On 19 Oct 2024 18:59:25 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Yugoslavia was another one of those ill-advised creations after WWI.
> "We'll draw a line around these people that hate each other and call it
> a country."

In your case you fought a civil war that succeeded in forcing them back
together again. In Yugoslavia, the war went another way.

What common principle can you draw from both these cases?

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:26:16 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-18, 186282ud0s3 <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>
>> I wonder how much CPU goes into nothing but displaying nice-looking
>> proportional fonts these days ?
>
> A lot, no doubt.

The original Apple Mac was managing that on a CPU that ran at a nominal
8MHz clock speed.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:26:14 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-18, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 18:44:26 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> I wrote some routines to generate my columnar reports in PDF. On the
>>> whole it worked fairly well, but I never found a way to right-justify
>>> a field. Then it became a pain in the ass.
>>
>> You mean “right-align”, not “right-justify”. Here’s a routine that does
>> alignment of text within a given line width, based on the current
>> point, using the current font settings. It can do left-align,
>> right-align, centre-align and anything in-between.
>
> <snip sample code>
>
> Thanks. I've stored that for future reference.

And if you want to see the actual output from that complete script,
it’s here:
<https://www.deviantart.com/default-cube/art/Text-Align-Justify-521316812>.

>> That comes from the “text_align_justify” example in this repo
>> <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah_examples>.
>
> I had a hard time finding detailed PDF documentation that I was
> beginning to wonder whether I was looking for trade secrets...

Mine is just one of many wrappers for the Cairo 2D graphics API
<https://www.cairographics.org/>. I like to think of my wrapper as the
most “Pythonic” one, since I tried to make it look like the graphics
API was designed for Python.

I also put together some Jupyter notebooks illustrating various aspects
of the Cairo+Qahirah API <https://gitlab.com/ldo/qahirah_notebooks>.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:50:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>> Read Tacitus for example.
>
> Fictional/hypothetical society, or real society?

Publius Cornelius Tacitus writing about the Germanic people on 'De origine
et situ Germanorum', aka 'Germania'. He was one of the to describe a
Thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thing_(assembly)

Eventually kings showed up on the scene, often in conjunction with
Christianity.

More recent examples are many of the indigenous tribe in North America.
Like the early Teutons there might be a war chief when they were going to
war. That was the guy who survived the last war and had shown some gifts
for tactics and strategy. Likewise when they went hunting the best hunter
would lead.

Russell Means had a humorous take on it. The whites would show up and want
to talk to the chief. They would look around and pick the best bullshit
artist, not necessarily someone they paid any attention to.

What were the Māori doing before the white man showed up?

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:52:20 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 19 Oct 2024 18:59:25 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Yugoslavia was another one of those ill-advised creations after WWI.
>> "We'll draw a line around these people that hate each other and call it
>> a country."
>
> In your case you fought a civil war that succeeded in forcing them back
> together again. In Yugoslavia, the war went another way.
>
> What common principle can you draw from both these cases?

Might makes right. While the Brits made a half-hearted attempt to support
the South the US Civil War didn't have Bill Clinton bombing one side.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/americas-forgotten-bullshit-
bombing-of-serbia/

To Clinton's credit he did put the Yugo out of its misery. Only communists
could try to create a Fiat 127 knockoff and fail so spectacularly.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 22:11:13 +0200, D wrote:

> True. A small isolated patch of land surrounded by blood thirsty
> barbarians. Maybe the next step could be for them to dismantle their
> temple, and just move all the stones, and rebuild it somewhere else?

Like the London Bridge?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)

Only in Arizona do you build a bridge on dry land and then dig a river
under it.

On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:26:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> The ancient Greeks had the only solution: checks and balances. Because
>>> “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
>>
>> In one of his thought-provoking editorials, John W. Campbell, editor of
>> Analog Science Fiction (formerly Astounding), corrected that saying.
>> He pointed out that it's not so much power that corrupts, but immunity.
>> After all, you're less likely to abuse power if you know you might be
>> called to account for it.
>
> That’s what “checks and balances” are all about.

Which is why the dangerous politicians try to dismantle or circumvent them.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 10/6/24 11:02 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 16:06:14 -0600, Louis Krupp wrote:
>
>> GNU Forth... I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.
>
> https://gforth.org/manual/Forth-is-written-in-Forth.html
>
> Forth is an odd beast. There is a very small engine that has to be built
> for the processor in question to handle words.
>
> https://github.com/forthy42/gforth/tree/master/engine
>
> gcc can handle that since it is C code.

The original Chuck Moore FORTH slightly pre-dates the
i4004 chip.

As a half-a-step above ASM the syntax is (sort of) more
readable. The 'stack' approach to dealing with both
commands and data could be implemented very simply
(but you HAD to be fully aware of what was on the
stack exactly where). FORTH also supports subroutines
and you can make a lib of those.

The interpreter can be VERY small - fit into a little
old ROM chip. I think one company made CPUs with an
inbuilt FORTH kernel. It is reported that the first
language ported to the new 8088/8086 processors way
back was FORTH.

It was especially popular in the 70s/80s for minimal
systems - especially for academia/space. If you had a
telescope on a mountaintop in Chile and a 110 baud
connection then you could still easily edit/test
the control program from sunny Cal. I know an old
astronomer - he is still fluent in FORTH.

Modern chips/systems and 4/5-G or sat connections have
kinda made FORTH redundant - but it may still have a
place for some 'industrial' and remote-sense apps
using power around that of an Arduino or less.

Interpreters can be handy sometimes.

Somewhere I've got a 'CPL' interpreter. CPL
became BCPL which became 'B' which became 'C'.

gFORTH is kind of a 'cheat' - just a translator
into 'C'. What you want is a native interpreter.

https://www.forth.org/compilers.html

SOMEWHERE I came across a whole FORTH dev environment
for Linux but accidentally deleted it.

On 20 Oct 2024 01:36:32 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:50:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>> Read Tacitus for example.
>>
>> Fictional/hypothetical society, or real society?
>
> Publius Cornelius Tacitus writing about the Germanic people on 'De
> origine et situ Germanorum', aka 'Germania'.

So he was the Margaret Mead of his day. How sweet.

What, you thought the “Noble Savage” myth was some modern thing?

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 03:57:09 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:26:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The ancient Greeks had the only solution: checks and balances.
>>>> Because “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
>>>
>>> In one of his thought-provoking editorials, John W. Campbell, editor
>>> of Analog Science Fiction (formerly Astounding), corrected that
>>> saying. He pointed out that it's not so much power that corrupts, but
>>> immunity. After all, you're less likely to abuse power if you know you
>>> might be called to account for it.
>>
>> That’s what “checks and balances” are all about.
>
> Which is why the dangerous politicians try to dismantle or circumvent
> them.

That’s why you have more checks and balances: an independent judiciary, en
electoral commission that operates transparently and free from political
interference, a free press, and an electorate that stays informed about
what is being done in their name by their leaders.

In alt.folklore.computers 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> On 10/6/24 11:02 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 6 Oct 2024 16:06:14 -0600, Louis Krupp wrote:
>>
>>> GNU Forth... I don't know enough about it to have an opinion.
>>
>> https://gforth.org/manual/Forth-is-written-in-Forth.html
>>
>> Forth is an odd beast. There is a very small engine that has to be built
>> for the processor in question to handle words.
>>
>> https://github.com/forthy42/gforth/tree/master/engine
>>
>> gcc can handle that since it is C code.
>
>
> The original Chuck Moore FORTH slightly pre-dates the
> i4004 chip.
>
> As a half-a-step above ASM the syntax is (sort of) more
> readable. The 'stack' approach to dealing with both
> commands and data could be implemented very simply
> (but you HAD to be fully aware of what was on the
> stack exactly where). FORTH also supports subroutines
> and you can make a lib of those.
>
> The interpreter can be VERY small - fit into a little
> old ROM chip. I think one company made CPUs with an
> inbuilt FORTH kernel. It is reported that the first
> language ported to the new 8088/8086 processors way
> back was FORTH.
>
> It was especially popular in the 70s/80s for minimal
> systems - especially for academia/space. If you had a
> telescope on a mountaintop in Chile and a 110 baud
> connection then you could still easily edit/test
> the control program from sunny Cal. I know an old
> astronomer - he is still fluent in FORTH.
>
> Modern chips/systems and 4/5-G or sat connections have
> kinda made FORTH redundant - but it may still have a
> place for some 'industrial' and remote-sense apps
> using power around that of an Arduino or less.
>
> Interpreters can be handy sometimes.
>
> Somewhere I've got a 'CPL' interpreter. CPL
> became BCPL which became 'B' which became 'C'.
>
> gFORTH is kind of a 'cheat' - just a translator
> into 'C'. What you want is a native interpreter.
>
> https://www.forth.org/compilers.html
>
> SOMEWHERE I came across a whole FORTH dev environment
> for Linux but accidentally deleted it.

This reminded me of a time in the early 80s when I had figforth running on
apple ][+. I needed help and found out there was a forth interest group in my
city. I went along to a meeting and found they were all uni students (way
above me). But they weren't using forth. They preferred a similar language
called stoic that ran on 8080 cpm computers. It had strings and floating
point! It was the floating point I missed and the reason I gave up on forth.

I just spent some time googling for it and found archived docs and source on
github. FYI

https://github.com/tendai22/stoic_8080

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 06:22:04 -0000 (UTC), Peter Dean wrote:

> https://github.com/tendai22/stoic_8080

Not Open Source.

In alt.folklore.computers Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 06:22:04 -0000 (UTC), Peter Dean wrote:
>
>> https://github.com/tendai22/stoic_8080
>
> Not Open Source.

Folklore value?

On 20/10/2024 02:52, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:52:20 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 19 Oct 2024 18:59:25 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Yugoslavia was another one of those ill-advised creations after WWI.
>>> "We'll draw a line around these people that hate each other and call it
>>> a country."
>>
>> In your case you fought a civil war that succeeded in forcing them back
>> together again. In Yugoslavia, the war went another way.
>>
>> What common principle can you draw from both these cases?
>
> Might makes right. While the Brits made a half-hearted attempt to support
> the South the US Civil War didn't have Bill Clinton bombing one side.
>
> https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/08/20/americas-forgotten-bullshit-
> bombing-of-serbia/
>
> To Clinton's credit he did put the Yugo out of its misery. Only communists
> could try to create a Fiat 127 knockoff and fail so spectacularly.

IIRC Fiat sold the whole production line and dies to them, rather as the
UK gave the Indians the Morris Oxford.

Which may still be in production. Oh. it stopped in 2010. See the
Hindustan Ambassador .

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 22:11:13 +0200, D wrote:
>
>
>> True. A small isolated patch of land surrounded by blood thirsty
>> barbarians. Maybe the next step could be for them to dismantle their
>> temple, and just move all the stones, and rebuild it somewhere else?
>
> Like the London Bridge?
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Bridge_(Lake_Havasu_City)
>
> Only in Arizona do you build a bridge on dry land and then dig a river
> under it.
>

Excellent example!

On 20/10/2024 04:57, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:26:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The ancient Greeks had the only solution: checks and balances. Because
>>>> “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
>>>
>>> In one of his thought-provoking editorials, John W. Campbell, editor of
>>> Analog Science Fiction (formerly Astounding), corrected that saying.
>>> He pointed out that it's not so much power that corrupts, but immunity.
>>> After all, you're less likely to abuse power if you know you might be
>>> called to account for it.
>>
>> That’s what “checks and balances” are all about.
>
> Which is why the dangerous politicians try to dismantle or circumvent them.
>

If you study the history of modern democracy, you find that regime
change was traditionally accomplished by a civil war, a palace coup, or
unfortunate accidents to the reigning monarch.

This, in Britain culminated in the beheading of Charles I, but what
followed - a sort of puritan theocracy/communism - was so distasteful
that the rich chaps got together and asked Charles II to come back and
take over.

Then to stop it happening again, parliament was given more powers and
the price of its support was that the King had to toe the line, and
regime change happened via elections instead.

France failed to learn the lesson, and its revolutionary change led
eventually to YAEDEWIA - Yet Another European Dictator-Emperor With
Attitude.
And sadly that has been the pattern in Europe, No more kings and queens,
just nasty little men in suits doing shabby little deals more or less
without the public's consent.
Franco, Mussolini, Hitler, Caecescu, Putin.

Europe isn't happy with democracy. It is in love with communism really -
the EU was designed by a communist Italian whilst in jail - and it has
been thoroughly infiltrated by communists ever since.

And is busy removing all the checks and balances.

Did you know that no member of the EU bureaucracy can either be sacked
lose their pension or be prosecuted?

They are literally above the law.

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 10:21:40 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> IIRC Fiat sold the whole production line and dies to them, rather as the
> UK gave the Indians the Morris Oxford.
>
> Which may still be in production. Oh. it stopped in 2010. See the
> Hindustan Ambassador .

I don't know about the Morris but India managed to improve the Royal
Enfield breed.

On 2024-10-20, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 03:57:09 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 17:26:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2024-10-19, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The ancient Greeks had the only solution: checks and balances.
>>>>> Because “power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely”.
>>>>
>>>> In one of his thought-provoking editorials, John W. Campbell, editor
>>>> of Analog Science Fiction (formerly Astounding), corrected that
>>>> saying. He pointed out that it's not so much power that corrupts, but
>>>> immunity. After all, you're less likely to abuse power if you know you
>>>> might be called to account for it.
>>>
>>> That’s what “checks and balances” are all about.
>>
>> Which is why the dangerous politicians try to dismantle or circumvent
>> them.
>
> That’s why you have more checks and balances: an independent judiciary, en
> electoral commission that operates transparently and free from political
> interference, a free press, and an electorate that stays informed about
> what is being done in their name by their leaders.

All of which are being dismantled in the U.S.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 2024-10-20, Peter Dean <p.dean@invalid.net> wrote:

> This reminded me of a time in the early 80s when I had figforth running on
> apple ][+.

I got a CP/M version of it running on my IMSAI. I had fun puttering
with it for a while, and even wrote a Sieve of Eratosthenes in it.

Forth love if honk then

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 17/10/2024 15:10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> The facts are that Democratic administrations have been shown to
>>>> provide far better economic growth than any Republican administration,
>>>> and far less gets added to the deficit and ultimately the debt.
>>>
>>> My impression is that it is in fact the reverse.
>>
>> Your impressions aren't facts. Look it up.
>>
>> https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/10/the-u-s-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents
>>
>
> Nice try Scott. A .gov article in election times, of course they'll sell
> the democrats. Try harder next time! ;)
>
> It is a logical fact that republicans are good for the economy long term,
> and that socialism trashes the economy. You cannot argue against this in
> any credible way.
>

Except that no one running is a Socialist. In European terms this would be
Social Democrats against AfD or Marine LePen’s group, or the NSDAP.

--
Pete

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>> On 17/10/2024 16:14, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On 17/10/2024 15:10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> The facts are that Democratic administrations have been shown to
>>>>>> provide far better economic growth than any Republican administration,
>>>>>> and far less gets added to the deficit and ultimately the debt.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression is that it is in fact the reverse.
>>>>
>>>> Your impressions aren't facts. Look it up.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/10/the-u-s-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents
>>>
>>> Now where is the taxation level in that?
>>> Any fool, especially a democrat fool, can tax more and create employment
>>> in makework public sector jobs.
>>
>> Moving the goalposts is typical for you. There's no evidence
>> for 'makework public sector jobs' in that report.
>>
>> The economy was just fine with the tax rates during the
>> clinton administration, for example. The bush cuts
>> and orange clown cuts benefited the ultra-rich, not
>> the typical US citizen. Trump's tariffs hurt the
>> poor and the middle class, not China. Even Reagan
>> raised taxes the last seven years of his two terms
>> as his advisors (except the psychic) recommended.
>>
>
> Hello inflation! Don't clown around Scott, you knows as well as we do that
> the socialist democrats are an utter catastrophy for the economy. And no,
> doping doesn't count and remember that the master of debt is the negro who
> was a democrat.
>

You’re a lagging indicator. Inflation is down now, after correcting for the
damage wrought
by The Former Guy.

--
Pete

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:09:13 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> Said the Germans in 1932
>
> I don’t recall the Americans objecting much back then.
>

Wasn’t our country, and, just like Trump in 2016, no one believed he would
actually do what he said.

--
Pete

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:39:22 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Still, those stories of German businessmen meeting with their U.S.
>> counterparts in New York in 1940 are a bit chilling.
>
> https://www.americanheritage.com/how-america-helped-build-soviet-machine
>
> "In the 1920s the cream of American firms involved with automobiles,
> electricity, and workplace management were eager to sell the state of
> their art—give or take a few years—to the “Reds,” despite powerful
> anticommunist voices on the right. The Soviets were ready to buy, despite
> their aversion to capitalism. (They distinguished, as many Americans
> cannot even today, between America’s history-shaping means of production
> and our free-enterprise economic superstructure.) The United States had
> never enjoyed greater worldwide respect—or envy—than after World War I.
> The Soviets believed that the American system of production could
> consolidate the Bolshevik Revolution."
>
> https://it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-
> war-ii/
>
> Which was the evil empire depended only on who lost the war.
>

The Russians killed a lot more people than the Germans. They’ve just
managed to mostly keep,it under cover all these years.

--
Pete

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:47:07 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Slaughtering his own people → OK.
>> Invading another country (Poland) → not OK.
>
> That's a simplistic treatment of Poland. Britain was stupid enough to
> pledge support to Poland. Poland was stupid enough to believe the Brits
> were in a position to support anything and got on their high horses,
> refusing to allow a corridor connecting Germany to East Prussia.
>
> For whatever inexplicable reason the Brits didn't lose the entire BEF and
> managed to bring them home using every rowboat they could beg, borrow, or
> steal.
>
> When someone says they have your back make sure they can deliver.
>

I would imagine that’s what most countries are saying about the US these
days. I wouldn’t trust us.

--
Pete

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:50:46 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> The need for it has been 'depricated'. However it was one of the more
>> confusing bits of the language. You can still see vestiges of it in
>> some Python, even Pascal, fine-formatting commands however.
>
> C did it better. That’s why so many other languages copied the C-style
> printf language, not Fortran’s FORMAT system.
>

Lifted directly from Multics.

--
Pete