On 24 Oct 2024 17:02:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> RS6000 is big endian and the ONC-RPC XDR encoding is big endian across
> the network. The Linux boxes would swap the order when decoding the XDR.

Linux runs on hardware of both kinds of endianness. This is why you have
functions like htons/htonl etc
<https://manpages.debian.org/3/htons.3.en.html>.

In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Forth love if honk then
>>
>> PostScript love {honk} if
>
> HP-16C
>
> CAFE BABE +

Unfortunately coffee was not available in those days.

--
M.O.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 21:46:56 -0000 (UTC), Marc Olschok wrote:

> Unfortunately coffee was not available in those days.

Pre-16th-century, was it?

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>On 24 Oct 2024 17:02:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> RS6000 is big endian and the ONC-RPC XDR encoding is big endian across
>> the network. The Linux boxes would swap the order when decoding the XDR.
>
>Linux runs on hardware of both kinds of endianness. This is why you have
>functions like htons/htonl etc

Those functions predate linux.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 21:46:56 -0000 (UTC), Marc Olschok wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> Forth love if honk then
>>>
>>> PostScript love {honk} if
>>
>> HP-16C
>>
>> CAFE BABE +
>
> Unfortunately coffee was not available in those days.

DEAD BEEF?

magardner2010 <magardner2010@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23/10/2024 01:36, John Ames wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 22:23:31 -0000 (UTC)
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> And you really expect the young kids today to spend the extra effort
>>> learning something like Forth?
>>
>> I don't expect anyone to do anything! They're free to use whatever fits
>> their workflow and personal tastes best!
>>
>> It's just funny to watch you be so dedicated to dismissing out-of-hand
>> a thing that nobody was even pressuring you to use, is all.
>>
> And if I might interject, I am a 24-year old who has not that long ago
> started learning the UXN (https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html) system.
> While it isn't a bare-metal FORTH, targetting a virtual machine, in
> terms of learning about FORTHs, I think it qualifies.
>
> And if I don't qualify as a "young kid", well, I have a 13-year-old
> brother, who has also started learning the language.
>

In this group you could be twice your age and still be considered a
youngster!

--
Pete

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:04:37 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>
>> ... but the one has 512 KB Flash/144 KB RAM, and the other
>> only 32 KB/16 KB.
>
> 512kiB seems to be the recommendation for MicroPython. For the 32kiB one,
> I would want to use a cross-compiler for some more resource-efficient
> language, like C.
>

Ridiculous! 32K should be more than enough to run a decent compiler
natively.

--
Pete

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 22:30:47 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>On 24 Oct 2024 17:02:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> RS6000 is big endian and the ONC-RPC XDR encoding is big endian across
>>> the network. The Linux boxes would swap the order when decoding the
>>> XDR.
>>
>>Linux runs on hardware of both kinds of endianness. This is why you have
>>functions like htons/htonl etc
>
> Those functions predate linux.

Yes, and they wouldn't be too helpful when dealing with XDR. That comes
with its own set of data types and functions.

https://fiona.dmcs.pl/rso/du/onc-rpc5.html

It's old and clunky but having worked with both I don't know if it's any
worse than Google's protobuf invention,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_Buffers

On 10/24/24 7:27 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 24/10/2024 07:38, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> On 10/23/24 9:13 PM, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>> On 10/23/24 5:23 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 07:43:46 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> diced and julienned plagiarism ...
>>>>
>>>> You say “plagiarism”, I say “code reuse”. Something which is explicitly
>>>> allowed by Free Software licences.
>>>
>>>
>>>    Hey, don't we owe huge royalties to the Sumerians
>>>    who invented the brick ?  :-)
>>
>>
>>    Oh ... how many thousand years did the 'product concept'
>>    group work on the brick ? How big, what shape exactly,
>>    what color selections ... ?  :-)

> rounded corners.,..

The committee better create a consumer-survey group and
see how that option flies :-)

On 10/24/24 4:50 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 03:11:58 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 10/24/24 2:36 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 02:03:13 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> [Ada] is the very def of "fascist". It'd be cruel and unusual
>>>> punishment to be expected to program a project using it.
>>>
>>> If human lives are at stake, the bondage-and-discipline approach works
>>> wonders. Keeps you on your toes.
>>
>> Or MAYBE just hire some good, wise, 'C' programmers ...
>
> The good, wise ones would not eschew Ada.

Being forced to be an Ada programmer - it'd be like one
of those legendary Greek tortures of hell ...

I'll stick to 'C', Pascal and Python from now on.

Or, hey ... to confuse The Enemy there's always
the BrainFuck language :-)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainfuck

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:13:05 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:04:37 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>>
>>> ... but the one has 512 KB Flash/144 KB RAM, and the other only 32
>>> KB/16 KB.
>>
>> 512kiB seems to be the recommendation for MicroPython. For the 32kiB
>> one, I would want to use a cross-compiler for some more
>> resource-efficient language, like C.
>>
> Ridiculous! 32K should be more than enough to run a decent compiler
> natively.

It never was. Even back in Apple II days, Apple didn’t recommend using
something like a Pascal compiler on their 6502-based platform.

On 25 Oct 2024 00:30:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>>On 24 Oct 2024 17:02:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> RS6000 is big endian and the ONC-RPC XDR encoding is big endian
>>> across the network. The Linux boxes would swap the order when
>>> decoding the XDR.
>>
>>Linux runs on hardware of both kinds of endianness. This is why you
>>have functions like htons/htonl etc
>
> Yes, and they wouldn't be too helpful when dealing with XDR. That comes
> with its own set of data types and functions.

This is the same XDR that was created by Sun, back in the day? They knew
their networking stuff. They were not stupid; they would have taken
endianness into account in their support functions; if you’re having
trouble with this, then I suspect you’re doing it wrong.

On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 01:32:51 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:13:05 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:04:37 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... but the one has 512 KB Flash/144 KB RAM, and the other only 32
>>>> KB/16 KB.
>>>
>>> 512kiB seems to be the recommendation for MicroPython. For the 32kiB
>>> one, I would want to use a cross-compiler for some more
>>> resource-efficient language, like C.
>>>
>> Ridiculous! 32K should be more than enough to run a decent compiler
>> natively.
>
> It never was. Even back in Apple II days, Apple didn’t recommend using
> something like a Pascal compiler on their 6502-based platform.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C

My CP/M boxes had 64k but that clains BDS would run in 30k. TurboPascal
was lightning fast comparatively and ran in 64k.

On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 01:36:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 25 Oct 2024 00:30:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>On 24 Oct 2024 17:02:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> RS6000 is big endian and the ONC-RPC XDR encoding is big endian
>>>> across the network. The Linux boxes would swap the order when
>>>> decoding the XDR.
>>>
>>>Linux runs on hardware of both kinds of endianness. This is why you
>>>have functions like htons/htonl etc
>>
>> Yes, and they wouldn't be too helpful when dealing with XDR. That comes
>> with its own set of data types and functions.
>
> This is the same XDR that was created by Sun, back in the day? They knew
> their networking stuff. They were not stupid; they would have taken
> endianness into account in their support functions; if you’re having
> trouble with this, then I suspect you’re doing it wrong.

At what point did I indicate I was having trouble with it?

On 10/24/24 8:13 PM, Peter Flass wrote:
> magardner2010 <magardner2010@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 23/10/2024 01:36, John Ames wrote:
>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 22:23:31 -0000 (UTC)
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> And you really expect the young kids today to spend the extra effort
>>>> learning something like Forth?
>>>
>>> I don't expect anyone to do anything! They're free to use whatever fits
>>> their workflow and personal tastes best!
>>>
>>> It's just funny to watch you be so dedicated to dismissing out-of-hand
>>> a thing that nobody was even pressuring you to use, is all.
>>>
>> And if I might interject, I am a 24-year old who has not that long ago
>> started learning the UXN (https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/uxn.html) system.
>> While it isn't a bare-metal FORTH, targetting a virtual machine, in
>> terms of learning about FORTHs, I think it qualifies.
>>
>> And if I don't qualify as a "young kid", well, I have a 13-year-old
>> brother, who has also started learning the language.
>>
>
> In this group you could be twice your age and still be considered a
> youngste

Heh, heh ... probably true :-)

A lot of us got our start BEFORE the IBM-PC, before
'PC's at all. My first "PC" was a PDP-11 with a card
reader and you had to stand in line holding a pile
of the cards.

DON'T DROP 'EM !!!

But at least some of the 'kids' are super smart, and
more attuned to how it's done NOW/TOMORROW ... so I'll
pay attention.

(uxn is an almost FORTH-like hyper-simple lang with
a very tiny 'compiler' - though I suppose you COULD
do some real stuff with it)

https://wiki.xxiivv.com/etc/uxnmin.c.txt

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-23, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-10-23, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-10-22, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> In that sense the companies themselves have gone 'socialist' in that, like
>>>>>>> Marx, they regard economics as a zero sum game.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Incorrect. By design they do what they do, and whether the economy is
>>>>>> zero sum (it is not) or not, does not really apply. That is why todays
>>>>>> crypto-socialist government is so extremely dangerous. It subverts and
>>>>>> distorts the markets, just by existing.
>>>>>
>>>>> As opposed to large corporations subverting and distorting the markets,
>>>>> as God intended.
>>>>
>>>> They do it with the help of the governments. By themselves, per
>>>> definition, they are not able to over time.
>>>>
>>>>>>> That is, it isn't about creating more wealth, it's about who gets to own
>>>>>>> what there is left.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> True.
>>>>>
>>>>> I.e., a zero-sum game.
>>>>
>>>> No, it is not, and that is proven by economics. The proof is that we are
>>>> 8.2 billion people on the planet and we've never had it better.
>
> FSVO "we".
>
>>>> If economy was zero sum, we'd be dead by now.
>>>
>>> Give it time...
>>
>> Exactly. No proof, so far.
>
> "So far, so good," the man falling past the 5th floor of the
> Empire State building was heard to say.

That's nonsense and you know it.

On 25/10/2024 09:59, D wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-23, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-10-23, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-10-22, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <snip>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In that sense the companies themselves have gone 'socialist' in
>>>>>>>> that, like
>>>>>>>> Marx, they regard economics as a zero sum game.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Incorrect. By design they do what they do, and whether the
>>>>>>> economy is
>>>>>>> zero sum (it is not) or not, does not really apply. That is why
>>>>>>> todays
>>>>>>> crypto-socialist government is so extremely dangerous. It
>>>>>>> subverts and
>>>>>>> distorts the markets, just by existing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As opposed to large corporations subverting and distorting the
>>>>>> markets,
>>>>>> as God intended.
>>>>>
>>>>> They do it with the help of the governments. By themselves, per
>>>>> definition, they are not able to over time.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That is, it isn't about creating more wealth, it's about who
>>>>>>>> gets to own
>>>>>>>> what there is left.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> True.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I.e., a zero-sum game.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, it is not, and that is proven by economics. The proof is that
>>>>> we are
>>>>> 8.2 billion people on the planet and we've never had it better.
>>
>> FSVO "we".
>>
>>>>> If economy was zero sum, we'd be dead by now.
>>>>
>>>> Give it time...
>>>
>>> Exactly. No proof, so far.
>>
>> "So far, so good," the man falling past the 5th floor of the
>> Empire State building was heard to say.
>
> That's nonsense and you know it.

Well no, it isn't.
Civilisations have fallen through no apparent fault of their own.

Egypt's soldiered on nearly 3000 years before vanishing under Rome and
then falling victim to Islam.

But I reiterate, of course no economy is actually a zero sum game nor
has been since we invented agriculture.

It is just that Marxism is steeped in the ethics of the hunter-gatherer
political structure (no one owns anything: All property is common) and
economics, and that *is* a zero sum game. If you kill the game and pick
the fruit, the next door tribe can't.

The fact that the conditions where all this worked ceased to exist 5000
years ago doesn't deter the nostalgia of the True Marxist from trying to
turn the clock of civilisation back that far.

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

In alt.folklore.computers Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:04:37 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>>
>>> ... but the one has 512 KB Flash/144 KB RAM, and the other
>>> only 32 KB/16 KB.
>>
>> 512kiB seems to be the recommendation for MicroPython. For the 32kiB one,
>> I would want to use a cross-compiler for some more resource-efficient
>> language, like C.
>>
>
> Ridiculous! 32K should be more than enough to run a decent compiler
> natively.

Hisoft Pascal for ZX Spectrum had about 25 kB of code. ARM code
tends to be more compact than Z80 code so something of similar
complexity should fit. However this was really Pascal subset
and compiler generated code was not very good. There is also
question of RAM use, with 16kB of RAM there should be enough
space, but MCU-s with 32 kB flash may have only 2KB RAM which
is quite thight for a compiler. Note that with normal compiled
languages you need space for source code and compiler symbol
table. And space for object code (object code may go to flash,
but compiler must leave enough free flash for this). It is
preferable to have incremental compiler. But then symbol
table must be part of running program. In effect you end up
with something that on the surface may be quite different
but internally is like Forth compiler. Also, besides compiler
you need a some support library. Forth was organised in
a way that compiler/interpreter routines simultanously served
as a library for the user.

In a different spirit, modern MCU-s contain inside a lot of
devices. If you want nice symbolic constants helping with
use of devices you need extra space (kilobytes or tens of
kilobytes for all devices). And one wants library of
routines handling devices. So really a lot of things
competing for use of those 32 kB of flash.

--
Waldek Hebisch

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 01:36:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 25 Oct 2024 00:30:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>>On 24 Oct 2024 17:02:02 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> RS6000 is big endian and the ONC-RPC XDR encoding is big endian
>>>>> across the network. The Linux boxes would swap the order when
>>>>> decoding the XDR.
>>>>
>>>>Linux runs on hardware of both kinds of endianness. This is why you
>>>>have functions like htons/htonl etc
>>>
>>> Yes, and they wouldn't be too helpful when dealing with XDR. That comes
>>> with its own set of data types and functions.
>>
>> This is the same XDR that was created by Sun, back in the day? They knew
>> their networking stuff. They were not stupid; they would have taken
>> endianness into account in their support functions; if you’re having
>> trouble with this, then I suspect you’re doing it wrong.
>
>
>At what point did I indicate I was having trouble with it?
>

Lawrence obviously has only read about XDR, and never tried
to actually use it directly. The API was rather extensive.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 21:46:56 -0000 (UTC)
Marc Olschok <nobody@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> > On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> >
> >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >>
> >>> Forth love if honk then
> >>
> >> PostScript love {honk} if
> >
> > HP-16C
> >
> > CAFE BABE +
>

=185BE

- doesn't look like 58008 to me.

> Unfortunately coffee was not available in those days.
>
> --
> M.O.

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 25 Oct 2024 00:00:48 GMT
rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 21:46:56 -0000 (UTC), Marc Olschok wrote:
>
> > In comp.os.linux.misc rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> >> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Forth love if honk then
> >>>
> >>> PostScript love {honk} if
> >>
> >> HP-16C
> >>
> >> CAFE BABE +
> >
> > Unfortunately coffee was not available in those days.
>
> DEAD BEEF?
FEED BEAD!

--
Bah, and indeed Humbug.

On 2024-10-25, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 01:32:51 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 24 Oct 2024 17:13:05 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 23 Oct 2024 08:04:37 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ... but the one has 512 KB Flash/144 KB RAM, and the other only 32
>>>>> KB/16 KB.
>>>>
>>>> 512kiB seems to be the recommendation for MicroPython. For the 32kiB
>>>> one, I would want to use a cross-compiler for some more
>>>> resource-efficient language, like C.
>>>>
>>> Ridiculous! 32K should be more than enough to run a decent compiler
>>> natively.

"...ought to be enough for anybody," said someone who went from
byte-pinching code hacks to one of the world's biggest pieces of bloatware.

>> It never was. Even back in Apple II days, Apple didn’t recommend using
>> something like a Pascal compiler on their 6502-based platform.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDS_C
>
> My CP/M boxes had 64k but that clains BDS would run in 30k. TurboPascal
> was lightning fast comparatively and ran in 64k.

Ah, the good old trade-off between memory size and speed...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 2024-10-25, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

> Being forced to be an Ada programmer - it'd be like one
> of those legendary Greek tortures of hell ...

Another one is being forced to maintain payroll programs forever.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

Capitalism and social democracy ... have pros & cons and can be used for
checks & balances ... example, On War
https://www.amazon.com/War-beautifully-reproduced-illustrated-introduction-ebook/dp/B00G3DFLY8/
loc394-95: As long as the Socialists only threatened capital they were
not seriously interfered with, for the Government knew quite well that
the undisputed sway of the employer was not for the ultimate good of the
State.

i.e. the government needed general population standard of living
sufficient that soldiers were willing to fight to preserve their way of
life. Capitalists tendency was to reduce worker standard of living to
the lowest possible ... below what the government needed for soldier
motivation ... and therefor needed socialists as counterbalance to the
capitalists in raising the general population standard of living. Saw
this fight out in the 30s, American Fascists opposing all of FDR's "new
deals" The Coming of American Fascism, 1920-1940
https://historynewsnetwork.org/article/172004 The truth, then, is that
Long and Coughlin, together with the influential Communist Party and
other leftist organizations, helped save the New Deal from becoming
genuinely fascist, from devolving into the dictatorial rule of big
business. The pressures towards fascism remained, as reactionary sectors
of business began to have significant victories against the Second New
Deal starting in the late 1930s. But the genuine power that organized
labor had achieved by then kept the U.S. from sliding into all-out
fascism (in the Marxist sense) in the following decades.

aka "Coming of America Fascism" shows socialists countered the "New
Deal" becoming fascist ... which had been the objective of the
capitalists ... and possibly contributed to forcing them further into
the Nazi/fascist camp. When The Bankers Plotted To Overthrow FDR
https://www.npr.org/2012/02/12/145472726/when-the-bankers-plotted-to-overthrow-fdr
The Plots Against the President: FDR, A Nation in Crisis, and the Rise
of the American Right
https://www.amazon.com/Plots-Against-President-Nation-American-ebook/dp/B07N4BLR77/

"Why Nations Fail"
https://www.amazon.com/Why-Nations-Fail-Origins-Prosperity-ebook/dp/B0058Z4NR8/
original settlement, Jamestown ... English planning on emulating the
Spanish model, enslave the local natives to support the
settlement. Unfortunately the North American natives weren't as
cooperative and the settlement nearly starved. Then started out
switching to sending over some of the other populations from the British
Isles essentially as slaves ... the English Crown charters had them as
"leet-man" ... pg27: The clauses of the Fundamental Constitutions laid
out a rigid social structure. At the bottom were the "leet-men," with
clause 23 noting, "All the children of leet-men shall be leet-men, and
so to all generations."

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Fri, 25 Oct 2024 17:32:03 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-25, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>
>> Being forced to be an Ada programmer - it'd be like one of those
>> legendary Greek tortures of hell ...
>
> Another one is being forced to maintain payroll programs forever.

My personal hell is database programming. Gods know I've done enough of it
but it always feels like shoveling shit against the tide.