On 09/07/2024 10:42, Popping Mad wrote:
> On 7/8/24 10:10 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>> moving to Linux..
>
>
> That is bullshit. You think it is easy to get Windows to do ANYTHING?
> That was never true, not even before ximian, and it is still not true.
>
The only reason Windows is popular is because it comes pre-installed on
computers, and many 3rd party apps will only run on it.

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 2024-07-08, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:51:16 -0000 (UTC), Simon wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>>
>>
>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>
> I read 'first' as the first OS a person was exposed to.

OK, I thought it was first as in primary, my bad.
--
Simon

RLU: 222126

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024, yeti wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:42:40 +0042, yeti wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
>>>> everything awk does,
>>>
>>> Like being present in OpenWrt and BSD's default install?
>>
>> That’s why this thread is about stuff you want to make sure is present,
>> not relying on the distro defaults.
>
> I mentioned to *install* MAWK because of -We and then it was YOU who
> turned that into a "PERL is better" discussion.
>

Note that Lawrence thrives on conflict. His classic move is to refuse to
answer your arguments, reframe or rephrase the original question and act
as if that was what you were talking about all along.

Take a good piece of advice and just ignore him.

D <nospam@example.net> writes:

> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024, yeti wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:42:40 +0042, yeti wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>>
>>>>> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
>>>>> everything awk does,
>>>>
>>>> Like being present in OpenWrt and BSD's default install?
>>>
>>> That’s why this thread is about stuff you want to make sure is present,
>>> not relying on the distro defaults.
>>
>> I mentioned to *install* MAWK because of -We and then it was YOU who
>> turned that into a "PERL is better" discussion.
>
> Note that Lawrence thrives on conflict. His classic move is to refuse
> to answer your arguments, reframe or rephrase the original question
> and act as if that was what you were talking about all along.

Ok, that's good news: I'm not hallucinating... \o/

> Take a good piece of advice and just ignore him.

Yip.

--
4. Hitchhiker 11:
(72) "Watch the road!'' she yelped.
(73) "Shit!"

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 9 Jul 2024 09:11:16 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>> ffmpeg
>>>
>>> The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there's a format or codec it
>>> doesn't handle, it's because that format or codec simply isn't worth
>>> using.
>>
>> Indeed, although it's unfortunate that the ways to do some seemingly
>> easy things like joining two video files together can require a very
>> complicated set of command-line options.
>
> Because some file formats (e.g. MPEG-4) do not work if you simply
> concatenate files.

Well yeah, otherwise I'd just use Cat. Anyway thankfully I don't
have to do it often. Last time was to set up a scripted process for
someone to get video 'scenes' off their camera as one continuous
video, then they never used it and changed their mind about
learning to use a video editor program, which they'd adamantly
refused to do when I suggested it in the first place. Huff.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 09:45:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Because it has been released way before all the bugs, inconsistencies
> and documentation have been sorted out.

Nobody should be expressing an opinion about systemd before reading this
first: <http://0pointer.de/blog/projects/the-biggest-myths.html>.

> As well as all the third party apps invoked by it having to change
> their startup scripts and methodologies.

It actually offers better backward compatibility with sysvinit than some
other alternative init systems.

On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 09:08:25 +0042, yeti wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:42:40 +0042, yeti wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>>
>>>> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
>>>> everything awk does,
>>>
>>> Like being present in OpenWrt and BSD's default install?
>>
>> That’s why this thread is about stuff you want to make sure is present,
>> not relying on the distro defaults.
>
> I mentioned to *install* MAWK because of -We and then it was YOU who
> turned that into a "PERL is better" discussion.

And then you seemed to forget about that “install” part, didn’t you?

On 10 Jul 2024 08:44:31 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> Last time was to set up a scripted process for someone to
> get video 'scenes' off their camera as one continuous video ...

Remember to use “-c copy” to avoid reencoding any of the data (with
consequent quality loss). That way it just gets repacked into the new
file, which is also a lot faster.

On 2024-07-09, Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> wrote:
> On 7/8/24 10:10 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>> moving to Linux..
>
>
> That is bullshit. You think it is easy to get Windows to do ANYTHING?
> That was never true, not even before ximian, and it is still not true.
>

I agree, Windows was quite difficult too. Back in the Windows 95/98
days I had to reinstall a few times, because of viruses and corruption.
I remember having corrupted registries, vague GDI errors, things I
didn't know how to fix. I remember people having problems with Windows,
coming to me for help because I did "know computers", but still being
stuck.

Windows is easy when it works, but when it stuffed up, it was just as
difficult.

On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>
>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>
>>>> For me, its
>>>> - fortune
>>>> - cowsay
>>>> - xpenguins
>>>> - fvwm(3)
>>>> - oneko
>>>> - emacs
>>>> - mc
>>>> - zsh
>>>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>>>> - PCManFM
>>>> - star
>>>> - urxvt
>>>> - xpat2
>>>> - xlock
>>>> - links
>>>> - most
>>>> - lftp
>>>> - lzip
>>>> - xclip
>>>> - screen
>>>> - lrzsz
>>>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>>>> - nasm
>>>> - locate
>>>> - dar
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>>
>>> git obviously
>>> krita
>>> aseprite
>>> screen
>>> rxvt-unicode
>>> cool-retro-term
>>> audacious
>>> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
>>> imagemagick
>>> picom
>>> vim
>>> n30f
>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>>> screen
>>> less
>>> rofi
>>> bucklespring (optional)
>>> mc (optional)
>>>
>>> aptitude (if on debian based)
>>>
>>>
>>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>>> compile for me under debian
>>
>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>
>
> Do they work together?

Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
its hilarious!

On 10/07/2024 10:25, Borax Man wrote:
> On 2024-07-09, Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> wrote:
>> On 7/8/24 10:10 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>>> moving to Linux..
>>
>>
>> That is bullshit. You think it is easy to get Windows to do ANYTHING?
>> That was never true, not even before ximian, and it is still not true.
>>
>
> I agree, Windows was quite difficult too. Back in the Windows 95/98
> days I had to reinstall a few times, because of viruses and corruption.
> I remember having corrupted registries, vague GDI errors, things I
> didn't know how to fix. I remember people having problems with Windows,
> coming to me for help because I did "know computers", but still being
> stuck.
>
> Windows is easy when it works, but when it stuffed up, it was just as
> difficult.

Windows had two advantages
- it came pre installed and the shop knew how to reinstall it
- many more people knew how to fix its current problems

It needed them because right from when I switched over in Win98 it was a
lot less stable, and quirky and virus prone.

But all these comparisons with linux are fairly pointless. People who
run Windows do so for other reasons.

--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Sir Roger Scruton

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 09:31 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>>
>>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>>
>>>>> For me, its
>>>>> - fortune
>>>>> - cowsay
>>>>> - xpenguins
>>>>> - fvwm(3)
>>>>> - oneko
>>>>> - emacs
>>>>> - mc
>>>>> - zsh
>>>>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>>>>> - PCManFM
>>>>> - star
>>>>> - urxvt
>>>>> - xpat2
>>>>> - xlock
>>>>> - links
>>>>> - most
>>>>> - lftp
>>>>> - lzip
>>>>> - xclip
>>>>> - screen
>>>>> - lrzsz
>>>>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>>>>> - nasm
>>>>> - locate
>>>>> - dar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>>>
>>>> git obviously
>>>> krita
>>>> aseprite
>>>> screen
>>>> rxvt-unicode
>>>> cool-retro-term
>>>> audacious
>>>> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
>>>> imagemagick
>>>> picom
>>>> vim
>>>> n30f
>>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>>>> screen
>>>> less
>>>> rofi
>>>> bucklespring (optional)
>>>> mc (optional)
>>>>
>>>> aptitude (if on debian based)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>>>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>>>> compile for me under debian
>>>
>>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>>
>>
>> Do they work together?
>
> Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
> its hilarious!

Oh, IG I'll stick to XSS then. Do you run them directly from
/usr/lib/xscreensaver? (or libexec)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 09:44 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On 09/07/2024 10:42, Popping Mad wrote:
>> On 7/8/24 10:10 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>>> moving to Linux..
>>
>>
>> That is bullshit. You think it is easy to get Windows to do ANYTHING?
>> That was never true, not even before ximian, and it is still not true.
>>
> The only reason Windows is popular is because it comes pre-installed on
> computers, and many 3rd party apps will only run on it.

And the whole snowball effect of "everyone uses it so everyone knows how
to deal with its issues" thing.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote at 08:35 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-09, candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:18 this Monday (GMT):
>>> On 9 Jul 2024 09:11:16 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ffmpeg
>>>>>
>>>>> The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there's a format or codec it
>>>>> doesn't handle, it's because that format or codec simply isn't worth
>>>>> using.
>>>>
>>>> Indeed, although it's unfortunate that the ways to do some seemingly
>>>> easy things like joining two video files together can require a very
>>>> complicated set of command-line options.
>>>
>>> Because some file formats (e.g. MPEG-4) do not work if you simply
>>> concatenate files.
>>>
>>> If you want a container that can be (more) easily split apart and joined,
>>> and can even start playing before it has completely downloaded, try .ts
>>> (“transport stream”) format.
>>
>>
>> I've never heard of that, but it sounds interesting! Is it a more raw
>> format like .wav?
>
> It's another MPEG container. I think one use of this is DVB (so,
> "digital television").
>
> Just like there is a different MPEG container used in DVD-Video.

Oh, cool! I didn't know that.

> My question here would be how flexible it is regarding what can be in
> the container. From what I remember of DVD-Video, these containers
> aren't that limited, you just need to stick to some criteria if you want
> compatibility with a specific kind of player (say, DVD-Video, where IIRC
> the video stream has to be encoded using MPEG-2, and should have one of
> a few frame sizes, likewise subtitles probably need to be in the bitmap
> format, even if MPEG can carry other subtitle formats (I think DVB also
> defines a textual format for subtitles?)).

Wait, subtitles were saved as bitmap images?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 02:03 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 00:36:32 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:23 this Monday (GMT):
>>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 14:10:05 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
>>>>>
>>>>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>>>>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>>>>
>>>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>>>> moving to Linux..
>>>
>>> Most of that is actually an UNlearning curve, don’t forget. Things that
>>> you expect to have to worry about, that actually you don’t.
>>
>>
>> Right, but that still would be difficult to unlearn.
>
> If you progressed from CP/M and DOS there wasn't that much to unlearn.
> I've nothing against GUIs but I'm usually not far from Konsole, xterm.
> Windows Terminal or whatever else gives me a command line.

Yeah, but most people nowadays use Windows and stuff
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 10/07/2024 14:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 09:44 this Tuesday (GMT):

>> The only reason Windows is popular is because it comes pre-installed on
>> computers, and many 3rd party apps will only run on it.
>
>
> And the whole snowball effect of "everyone uses it so everyone knows how
> to deal with its issues" thing.

Nothing succeeds like success, eh?

--
“A leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
“We did this ourselves.”

― Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On 7/10/24 02:25, Borax Man wrote:

> On 2024-07-09, Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> wrote:
>> On 7/8/24 10:10 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>>> moving to Linux..
>>
>>
>> That is bullshit. You think it is easy to get Windows to do ANYTHING?
>> That was never true, not even before ximian, and it is still not true.
>>
>
> I agree, Windows was quite difficult too. Back in the Windows 95/98
> days I had to reinstall a few times, because of viruses and corruption.
> I remember having corrupted registries, vague GDI errors, things I
> didn't know how to fix. I remember people having problems with Windows,
> coming to me for help because I did "know computers", but still being
> stuck.
>
> Windows is easy when it works, but when it stuffed up, it was just as
> difficult.

I tried DOS/CPM but I learned to write Startup Scripts in
AmigaOS 1.3 -3.9. back when i was enduring middle-age. Before my
Amigacomputer died I started on Linux using Xp along the way. I feel for
you guys that did not start with a friendly OS. Of course I started
with a C=64 and learned to insert formatting commands in PaperClip.

bliss- Dell Precision 7730- PCLOS 2024.07- Linux 6.6.36- Plasma 5.27.11

--
b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com

On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:40:07 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Yeah, but most people nowadays use Windows and stuff

Agreed. My Windows usage tends to be a little different. I really like
WindowsTerminal, particularly how I can open a new tab into the WSL
installation. I was very happy when MS finally got around to multiple
virtual desktops. Most Windows users don't even know what I'm talking
about.

I even see that with out support people. They use FileZilla; I use psftp
from the command line or sftp on Linux. I don't have putty on the Linux
box so I don't know if that would also install psftp.

On 2024-07-10, candycanearter07 wrote:

> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 09:31 this Wednesday (GMT):
>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>>>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>>>
[...]
>>>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
[...]
>>>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
[...]
>>>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>>>
>>> Do they work together?
>>
>> Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
>> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
>> its hilarious!
>
> Oh, IG I'll stick to XSS then. Do you run them directly from
> /usr/lib/xscreensaver? (or libexec)

To lock a system running X11, there's also vlock -n -a (At least in the
standalone utility I have in this distro, I think some other package now
also provides a vlock with less features? Or am I misremembering?)

But with vlock you don't get the fun and interesting part of watching
screensavers.

--
Nuno Silva

On 2024-07-10, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 10/07/2024 14:40, candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote at 09:44 this Tuesday
>> (GMT):
>>
>>> The only reason Windows is popular is because it comes pre-installed on
>>> computers, and many 3rd party apps will only run on it.
>>
>> And the whole snowball effect of "everyone uses it so everyone knows how
>> to deal with its issues" thing.
>
> Nothing succeeds like success, eh?

As I used to say back in the mainframe days:

Everybody uses COBOL because everybody uses COBOL.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 09:31:00 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:

> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
> its hilarious!

I would just leave it on “random” so you never knew which display it would
run on the next activation. Some of them are just mind-blowing.

On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:40:06 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Wait, subtitles were saved as bitmap images?

In DVD-Video, they were called “subpictures”, and had 2 bits per pixel.
That meant a choice of four different colour-table entries.

On 10 Jul 2024 19:12:48 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I was very happy when MS finally got around to multiple
> virtual desktops. Most Windows users don't even know what I'm talking
> about.

Probably because they still don’t work right. On Windows, they require
cooperation from the app in order to work. On *nix systems, they don’t.

On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:40:05 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> And the whole snowball effect of "everyone uses it so everyone knows how
> to deal with its issues" thing.

“Dealing with issues” usually means:

* If it gives trouble, reboot it.
* If it still gives trouble, reinstall.

How many Windows users know anything beyond this?

On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:19:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <v6n1ec$23ef2$1@dont-email.me>:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 09:31:00 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>
>> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they
>> think its hilarious!
>
> I would just leave it on “random” so you never knew which display it
> would run on the next activation. Some of them are just mind-blowing.

I have mine set to "Star Wars", with text input from a script I wrote
to display fortunes:

$ cat myfortune.sh
#!/bin/bash
fortune -c | grep -v "^\%"
echo +++

# - -%<- -

...and turned down the scroll speed a bit.

--
-v ASUS TUF Dash F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile
OS: Linux 5.15.0-113-lowlatency Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 15.9G