On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:53:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Once the Left introduced morality into politics it left the door open
> for every kind of hatred and bigotry.

I thought it was the Right, not the Left, that wanted to turn abortion
rights from a health issue into a religious issue.

On 21 Oct 2024 19:33:03 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Add up all those milliliters and pretty soon you have another bottle of
> booze to sell.

Make them say “millilitres” first ... if they can’t, don’t sell it to
’em ...

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 11:58:12 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> In fact what is happening is a massive swing to the right in many EU
> nations.

Mainly in ones that shouldn’t really be in the EU in the first place: they
like the handouts of money from Brussels, don’t like having to abide by
pesky things like “human rights” to get them.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:00:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I would say that they are capitalist grifters using social morality to
> justify what they do.
>
> Same as the whole West.
>
> Socialism is the new opium of the people.

Wait ... socialism is actually “capitalist” now? Does that make it good or
bad?

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:53:46 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> But for an RP2040, you can already cross-compile C code from a
> Linux-based host, like a Raspberry Pi. That will give you “full
> access to the bare metal”, without the overheads of threaded code.

You certainly can, if raw performance is your only concern - but "cross-
compile on a separate machine" as a development process adds steps that
aren't necessary in an interactive, self-hosting environment, where you
can debug, tweak, and re-test right in place. That's one reason it's
been historically popular in space applications - it's slightly cost-
prohibitive to send a field-service tech out with a firmware update on
a USB drive when the trip is measured in AUs or light-years ;)

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:53:46 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> But for an RP2040, you can already cross-compile C code from a
> Linux-based host, like a Raspberry Pi. That will give you “full access
> to the bare metal”, without the overheads of threaded code.

https://hackaday.com/2017/04/19/moving-forth-with-mecrisp-stellaris-and-
embello/

Either you get it or you don't. nce you've flashed the firmware you don't
need a Linux box or a cross compiler.

"The coolest thing about using a Forth system is that very little support
software is needed at all — the Forth interpreter compiles its own code,
and you interact with it over the serial terminal. Everything happens
inside the microcontroller. "

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 19:58:53 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>
>>Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of
>>shrikflation.
>
> 750ml is fluid 25.36 ounces. 1/5 gallon is 25.60 fluid ounces.

Thanks you Captain Obvious. Now do the math. How many .24 ounces do you
have to collect before you have 750 ml? How many bottles do you think Jack
Daniels fills a day?

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 21:00:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 21 Oct 2024 19:33:03 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Add up all those milliliters and pretty soon you have another bottle of
>> booze to sell.
>
> Make them say “millilitres” first ... if they can’t, don’t sell it to
> ’em ...

Don't push it. The US may adopt more of the metric system but the fucked
up Frechified spelling ain't gonna happen.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:16:52 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> ... "cross-compile on a separate machine" as a development process adds
> steps that aren't necessary in an interactive, self-hosting environment,
> where you can debug, tweak, and re-test right in place.

Which you can anyway, with any decent build setup. Just press one key in
your editor to save, build, reload and run.

On 21 Oct 2024 23:09:48 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 21:00:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 21 Oct 2024 19:33:03 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Add up all those milliliters and pretty soon you have another bottle
>>> of booze to sell.
>>
>> Make them say “millilitres” first ... if they can’t, don’t sell it to
>> ’em ...
>
> Don't push it. The US may adopt more of the metric system but the fucked
> up Frechified spelling ain't gonna happen.

The French invented the system.

LOL to “fucked up” coming from a country which has “sulfur” but not
“fosforus” ...

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:58:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:53:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Once the Left introduced morality into politics it left the door open
>> for every kind of hatred and bigotry.
>
> I thought it was the Right, not the Left, that wanted to turn abortion
> rights from a health issue into a religious issue.

The left are just as religious in a secular sort of way. I do find it
amusing to see menopausal women all heated up about pro-choice. I don't
have a dog in the fight; neither do they.

Personally I don't want to see a Federal law either way; the issue should
be decided at the state or local level. If you don't like what the people
of the state decide, move.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 19:58:53 GMT, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>>>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>>
>>>Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of
>>>shrikflation.
>>
>> 750ml is fluid 25.36 ounces. 1/5 gallon is 25.60 fluid ounces.
>
>Thanks you Captain Obvious. Now do the math. How many .24 ounces do you
>have to collect before you have 750 ml? How many bottles do you think Jack
>Daniels fills a day?

On the scale of things, not that many.

Consider the dual reductions in roll width and number of sheets
in the leading brands of toilet tissue, multiplied by the
number of rolls shipped.

The savings for the switch to 750 ml from 1/5th gallon
is in the noise, especially since it occurred in 1975.

According to rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:
>>>Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of
>>>shrikflation.
>>
>> 750ml is fluid 25.36 ounces. 1/5 gallon is 25.60 fluid ounces.
>
>Thanks you Captain Obvious. Now do the math. How many .24 ounces do you
>have to collect before you have 750 ml? How many bottles do you think Jack
>Daniels fills a day?

A fifth is 757 ml so the difference is about 1%. There is a federal regulation,
27 CFR 19.356, which says that the fill level can vary by 2%, with about the
same number of over and underfills. So it's quite possible that a fifth actually
contains 750ml or a 750ml bottle contains a fifth.

If they really could fill that precisely, instead of 107 fifths, they'd have 108
750ml. I have trouble getting very excited about that.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 23:12:08 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 15:16:52 -0700, John Ames wrote:
>
>> ... "cross-compile on a separate machine" as a development process adds
>> steps that aren't necessary in an interactive, self-hosting
>> environment,
>> where you can debug, tweak, and re-test right in place.
>
> Which you can anyway, with any decent build setup. Just press one key in
> your editor to save, build, reload and run.

At least with the Pico the reload part means you need to use the debugging
interface or unplug/plug the USB cable while holding the BOOTSEL button.
The Pi exposes the GPIO pins for the debuger but a generic Linux box needs
another piece. Compiling the traditional blink programs isn't
instantaneous either.

One of the advantages of MicroPython for development is the firmware
allows the Pico to come up as /dev/ttyACMxxx so you can simply write
the .py file to the device.

Just because you have no use for Forth don't write it off.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 23:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> The French invented the system.

Yeah, at the same time they were chopping heads off and trying to create a
brand new culture. How did that work out for them?

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 12:00:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> I would say that they are capitalist grifters using social morality to
>> justify what they do.
>>
>> Same as the whole West.
>>
>> Socialism is the new opium of the people.
> Wait ... socialism is actually “capitalist” now? Does that make it good or
> bad?

There's always been socialism in the market economy working much like
the capitalists. Consider Credit Unions, socialist companies owned by
their members competing against capitalist banks. Various types of
Co-op's too.
It's always funny people like D who don't seem to have anything but
propaganda to inform them that socialism equals big government.
Dave

Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]
> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>
>> Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of shrikflation.
>> Add up all those milliliters and pretty soon you have another bottle of
>> booze to sell.
>
> I bought a 12-pack of Warsteiner Oktoberfest. The cans were roughly 11 oz each.
> A Samichlaus Classic triplebock can states that it is 16.9 oz and 330 ml.
> The 330 ml is correct, but the oz is nuts, that would be 500 ml. A quick googoo
> yields this:
>
> A volume of 12oz is 355ml, and this is still the standard in the US: in
> Europe it was converted to the round figure of about one-third of a litre,
> or 330ml.
>
> Goddam EU! :-)
>
> By the way, the triplebock is 14%. Very tasty, but I'm reserving it for a
> special treat.
>

The EU would be as likely to be using proper English gallons instead of
those little American ones, gallons that have 160 fl oz
Dave

On 22 Oct 2024 00:29:46 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> One of the advantages of MicroPython for development is the firmware
> allows the Pico to come up as /dev/ttyACMxxx so you can simply write the
> .py file to the device.
>
> Just because you have no use for Forth don't write it off.

With advanced things like MicroPython around (and feasible on modern
hardware), there is even less need for Forth than there was before.

On 21 Oct 2024 23:17:12 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 20:58:04 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:53:35 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> Once the Left introduced morality into politics it left the door open
>>> for every kind of hatred and bigotry.
>>
>> I thought it was the Right, not the Left, that wanted to turn abortion
>> rights from a health issue into a religious issue.
>
> The left are just as religious in a secular sort of way.

Is that supposed to be saying something good about religion, or something
bad?

> I do find it
> amusing to see menopausal women all heated up about pro-choice.

Or indeed, males who cannot have babies at all, also supporting such a
thing. You find it odd that human beings might want to support each other
in a common fight?

I never thought of compassion as a “left-wing” thing, but so be it ...

On 22 Oct 2024 00:44:34 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 23:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The French invented the system.
>
> Yeah, at the same time they were chopping heads off and trying to create
> a brand new culture. How did that work out for them?

It worked well enough that they were friends of yours, supporting your
revolution, too.

Have you forgotten where that big statue in New York City came from?

According to rbowman <bowman@montana.com>:
>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 23:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The French invented the system.
>
>Yeah, at the same time they were chopping heads off and trying to create a
>brand new culture. How did that work out for them?

Have you been to France? Pretty well if you ask me.

--
Regards,
John Levine, johnl@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 17:59:39 -0700, Dave Yeo wrote:

> The EU would be as likely to be using proper English gallons instead of
> those little American ones, gallons that have 160 fl oz Dave

Back when Canada was using Imperial gallons for gasoline and the exchange
rate was about par it felt like getting a discount. Now between the 1 USD
to .72 CAS and liters it feels very expensive.

1.439 x .72 x 3.79 isn't something I can work out standing by the pump. At
least kph to mph is fairly easy. Unfortunately when the road sign says 60
it doesn't really mean 60. mph.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 01:11:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 22 Oct 2024 00:29:46 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> One of the advantages of MicroPython for development is the firmware
>> allows the Pico to come up as /dev/ttyACMxxx so you can simply write
>> the .py file to the device.
>>
>> Just because you have no use for Forth don't write it off.
>
> With advanced things like MicroPython around (and feasible on modern
> hardware), there is even less need for Forth than there was before.

Have you ever developed for microprocessors? Have you ever used Forth? Are
you qualified to have an opinion in this context?

On 22 Oct 2024 04:43:49 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 01:11:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 22 Oct 2024 00:29:46 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> One of the advantages of MicroPython for development is the firmware
>>> allows the Pico to come up as /dev/ttyACMxxx so you can simply write
>>> the .py file to the device.
>>>
>>> Just because you have no use for Forth don't write it off.
>>
>> With advanced things like MicroPython around (and feasible on modern
>> hardware), there is even less need for Forth than there was before.
>
> Have you ever developed for microprocessors? Have you ever used Forth?

Yes and yes.

> Are you qualified to have an opinion in this context?

Unlike some people, I don’t need to claim to have particular
certifications in order to make my words seem credible.

On Tue, 22 Oct 2024 01:16:01 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 22 Oct 2024 00:44:34 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 23:14:14 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> The French invented the system.
>>
>> Yeah, at the same time they were chopping heads off and trying to
>> create a brand new culture. How did that work out for them?
>
> It worked well enough that they were friends of yours, supporting your
> revolution, too.

First off, what is called the American Revolution was hardly a revolution.
Rather it was a secession from Britain with quite a bit more drama than
when Britain lost the rest of its colonies.

The major organizer was the Marquis de Lafayette, a dues paying member of
the ancien régime. In truth he was a 19 year old glory seeker. He also was
miffed that the Brits had killed his father during the Seven Years War.

He was briefly arrested when he returned to France although Louis XVI
warmed to the cause, wanting payback from the Seven Years War and
Rochambeau was sent to America. Ot should also be noted France sat on the
fence until the rebels victory at Saratoga.

Aside: A hothead, Benedict Arnold, defied his general who preferred
lounging around in his tent well out of the path of danger, and attacked,
carrying the day. He was wounded in the leg leading to an interesting
monument.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boot_Monument

Back to Lafayette. He returned to France and resumed his aristocratic
life. Still a bit of a radical he worked with Jefferson to draft the
Declaration of the Rights of Man, another rose-colored bit of idealism.

Lafayette walked a tightrope since he was nobility and friendly with
Louis. His popularity waxed and waned with Robespierre and Danton
considering him a traitor. When Louis was locked up and Danton put out a
warrant for Lafayette he tried a runner to the US but the Austrians
arrested him. Washington and others in the US sent aid but it was
delicate, the US being in the Quasi War with the First Republic by then.
Part of that little undeclared war was due to the US weaseling out of
repaying French loans, By then all was forgiven and the US was in bed with
Britain again.

Lafayette finally made it back to France when Napoleon took over.

> Have you forgotten where that big statue in New York City came from?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statue_of_Liberty

And have you forgotten the motivations behind that somewhat reluctant
crowd-funded project? It's a wonder it wasn't stuck in a warehouse in
Hunt's Point, forlorn and forgotten. It was sort of a white elephant;
we'll give you the statue but you've got to build the pedestal.

We can build better statues out of spare parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Lady_of_the_Rockies