could be enabled if you knew the option existed. It
sticks in my mind because I thought it was a particularly stupid default.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 08:32:44 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> You could also take a screenshot of someone else's workstation

If 'xhost +' was set you could have all sorts of fun. We set it so we
could run on AIX and display on the Linux box but it left you wide open.
people tend to get confused about the client/server relationship on X.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 11:52:05 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 6/1/2024 8:32 AM, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> chrisv wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> vallor wrote:
>>>
>>>> A glimpse of CDE:
>>>>
>>>> https://youtu.be/01lp3vQ2VLs?t=272
>>>
>>> At my job, we used to have a couple of Sun workstations that were used
>>> to test our Sbus products. My God, they were slow.
>>
>> When I lived in LA, early 90's, I had a low-end Sun workstation. The
>> graphics, though black-and-white only, were pretty nice.
>>
>> You could also take a screenshot of someone else's workstation :-)
>
> Without their knowledge or permission?

https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Xhost

'xhost +' was pretty common in a work environment. In our shop all the
Linux boxes had the same root password. I had the same password for about
20 years as did most of us with a convention that was easy to figure out.
Life was much simpler.

On 2024-06-01 13:07, chrisv wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>>> Great post, Slime!
>>
>> Then why snip it? Is there anything in there you disagree with?
>
> It was long, and no.
>
> You don't mind if I call you Slime, right?

Considering how long I've been here, we might as well be on a first name
basis. Andre will be fine.

On 30 May 2024 21:11:34 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> My first choice for this box was Kubuntu but I had problems with the iso
> and wound up with Ubuntu.

The difference is just down to packages.

On my old Asus Eee 701 PC (the one that could run rings around Windows
Vista with 3D effects), I did an Ubuntu install, then just added

apt-get install kubuntu-desktop

and that was enough to give me the option to login with KDE.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>> shall I give you some links?
>
> Feel free to do so.

SGI:
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEoEXHM53oQ>
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctZ1m3rXBfo>

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>> shall I give you some links?
>
> Feel free to do so.

NeXTStep: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn7qIl59MAQ>.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>> shall I give you some links?
>
> Feel free to do so.

OSF Motif/CDE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7G-wIm-e8>.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>> shall I give you some links?
>
> Feel free to do so.

BeOS <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzosnPSETzk> -- not technically a
“Unix”, but still a good example of a state-of-the-art GUI anyway.

On 31 May 2024 19:07:52 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> Le 28-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
>>
>> Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to
>> obsolete, unsupported software?
>
> If it's not broken don't fix it.

The inevitable consequence of that is, you want until it’s broken to try
to fix it, and discover that you don’t know how to.

On 1 Jun 2024 17:12:56 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I have a book, obsolete now, that was a dictionary of the Windows
> Registry. I can't find a current equivalent. There are many keys that
> control behaviors that aren't in the registry. You can create them and
> set the values but first you have to know the key exists.
>
> One example I remember is the cmd console in Windows 2000 didn't have
> tab completion but it could be enabled if you knew the option existed.
> It sticks in my mind because I thought it was a particularly stupid
> default.

It’s funny, isn’t it, that Windows zealots complain about Linux being
somehow hard to setup/configure, but at least it doesn’t have the horror
that is the Windows Registry: on Linux, configuration is in nicely-laid-
out text files, that you can not only edit, but you can use standard file
utilities on, like diff to compare versions. This way, you don’t have to
describe configuration changes that people need to make: you can post
actual diffs.

On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:05:30 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Nobody is claiming that Linux isn't better in that respect. However, the
> reason it takes so little time is because people aren't using an ISO
> from four years ago to install Linux and then update, which is what
> they're usually doing with Windows. Even with Linux, doing such a thing
> would be a nightmare to update.

Even then, Linux is not a “nightmare to update”. Remember, you can
continue using the system even while updates are in progress, because
Linux doesn’t lock files like Windows does.

And the Linux updates tend to be a lot smaller, for some reason: it’s like
Windows forces you to download an entire new system install every Patch
Tuesday.

On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>> shall I give you some links?
>
> Feel free to do so.

Sun’s “Project Looking Glass”
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpjaV7G-J-k>.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 01:40:13 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> It’s funny, isn’t it, that Windows zealots complain about Linux being
> somehow hard to setup/configure, but at least it doesn’t have the horror
> that is the Windows Registry: on Linux, configuration is in nicely-laid-
> out text files, that you can not only edit, but you can use standard
> file utilities on, like diff to compare versions. This way, you don’t
> have to describe configuration changes that people need to make: you can
> post actual diffs.

At least they got away from storing application configuration data in the
registry although there still are some old school apps that do so. The
default is a JSON file in the same directory as the executable. Every
configurable option for that app is in the file. It takes a little
discipline so there aren't secret little options or obsolete values aren't
left in the template but with care it's self-documenting.

The legacy stuff uses an ini style file. Some apps that usually work with
the defaults may not even be in it, and the whole menu for an app
generally isn't. It's also a treasure trove of puzzling behavior when
people add options and misspell them.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 01:37:43 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 31 May 2024 19:07:52 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>
>> Le 28-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to obsolete,
>>> unsupported software?
>>
>> If it's not broken don't fix it.
>
> The inevitable consequence of that is, you want until it’s broken to try
> to fix it, and discover that you don’t know how to.

The are variations on the theme but I recently read a suggestion that you
should write your code so whne it breaks at 3 AM and the phone rings you
can figure out what you were trying to do.

On Sun, 2 Jun 2024 01:18:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On my old Asus Eee 701 PC (the one that could run rings around Windows
> Vista with 3D effects), I did an Ubuntu install, then just added

I went with Q4OS and the Trinity desktop. It isn't something I would use
every day but some of my attempts ran out of (miniscule) room.

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/forums/topic/211502-first-impressions-q4os-
the-linux-distro-trying-to-be-windows-xp

On 2024-06-02, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:05:30 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> Nobody is claiming that Linux isn't better in that respect. However, the
>> reason it takes so little time is because people aren't using an ISO
>> from four years ago to install Linux and then update, which is what
>> they're usually doing with Windows. Even with Linux, doing such a thing
>> would be a nightmare to update.
>
> Even then, Linux is not a “nightmare to update”. Remember, you can
> continue using the system even while updates are in progress, because
> Linux doesn’t lock files like Windows does.
>
> And the Linux updates tend to be a lot smaller, for some reason: it’s like
> Windows forces you to download an entire new system install every Patch
> Tuesday.

When you first install Linux, sometimes the first update is bigger than
Windows updates — it still takes whole lot less time, no matter how big. I
have no idea why Microsoft can't figure out how to do updates. Inferior OS
is the only conclusion I can come to.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-06-01, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:42:06 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> Thank you for that. Just reading that encourages me to move to Linux and
>> its formats and remain there. I believe the documents I myself create
>> should use open formats. The only thing I'm wondering now is whether my
>> faith is what drove me to be interested in Linux or the inverse.
>
> That would be a different approach but I can see possible links. I find
> the Catholic social doctrine stemming from De Rerum Novarum as very
> balanced and reasoned analysis of the problems of communism/socialism and
> unbridled capitalism. While it is rooted in the theology I can accept it
> without the theology.

I don't see really see it. I think people have the right to patent products
(so that they can make a living making something they invented — exclusively
for a few years — so long as it's a real product and they're not patenting
a "concept" like Apple's "rectangle with rounded corners"). I also think
software can be copyrighted. I don't have to use proprietary software.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-06-01 9:22 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>>> shall I give you some links?
>>
>> Feel free to do so.
>
> SGI:
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEoEXHM53oQ>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctZ1m3rXBfo>

I immediately got the same kind of orgasm Joel Crump gets whenever he
sees a man's "girl anus."

On 2024-06-01 9:23 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>>> shall I give you some links?
>>
>> Feel free to do so.
>
> NeXTStep: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bn7qIl59MAQ>.

And now I got so hard that the entire area around my crotch just
exploded, leaving absolutely nothing.

On 2024-06-01 9:34 p.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 1 Jun 2024 06:34:55 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> On 2024-06-01 12:11 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> You have no idea, do you? There are lots of clips on YouTube showing
>>> off those 1990s-era Unix systems. You want to go educate yourself, or
>>> shall I give you some links?
>>
>> Feel free to do so.
>
> OSF Motif/CDE <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tR7G-wIm-e8>.

The fact that you find these things visually impressive is laughable. I
don't see any point to reading any of your posts anymore. You're clearly
a zealot, and there is no redeeming you.

For what it's worth, I installed Nobara yesterday because it was based
on Fedora and aimed at gamers. Nobara encourages people to use its own
packages rather than Flatpaks and what not because they have apparently
optimized everything. In less than a day, here are the problems I faced:

1) Before I even install, the most current ISO I pulled from Nobara's
page tells me that it is past its support schedule.
2) Nobara's installation scheme ignores my keyboard changes, insisting
that I use the US keyboard.
3) After updating my system, it requires restarts. Atter restarting, the
system won't let me in unless I use a rescue environment.
4) After I get in, it requires more updates which require yet another
reboot.
5) I follow every one of the recommended steps, each of which require a
reboot. Every second update freezes the machine at reboot, requiring a
forced shutdown to sort it out.
6) Once everything is sorted out, I log into every one of my game
providers through the Lutris installation Nobara provides. Everything
logs in but Lutris can't see any of the games in any of my libraries.
Not Something the Flatpak of Lutris never had trouble seeing.
Close/open/close/open the application, and the problem remains.
7) Playing a video with Dragon player works fine. Playing a video with
either the Flatpak or Nobara version of VLC results in a black screen
with sound. Remove the NVIDIA drivers and it works, but if you use the
proprietary drivers, you get nothing.

Wonderful stuff, clearly. So much worse than Microsoft. As DFS would
saY: Microsoft is doomed.

On the bright side, it immediately detected that my machine was an Asus
and offered the asusctl package without any kind of effort. There is
something there to like, but the complete lack of polish is
demoralizing. To be honest, calling it a lack of polish would be a
compliment. The experience is pretty much like what I said to Ahlstrom:
it's like using a Pontiac Sunfire when you have access to a Porsche.