Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 18 Oct 2024 04:52:57 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> The truth is nobody wanted a boatload of Jews.
>
> Even after the persecution of them over so many centuries as “Christ
> killers” culminated in the Nazi Holocaust, the lesson still wasn’t
> learned: instead of saying “why not just accept Jews as fellow Europeans
> and Americans”, it was “let’s give them a ‘homeland’ somewhere out of our
> sight and make them somebody else’s problem -- preferably somebody in no
> position to say no”.
>

After what happened to the Jews, they weren’t willing to trust other
countries’ good intentions. I thought that was silly in democracies like
the US … until recently.

--
Pete

186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> On 10/18/24 1:41 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On 18 Oct 2024 04:35:09 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Our source tree still has vestiges of Fortran that go back more than 20
>>> years and are strictly f77.
>>>
>>> recnum = 1 read(adrich,15,rec=recnum) totrec
>>> 15 format(i10)
>>>
>>> 100 if(recnum.gt.totrec) goto 500
>>> read(adrich,105,rec=recnum+1) ch
>>> 105 format(1a1)
>>
>> You know that Fortran 77 introduced if-then and do-while, right?
>>
>>> f-strings are the best thing that happened to Python recently.
>>
>> I still prefer printf-style formatting. It works across so many different
>> languages ... even Lisp.
>
> There are many attempts to do fine-format printing
> "easy". NONE really do it perfectly. Dunno if there
> *is* a 'perfect'.
>
> Printf is "ok". FORTRAN "format" is kinda OK. Python
> kinda borrows from both FORTRAN and 'C' as does
> Free Pascal.
>
> Of course TODAY, fine-formatting generally means
> something in a GUI, not for a terminal or line
> printer. I've got an old OKI pin-printer ... very
> noisy, but that's what "format" and such were for.
> Makes for nice tabular reports and paychecks.
>
> Oh, try Amazon or something and look at the PRICE
> of OKI pin printers these days !!! Kinda miss
> them ... the buzz sounded like you were DOING
> something :-)
>

PL/I’s PUT LIST does a pretty good job (except for spacing between fields),
but of course it knows the definitions of the data it’s printing.- number
of digits and decimal places for numeric, foe example. I find PUT LIST good
enough for most cases, and only fall back on PUT EDIT (with format) on
occasion.

--
Pete

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 17/10/2024 20:24, rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 11:03:48 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> They dont *care* what Donald is and has done. He doesn't preach to them
>>> like some goddam pastor at a revivalist meeting.
>>>
>>> Or call them 'deplorable' or insult their intelligence.
>>
>> You may be trying for irony but there is a lot of truth in that.
>
> I wasn't being sarcastic.
>
> Trump supporters are prevalent on the Internet. They are perfectly
> capable of sustaining intelligent conversation.
>
> That is as far as I can tell a reasonable description of what they think
> and feel.

That may be true, but often their thinking is informed by a collection of
unhinged conspiracy theories. Their thinking may be logical, following from
that, but they seem incapable of separating truth from fantasy.

To bring this thread back to computing, I originally thought that the
Internet democratizing what got published was a good thing, like giving the
Erin Brockavichs of the world their chance. Instead, without the editorial
control of “big media”, we’re getting a mostly concoction of half-baked
ideas, crazy theories, and outright lies.

Sure the media is biased, but the biases are known and can be accounted for
and corrected.

>
> The same thought permeates the soft right here in Britain. The feeling
> that they have been preached to and shat upon by moralising liberals who
> have never done a plumbing course in their lives.
>
> And the Tory party - who ought to be their natural home, are simply no
> better,
>
> Hence the rise of Reform allegedly now out polling Labour
>

--
Pete

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 20 Oct 2024 01:36:32 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:50:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>>> Read Tacitus for example.
>>>
>>> Fictional/hypothetical society, or real society?
>>
>> Publius Cornelius Tacitus writing about the Germanic people on 'De
>> origine et situ Germanorum', aka 'Germania'.
>
> So he was the Margaret Mead of his day. How sweet.
>
> What, you thought the “Noble Savage” myth was some modern thing?
>

In part he was building up the Germans to shame his own countrymen.

--
Pete

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Europe isn't happy with democracy. It is in love with communism really - the
> EU was designed by a communist Italian whilst in jail - and it has been
> thoroughly infiltrated by communists ever since.

This is the truth. One just has to follow the current eco-fascist and
pro-surveillance b.s. in the EU to their logical conclusion, and the end
goal is a new soviet union.

The politicians will become the new nobility, and the population the
serfs labouring under 100% taxes. Meanwhile the new nobility travel with
private jets, eat luxury dinners and enjoy luxury prostitutes.

> And is busy removing all the checks and balances.

True, that's why chat control is pushed so hard. That way the
politicians will have total control over everyones lives, and given the
1000s of laws in the EU, any single EU citizen will be able to be
convicted of something.

> Did you know that no member of the EU bureaucracy can either be sacked lose
> their pension or be prosecuted?

Yep. Add to that, that they get a huge part of their salary tax free. I
wouldn't be surprised if, after only one term, they get pension for
life.

> They are literally above the law.

True.

The sad part about all of this is that what will happen is that the EU
nobility will push too hard. This will lead to the extreme left getting
power in some countries, the extreme right in some others countries, and
then we'll have ourselves some nice low-intensive civil wars.

If russia has not been stopped by then, they will use that moment of
weakness to restore the soviet borders, perhaps leaving poland out of it
due to fear of their military. But the baltics, ukraine, moldavia can
all say "bye, bye".

At the moment europe is a dying continent. Maybe a black swan (or rather
a white knight!) will appear. We'll see!

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Peter Flass wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> On 17/10/2024 15:10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> The facts are that Democratic administrations have been shown to
>>>>> provide far better economic growth than any Republican administration,
>>>>> and far less gets added to the deficit and ultimately the debt.
>>>>
>>>> My impression is that it is in fact the reverse.
>>>
>>> Your impressions aren't facts. Look it up.
>>>
>>> https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/10/the-u-s-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents
>>>
>>
>> Nice try Scott. A .gov article in election times, of course they'll sell
>> the democrats. Try harder next time! ;)
>>
>> It is a logical fact that republicans are good for the economy long term,
>> and that socialism trashes the economy. You cannot argue against this in
>> any credible way.
>>
>
> Except that no one running is a Socialist. In European terms this would be
> Social Democrats against AfD or Marine LePen’s group, or the NSDAP.
>

Incorrect. The democrats are socialists. I read somewhere that Camela is
also trans, but don't have the energy to dig up the article.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Peter Flass wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>> On 17/10/2024 16:14, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>>>>>> On 17/10/2024 15:10, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>>>>> The facts are that Democratic administrations have been shown to
>>>>>>> provide far better economic growth than any Republican administration,
>>>>>>> and far less gets added to the deficit and ultimately the debt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My impression is that it is in fact the reverse.
>>>>>
>>>>> Your impressions aren't facts. Look it up.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.jec.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/democrats/2024/10/the-u-s-economy-performs-better-under-democratic-presidents
>>>>
>>>> Now where is the taxation level in that?
>>>> Any fool, especially a democrat fool, can tax more and create employment
>>>> in makework public sector jobs.
>>>
>>> Moving the goalposts is typical for you. There's no evidence
>>> for 'makework public sector jobs' in that report.
>>>
>>> The economy was just fine with the tax rates during the
>>> clinton administration, for example. The bush cuts
>>> and orange clown cuts benefited the ultra-rich, not
>>> the typical US citizen. Trump's tariffs hurt the
>>> poor and the middle class, not China. Even Reagan
>>> raised taxes the last seven years of his two terms
>>> as his advisors (except the psychic) recommended.
>>>
>>
>> Hello inflation! Don't clown around Scott, you knows as well as we do that
>> the socialist democrats are an utter catastrophy for the economy. And no,
>> doping doesn't count and remember that the master of debt is the negro who
>> was a democrat.
>>
>
> You’re a lagging indicator. Inflation is down now, after correcting for the
> damage wrought
> by The Former Guy.

Nonsense, people don't forget the damage done. They are way smarter than
that. But Trump will fix the country when he is coronated, don't you worry
about that.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024, Peter Flass wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 23:39:22 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> Still, those stories of German businessmen meeting with their U.S.
>>> counterparts in New York in 1940 are a bit chilling.
>>
>> https://www.americanheritage.com/how-america-helped-build-soviet-machine
>>
>> "In the 1920s the cream of American firms involved with automobiles,
>> electricity, and workplace management were eager to sell the state of
>> their art—give or take a few years—to the “Reds,” despite powerful
>> anticommunist voices on the right. The Soviets were ready to buy, despite
>> their aversion to capitalism. (They distinguished, as many Americans
>> cannot even today, between America’s history-shaping means of production
>> and our free-enterprise economic superstructure.) The United States had
>> never enjoyed greater worldwide respect—or envy—than after World War I.
>> The Soviets believed that the American system of production could
>> consolidate the Bolshevik Revolution."
>>
>> https://it.usembassy.gov/america-sent-gear-to-the-ussr-to-help-win-world-
>> war-ii/
>>
>> Which was the evil empire depended only on who lost the war.
>>
>
> The Russians killed a lot more people than the Germans. They’ve just
> managed to mostly keep,it under cover all these years.
>

No cover at all. Socialisms death count is about 100 million. That is why
the democrats must be stopped, or there will be many millions more added
in the civil war.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:38 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 18 Oct 2024 04:52:57 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> The truth is nobody wanted a boatload of Jews.
>>
>> Even after the persecution of them over so many centuries as “Christ
>> killers” culminated in the Nazi Holocaust, the lesson still wasn’t
>> learned: instead of saying “why not just accept Jews as fellow
>> Europeans and Americans”, it was “let’s give them a ‘homeland’
>> somewhere out of our sight and make them somebody else’s problem --
>> preferably somebody in no position to say no”.
>>
> After what happened to the Jews, they weren’t willing to trust other
> countries’ good intentions.

Actually, they were. Most of the world’s Jews still have no desire to live
in Israel. And many of them reject any claim that the Zionist state has to
speak on their behalf.

The excuse for setting up Israel was it would be a “safe place for Jews”.
Do you think it’s a “safe place for Jews” right now?

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:36 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> I would imagine that’s what most countries are saying about the US these
> days. I wouldn’t trust us.

Quite amusing to see Netanyahu complaining about the US dragging its feet
over keeping Israel supplied with more and more of that wonderful deadly
weaponry...

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:34 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:09:13 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Said the Germans in 1932
>>
>> I don’t recall the Americans objecting much back then.
>>
>> ... no one believed he would actually do what he said.

And even when he did start doing it, Americans still didn’t want to know.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-20, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> That’s why you have more checks and balances: an independent judiciary,
>> en electoral commission that operates transparently and free from
>> political interference, a free press, and an electorate that stays
>> informed about what is being done in their name by their leaders.
>
> All of which are being dismantled in the U.S.

Who was it who said: “the price of liberty is eternal vigilance”.

There seems to be this assumption in the US that nobody else does it
better. So if they cannot make a free, secular democracy based on the rule
of law work, then nobody else can.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 10:33:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Europe isn't happy with democracy. It is in love with communism really -
> the EU was designed by a communist Italian whilst in jail - and it has
> been thoroughly infiltrated by communists ever since.

“Communism” isn’t incompatible with “democracy”. For example, in Italy,
they have Communists who take part in democratic elections, and actually
achieve power that way, legitimately.

Funny how, in the US, the Communist party was banned as a threat to social
order, yet the KKK were allowed to continue spreading their violent
bigotry and hatred largely unchecked. Guess which one had managed to
thoroughly infiltrate the power elite, and which one had not?

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:32 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Except that no one running is a Socialist.

Don’t you know, people in the US consider most reasonable, moderate,
centrist political positions in other countries as “Socialist”.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Forth love if honk then

PostScript love {honk} if

Peter Flass <peter_flass@yahoo.com> writes:
>D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

>You’re a lagging indicator. Inflation is down now, after correcting for the
>damage wrought
> by The Former Guy.

Ignore the D troll, Pete. No point in refuting completely bogus nonsense.

Lynn Wheeler <lynn@garlic.com> writes:
> Later somewhat replay of the 1940 celebration, there was conference of
> 5000 industrialists and corporations from across the US at the
> Waldorf-Astoria, and in part because they had gotten such a bad
> reputation for the depression and supporting Nazis, as part of
> attempting to refurbish their horribly corrupt and venal image, they
> approved a major propaganda campaign to equate Capitalism with
> Christianity.
> "https://www.amazon.com/One-Nation-Under-God-Corporate-ebook/dp/B00PWX7R56/

... then "Was Harvard responsible for the rise of Putin" ... after
the fall of the Soviet Union, those sent over to teach capitalism were
more intent on looting the country (and the Russians needed a Russian to
oppose US looting). John Helmer: Convicted Fraudster Jonathan Hay,
Harvard's Man Who Wrecked Russia, Resurfaces in Ukraine
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/02/convicted-fraudster-jonathan-hay-harvards-man-who-wrecked-russia-resurfaces-in-ukraine.html
If you are unfamiliar with this fiasco, which was also the true
proximate cause of Larry Summers' ouster from Harvard, you must read an
extraordinary expose, How Harvard Lost Russia, from Institutional
Investor. I am told copies of this article were stuffed in every Harvard
faculty member's inbox the day Summers got a vote of no confidence and
resigned shortly thereafter.

.... snip ...

How Harvard lost Russia; The best and brightest of America's premier
university came to Moscow in the 1990s to teach Russians how to be
capitalists. This is the inside story of how their efforts led to
scandal and disgrace (gone 404, but lives on at wayback machine)
https://web.archive.org/web/20130211131020/http://www.institutionalinvestor.com/Article/1020662/How-Harvard-lost-Russia.html
Mostly, they hurt Russia and its hopes of establishing a lasting
framework for a stable Western-style capitalism, as Summers himself
acknowledged when he testified under oath in the U.S. lawsuit in
Cambridge in 2002. "The project was of enormous value," said Summers,
who by then had been installed as the president of Harvard. "Its
cessation was damaging to Russian economic reform and to the
U.S.-Russian relationship."

.... snip ...

There was proposal to establish 5000 local bank operations around Russia
(as part of promoting capitalism), running approx @$1m, needed sequence
of financial dealings starting with $5B of Russian natural resources
.... until financing was available for the bank institutions. All the
efforts collapsed with the US-style kleptocracy capitalism (which has a
long history predating the banana republics).

--
virtualization experience starting Jan1968, online at home since Mar1970

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:34 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 13:09:13 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>>
>>> Said the Germans in 1932
>>
>> I don’t recall the Americans objecting much back then.
>>
>>
> Wasn’t our country, and, just like Trump in 2016, no one believed he
> would actually do what he said.

So far Trump hasn't written a book detailing his plans while in prison. At
his age it isn't an option. It's rather unique for a politician to do much
of what he said he was going to do ten years prior. In the case of the US
ten months is stretching it.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:35 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> The Russians killed a lot more people than the Germans. They’ve just
> managed to mostly keep,it under cover all these years.

When I saw 'Dr Zhivago' in 1965 I was confused. 60 years later I started
reading Neal Stephenson's new novel 'Polostan' and I'm still confused
although I've read a lot more history in the meantime. My main takeaway is
the Soviets were good at eating their own be they Cossack or kulaks, and
other random victims like the Polish officer corps at Katyn Forest.
Years ago I read Kuznetsov's book, 'Babi Yar'. iirc some of the Ukrainians
in Kiev liked a good massacre too. Some of that history came back to light
in connection with the Azov Brigade's history.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:32 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Except that no one running is a Socialist. In European terms this would
> be Social Democrats against AfD or Marine LePen’s group, or the NSDAP.

Bernie Sanders gave it a try and got chopped off at the knees twice. I
think he is confused when he calls himself a democratic socialist. He's a
garden variety social democrat. The DSA claims him in lieu of anyone
better.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:37:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 19:00:52 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Forth love if honk then
>
> PostScript love {honk} if

HP-16C

CAFE BABE +

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-16C

I liked leaving mine laying around. If the RPN didn't get them the hex
would.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:30:08 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Who was it who said: “the price of liberty is eternal vigilance”.

https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html

"persevering lying. the British ministry have so long hired their
gazetteers to repeat and model into every form lies about our being in
anarchy, that the world has at length believed them, the English nation
has believed them, the ministers themselves have come to believe them, &
what is more wonderful, we have believed them ourselves. yet where does
this anarchy exist? where did it ever exist, except in the single instance
of Massachusets? and can history produce an instance of a rebellion so
honourably conducted? I say nothing of it's motives. they were founded in
ignorance, not wickedness. god forbid we should ever be 20 years without
such a rebellion. the people cannot be all, & always, well informed. the
part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance
of the facts they misconceive; if they remain quiet under such
misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public
liberty. we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one
rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each
state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a
rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are
not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of
resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to
facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or
two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure. our Convention has
been too much impressed by. . ."

Thomas Jefferson

I believe what he was referring to in Massachisetts was Shays' Rebellon.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays's_Rebellion

The tree is looking a little wilted.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:23:02 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> The excuse for setting up Israel was it would be a “safe place for
> Jews”.
> Do you think it’s a “safe place for Jews” right now?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Killings_and_massacres_during_the_1948_Palestine_war

It didn't start well.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 21:24:58 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 12:04:36 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:
>
>> I would imagine that’s what most countries are saying about the US
>> these days. I wouldn’t trust us.
>
> Quite amusing to see Netanyahu complaining about the US dragging its
> feet over keeping Israel supplied with more and more of that wonderful
> deadly weaponry...

Bibi will have to work it out with Zelensky. There's only so much water in
the well.

On 2024-10-21, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> So far Trump hasn't written a book detailing his plans while in prison. At
> his age it isn't an option. It's rather unique for a politician to do much
> of what he said he was going to do ten years prior. In the case of the US
> ten months is stretching it.

Time wounds all heels.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut