On 5/30/24 6:45 PM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>On 2024-05-30 6:06 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 09:45:08 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> That *isn't* true, first of all, trans women sometimes are top or
>>> versatile, my GF is not, though, I've talked to her about that and she's
>>> not into it. But I will suck her dick, so, big difference there.
>>
>> TMI.
>
>What an utter, complete idiot.

You are, phobe, perfect self-description.

--
Joel W. Crump

On 2024-05-31, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 04:36:59 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> Yep. I've always been more substance over surface. But, as you say,
>> "surface" sells. (Just not to me.)
>
> Speaking of which, I'm getting daily spam from M$ trying to sell me the
> new Surface.

Is this one of the CoPilot Plus laptops?

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> rbowman wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 31 May 2024 04:36:59 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> Yep. I've always been more substance over surface. But, as you say,
>>> "surface" sells. (Just not to me.)
>>
>>Speaking of which, I'm getting daily spam from M$ trying to sell me the
>>new Surface.
>
> Google wants me to upgrade my phone to an 8a. Only $200! So cheap
> that I was tempted, but my 3a XL works just fine.

I'm still using a Pixel 3a (non XL — I purposely picked the 3a because it
was slightly smaller than most of the others). Once the battery dies, I'm
pretty sure I won't even get another smartphone. I'll just transfer the
number to a flip phone.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-05-31 12:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-30 4:07 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 08:55:21 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Generally, I wouldn't be worried that drivers for the hardware used on
>>>>> Linux-minded laptops would be available. However, I wouldn't be
>>>>> surprised if I faced the same kind of issues using Windows on a Linux
>>>>> machine that I had using Linux on a Windows machine. Problems waking
>>>>> from sleep, graphical errors and things of the sort are very likely to
>>>>> happen.
>>>>
>>>> The oddity I see with my Acer laptop with an open WSL session is Hyper-V
>>>> crashes if it sleeps. It will hibernate with no problem and the couple of
>>>> seconds difference in startup isn't a problem.
>>>
>>> I think that there are a number of issues with the way Windows 11
>>> sleeps. I'm not sure what they changed from 10, especially since they
>>> both use Modern Standby by default, but it seems to be fairly chaotic
>>> for hardware.
>>
>> I think Microsoft has lost interest in trouble shooting hardware drivers. I
>> think their money (and time) is being spent on developing AI crap. It
>> definitely seems to be their priority.
>>
>> Even SoftMaker is touting AI for their newest office suite. They advertise
>> it as a "feature," to me it simply means I'll never upgrade to a newer
>> version.
>
> Funny that you should mention office suites. I was curious about what
> Catholicism believes about current technology and how it views
> proprietary and open-source software. Officially, the stance is that
> Catholicism has no issue with proprietary software but that it must
> resist closed formats entirely since these would be at odds with
> allowing people to freely obtain knowledge in whatever form. As such,
> only LibreOffice, or an office suite using OpenDocument by default,
> respects the faith. Perhaps you would want to take this into
> consideration if, like me, your faith is becoming increasingly important.

SoftMaker is proprietary software, but it supports open documents (in
addition to their own format and M$'s format), so I don't see where there is
an issue with using it.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 05:07:45 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>
>> I've basically lost track of Windows and its current releases. For
>> example,
>> I had no idea the NT kernel was still around or at 10.0. I guess the old
>> Windows 95, 98, XP line ended with Me. (Another OS release Microsoft
>> would probably like to forget.)
>
> Yeah, 95, 98, and ME were the last 'consumer' releases, or I should say
> the last that didn't use the NT kernel, and NT 4.0 was the last
> 'enterprise' version that came up was a splash screen that explicitly said
> NT.
>
> It took Outlook Express, which had nothing in common with Outlook, a
> little longer to die. I think XP was the last of it.

I guess I got the order wrong. For some reason I was thinking XP came before
ME, but XP was to ME what Windows 7 was to Vista and Windows 10 was to
Windows 8. Successful attempts to restore confidence in their OSes after
poor releases.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-05-30 11:50 p.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-30 10:51 a.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-05-30 7:47 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-29, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29 11:23 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29 1:42 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 May 2024 08:10:01 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Funny enough, the guy I worked with who was a Linux die-hard also used
>>>>>>>>>>> the rotating cube to "convince" me that Linux was better. My only
>>>>>>>>>>> response to him was "that's pretty, how is this better than pressing
>>>>>>>>>>> alt-tab?"
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Alt-tab is just for switching windows within a desktop.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On KDE, I also have keyboard shortcuts for switching desktops.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (You know about multiple desktops? A feature which the *nix world has had
>>>>>>>>>> since the days of OSF Motif/CDE, which Microsoft is now trying to emulate
>>>>>>>>>> but still can’t get right?)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The desktop cube, wobbly windows, disintegrating windows ... that’s all
>>>>>>>>>> just bling for inducing Linux-envy among Windows sufferers.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point here is that switching desktops is a useless feature for most
>>>>>>>>> users. Zealots like you swear by them, but most people see nothing wrong
>>>>>>>>> with just minimizing a window and switching from one application to
>>>>>>>>> another by using alt-tab. Once again, you completely miss the point
>>>>>>>>> because of your zealotry.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm guessing that most people who don't use multiple desktops are ignorant
>>>>>>>> about how useful this feature is. This was one of the first things that
>>>>>>>> attracted me to Linux when moving over from Windows. Separate desktops for
>>>>>>>> separate jobs. I use this feature constantly.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It might be useful for some, but most people won't see a point to them.
>>>>>>> If you want one desktop for media consumption, one for gaming and one
>>>>>>> for word processing, knock yourself out. Most people will just put the
>>>>>>> applications for all three categories in the same desktop and minimize
>>>>>>> whatever they're not using.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Less efficient, in my opinion.
>>>>>
>>>>> Tell yourself that a lot of people see minimizing an application to be
>>>>> more efficient because it ends up consuming less power, CPU and RAM than
>>>>> one that's constantly open in a virtual desktop.
>>>>
>>>> Minimizing a window generally doesn't cause the application to use less CPU or
>>>> memory. Same with an application not visible because it's in another virtual
>>>> desktop. Also depends what the application does in the background vs
>>>> updating an open window.
>>>>
>>>> Besides, I think Ron means it's more efficient for his workflow.
>>>
>>> No, I am right. <https://shorturl.at/iByNk>
>>>
>>> It might be different in Linux, but that would only explain why battery
>>> life is so poor on a Linux machine as compared to Windows on the same
>>> hardware.
>>
>> Which happens to NOT be true on my laptops. Windows always runs hotter and
>> louder on the same machine — resulting in poorer battery life. I'm guessing
>> the case is different for you because you play Windows games and, since they
>> have to be emulated, Linux has to do more to get them working on your
>> hardware.
>>
>> That's the problem with generalizations, they're often wrong.
>
> It's not about the games at all and not even my own experience. Other
> people with Windows hardware have demonstrated that their machines don't
> run for as long once they install Windows. I've tested a few Linux
> environments so far myself and can't replicate what they've experience.
> In fact, Linux seems to be better than what I'm used to in its default
> form or with tlp, but I've admittedly not used it for long enough to
> produce a fair assessment.

I can only speak from my own experience. I don't like to boot into Windows
(and only do it rarely) because my computers run hotter and louder when
running Windows. And (for some reason) their is constant hard drive/SSD
activity that I don't see in Linux.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-05-31 12:51 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-30 8:10 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-29, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-29 11:31 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-29, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29 1:38 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 May 2024 20:19:56 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 May 2024 09:04:39 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 May 2024 01:55:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, because it's [WinXP] a good UI and some stuff still works..from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> what I heard.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Really?? That Fisher-Price toy-style UI was a “good UI”?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> You could switch it to look mostly like Win2000.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You’re admitting that an even older UI out of the 1990s was
>>>>>>>>>> nicer-looking than XP?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2000's UI was a bit enhanced over 9x, actually ...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Really?? Now you’re resorting to comparing it with even older, DOS-based
>>>>>>>> Windows to try to make it look good?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spoken like someone who's never used Windows 2000. That version of
>>>>>>> Windows was spectacular, so Microsoft's decision to base XP on it was a
>>>>>>> smart one. It was stable, fast and it looks better than every Windows
>>>>>>> 95-like Linux desktop environment *to this day*. You're desperately
>>>>>>> trying to bury it, but it is only because you're jealous that a bunch of
>>>>>>> "untalented" programmers managed in 1999 to do something Linux
>>>>>>> developers still can't manage to do twenty-five years later. Not one
>>>>>>> person who looks at a Linux desktop environment today is impressed by
>>>>>>> how it looks. Grab a random, non-technical person from the street and
>>>>>>> show them Linux Mint and Windows 2000 side-by-side, and I promise you
>>>>>>> they would choose to use the latter despite its obsolescence. Switch
>>>>>>> Cinnamon for GNOME and the result would be the same. Your serious
>>>>>>> delusion won't change that fact. None of these people give a flying Snit
>>>>>>> if Mint uses the same kernel as is being used on supercomputers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I used Windows 2000. It's inferior to Cinnamon, or Mate or Xfce in my
>>>>>> opinion. (Of course these desktops have the advantage of running on top of
>>>>>> Linux.) But I can't quite understand why you run down Linux UIs that look
>>>>>> like the Windows' UI — what is it about Windows 2000's UI that you think is
>>>>>> somehow unique compared to other Windows desktops?
>>>>>
>>>>> Whether D'Oliveiro wants to admit it or not, Windows 2000 and XP both
>>>>> looked like professional operating systems when they were released, and
>>>>> they had a polished look which is often sorely lacking from Linux
>>>>> desktop environments.
>>>>
>>>> You keep saying this, but what is the supposed "significant difference"
>>>> between XP, Windows 2000, Windows 7, Windows 10 or 11 compared to Cinnamon,
>>>> Xfce (the way LM sets it up) or Mate? Personally I like Cinnamon (or Mate or
>>>> Xfce) more than its Windows counterparts, but I'm curious as to what you're
>>>> seeing that I don't see.
>>>
>>> Pure aesthetics, the point D'Oilveiro was pointing at. He was trying in
>>> vain to insult Windows by poking at how it looked (through XP) and then
>>> continued mocking Windows 2000. Meanwhile, both operating systems from
>>> the turn of the century still look better than the typical Linux
>>> desktop. I'm only talking about the looks.
>>
>> I don't agree. I prefer Cinnamon's look over Windows. Not that it's that
>> huge of a deal to me.
>>
>>>>> Aside from Ubuntu which always manages to make
>>>>> GNOME look great, the desktop environment of choice in most
>>>>> distributions always has elements which simply don't look right. It's
>>>>> still a fantastic environment which allows you to do every job you can
>>>>> think of and more very effectively, but there is no reason to criticize
>>>>> the way that any version of Windows has looked when the current crop of
>>>>> Linux desktop environments don't look better at all.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not a fan of Ubuntu, originally because of Unity and then the Gnome 3
>>>> desktop — now I'm also not crazy about its use of Snaps. I'm also not a fan
>>>> of moving my furniture around, just so my house "looks different." If you
>>>> like Gnome 3, that's great. (I do have Ubuntu installed on a computer and I
>>>> can get around on it, but I don't really like it. Choice is good.)
>>>
>>> I'm not necessarily a fan of GNOME 3, but I became one because of how
>>> much hate it used to get at the beginning for trying to change the way
>>> people use their computers. People resistant change and GNOME, so I went
>>> out of my way to use it and figure out how it worked when it was
>>> released. I think that many of its ideas are smart ones.
>>
>> That's what turned me completely off on Gnome 3. Basically their mindset was
>> "We've decided that you SHOULD do it our way — even if you don't want to."
>> In Windows you would have had to take or leave it (see Windows 8). In Linux
>> I just moved to Linux Mint. Problem solved.
>>
>> As for changing for the sake of changing, that never was "my thing."
>>
>> One of the really big problems for Gnome 3 (at the beginning) was that there
>> was no easy customization. Customization tweaks would be created and then
>> abandoned when a newer versions of Gnome 3 came out. You really would have
>> to go to terminal and tweak configuration files a lot if you wanted to make
>> changes in you desktop. So Linux Mint developed Cinnamon. Gnome 3 in the
>> background, with an easily customized desktop in the foreground. We could
>> have it "our way" instead of being forced into learning the "new way" Gnome
>> developers decided we HAD to adopt to. To me it was developer hubris. I
>> don't like being pushed into something I don't want to do. I find an
>> alternative instead. (I think it's the Irish in me.)
>
> GNOME 3 was a response to a problem nobody had. Cinnamon was the
> solution to the problem caused by GNOME responding to those imaginary
> original complaints. I don't find it particularly pretty, but I have to
> admit that Cinnamon does everything it needs to do right.

I wanted to stay with Gnome 2, so originally I went to Mate. And, at the
beginning of Linux Mint, Mate was actually more "mature" then Cinnamon
(customization was easier) But I tried Cinnamon and it won me over a couple
(maybe four or so?) years ago. But I still have Mate installed so I can
support my father and I've installed Xfce on the Wyse thin clients because
it's a bit lighter on resources. Linux Mint does a good job making all three
of their desktops similar in visual design. So it's pretty easy to move from
one to the other.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-05-31 1:04 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-30 9:32 a.m., DFS wrote:
>>>> On 5/30/2024 6:46 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-30 2:27 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 29 May 2024 08:02:14 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Spoken like someone who's never used Windows 2000. That version of
>>>>>>> Windows was spectacular ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The best looking, and functioning, GUIs of the 1990s were the Unix
>>>>>> workstations. That is the heritage that Linux comes from. Windows was a
>>>>>> toy by comparison.
>>>>>
>>>>> A ridiculous lie.
>>>>>
>>>>>> For example, SGI were the pioneers of real-time 3D interfaces, back when
>>>>>> it took fiendishly expensive hardware to do such things. Again, today’s
>>>>>> real-time effects on *nix build on that heritage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I already mentioned multiple desktops from the OSF crowd. Sun did
>>>>>> tear-off
>>>>>> menus. Note also other innovations like focus-follows-mouse, taskbarless
>>>>>> desktops, cut/copy/paste in terminal windows, and the Compose key as
>>>>>> a far
>>>>>> more mnemonic way of typing non-ASCII characters than the clumsy Windows
>>>>>> alt-character-code rigmarole.
>>>>>
>>>>> All features no one other than neck-bearded fat asses who sit at their
>>>>> computer at stare at a top instance would care about.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> LOL!
>>>>
>>>> and User-Agent: Betterbird (Windows)
>>>>
>>>> You're back!
>>>
>>> I'm not "back," I'm in Windows mostly because of the media I've
>>> purchased through the Windows store. As for Betterbird, everything else
>>> just sucks as a newsreader, and I'm not willing to sacrifice
>>> functionality because the news servers I use can't get their act
>>> together to produce a working server.
>>
>> How is usenet-news working out for you?
>
> As long as you don't mind your connection to the server being insecure,
> it works great. Blocknews, for its part, is a disaster whether you're
> using SSL or not.

I'm pretty sure my eternal-september connection is not SSL secure either.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> RonB wrote:
>
>>>> Like Metro I think most of its ideas are aimed toward people more
>>>> acclimated to tablets and smartphones.
>>>
>>> They were, but many of the ideas translate to the desktop as well.
>>
>>Not so much, in my opinion. To me a computer relies on a keyboard, a
>>smartphone doesn't.
>
> They are completely different tools. Only a fool could have thought
> that people would embrace touch screens on desktop computers.

Absolutely. When Microsoft was pushing their original Surface tablets (the
ones built on Windows RT) they showed them hooked up to optional keyboards.
Then they showed people reaching across their desk (over their keyboards)
and hitting their touchscreens on their desktop computers. I thought it was
ridiculous.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

RonB wrote:
> On 2024-05-31, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> RonB wrote:
>>
>>>>> Like Metro I think most of its ideas are aimed toward people more
>>>>> acclimated to tablets and smartphones.
>>>>
>>>> They were, but many of the ideas translate to the desktop as well.
>>>
>>> Not so much, in my opinion. To me a computer relies on a keyboard, a
>>> smartphone doesn't.
>>
>> They are completely different tools. Only a fool could have thought
>> that people would embrace touch screens on desktop computers.
>
> Absolutely. When Microsoft was pushing their original Surface tablets (the
> ones built on Windows RT) they showed them hooked up to optional keyboards.
> Then they showed people reaching across their desk (over their keyboards)
> and hitting their touchscreens on their desktop computers. I thought it was
> ridiculous.
>
i guess that's why they changed it , because you didn't like it

On 2024-05-31 8:13 a.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 2024-05-30 4:29 p.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-05-30 10:51 a.m., Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>>> Andrzej Matuch wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-05-30 7:47 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29 11:23 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-05-29 1:42 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 28 May 2024 08:10:01 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Funny enough, the guy I worked with who was a Linux die-hard also used
>>>>>>>>>>>> the rotating cube to "convince" me that Linux was better. My only
>>>>>>>>>>>> response to him was "that's pretty, how is this better than pressing
>>>>>>>>>>>> alt-tab?"
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Alt-tab is just for switching windows within a desktop.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On KDE, I also have keyboard shortcuts for switching desktops.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> (You know about multiple desktops? A feature which the *nix world has had
>>>>>>>>>>> since the days of OSF Motif/CDE, which Microsoft is now trying to emulate
>>>>>>>>>>> but still can’t get right?)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The desktop cube, wobbly windows, disintegrating windows ... that’s all
>>>>>>>>>>> just bling for inducing Linux-envy among Windows sufferers.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The point here is that switching desktops is a useless feature for most
>>>>>>>>>> users. Zealots like you swear by them, but most people see nothing wrong
>>>>>>>>>> with just minimizing a window and switching from one application to
>>>>>>>>>> another by using alt-tab. Once again, you completely miss the point
>>>>>>>>>> because of your zealotry.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm guessing that most people who don't use multiple desktops are ignorant
>>>>>>>>> about how useful this feature is. This was one of the first things that
>>>>>>>>> attracted me to Linux when moving over from Windows. Separate desktops for
>>>>>>>>> separate jobs. I use this feature constantly.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It might be useful for some, but most people won't see a point to them.
>>>>>>>> If you want one desktop for media consumption, one for gaming and one
>>>>>>>> for word processing, knock yourself out. Most people will just put the
>>>>>>>> applications for all three categories in the same desktop and minimize
>>>>>>>> whatever they're not using.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Less efficient, in my opinion.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tell yourself that a lot of people see minimizing an application to be
>>>>>> more efficient because it ends up consuming less power, CPU and RAM than
>>>>>> one that's constantly open in a virtual desktop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Minimizing a window generally doesn't cause the application to use less CPU or
>>>>> memory. Same with an application not visible because it's in another virtual
>>>>> desktop. Also depends what the application does in the background vs
>>>>> updating an open window.
>>>>>
>>>>> Besides, I think Ron means it's more efficient for his workflow.
>>>>
>>>> No, I am right. <https://shorturl.at/iByNk>
>>>
>>> That's for Windows.
>>
>> And I was referring to Windows.
>>
>>>> It might be different in Linux, but that would only explain why battery
>>>> life is so poor on a Linux machine as compared to Windows on the same
>>>> hardware.
>>>
>>> You are resurfacing news from years ago.
>>>
>>> As I noted, my Lenovo Flex running Linux can last 13 hours or so (if I just let
>>> it sit there doing nothing).
>>>
>>> Some more anecdotal information:
>>>
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/linuxmasterrace/comments/10kenc2/i_searched_the_internet_about_battery_life_on/
>>>
>>> You seem to be sour about some things.
>>
>> With tlp, you can get some decent additional battery life in Linux, but
>> you're still looking at less than Windows. Anyone who's claimed that
>> they get more in Linux has so far been unwilling to show any kind of proof.
>
> There are way too many uses cases, even in Windows, to "prove" that one is more
> power-efficient than the other. Differences in hardware drivers, power
> supplies, desktop paradigms, power tuning, the amount of network traffic. The
> best one could do is provide a probability distribution for each OS, and see
> which one has the higher mean value. That's a lot of data-taking. And there
> will be considerable overlap in the probability distributions.
>
> In my case, it's a non-issue. One one laptop, the battery is crapped out, so it
> is plugged in all the time. On the other laptop, it lasts a long time unless I
> am compiling code over and over; it is quite satisfactory.
>
> Finally, it is a non-issue for me because I have no intention of running
> Windows except in a VM. (That might change later if I go to a dual boot on my
> next laptop purchase so that I can test my cross-platform C/C++ code on
> a real Windows.)

I haven't tried it yet, but it appears that installing Windows 11 in a
VM is annoying because of that TPM requirement. Meanwhile, it looks like
it will be the only way for me to access the movies I purchased other
than on the Xbox Series S.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On 2024-05-31 8:16 a.m., chrisv wrote:
> RonB wrote:
>
>>>> Like Metro I think most of its ideas are aimed toward people more
>>>> acclimated to tablets and smartphones.
>>>
>>> They were, but many of the ideas translate to the desktop as well.
>>
>> Not so much, in my opinion. To me a computer relies on a keyboard, a
>> smartphone doesn't.
>
> They are completely different tools. Only a fool could have thought
> that people would embrace touch screens on desktop computers.

The sad part is that our school library has some old piece of shit Dells
in it which all have a touchscreen. Even though they're sitting at a
desk and holding a mouse, a good chunk of the kids touch the screen to
click items or scroll down on a page.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On 2024-05-31 10:08 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-31 12:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-30 4:07 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 08:55:21 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Generally, I wouldn't be worried that drivers for the hardware used on
>>>>>> Linux-minded laptops would be available. However, I wouldn't be
>>>>>> surprised if I faced the same kind of issues using Windows on a Linux
>>>>>> machine that I had using Linux on a Windows machine. Problems waking
>>>>>> from sleep, graphical errors and things of the sort are very likely to
>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>
>>>>> The oddity I see with my Acer laptop with an open WSL session is Hyper-V
>>>>> crashes if it sleeps. It will hibernate with no problem and the couple of
>>>>> seconds difference in startup isn't a problem.
>>>>
>>>> I think that there are a number of issues with the way Windows 11
>>>> sleeps. I'm not sure what they changed from 10, especially since they
>>>> both use Modern Standby by default, but it seems to be fairly chaotic
>>>> for hardware.
>>>
>>> I think Microsoft has lost interest in trouble shooting hardware drivers. I
>>> think their money (and time) is being spent on developing AI crap. It
>>> definitely seems to be their priority.
>>>
>>> Even SoftMaker is touting AI for their newest office suite. They advertise
>>> it as a "feature," to me it simply means I'll never upgrade to a newer
>>> version.
>>
>> Funny that you should mention office suites. I was curious about what
>> Catholicism believes about current technology and how it views
>> proprietary and open-source software. Officially, the stance is that
>> Catholicism has no issue with proprietary software but that it must
>> resist closed formats entirely since these would be at odds with
>> allowing people to freely obtain knowledge in whatever form. As such,
>> only LibreOffice, or an office suite using OpenDocument by default,
>> respects the faith. Perhaps you would want to take this into
>> consideration if, like me, your faith is becoming increasingly important.
>
> SoftMaker is proprietary software, but it supports open documents (in
> addition to their own format and M$'s format), so I don't see where there is
> an issue with using it.

Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
resist using non-free formats in general.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On 2024-05-31 10:25 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-31 1:04 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-30 9:32 a.m., DFS wrote:
>>>>> On 5/30/2024 6:46 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-30 2:27 a.m., Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 29 May 2024 08:02:14 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Spoken like someone who's never used Windows 2000. That version of
>>>>>>>> Windows was spectacular ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The best looking, and functioning, GUIs of the 1990s were the Unix
>>>>>>> workstations. That is the heritage that Linux comes from. Windows was a
>>>>>>> toy by comparison.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A ridiculous lie.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> For example, SGI were the pioneers of real-time 3D interfaces, back when
>>>>>>> it took fiendishly expensive hardware to do such things. Again, today’s
>>>>>>> real-time effects on *nix build on that heritage.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I already mentioned multiple desktops from the OSF crowd. Sun did
>>>>>>> tear-off
>>>>>>> menus. Note also other innovations like focus-follows-mouse, taskbarless
>>>>>>> desktops, cut/copy/paste in terminal windows, and the Compose key as
>>>>>>> a far
>>>>>>> more mnemonic way of typing non-ASCII characters than the clumsy Windows
>>>>>>> alt-character-code rigmarole.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> All features no one other than neck-bearded fat asses who sit at their
>>>>>> computer at stare at a top instance would care about.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> LOL!
>>>>>
>>>>> and User-Agent: Betterbird (Windows)
>>>>>
>>>>> You're back!
>>>>
>>>> I'm not "back," I'm in Windows mostly because of the media I've
>>>> purchased through the Windows store. As for Betterbird, everything else
>>>> just sucks as a newsreader, and I'm not willing to sacrifice
>>>> functionality because the news servers I use can't get their act
>>>> together to produce a working server.
>>>
>>> How is usenet-news working out for you?
>>
>> As long as you don't mind your connection to the server being insecure,
>> it works great. Blocknews, for its part, is a disaster whether you're
>> using SSL or not.
>
> I'm pretty sure my eternal-september connection is not SSL secure either.

It might not be, but Eternal September's SSL certificate and connection
actually work. In Usenet-News.net's case, Betterbird outright can't find
or rejects whatever certificate they offer. Blocknews has a valid
certificate, but the SSL connection doesn't work right.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On 2024-05-31 10:41 a.m., % wrote:
> RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-05-31, chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> RonB wrote:
>>>
>>>>>> Like Metro I think most of its ideas are aimed toward people more
>>>>>> acclimated to tablets and smartphones.
>>>>>
>>>>> They were, but many of the ideas translate to the desktop as well.
>>>>
>>>> Not so much, in my opinion. To me a computer relies on a keyboard, a
>>>> smartphone doesn't.
>>>
>>> They are completely different tools.  Only a fool could have thought
>>> that people would embrace touch screens on desktop computers.
>>
>> Absolutely. When Microsoft was pushing their original Surface tablets
>> (the
>> ones built on Windows RT) they showed them hooked up to optional
>> keyboards.
>> Then they showed people reaching across their desk (over their keyboards)
>> and hitting their touchscreens on their desktop computers. I thought
>> it was
>> ridiculous.
>>
> i guess that's why they changed it , because you didn't like it

ROFL! Great line.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On Fri, 31 May 2024 14:03:18 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> On 2024-05-31, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 May 2024 04:36:59 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:
>>
>>> Yep. I've always been more substance over surface. But, as you say,
>>> "surface" sells. (Just not to me.)
>>
>> Speaking of which, I'm getting daily spam from M$ trying to sell me the
>> new Surface.
>
> Is this one of the CoPilot Plus laptops?

Probably. I'll have to read the next one. I'd do better in video games if
I could hit the buttons as fast as I hit Delete when going through my
inbox.

At least the wave of utterly suspicious emails with a
'Terms_of_service.pdf' attachment have stopped. While I understand the
reasoning behind a scheme with 0 marginal costs that might have a 1 in a
million yield I gotta wonder.

On Fri, 31 May 2024 11:35:16 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
> resist using non-free formats in general.

I can't find that in my copy of the CoCC.

Le 27-05-2024, Tyrone <none@none.none> a écrit :
> On May 25, 2024 at 4:27:10 PM EDT, "Stéphane CARPENTIER" <sc@fiat-linux.fr>
> wrote:
>
>> Le 23-05-2024, Tyrone <none@none.none> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Microsoft has no monopoly. On anything. It is to their benefit to retire
>>> Windows. Windows usage is shrinking, and has been for the last 14 years.
>>
>> The benefit of Microsoft is not to retire Windows, it's to reduce its
>> costs. It's not the same.
>
> They have already done that. Windows 10 was a free upgrade to individual
> users. Windows 11 is also a free upgrade. But since I wanted to install 11 Pro
> Arm in a VM on this Mac, I paid $30 for a license from Bleeping Computer and
> downloaded the ISO from MS.
>
> Windows no longer costs $200. Coincidentally, no one gets in line to buy the
> new version like they did 20 years ago. As always, when demand goes down the
> price goes down.

I'm not speaking of the price for the end user, but of the cost for
Microsoft. As long as its cost nothing, they can keep it at will.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 30-05-2024, vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> a écrit :
> On Wed, 29 May 2024 18:49:40 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
><6657b101$0$1245638$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>:
>
>> Use WSL if you have a
>> compulsion for a bash shell.
>
> I would use Cygwin, if I wanted to downgrade.

I discovered something like a year ago, that for Windows git comes with
a pretty good shell.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 28-05-2024, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> a écrit :
> On Mon, 27 May 2024 23:10:05 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> I thought some people still use XP..
>
> But for what? Would you entrust mission-critical business operations to
> obsolete, unsupported software?

If it's not broken don't fix it. That's the way. You start with
something pretty much up to date, and it becomes a little bit obsolete
day by day. And one day it's very obsolete and very expensive to change.

<https://www.tomshardware.com/software/windows/ms-dos-and-windows-311-still-run-train-dashboards-at-german-railway-company-listed-admin-job-for-30-year-old-operating-system>

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

On 2024-05-31 1:45 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 31 May 2024 11:35:16 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>
>> Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
>> resist using non-free formats in general.
>
> I can't find that in my copy of the CoCC.

You can get the answer from doing a little bit of research or simply
using one of the many AI services to have them do the research for you.
The position is that open-source's openness favours collaboration and
the pursuit of knowledge and should therefore be pursued.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
TG: @AndrzejMatuch
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king.

On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-05-31 10:08 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-31 12:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-30 4:07 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 08:55:21 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Generally, I wouldn't be worried that drivers for the hardware used on
>>>>>>> Linux-minded laptops would be available. However, I wouldn't be
>>>>>>> surprised if I faced the same kind of issues using Windows on a Linux
>>>>>>> machine that I had using Linux on a Windows machine. Problems waking
>>>>>>> from sleep, graphical errors and things of the sort are very likely to
>>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The oddity I see with my Acer laptop with an open WSL session is Hyper-V
>>>>>> crashes if it sleeps. It will hibernate with no problem and the couple of
>>>>>> seconds difference in startup isn't a problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that there are a number of issues with the way Windows 11
>>>>> sleeps. I'm not sure what they changed from 10, especially since they
>>>>> both use Modern Standby by default, but it seems to be fairly chaotic
>>>>> for hardware.
>>>>
>>>> I think Microsoft has lost interest in trouble shooting hardware drivers. I
>>>> think their money (and time) is being spent on developing AI crap. It
>>>> definitely seems to be their priority.
>>>>
>>>> Even SoftMaker is touting AI for their newest office suite. They advertise
>>>> it as a "feature," to me it simply means I'll never upgrade to a newer
>>>> version.
>>>
>>> Funny that you should mention office suites. I was curious about what
>>> Catholicism believes about current technology and how it views
>>> proprietary and open-source software. Officially, the stance is that
>>> Catholicism has no issue with proprietary software but that it must
>>> resist closed formats entirely since these would be at odds with
>>> allowing people to freely obtain knowledge in whatever form. As such,
>>> only LibreOffice, or an office suite using OpenDocument by default,
>>> respects the faith. Perhaps you would want to take this into
>>> consideration if, like me, your faith is becoming increasingly important.
>>
>> SoftMaker is proprietary software, but it supports open documents (in
>> addition to their own format and M$'s format), so I don't see where there is
>> an issue with using it.
>
> Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
> resist using non-free formats in general.

I'm not arguing against you, but I've never seen this in Catholic writing.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
> On 2024-05-31 1:45 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 May 2024 11:35:16 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>
>>> Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
>>> resist using non-free formats in general.
>>
>> I can't find that in my copy of the CoCC.
>
> You can get the answer from doing a little bit of research or simply
> using one of the many AI services to have them do the research for you.
> The position is that open-source's openness favours collaboration and
> the pursuit of knowledge and should therefore be pursued.

I kind of wish the modern Catholic Church would worry more about saving
people's souls and less about their version of social justice.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

RonB wrote:
> On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-31 10:08 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-05-31 12:35 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>>>> On 2024-05-30, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>>>>>> On 2024-05-30 4:07 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, 30 May 2024 08:55:21 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Generally, I wouldn't be worried that drivers for the hardware used on
>>>>>>>> Linux-minded laptops would be available. However, I wouldn't be
>>>>>>>> surprised if I faced the same kind of issues using Windows on a Linux
>>>>>>>> machine that I had using Linux on a Windows machine. Problems waking
>>>>>>>> from sleep, graphical errors and things of the sort are very likely to
>>>>>>>> happen.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The oddity I see with my Acer laptop with an open WSL session is Hyper-V
>>>>>>> crashes if it sleeps. It will hibernate with no problem and the couple of
>>>>>>> seconds difference in startup isn't a problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that there are a number of issues with the way Windows 11
>>>>>> sleeps. I'm not sure what they changed from 10, especially since they
>>>>>> both use Modern Standby by default, but it seems to be fairly chaotic
>>>>>> for hardware.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think Microsoft has lost interest in trouble shooting hardware drivers. I
>>>>> think their money (and time) is being spent on developing AI crap. It
>>>>> definitely seems to be their priority.
>>>>>
>>>>> Even SoftMaker is touting AI for their newest office suite. They advertise
>>>>> it as a "feature," to me it simply means I'll never upgrade to a newer
>>>>> version.
>>>>
>>>> Funny that you should mention office suites. I was curious about what
>>>> Catholicism believes about current technology and how it views
>>>> proprietary and open-source software. Officially, the stance is that
>>>> Catholicism has no issue with proprietary software but that it must
>>>> resist closed formats entirely since these would be at odds with
>>>> allowing people to freely obtain knowledge in whatever form. As such,
>>>> only LibreOffice, or an office suite using OpenDocument by default,
>>>> respects the faith. Perhaps you would want to take this into
>>>> consideration if, like me, your faith is becoming increasingly important.
>>>
>>> SoftMaker is proprietary software, but it supports open documents (in
>>> addition to their own format and M$'s format), so I don't see where there is
>>> an issue with using it.
>>
>> Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
>> resist using non-free formats in general.
>
> I'm not arguing against you, but I've never seen this in Catholic writing.
>

Joel Crump wrote:

> Typical chrisv reply, (snipped, unread)

RonB wrote:
> On 2024-05-31, Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:
>> On 2024-05-31 1:45 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>> On Fri, 31 May 2024 11:35:16 -0400, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
>>>
>>>> Supports is open thing, Catholicism's view is apparently that you must
>>>> resist using non-free formats in general.
>>>
>>> I can't find that in my copy of the CoCC.
>>
>> You can get the answer from doing a little bit of research or simply
>> using one of the many AI services to have them do the research for you.
>> The position is that open-source's openness favours collaboration and
>> the pursuit of knowledge and should therefore be pursued.
>
> I kind of wish the modern Catholic Church would worry more about saving
> people's souls and less about their version of social justice.
>
Joel Crump wrote:

> Typical chrisv reply, (snipped, unread)