On 7/7/24 5:59 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> systemd-haters are like the anti-fluoridationists of the Open Source movement.

That is bullshit. Flouridation is harmless, useful and protcects your
teeth. Systemd is none of those things. And FWIW, it is the Free
Software movement. You don't want to restrict Linux to only opensource.

Artix is quite good, simple and stable.

Unlike Systemd, it just works.

On 7/7/24 5:21 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> Is there anything better than systemd?

Anything

Why not create something?

No need...

https://forum.artixlinux.org/

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:

> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:

> ifconfig

;-)

> ftp

You tried lftp?

> mosh

Can't live without! How could I forget to mention it in my list?

> aptitude (Devuan - I wish the changelog fetcher worked!)

Yip.

--
Trust me, I know what I'm doing...

On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 19:43:03 -0400, Popping Mad wrote:

> That is bullshit. Flouridation is harmless, useful and protcects your
> teeth. Systemd is none of those things. And FWIW, it is the Free
> Software movement. You don't want to restrict Linux to only opensource.

https://opensource.org/about

Certainly you wouldn't want to restrict yourself to Stallman's Free
Software Foundation.

On 7/7/24 14:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 10:10:20 +0042, yeti wrote:
>
>> I'll rip out all systemd using distributions here as soon as I
>> have decided what to use instead.
>
> Is there anything better than systemd? Why not create something?

The proper question is "Is there anything worse that systemd?"

Systemd combines too many functions in one program and when Klaus
Knopper looked at it he did write his own startup. In PCLinuxOS
we still use SysVinit and have few proplems in our Rolling Release
but I am just a user and when I first encounted systemd in
Mageia it was early days and I had lots of problems with it.

bliss

--
b l i s s - S F 4 e v e r at D S L E x t r e m e dot com

Bobbie Sellers <blissInSanFrancisco@mouse-potato.com> writes:

> The proper question is "Is there anything worse that systemd?"

Systemd hopping over to BSD?

The Tragedy of systemd
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo&t=1654s>

--
I do not bite, I just want to play.

On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 19:43:03 -0400, Popping Mad wrote:

> Artix is quite good, simple and stable.

Interesting that all their anti-systemd rants are years out of date.

> Unlike Systemd, it just works.

Did you know that systemd offers better compatibility with old sysvinit
scripts than, say, OpenRC can manage?

On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> ifconfig

iproute2, surely.

> ffmpeg

The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there’s a format or codec it doesn’t
handle, it’s because that format or codec simply isn’t worth using.

On Sun, 7 Jul 2024, Popping Mad wrote:

> On 7/7/24 5:59 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> systemd-haters are like the anti-fluoridationists of the Open Source movement.
>
>
> That is bullshit. Flouridation is harmless, useful and protcects your
> teeth. Systemd is none of those things. And FWIW, it is the Free
> Software movement. You don't want to restrict Linux to only opensource.
>
>
> Artix is quite good, simple and stable.
>
> Unlike Systemd, it just works.
>
>

And Lawrence loses again! =)

On 2024-07-07, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>> part of YOUR Linux install?
>
> Beyond a base install it depends entirely on what I have in mind
> for doing with the computer. But some that I often end up
> installing manually because they're not included in the distro
> base:
>
> Network tools that should be there already, but may need
> installing (GNU inetutils versions):
> ifconfig
> telnet
> ftp
>
> Other network tools:
> links
> tin
> mosh
> nmap
> whois
> dig
>
> Format Conversions:
> ghostscript
> imagemagick
> ffmpeg
>
> Decompressors I always end up needing eventually:
> p7zip or 7z
> unrar
>
> If it's a graphical install (always X11):
> jwm (window manager)
> xzgv (image viewer)
> dillo (web browser)
> xpdf (PDF viewer)
> gv (postscript + pdf viewer)
>
> Other tools:
> tree
> hunspell
> mc
> gcc
> git
> bc
> apt-file (Devuan)
> aptitude (Devuan - I wish the changelog fetcher worked!)
>
> Lots more tools, especially graphical, depend on what I intend to
> do with the computer, eg. Firefox on a PC but not on a RPi Zero.
> I've assumed a few programs that others have mentioned, like wget,
> are in the distro base packages already.
>

I think you can tell when someone switched to Linux, by what programs
they consider required accessories.

On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>
>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>> others wouldn't?
>>
>> For me, its
>> - fortune
>> - cowsay
>> - xpenguins
>> - fvwm(3)
>> - oneko
>> - emacs
>> - mc
>> - zsh
>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>> - PCManFM
>> - star
>> - urxvt
>> - xpat2
>> - xlock
>> - links
>> - most
>> - lftp
>> - lzip
>> - xclip
>> - screen
>> - lrzsz
>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>> - nasm
>> - locate
>> - dar
>
>
> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>
> git obviously
> krita
> aseprite
> screen
> rxvt-unicode
> cool-retro-term
> audacious
> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
> imagemagick
> picom
> vim
> n30f
> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
> screen
> less
> rofi
> bucklespring (optional)
> mc (optional)
>
> aptitude (if on debian based)
>
>
> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
> compile for me under debian

I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.

On 2024-07-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:30:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>> compile for me under debian
>
> xsnow?

Ahh, I forgot to mention xsnow!
There is also xroach.

Oneko draws a cat that follows your mouse pointer.

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:28 this Monday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-07, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 13:30:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>>> compile for me under debian
>>
>> xsnow?
>
> Ahh, I forgot to mention xsnow!
> There is also xroach.
>
> Oneko draws a cat that follows your mouse pointer.

Interesting. I don't like oneko that much bc it makes it hard to see
what I'm trying to look at sometimes, and xroach sounds gross.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>
>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>> others wouldn't?
>>>
>>> For me, its
>>> - fortune
>>> - cowsay
>>> - xpenguins
>>> - fvwm(3)
>>> - oneko
>>> - emacs
>>> - mc
>>> - zsh
>>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>>> - PCManFM
>>> - star
>>> - urxvt
>>> - xpat2
>>> - xlock
>>> - links
>>> - most
>>> - lftp
>>> - lzip
>>> - xclip
>>> - screen
>>> - lrzsz
>>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>>> - nasm
>>> - locate
>>> - dar
>>
>>
>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>
>> git obviously
>> krita
>> aseprite
>> screen
>> rxvt-unicode
>> cool-retro-term
>> audacious
>> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
>> imagemagick
>> picom
>> vim
>> n30f
>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>> screen
>> less
>> rofi
>> bucklespring (optional)
>> mc (optional)
>>
>> aptitude (if on debian based)
>>
>>
>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>> compile for me under debian
>
> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.

Do they work together?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:23 this Monday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-07, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>> part of YOUR Linux install?
>>
>> Beyond a base install it depends entirely on what I have in mind
>> for doing with the computer. But some that I often end up
>> installing manually because they're not included in the distro
>> base:
>>
>> Network tools that should be there already, but may need
>> installing (GNU inetutils versions):
>> ifconfig
>> telnet
>> ftp
>>
>> Other network tools:
>> links
>> tin
>> mosh
>> nmap
>> whois
>> dig
>>
>> Format Conversions:
>> ghostscript
>> imagemagick
>> ffmpeg
>>
>> Decompressors I always end up needing eventually:
>> p7zip or 7z
>> unrar
>>
>> If it's a graphical install (always X11):
>> jwm (window manager)
>> xzgv (image viewer)
>> dillo (web browser)
>> xpdf (PDF viewer)
>> gv (postscript + pdf viewer)
>>
>> Other tools:
>> tree
>> hunspell
>> mc
>> gcc
>> git
>> bc
>> apt-file (Devuan)
>> aptitude (Devuan - I wish the changelog fetcher worked!)
>>
>> Lots more tools, especially graphical, depend on what I intend to
>> do with the computer, eg. Firefox on a PC but not on a RPi Zero.
>> I've assumed a few programs that others have mentioned, like wget,
>> are in the distro base packages already.
>>
>
> I think you can tell when someone switched to Linux, by what programs
> they consider required accessories.

To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>
> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.

Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would choose to
keep Windows at all?
--
Simon

RLU: 222126

Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>
>
> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would choose to
> keep Windows at all?

Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
moving to Linux..
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <...@nz.invalid> [LD]:
LD>> xdotool
LD>
LD> That¢s what the command line is for.

xdotool is a _command-line_ X11 automation tool.

On 2024-07-07, Borax Man wrote:

> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
> others wouldn't?
>
> For me, its
[...]
> - star
[...]
> - lzip

BSD tar. Might be installed as part of libarchive in some systems.

--
Nuno Silva

On 2024-07-08, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 19:43:03 -0400, Popping Mad wrote:
>
>> Artix is quite good, simple and stable.
>
> Interesting that all their anti-systemd rants are years out of date.
>
>> Unlike Systemd, it just works.
>
> Did you know that systemd offers better compatibility with old sysvinit
> scripts than, say, OpenRC can manage?

You're the one who is trying to turn this into an argument over systemd
and trying to portray those who do not like systemd as "haters".

If that's not what you meant, I'm sorry, maybe I misread some post?

This is starting to sound like what some wayland users say on the
Internet as soon as someone dares to say they're using X11, or worse,
when they present situations that cannot be handled using Wayland, and
the response is verbal violence, dismissal and hate.

The world isn't just systemd. If the culture is going to be that one
must use or worship systemd to use a linux-based system, maybe it's
better to check what shall I migrate to :-P

--
Nuno Silva

On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>>
>>
>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would choose to
>> keep Windows at all?
>
>
> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
> moving to Linux..

The learning curve is the installation and adhoc fixes, for the average use the
internet starts with the Google page and their bookmarks.

Having set many people up with KDE and Firefox they really didn't notice any
difference. Except the wallpaper telling them their Windows was not activated.
--
Simon

RLU: 222126

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:51:16 -0000 (UTC), Simon wrote:

> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>
>
> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
> choose to keep Windows at all?

I read 'first' as the first OS a person was exposed to.

On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 18:11:30 +0000, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:51:16 -0000 (UTC), Simon wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>>
>>
>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>
> I read 'first' as the first OS a person was exposed to.

For me, that would be IBM's (mainframe) DOS/VS, at college.

;-)

--
Lew Pitcher
"In Skills We Trust"

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> writes:

> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
> others wouldn't?

Varies but probably less, tmux, zsh and some minimal vi for editor are
the bare minimum. In fact, even back when I had a router with just 8 MB
flash for all storage, those four went in. Well, screen instead of tmux
back then. Uncomfortable to think people make do with awful Busybox.

X server or client stuff is by no means required since some of my
machines are headless. Might be some throwaway virtual machine too for
something or other.

Usually also:

- Emacs if there's more editing or note taking to do and/or I get around
to it as then I'll want to pull my shared Emacs config somehow and
that means some sync setup or at least git.

- These days, bat for a file viewer or vim, same reason, color support
for easier reading of various files in the terminal.

- I usually eventually will need wget and then likely unzip and possibly
some other uncompression tools may follow.

- bup for backups if needed.

In article <lf2oeiF8eu8U1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
(rbowman) wrote:

> I read 'first' as the first OS a person was exposed to.

Um ... RSTS/E, then BSD 4.1.

John