On 2024-07-08, Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 18:11:30 +0000, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:51:16 -0000 (UTC), Simon wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>>
>> I read 'first' as the first OS a person was exposed to.
>
> For me, that would be IBM's (mainframe) DOS/VS, at college.

Our school ran MTS on a 360/67.

> ;-)

Back at you, good buddy.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | the first society that wouldn't
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | save itself because it wasn't
/ \ if you read it the right way. | cost-effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 18:29:56 -0000 (UTC), Lew Pitcher wrote:

> For me, that would be IBM's (mainframe) DOS/VS, at college.
>
> ;-)
>

That was a latecomer. For me it was DOS/360 or whatever a System 360/30
was running in '65. I never got closer than turning in the deck of cards
and getting the greenbar printout.

yeti <yeti@tilde.institute> wrote:
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:
>
>> ftp
>
> You tried lftp?

I've used that before for complex recursive tasks using (S)FTP,
though the simpler clients usually do all I need. At the other
extreme ncftpget and ncftpput or their Busybox equivalents can
be very useful too for using one-line commands. Then there's
CurlFtpFS, though it doesn't use the FTP protocol very efficiently
at all (multiple connections just to grab one file). It also needs
a patch to work with newer libcurl versions or it chokes on certain
filename characters. Or there's a "CurlFtpFS-NG" fork.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> ifconfig
>
> iproute2, surely.

I can do all I want with ifconfig, and in spite of what some people
claim the GNU inetutils version is still maintained so there's no
reason to switch.

>> ffmpeg
>
> The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there's a format or codec it doesn't
> handle, it's because that format or codec simply isn't worth using.

Indeed, although it's unfortunate that the ways to do some
seemingly easy things like joining two video files together can
require a very complicated set of command-line options.

--
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#_ < |\| |< _#

On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 16:49:43 +0200, Fritz Wuehler wrote:

> xdotool is a _command-line_ X11 automation tool.

We call a command-line automation tool a “shell”.

On 9 Jul 2024 09:11:16 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>>> ffmpeg
>>
>> The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there's a format or codec it
>> doesn't handle, it's because that format or codec simply isn't worth
>> using.
>
> Indeed, although it's unfortunate that the ways to do some seemingly
> easy things like joining two video files together can require a very
> complicated set of command-line options.

Because some file formats (e.g. MPEG-4) do not work if you simply
concatenate files.

If you want a container that can be (more) easily split apart and joined,
and can even start playing before it has completely downloaded, try .ts
(“transport stream”) format.

On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 23:56:48 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

> - I usually eventually will need wget and then likely unzip and possibly
> some other uncompression tools may follow.

unar seems to work well for decompressing several different archive
formats in one program.

On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 16:29:24 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

> You're the one who is trying to turn this into an argument over systemd
> and trying to portray those who do not like systemd as "haters".

Was I, indeed? Go to the Artix site, and the first thing you see is a
bunch of links to outdated anti-systemd rants. The primary raison d’être
of this particular distro seems to be hatred of systemd.

On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 10:10:20 +0042, yeti wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 07:14:14 +0042, yeti wrote:
>>
>>> mawk
>>>
>>> I like "-We" and dislike GAWKisms.
>>
>> perl >> awk (any awk)
>
> I have AWK in OpenWrt and NetBSD default installs. Perl not. So I
> benefit more from keeping my AWK muscles intact.

I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
everything awk does, just as concisely, and a lot more besides.

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 14:10:05 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
>>
>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>
> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
> moving to Linux..

Most of that is actually an UNlearning curve, don’t forget. Things that
you expect to have to worry about, that actually you don’t.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 10:10:20 +0042, yeti wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 07:14:14 +0042, yeti wrote:
>>>
>>>> mawk
>>>>
>>>> I like "-We" and dislike GAWKisms.
>>>
>>> perl >> awk (any awk)
>>
>> I have AWK in OpenWrt and NetBSD default installs. Perl not. So I
>> benefit more from keeping my AWK muscles intact.
>
> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
> everything awk does,

Like being present in OpenWrt and BSD's default install?

> just as concisely, and a lot more besides.

Amen.

Just for the giggles:

93% of Paint Splatters are Valid Perl Programs
Colin McMillen and Tim Toady
twitter.com/mcmillen & famicol.in/sigbovik
<https://www.mcmillen.dev/sigbovik/2019.pdf>

--
I do not bite, I just want to play.

Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 17:10 this Monday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>> Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
>>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>>>
>>>
>>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would choose to
>>> keep Windows at all?
>>
>>
>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>> moving to Linux..
>
> The learning curve is the installation and adhoc fixes, for the average use the
> internet starts with the Google page and their bookmarks.

Fair, though gaming and some professional apps cough adobe are still
difficult to get around

> Having set many people up with KDE and Firefox they really didn't notice any
> difference. Except the wallpaper telling them their Windows was not activated.

Good news, there's a program to recreate that! (activate-linux)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:23 this Monday (GMT):
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 14:10:05 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
>>>
>>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>>
>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>> moving to Linux..
>
> Most of that is actually an UNlearning curve, don’t forget. Things that
> you expect to have to worry about, that actually you don’t.

Right, but that still would be difficult to unlearn.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:18 this Monday (GMT):
> On 9 Jul 2024 09:11:16 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>>> ffmpeg
>>>
>>> The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there's a format or codec it
>>> doesn't handle, it's because that format or codec simply isn't worth
>>> using.
>>
>> Indeed, although it's unfortunate that the ways to do some seemingly
>> easy things like joining two video files together can require a very
>> complicated set of command-line options.
>
> Because some file formats (e.g. MPEG-4) do not work if you simply
> concatenate files.
>
> If you want a container that can be (more) easily split apart and joined,
> and can even start playing before it has completely downloaded, try .ts
> (“transport stream”) format.

I've never heard of that, but it sounds interesting! Is it a more raw
format like .wav?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Anssi Saari <anssi.saari@usenet.mail.kapsi.fi> wrote at 20:56 this Monday (GMT):
> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> writes:
>
>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>> others wouldn't?
>
> Varies but probably less, tmux, zsh and some minimal vi for editor are
> the bare minimum. In fact, even back when I had a router with just 8 MB
> flash for all storage, those four went in. Well, screen instead of tmux
> back then. Uncomfortable to think people make do with awful Busybox.
>
> X server or client stuff is by no means required since some of my
> machines are headless. Might be some throwaway virtual machine too for
> something or other.
>
> Usually also:
>
> - Emacs if there's more editing or note taking to do and/or I get around
> to it as then I'll want to pull my shared Emacs config somehow and
> that means some sync setup or at least git.

:(

> - These days, bat for a file viewer or vim, same reason, color support
> for easier reading of various files in the terminal.

It's always nice to have. exa is another one I like (ls replacement).

> - I usually eventually will need wget and then likely unzip and possibly
> some other uncompression tools may follow.
>
> - bup for backups if needed.

Bup seems very useful..
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:19 this Monday (GMT):
> On Mon, 08 Jul 2024 23:56:48 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:
>
>> - I usually eventually will need wget and then likely unzip and possibly
>> some other uncompression tools may follow.
>
> unar seems to work well for decompressing several different archive
> formats in one program.

7z is another good "swiss army knife" decompression tool:

DESCRIPTION
7-Zip is a file archiver supporting 7z (that implements LZMA compres‐
sion algorithm featuring very high compression ratio), LZMA2, XZ, ZIP,
Zip64, CAB, RAR (if the non-free p7zip-rar package is installed), ARJ,
GZIP, BZIP2, TAR, CPIO, RPM, ISO, most filesystem images and DEB for‐
mats. Compression ratio in the new 7z format is 30-50% better than ra‐
tio in ZIP format.

(source: 7z man page)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 18:11 this Monday (GMT):
> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 13:51:16 -0000 (UTC), Simon wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>> To be fair, having Linux as your first OS would be very rare.
>>
>>
>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>
> I read 'first' as the first OS a person was exposed to.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Most home and school computers would probably
be MacOS or Windows.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Fritz Wuehler <fritz@spamexpire-202407.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> wrote at 14:49 this Monday (GMT):
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <...@nz.invalid> [LD]:
> LD>> xdotool
> LD>
> LD> That¢s what the command line is for.
>
> xdotool is a _command-line_ X11 automation tool.
>

It's also very useful for some macro keybindings, or if a program
doesn't support --geometry. Also, marking a program as "always on
bottom"
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 23:22:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
> everything awk does, just as concisely, and a lot more besides.

That's what Larry Wall says... Some of the stranger syntax of Perl is
courtesy of awk, sed, and so forth.

On Tue, 9 Jul 2024 00:36:32 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:23 this Monday (GMT):
>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2024 14:10:05 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> Simon <SimonJ@eu.invalid> wrote at 13:51 this Monday (GMT):
>>>>
>>>> Why would you think that? Having the choice and the ability who would
>>>> choose to keep Windows at all?
>>>
>>> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
>>> moving to Linux..
>>
>> Most of that is actually an UNlearning curve, don’t forget. Things that
>> you expect to have to worry about, that actually you don’t.
>
>
> Right, but that still would be difficult to unlearn.

If you progressed from CP/M and DOS there wasn't that much to unlearn.
I've nothing against GUIs but I'm usually not far from Konsole, xterm.
Windows Terminal or whatever else gives me a command line.

On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:42:40 +0042, yeti wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
>> everything awk does,
>
> Like being present in OpenWrt and BSD's default install?

That’s why this thread is about stuff you want to make sure is present,
not relying on the distro defaults.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 00:42:40 +0042, yeti wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>>
>>> I never bothered to expend the brain cells to learn awk. perl does
>>> everything awk does,
>>
>> Like being present in OpenWrt and BSD's default install?
>
> That’s why this thread is about stuff you want to make sure is present,
> not relying on the distro defaults.

I mentioned to *install* MAWK because of -We and then it was YOU who
turned that into a "PERL is better" discussion.

--
Trust me, I know what I'm doing...

On 2024-07-09, candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 23:18 this Monday (GMT):
>> On 9 Jul 2024 09:11:16 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 8 Jul 2024 09:18:34 +1000, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ffmpeg
>>>>
>>>> The multimedia sonic screwdriver. If there's a format or codec it
>>>> doesn't handle, it's because that format or codec simply isn't worth
>>>> using.
>>>
>>> Indeed, although it's unfortunate that the ways to do some seemingly
>>> easy things like joining two video files together can require a very
>>> complicated set of command-line options.
>>
>> Because some file formats (e.g. MPEG-4) do not work if you simply
>> concatenate files.
>>
>> If you want a container that can be (more) easily split apart and joined,
>> and can even start playing before it has completely downloaded, try .ts
>> (“transport stream”) format.
>
>
> I've never heard of that, but it sounds interesting! Is it a more raw
> format like .wav?

It's another MPEG container. I think one use of this is DVB (so,
"digital television").

Just like there is a different MPEG container used in DVD-Video.

My question here would be how flexible it is regarding what can be in
the container. From what I remember of DVD-Video, these containers
aren't that limited, you just need to stick to some criteria if you want
compatibility with a specific kind of player (say, DVD-Video, where IIRC
the video stream has to be encoded using MPEG-2, and should have one of
a few frame sizes, likewise subtitles probably need to be in the bitmap
format, even if MPEG can carry other subtitle formats (I think DVB also
defines a textual format for subtitles?)).

--
Nuno Silva

On 07/07/2024 22:35, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Jul 2024 21:21:23 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 07 Jul 2024 10:10:20 +0042, yeti wrote:
>>
>>> I'll rip out all systemd using distributions here as soon as I have
>>> decided what to use instead.
>>
>> Is there anything better than systemd? Why not create something?
>
> Someday when I'm really bored I'll have to figure out why some people hate
> systemd.
Because it has been released way before all the bugs, inconsistencies
and documentation have been sorted out.

As well as all the third party apps invoked by it having to change their
startup scripts and methodologies.

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

On 7/8/24 10:10 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Well, if you grew up with it, there would be a huge learning curve
> moving to Linux..

That is bullshit. You think it is easy to get Windows to do ANYTHING?
That was never true, not even before ximian, and it is still not true.