On 21 Oct 2024 01:33:16 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Forth love if honk then
>>
>> PostScript love {honk} if
>
> HP-16C

Forth is only fit for a museum. PostScript itself, and its original
graphics model, may only be museum-quality now, but there are some
interesting ideas there that deserve further scrutiny. Like its
homoiconicity.

In alt.folklore.computers rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Forth love if honk then
>>
>> PostScript love {honk} if
>
> HP-16C
>
> CAFE BABE +
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-16C
>
> I liked leaving mine laying around. If the RPN didn't get them the hex
> would.

may as well mention hp48
reverse polish lisp

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 03:30:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Forth is only fit for a museum.

https://www.hackster.io/news/mecrisp-stellaris-port-brings-the-forth-
programming-language-to-the-raspberry-pi-pico-rp2040-4c8e7077ae64

Alive and well... There are other Forth implementations for the Cortex-M
processors.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:

> Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> You???re a lagging indicator. Inflation is down now, after correcting for the
>> damage wrought
>> by The Former Guy.
>
> Ignore the D troll, Pete. No point in refuting completely bogus nonsense.
>

Incorrect Scott, you lose again as usual!

On 21 Oct 2024 06:51:09 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 03:30:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Forth is only fit for a museum.
>
> Alive and well...

Why would anyone want to use it, though?

On 20/10/2024 20:04, Peter Flass wrote:
> That may be true, but often their thinking is informed by a collection of
> unhinged conspiracy theories. Their thinking may be logical, following from
> that, but they seem incapable of separating truth from fantasy.

The problem is that once you catch your government lying to you on one
thing you know a lot about, it becomes easy to assume they are lying to
you about everything else.

Why for example might you believe that that oh - people really landed on
the moon - when every Hollyood scifi movie has people landing on other
planets that look a lot more convincing.

And your government told you that none of them ever took bribes. No
sirreee bob!

The only difference between conspiracy theories that you believe, and
ones that you don't, is that the former fit with your innate prejudice
and the latter do not.

Plus the Bandar Log-ic of 'we all say it, so it must be true'

If you look deeply into the philosophy of inductive logic, it is simply
not possible to disprove or prove many things that are apparently
manifestly true, like saying 'the sun will rise tomorrow'

Just because it always has in the past.

Conspiracy theories are only unhinged from a personal perspective, so
for example some dude in Utah gets told the North Koreans are attacking
Ukraine and says 'who? So what? Not my problem? Probably not even true'

Which from his limited perspective is a perfectly reasonable position.
Just as the Islamic fundamentalist in the middle east gets told 'The
Americans bomb us for no reason', believes it and you have 911.

Which is then spun into controlled demolition by the CIA to excuse a
war in Iraq, of all places, which had nothing to do with it.

My point is that its pretty much all a tissue of lies propaganda,
ignorance, incompetence and so on. And as the Left has been saying
'reality is a social construct' for years it now comes back to bite
them, as the Right says 'well here's OUR social construct and shove it
up your Blue liberal asses'

Which is why the Lefts insistence on moving politics away from
pragmatism towards moralism is so fucking dangerous. As is their
spinning of every single thing into an extreme point of view. The Left
feels *morally justified* in what they do, and there is nothing more
dangerous than that. Ask any Jihadist. Do you think 911 was 'morally
justified' and the answer will be 'hell yeah!'

You cant argue with facts, but you can argue all day over right and
wrong and fair and unfair.

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

On 20/10/2024 20:59, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Europe isn't happy with democracy. It is in love with communism really
>> - the EU was designed by a communist Italian whilst in jail - and it
>> has been thoroughly infiltrated by communists ever since.
>
> This is the truth. One just has to follow the current eco-fascist and
> pro-surveillance b.s. in the EU to their logical conclusion, and the end
> goal is a new soviet union.
>
> The politicians will become the new nobility, and the population the
> serfs labouring under 100% taxes. Meanwhile the new nobility travel with
> private jets, eat luxury dinners and enjoy luxury prostitutes.
>
>> And is busy removing all the checks and balances.
>
> True, that's why chat control is pushed so hard. That way the
> politicians will have total control over everyones lives, and given the
> 1000s of laws in the EU, any single EU citizen will be able to be
> convicted of something.
>
>> Did you know that no member of the EU bureaucracy can either be sacked
>> lose their pension or be prosecuted?
>
> Yep. Add to that, that they get a huge part of their salary tax free. I
> wouldn't be surprised if, after only one term, they get pension for
> life.
>
>> They are literally above the law.
>
> True.
>
> The sad part about all of this is that what will happen is that the EU
> nobility will push too hard. This will lead to the extreme left getting
> power in some countries, the extreme right in some others countries, and
> then we'll have ourselves some nice low-intensive civil wars.
>

In fact what is happening is a massive swing to the right in many EU
nations.
In particular they are sick of unrestricted immigration from the middle
east (Europes Mexico) they are sick of massively expensive renewable
energy that has not budged the rate of CO2 rise one iota, and they are
sick of being moralised at and told that Jesus was in fact a black
transgender woman,

Unfortunately the right also has some unsavoury racist elements in it.

So its all a bit red devil and the deep blue sea

> If russia has not been stopped by then, they will use that moment of
> weakness to restore the soviet borders, perhaps leaving poland out of it
> due to fear of their military. But the baltics, ukraine, moldavia can
> all say "bye, bye".
>
> At the moment europe is a dying continent. Maybe a black swan (or rather
> a white knight!) will appear. We'll see!

Europe (not the EU) is absolutely capable of dispatching Russia if it
follows its NATO generals and not its politicians.

North Korea has now invaded Ukraine. I cant see the UK or Poland
standing idly by.

But if the USA keeps out it can kiss goodbye to the Pacific. China will
nore that 'Taiwan is not Americas Problem. Japan is nor Americas
problem' 'Lets take hawaii'.

--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 20/10/2024 21:01, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>> On 17/10/2024 15:10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>> The facts are that Democratic administrations have been shown to
>>>>>> provide far better economic growth than any Republican
>>>>>> administration,
>>>>>> and far less gets added to the deficit and ultimately the debt.
>>>>>
>>>>> My impression is that it is in fact the reverse.
>>>>
>>>> Your impressions aren't facts.  Look it up.
>>>>
>>>> https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/10/the-u-s-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice try Scott. A .gov article in election times, of course they'll sell
>>> the democrats. Try harder next time! ;)
>>>
>>> It is a logical fact that republicans are good for the economy long
>>> term,
>>> and that socialism trashes the economy. You cannot argue against this in
>>> any credible way.
>>>
>>
>> Except that no one running is a Socialist. In European terms this
>> would be
>> Social Democrats against AfD or Marine LePen’s group, or the NSDAP.
>>
>
> Incorrect. The democrats are socialists. I read somewhere that Camela is
> also trans, but don't have the energy to dig up the article.

I would say that they are capitalist grifters using social morality to
justify what they do.

Same as the whole West.

Socialism is the new opium of the people.

Got a problem? Give us more of your wealth and we will sort it out with
sweet sister socialsism.

--
WOKE is an acronym... Without Originality, Knowledge or Education.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-20, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> That’s why you have more checks and balances: an independent judiciary,
>>> en electoral commission that operates transparently and free from
>>> political interference, a free press, and an electorate that stays
>>> informed about what is being done in their name by their leaders.
>>
>> All of which are being dismantled in the U.S.
>
> Who was it who said: “the price of liberty is eternal vigilance”.
>
> There seems to be this assumption in the US that nobody else does it
> better. So if they cannot make a free, secular democracy based on the rule
> of law work, then nobody else can.

As an American, I have to say that America is *backward* and *dumb* in so many
ways, so many more than I ever realized. Especially in the last decade or so.

Just gonna open up this bottle of bourbon and chug it. <glug glug glug glug
glug glug glug glug glug ... ahhhhh>.

Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!

--
Edited for television.

On 21/10/2024 12:11, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

>
> As an American, I have to say that America is *backward* and *dumb* in so many
> ways, so many more than I ever realized. Especially in the last decade or so.
>
In some ways nostalgically innocent too. And therefore blessed by ignorance.

I cant criticise anyone for not knowing. Only maybe for not listening

> Just gonna open up this bottle of bourbon and chug it. <glug glug glug glug
> glug glug glug glug glug ... ahhhhh>.
>
> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>
I don't believe there is a metric quart. a litre is near enough. but larger

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 21/10/2024 12:11, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> As an American, I have to say that America is *backward* and *dumb* in so many
>> ways, so many more than I ever realized. Especially in the last decade or so.
>>
> In some ways nostalgically innocent too. And therefore blessed by ignorance.
>
> I cant criticise anyone for not knowing. Only maybe for not listening
>
>> Just gonna open up this bottle of bourbon and chug it. <glug glug glug glug
>> glug glug glug glug glug ... ahhhhh>.
>>
>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>
> I don't believe there is a metric quart. a litre is near enough. but larger

It's a joke about the American resistance to the metric system. (I copped it
from Proctor & Bergman).

--
One picture is worth more than ten thousand words.
-- Chinese proverb

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:41:38 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> Why would anyone want to use it, though?

For starters, it's about the simplest way to get a minimal interactive
system going on a homebrew/hobbyist computer project which still offers
full access to the bare metal; I was fairly amazed, looking into the
MaxiMite/DuinoMite community, to find a lovingly-crafted extended BASIC
which offered nothing at all in the way of a SYS/USR function. By
contrast, when I got a 65C02 homebrew system secondhand from somebody,
it took me about an hour and a half to get one of the various 6502
Forths up and running on it.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 00:13:15 -0400
"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

> The interpreter can be VERY small - fit into a little old ROM chip. I
> think one company made CPUs with an inbuilt FORTH kernel.

Yep, Rockwell for one made (I think a couple different) 6502 spinoff
MCU(s) with ROM Forth right on the chip.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:53:20 -0000 (UTC)
Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> The original Apple Mac was managing that on a CPU that ran at a
> nominal 8MHz clock speed.

Though that was static bitmap fonts. Still, pervasive realtime font
rendering has been a thing for *ages.*

On 2024-10-21, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Ask any Jihadist. Do you think 911 was 'morally
> justified' and the answer will be 'hell yeah!'

But... waitaminit... that's the same answer I got when I
asked a Trumpie whether The Donald won the 2020 election...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 2024-10-21, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:

> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On 21/10/2024 12:11, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> As an American, I have to say that America is *backward* and *dumb* in so many
>>> ways, so many more than I ever realized. Especially in the last decade or so.
>>
>> In some ways nostalgically innocent too. And therefore blessed by ignorance.
>>
>> I cant criticise anyone for not knowing. Only maybe for not listening
>>
>>> Just gonna open up this bottle of bourbon and chug it. <glug glug glug glug
>>> glug glug glug glug glug ... ahhhhh>.
>>>
>>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>>
>> I don't believe there is a metric quart. a litre is near enough. but larger
>
> It's a joke about the American resistance to the metric system. (I copped it
> from Proctor & Bergman).

There's a couple of names I haven't heard in a while
(along with Austin and Ossman).

"He's no fun, he fell right over."

> One picture is worth more than ten thousand words.
> -- Chinese proverb

But what if I'm looking for something that can be
concisely described in a hundred words? Even worse
is having to sit through a 20-minute YouTube video
to accomplish the same thing. Don't get me started...

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 21/10/2024 17:42, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-10-21, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Ask any Jihadist. Do you think 911 was 'morally
>> justified' and the answer will be 'hell yeah!'
>
> But... waitaminit... that's the same answer I got when I
> asked a Trumpie whether The Donald won the 2020 election...
>

How odd, Its the same answer I got when I asked a kid in the street if
he wanted an ice cream.

Once the Left introduced morality into politics it left the door open
for every kind of hatred and bigotry.

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

Charlie Gibbs wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 2024-10-21, Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote:
>
>> The Natural Philosopher wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> On 21/10/2024 12:11, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>>
>>>> As an American, I have to say that America is *backward* and *dumb* in so
>>>> many ways, so many more than I ever realized. Especially in the last
>>>> decade or so.
>>>
>>> In some ways nostalgically innocent too. And therefore blessed by
>>> ignorance.
>>>
>>> I cant criticise anyone for not knowing. Only maybe for not listening
>>>
>>>> Just gonna open up this bottle of bourbon and chug it. <glug glug glug glug
>>>> glug glug glug glug glug ... ahhhhh>.
>>>>
>>>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>>>
>>> I don't believe there is a metric quart. a litre is near enough. but larger
>>
>> It's a joke about the American resistance to the metric system. (I copped it
>> from Proctor & Bergman).
>
> There's a couple of names I haven't heard in a while
> (along with Austin and Ossman).
>
> "He's no fun, he fell right over."
>
>> One picture is worth more than ten thousand words.
>> -- Chinese proverb
>
> But what if I'm looking for something that can be
> concisely described in a hundred words? Even worse
> is having to sit through a 20-minute YouTube video
> to accomplish the same thing. Don't get me started...

I hate "explanation" sites which are text, not video, but they start with manyh
paragraphs explaining the subject of the question, before getting to the answer
to the question. And of course all interspersed with ads and links to other
ads and other topics.

Hiya friends! Ralph Spoilsport here from Ralph Spoilsport
Motors, the world's largest new used and used new automobile dealership:
Ralph Spoilsport Motors here in the city of Emphysema. Let's just look at
the extras on this fabulous car! Wire-wheel spoke fenders and two-way
sneeze through wind vents, star-studded mud guard, sponge-coated edible
steering column, chrome fender dents - and factory air conditioned air from
our fully factory-equipped air conditioned factory!

It's a beautiful car friends, with doors to match! Birch's Blacklist says
this car was stolen but for you friends a complete price: only
two-ninety-five hundred dollars in easy monthly payments of twenty dollars
a week twice a week and never on Sunday!

--
What does not destroy me, makes me stronger.
-- Nietzsche

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!

Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of shrikflation.
Add up all those milliliters and pretty soon you have another bottle of
booze to sell.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 20/10/2024 21:01, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2024 15:10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> The facts are that Democratic administrations have been shown to
>>>>>>> provide far better economic growth than any Republican administration,
>>>>>>> and far less gets added to the deficit and ultimately the debt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My impression is that it is in fact the reverse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your impressions aren't facts.  Look it up.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/10/the-u-s-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice try Scott. A .gov article in election times, of course they'll sell
>>>> the democrats. Try harder next time! ;)
>>>>
>>>> It is a logical fact that republicans are good for the economy long term,
>>>> and that socialism trashes the economy. You cannot argue against this in
>>>> any credible way.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Except that no one running is a Socialist. In European terms this would be
>>> Social Democrats against AfD or Marine LePen’s group, or the NSDAP.
>>>
>>
>> Incorrect. The democrats are socialists. I read somewhere that Camela is
>> also trans, but don't have the energy to dig up the article.
>
> I would say that they are capitalist grifters using social morality to
> justify what they do.
>
> Same as the whole West.
>
> Socialism is the new opium of the people.

That's a nice slogan!

> Got a problem? Give us more of your wealth and we will sort it out with sweet
> sister socialsism.

True.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>
>Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of shrikflation.

750ml is fluid 25.36 ounces. 1/5 gallon is 25.60 fluid ounces.

On 2024-10-21, Scott Lurndal <scott@slp53.sl.home> wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>>On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>>
>>Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of shrikflation.
>
> 750ml is fluid 25.36 ounces. 1/5 gallon is 25.60 fluid ounces.

1 gal = 3.8 liter (3800 ml) -> 1/5 of 3800 ml = 760 ml

So yes, 10 ml less per bottle. But 750 ml is an international standard.
The metric quart goes the other direction. (3800 / 4 = 950).

- Lars

["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.misc.]
rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:11:34 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Damn metric quarts! There's nothing to 'em!
>
> Replacing fifths with 750 ml bottles was another example of shrikflation.
> Add up all those milliliters and pretty soon you have another bottle of
> booze to sell.

I bought a 12-pack of Warsteiner Oktoberfest. The cans were roughly 11 oz each.
A Samichlaus Classic triplebock can states that it is 16.9 oz and 330 ml.
The 330 ml is correct, but the oz is nuts, that would be 500 ml. A quick googoo
yields this:

A volume of 12oz is 355ml, and this is still the standard in the US: in
Europe it was converted to the round figure of about one-third of a litre,
or 330ml.

Goddam EU! :-)

By the way, the triplebock is 14%. Very tasty, but I'm reserving it for a
special treat.

--
Lead me not into temptation... I can find it myself.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 07:55:43 -0700, John Ames wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 08:41:38 -0000 (UTC)
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Why would anyone want to use it, though?
>
> For starters, it's about the simplest way to get a minimal interactive
> system going on a homebrew/hobbyist computer project which still offers
> full access to the bare metal ...

But for an RP2040, you can already cross-compile C code from a Linux-based
host, like a Raspberry Pi. That will give you “full access to the bare
metal”, without the overheads of threaded code.

On Mon, 21 Oct 2024 11:50:09 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Why for example might you believe that that oh - people really landed on
> the moon - when every Hollyood scifi movie has people landing on other
> planets that look a lot more convincing.

Well, if you take your idea of “convincing” from Hollywood movies, then
you are indeed the kind of person that has the power elite rubbing their
hands with glee ...