On 12/26/24 1:53 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:44:57 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Wow! Talk about a visionary! He took the logical step from everyone
>> owning a car, to everyone owning a plane! I would like to own a flying
>> car. Even a helicopter I would be content with! Imagine... then I could
>> build a _real_ fortress of solitude, far, far away from any public
>> roads!
>
> Now there's a scary thought. When I was learning to fly a fixed wing the
> person teaching me, an ag pilot with several thousand hours in the air,
> was trying to tech himself to fly a helicopter. He was as frustrated as I
> was. The motivation was to allow precise insecticide application rather
> than the fly low and open the valves technique.

About 25 years ago, a smart guy I knew decided he wanted
to fly helicopters. He described it as somewhat like trying
to balance on a big rubber ball. About the third or fourth
lesson he CRASHED the thing while trying to hover just ten
feet off the ground. All survived OK, but that was the
END of the lessons :-)

> It was interesting but I realized there were practical problems. With only
> VFR you were completely dependent on the weather. With IFR you had a
> little more flexibility but you weren't going to keep schedules. The other
> problem is after you fly to Oshkosh you find yourself at a small airfield
> 10 miles from town.

Today, it IS possible to build a 'stable' helicopter or,
even easier, a stable multi-motor drone. Saw a larger
drone - intended for ag work - that was about 4x6 feet
in size - auto-hover a few feet above the ground ON A
WINDY DAY - and barely vary position or altitude by
an inch or two. You could walk up and kinda shove the
thing and it'd spring right back to where it was
supposed to be.

As such, replacing full mechanical with fly-by-wire,
you could get such machines to do what they figure
you WANT them to do rather than respond to a millimeter
of random joystick input. Military - probably still
want 'em to be "touchy" - but for 'consumer' needs ...

I think the F-16 was the first performance aircraft
where humans didn't ACTUALLY fly them - it was all
"smart" fly-by-wire. Humans could not cope with the
changing aerodynamics at all possible speeds and
attitudes and such, so the computer did the real
work, 'translating' the pilots inputs. It worked.
TODAY it'd be relatively CHEAP and maybe even better.

> The light aircraft industry has had its dreams, particularly after WWII
> with returning servicemen but they never worked out. The FAA came up with
> a sport pilot license which only required a drivers license and not a
> medical certificate and shorter training. It had limitations but the major
> problem was a 1320 maximum takeoff weight. Most existing planes to make
> that limit are Piper Cubs, Taylorcraft, Ercoupes, and other antiques,
> often taildraggers for added excitement. Cessna 150s, Piper Tomahawks, and
> other common training planes are too heavy. There are some new planes that
> meet the requirements. Cessna tried with the 162, a cut down 152, but at
> $150,000 it didn't sell.

I've flown Cubs ... right down to hand-cranking
the propeller. They are slow, but there's a nice
'floaty' aspect to them, and quite stable, once
in the air. Fat wing intended for low speeds. The
one I few a few times only had like 30 horsepower,
the originals were like 20hp.

The C150/152 is great 'general purpose' craft. Again
very stable but feels more 'airplane' than the Cub
and is notably faster. Flaps and engine power down
you COULD fly them at a bit under 40knots though
it was wobbly. Extra plus, they're intended for
students - which means robust construction. As such
I never saw the 'weight' as a negative - more as
an insurance policy.

Never liked newer Pipers - can't see a damned thing
with that wing under you. Also knew a guy who worked
on one of their lines ... and NOPE, did NOT want a
plane he helped bang together :-)

A number of corps are fronting 'air-taxi' now using
what are essentially large drones. One or two don't
even have a pilot, all automated. Would NOT wanna
get on one will less than six thrusters though ...
that way one can die and the rest can still compensate.

As for George Jetsons' flying around in 'cars' ...
I can foresee disasters aplenty even WITH nominal
automatic route control. Humans don't even
navigate 2-D very well ......

Oh well, glory days ... I think the 2nd OPEC embargo
was the end - fuel prices went through the roof and
you couldn't always get the CORRECT fuel (a stuck
valve in a small plane engine is NOT encouraging).
Just couldn't afford to keep flying. BUT, still
KNOW how, just in case .....

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:41:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.

Thucydides got an Amazon best seller out of it. If the bible can be
believed the tribal god was big on genocide when somebody else was living
on the land he gave you. That hasn't changed a bit.

A lot of the petty squabbles were eclipsed by the Thirty Years war but it
took a Bismarck to put together I don't know how many pissant
principalities, free cities, and other local turfs after the Holy Roman
Empire fell apart.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 22:41:34 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> About 25 years ago, a smart guy I knew decided he wanted to fly
> helicopters. He described it as somewhat like trying to balance on a
> big rubber ball. About the third or fourth lesson he CRASHED the
> thing while trying to hover just ten feet off the ground. All
> survived OK, but that was the END of the lessons

That was John's technique. I don't know if he ever had a teacher or if he
got his hands on a heli and was trying to figure it out. afaik he never
crashed but he would try to hover until he got disgusted.

That's a popular technique.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Rhinebeck_Aerodrome

It wasn't part of the airshow but the Bleriot did fly. It used wing
warping for control. I asked him how he learned to fly it. 'You start out
taxiing, and get faster and faster..' That didn't work for one of my
neighbors. He built an ultralight and I would see him taxiing up and down
the pasture. I don't think it was planned but one day he got off the
ground. He probably panicked and tried the u-turn maneuver that seldom
works well. He could have crossed the river and landed on the ranch on the
other side.

> Today, it IS possible to build a 'stable' helicopter or, even easier,
> a stable multi-motor drone. Saw a larger drone - intended for ag work
> - that was about 4x6 feet in size - auto-hover a few feet above the
> ground ON A WINDY DAY - and barely vary position or altitude by an
> inch or two. You could walk up and kinda shove the thing and it'd
> spring right back to where it was supposed to be.

I've got a couple of cheap drones. One is joystick controlled like an R.C
plane with no intelligence. It's a handful. The other is a Tello. DJI
doesn't make them any more but it's a lot more sophisticated. It uses a
down-facing camera to maintain position and is controlled by a phone app.

https://www.thedronegirl.com/2018/05/08/dji-tello-drone-review/

"However, the drone does not succeed in windy conditions — not even in
mildly windy or breezy conditions. I made the mistake of flying Tello on
the roof of my San Francisco apartment — do not try this!! It almost blew
away!"

That's the understatement of the year.

> I think the F-16 was the first performance aircraft where humans
> didn't ACTUALLY fly them - it was all "smart" fly-by-wire. Humans
> could not cope with the changing aerodynamics at all possible speeds
> and attitudes and such, so the computer did the real work,
> 'translating' the pilots inputs. It worked.
> TODAY it'd be relatively CHEAP and maybe even better.

I remember reading about it in the IEEE journal. A plane that's so
unstable a human can't fly it didn't sound like a good idea. They also had
a write up on the TOW missile. That didn't sound like a great idea either.
They never did work out a fire-and-forget version.

> The C150/152 is great 'general purpose' craft. Again very stable but
> feels more 'airplane' than the Cub and is notably faster. Flaps and
> engine power down you COULD fly them at a bit under 40knots though it
> was wobbly. Extra plus, they're intended for students - which means
> robust construction. As such I never saw the 'weight' as a negative -
> more as an insurance policy.

I flew a 150 I was thinking about buying. The owner had decorated it with
a Snoopy motif. Later I flew a 152 once. I learned on a Lark, Rockwell's
version of a 172. There were two of them, both elderly. One added a twist
to the final -- pumping up the brakes if you expected to make a graceful
landing.

When I went to Ft. Wayne the rentals were Tomahawks. The FBO had died and
his wife was trying to keep the business together so they weren't in great
shape either. The gullwing door latch broke on one night flight. There was
no danger but it got a bit noisy. Then there was the cross country to
Kalamazoo. Nothing like having to get the FBO to jump start your plane.

To top it off the instructor was a young woman building hours towards her
commercial ticket. Odd choice of careers since as far as I could tell she
was scared of flying. Or maybe it was a more cautious approach than an ag
pilot. His advice if you were going down in the woods was to visualize the
tree tops as a landing strip. Try not to kill yourself climbing down from
the tree. That wasn't theoretical since he'd parked his Thrush in some
strange places. He'd inherited the business from his father, who was also
a ag pilot. Living up to the statistics, he was killed in a motorcycle
crash not a plane wreck.
>
> Never liked newer Pipers - can't see a damned thing with that wing
> under you. Also knew a guy who worked on one of their lines ... and
> NOPE, did NOT want a plane he helped bang together

The company I worked for bought the old Thurston factory in Maine,
conveniently located on an airstrip for our amusement. One day there was
the classic low wing trying to land on a high wing. Luckily both survived.

> As for George Jetsons' flying around in 'cars' ...
> I can foresee disasters aplenty even WITH nominal automatic route
> control. Humans don't even navigate 2-D very well ......

Too many variable. My boss at that company learned to fly, bought a plane,
and shortened his commute time to meetings in the Boston area. One day he
headed off to a meeting in Kennebunk, about 16 miles. Then the fog rolled
in from the ocean. He found his way back, landed the plane, kissed the
ground, and put the plane up for sale. A Lincoln Town Car wasn't so bad
after all for commuting.

On 12/26/24 11:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:41:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
>> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.
>
> Thucydides got an Amazon best seller out of it. If the bible can be
> believed the tribal god was big on genocide when somebody else was living
> on the land he gave you. That hasn't changed a bit.

Nope. Seems to be a 'human nature' thing ... hardwired
will to dominance.

We can, sometimes, alter the environment within HOW
that trait is expressed - but it doesn't go away.
After a time of peace/unity general dissatisfaction
seems to grow and eventually overwhelm those engineered
methods.

> A lot of the petty squabbles were eclipsed by the Thirty Years war but it
> took a Bismarck to put together I don't know how many pissant
> principalities, free cities, and other local turfs after the Holy Roman
> Empire fell apart.

Things fell apart almost as quickly as they were put
together. Alliances, sentiments, needs, changed very
quickly. Kinda 'Game Of Thrones' but without the
dragons.

Post-Rome, Europe was a MESS. Only Charlemagne kinda
glued it together at all - but then almost only by
the sword. Oddly, I think the Viking invasions did
more to stabilize things - sort of the 'alien invasion'
that brought petty gripes and ambitions more onto the
same wavelength.

DaVinci's Italy was a constant war between the many
city states for a long time. The Popes, while
theoretically the ultimate authorities, instead
seemed to just profit financially and politically
from all the chaos and let it go on. Then a
de Medici became Pope ........

Greece ... amazing they had TIME to repel the
Persians - too busy fighting each other.

"I have stuff. You have stuff. If I take YOUR stuff
then I'll have twice as much stuff !" - simple logic.

On 2024-12-27, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

> "I have stuff. You have stuff. If I take YOUR stuff
> then I'll have twice as much stuff !" - simple logic.

"If you have less stuff, then there's more for me."

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 2024-12-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:41:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
>> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.
>
> Thucydides got an Amazon best seller out of it. If the bible can be
> believed the tribal god was big on genocide when somebody else was
> living on the land he gave you. That hasn't changed a bit.

I once set myself a project of reading the Bible end to end, rather
than depending on other people's summaries. I bogged down around
I Kings - all that violence was getting too depressing.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:44:57 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Wow! Talk about a visionary! He took the logical step from everyone
>> owning a car, to everyone owning a plane! I would like to own a flying
>> car. Even a helicopter I would be content with! Imagine... then I could
>> build a _real_ fortress of solitude, far, far away from any public
>> roads!
>
> Now there's a scary thought. When I was learning to fly a fixed wing the
> person teaching me, an ag pilot with several thousand hours in the air,
> was trying to tech himself to fly a helicopter. He was as frustrated as I
> was. The motivation was to allow precise insecticide application rather
> than the fly low and open the valves technique.
>
> It was interesting but I realized there were practical problems. With only
> VFR you were completely dependent on the weather. With IFR you had a
> little more flexibility but you weren't going to keep schedules. The other
> problem is after you fly to Oshkosh you find yourself at a small airfield
> 10 miles from town.
>
> The light aircraft industry has had its dreams, particularly after WWII
> with returning servicemen but they never worked out. The FAA came up with
> a sport pilot license which only required a drivers license and not a
> medical certificate and shorter training. It had limitations but the major
> problem was a 1320 maximum takeoff weight. Most existing planes to make
> that limit are Piper Cubs, Taylorcraft, Ercoupes, and other antiques,
> often taildraggers for added excitement. Cessna 150s, Piper Tomahawks, and
> other common training planes are too heavy. There are some new planes that
> meet the requirements. Cessna tried with the 162, a cut down 152, but at
> $150,000 it didn't sell.
>

Don't you worry... I*m sure Trump is on it! =) If not, maybe drone
technology and established mass markets will grow the market for sub 1320
weight vehicles, and lower the price as well!

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:28:17 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Hmm, but it seems to small! I would feel awfully cramped trying to
>> handle a 4 kg pike in that little thing. On the other hand, from a size
>> and weight point of view, it is good. I imagine that a 2 seat canoe
>> would be too heavy to carry around by one person unless it's some hyper
>> modern model made out of some magical material.
>
> My father bought a 12' aluminum boat, a common size, with a 7 1/2 HP
> Evinrude outboard. Memories of horsing it onto the car top racks
> discouraged me from getting too big. The alternative is a trailer but
> that's another complication. I can inflate the kayak, throw it in the
> water, and paddle away while people are still waiting in line at the ramp.

This is the truth! It is also this scenario that prevents me from getting
a regular boat.

> The problem with the kayak is there aren't that many interesting lakes and
> they tend to be infested with power boats and JetSkis. The rivers are nice
> but I can't paddle upstream effectively locally.

May all the power boats be damned! I especially like the ones who see that
I'm sitting in a tiny fishing boat, and then they speed by at extra high
speed to see if they can sink my boat with the waves.

I do think though, that the police took the boat. That would almost be
justice. ;) They took my boat too, but I got it back! Actually it was my
wifes fathers boat, but taking random peoples property is regular
procedure in eastern europe.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:51:28 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Nah... that's just propaganda from the vegetable farmers! On the german
>> side of the world, the best spread is Schmalz! A super invention!
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmaltz
>
> I've seen that in the Jewish section of supermarket aisles. I think the

You should buy it! Add some crispy small pieces of bacon to it, and
possibly some fried onion and you have a very good spread!

> Jews have switched to Crisco since it;s pareve. What you do see more
> frequently is lard (manteca) used in Hispanic cooking.
>
> My mother would make suet pudding for Christmas. I guess she believed in
> truth in advertising since a similar desert is called 'plum pudding'
> despite there being no plums involved. A guest had two helpings and asked
> for the recipe of the delicious stuff. When she started with 'You take 2
> pounds of suet..' he excused himself. Sound of retching could be heard
> from the bathroom.
>
> Looking back a plateful swimming in hard sauce was a little rich. It was
> washed down with several rounds of Angel Tips, crème de cacao with heavy
> cream floated on top. Good thing Christmas only came once a year.

Wow! What did your doctor say? My fathers doctor told him to cut down on
meat, and he responded that that will never happen. ;)

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/26/24 2:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:20:53 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> You are talking about external countries and parties attacking, and the
>>> decentralized libertarian community not being able to defend itself?
>>
>> Or the next town over the hill. iirc there are quite a few castles in
>> Europe that weren't built to be scenic attractions. What has changed? It's
>> not a European trait either; modern Africa anyone?
>
> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.

Nonsense... in my scenario we would just crush our enemies with the deep
spiritual love of Jesus!

Or we'd get nukes! ;)

Or maybe sleeper agents with some biological warfare concoction!

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

>
> A number of corps are fronting 'air-taxi' now using
> what are essentially large drones. One or two don't
> even have a pilot, all automated. Would NOT wanna
> get on one will less than six thrusters though ...
> that way one can die and the rest can still compensate.
>
> As for George Jetsons' flying around in 'cars' ...
> I can foresee disasters aplenty even WITH nominal
> automatic route control. Humans don't even
> navigate 2-D very well ......

I think scaled up drones is as close as we'll get to flying cars within the next
20 years or so. I'd definitely be up for it! Having one myself would be great. I
would then need to no road to my fortress of solitude, but could just fly in and
out of there! =)

> Oh well, glory days ... I think the 2nd OPEC embargo
> was the end - fuel prices went through the roof and
> you couldn't always get the CORRECT fuel (a stuck
> valve in a small plane engine is NOT encouraging).
> Just couldn't afford to keep flying. BUT, still
> KNOW how, just in case .....
>

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/26/24 11:57 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:41:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
>>> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.
>>
>> Thucydides got an Amazon best seller out of it. If the bible can be
>> believed the tribal god was big on genocide when somebody else was living
>> on the land he gave you. That hasn't changed a bit.
>
>
> Nope. Seems to be a 'human nature' thing ... hardwired
> will to dominance.

But human nature can be changed! I'm not saying easily, and I'm not saying
quickly, but small steps here and there are definitely possible. This is
why the theory exists that mankind is not yet ready for socialism... or
libertarianism! ;)

> Things fell apart almost as quickly as they were put
> together. Alliances, sentiments, needs, changed very
> quickly. Kinda 'Game Of Thrones' but without the
> dragons.
>
> Post-Rome, Europe was a MESS. Only Charlemagne kinda
> glued it together at all - but then almost only by
> the sword. Oddly, I think the Viking invasions did
> more to stabilize things - sort of the 'alien invasion'
> that brought petty gripes and ambitions more onto the
> same wavelength.
>
> DaVinci's Italy was a constant war between the many
> city states for a long time. The Popes, while
> theoretically the ultimate authorities, instead
> seemed to just profit financially and politically
> from all the chaos and let it go on. Then a
> de Medici became Pope ........

This is good! A city state does a lot less harm than a modern country.
That is why I like decentralization! With many city states, the
competition for business will also be harder, which results in lower taxes
as well!

Unless we're talking socialist city states, or small monarchies. Those are
not so fun. =(

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:41:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
>>> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.
>>
>> Thucydides got an Amazon best seller out of it. If the bible can be
>> believed the tribal god was big on genocide when somebody else was
>> living on the land he gave you. That hasn't changed a bit.
>
> I once set myself a project of reading the Bible end to end, rather
> than depending on other people's summaries. I bogged down around
> I Kings - all that violence was getting too depressing.

I read the NT, never got around to the OT.

On 23/12/2024 21:13, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> Not that we didn't get a
> fairly close look while our poor little 172, all loaded up on a warm
> summer day, struggled for altitude off that strip, which is at 5500
> feet. We had to circle to get high enough to get through the pass
> toward Bozeman.

LOL! Yep. At least you didn't get into a downdraught that exceeded your
ROC....
--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On 23/12/2024 21:14, D wrote:
> I have a vague memory of reading somewhere that remains of paganism were
> alive until the 1700s, but cannot find anything through a quick google.
> My friendly neighbourhood AI insist on official death in the 12:th century.

This is a subject of heated debate as modern Wiccan/Pagans like to feel
they have an unbroken tradition.

But of course people probably learned to keep their mouths shit and rub
themselves with witches ointment in private...

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

On 23/12/2024 21:25, rbowman wrote:
> I read an article this morning about Bitcoin EFTs that went right over my
> head. It reminded me of the brilliant scheme of buying derivatives based
> on insurance payouts for tranches of mortgages likely to default.
>
I got quite deeply involved in stocks shares and funds at one time.

- Anyone who tells you how to make a fortune begs the question of why
they didn't make one themselves and not write a book.
- telling punters to buy a stock is the last refuge of someone who
bought early and just wants to make another percent before it nosedives.
-at least 50% of funds do worse than the stock market index. If you dont
know which ones, buy a tracker.
- physical gold is generally at least a way to keep place with
inflation. Apparently a loaf of bread today costs the same in gold as it
did in Roman times...
- If you dont want to spend your days with your nose glued to the market
data, find a fund manager who does, and let him take his 1%.
- If there is anything more rigged than FX I have yet to find it.
- Futures and options for 'domestic' investors are rigged so the bank
always wins. Unless you do straight forward futures trading at the raw
level, dont touch it.
- aim for about 20% ROI and be happy when you get ten.

> I'll stay far away, thank you.

--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
> Still, I hope flying never gains mass appeal. Can you imagine the
> sky filled with the kind of idiots you see on the road?

That was just my thought as well. Given how /well/ many folks drive
(and that is in an almost "Flat Land" [1] environment) I can only fear
what they might do when they have the ability to deliberatly move in
the third dimension via their own power system. While there /might/ be
fewer collisions between the cars (due to the addition of 3D movement)
I rather expect the amount of colliding with fixed objects (buildings,
poles, mountain sides, etc.) to markedly go up. And then there's the
"fall from the sky" problem when the driver falls asleep at the wheel
and the "fall from the sky" problem when mechanical/fuel issues occur.

I.e., today, not paying attention to one's fuel level results in an
inconvienent call to AAA (or whomever one's favority 'roadside
assistance' is) when the engine sputters to a stop due to an empty
tank. In a flying car, running out of fuel entails an emergency need
for an unpowered landing (or a crash if there is no suitable landing
area).

And much like how most drivers never bother to practice simple
techniques like "skid recovery" during slippery conditions, most will
also never practice things such as "unpowered landing" with their
flying car, and be totally unprepared to do so when an "unpowered"
situation arises.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Land

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:44:57 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Wow! Talk about a visionary! He took the logical step from
>> everyone owning a car, to everyone owning a plane! I would like to
>> own a flying car. Even a helicopter I would be content with!
>> Imagine... then I could build a _real_ fortress of solitude, far,
>> far away from any public roads!
>
> Now there's a scary thought. When I was learning to fly a fixed wing
> the person teaching me, an ag pilot with several thousand hours in
> the air, was trying to tech himself to fly a helicopter. He was as
> frustrated as I was. The motivation was to allow precise insecticide
> application rather than the fly low and open the valves technique.

Never flown one (other than in video games, which don't count) but just
thinking about the physics involved leads one to the conclusion that it
is similar a way to learning to recover from a skid in a car (only
likely 10x or 100x for a helo). You can do all the "book reading" you
want, but until you practice enough times for real for the proper
reaction to become instinctual you will not be able to "recover" or
"fly".

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 12:31:55 +0100, D wrote:

> But human nature can be changed! I'm not saying easily, and I'm not
> saying quickly, but small steps here and there are definitely possible.
> This is why the theory exists that mankind is not yet ready for
> socialism... or libertarianism!

After millennia the sheep breeding program has been less than successful.
There have been entire religions spawned to convince the sheep a better
world awaits them and they should be nice and well behaved in the
meantime.

I think socialists and libertarians are both dreamers. Sometimes they even
recognize their affinity:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism

I'm not opposed to the dream. I like interesting fantasies. After all my
work Linux box and one of my personal Linux boxes show

$ hostname
kropotkin

Then morning comes and I wake up.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>> It was interesting but I realized there were practical problems. With only
>> VFR you were completely dependent on the weather. With IFR you had a
>> little more flexibility but you weren't going to keep schedules. The other
>> problem is after you fly to Oshkosh you find yourself at a small airfield
>> 10 miles from town.

I do not get it.

Why should having access to the instruments prevent you from using your eyes?

On 23/12/2024 21:25, rbowman wrote:
>> I read an article this morning about Bitcoin EFTs that went right over my
>> head. It reminded me of the brilliant scheme of buying derivatives based
>> on insurance payouts for tranches of mortgages likely to default.
On 2024-12-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> I got quite deeply involved in stocks shares and funds at one time.
>
> - Anyone who tells you how to make a fortune begs the question of why
> they didn't make one themselves and not write a book.
> - telling punters to buy a stock is the last refuge of someone who
> bought early and just wants to make another percent before it nosedives.
> -at least 50% of funds do worse than the stock market index. If you dont
> know which ones, buy a tracker.
> - physical gold is generally at least a way to keep place with
> inflation. Apparently a loaf of bread today costs the same in gold as it
> did in Roman times...
> - If you dont want to spend your days with your nose glued to the market
> data, find a fund manager who does, and let him take his 1%.
> - If there is anything more rigged than FX I have yet to find it.
> - Futures and options for 'domestic' investors are rigged so the bank
> always wins. Unless you do straight forward futures trading at the raw
> level, dont touch it.
> - aim for about 20% ROI and be happy when you get ten.

This matches exactly my experience. 100% agree with all of these. Figured
these out more or less in the order listed.

Around the time I turned 50, I realized I was going to need to boost my
retirement savings. I thought Ï work in internet technology, I know
which are the good and growing companies in my field, I will buy some of
that.

Then 2000 happened, and my Cisco, Osicom, Juniper etc stocks all took a
real nosedive.

So I figured that I needed to diversify. Bought some Ford Motor, United
Airlines, Robinson/May dept stores, ... only to see every single one
descend into near bankruptcy.

So I headed for the SP500 funds, and have done quite well with that.
There have been some dips, but always recovered spectacularly. My one
ïndividual" stock is Berkshire (Buffett). But that is really more of a
very well-managed, diversified investment fund.

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 09:25:53 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-27, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 21:41:29 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
>>> The "town over the hill" was always attacking.
>>
>> Thucydides got an Amazon best seller out of it. If the bible can be
>> believed the tribal god was big on genocide when somebody else was
>> living on the land he gave you. That hasn't changed a bit.
>
> I once set myself a project of reading the Bible end to end, rather than
> depending on other people's summaries. I bogged down around I Kings -
> all that violence was getting too depressing.

I don't know if I ever made it that far. Ecclesiasticus (not Ecclesiastes)
isn't too bad; it reads like Hesiod or the Havamal. The first time I made
it through the NT was 'Good News for Modern Man'. It was more or less in
English and about all I had to read at the time.

As for the rest I'm surprised it preserved. Joseph's brothers sell him as
a slave. He wheedles his way to second in command in Egypt and sets up a
scheme to store all the confiscated grain in the good years. He also
invites all his friends and relatives to share in the good times.

Bad times come and he sells the grain back to the starving farmers, taking
all their land. The Egyptians get pissed off so Joe and his tribe call
down some plagues, steal everything that isn't nailed down, and beat feet.

Fine, upstanding story...

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 12:32:46 +0100, D wrote:

> I read the NT, never got around to the OT.

Nietzsche said something about putting gloves on before reading the NT;
the OT needs a full hazmat suit. Most religions come up with a mythology
that isn't quite as appalling.

On 2024-12-27, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> On 23/12/2024 21:13, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Not that we didn't get a
>> fairly close look while our poor little 172, all loaded up on a warm
>> summer day, struggled for altitude off that strip, which is at 5500
>> feet. We had to circle to get high enough to get through the pass
>> toward Bozeman.
>
> LOL! Yep. At least you didn't get into a downdraught that exceeded your
> ROC....

No, that happened when we ran into some weather on the way back.
Fortunately we were able to turn around and get out of there.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Fri, 27 Dec 2024 12:17:54 +0100, D wrote:

> May all the power boats be damned! I especially like the ones who see
> that I'm sitting in a tiny fishing boat, and then they speed by at extra
> high speed to see if they can sink my boat with the waves.

My father and I were fishing in a rented rowboat when a speedboat nearly
swamped us. My father stood up and yelled 'Cocksucker!'. I didn't know he
knew words like that :)

Boat rentals were common on the area lakes. They were homemade wooden
productions with flat bottoms, square ends, and a bait well under the
seats. They weren't beautiful but they were stable. When we got the
aluminum V-hull it was a lot less stable.

In the '50s the designs were adapted to use plywood instead of planks.
After storing the boats over the winter in the spring they discovered
porcupines love the resin used to bond the layers.

I have a special fondness for porcupines. While I was on a multiday hike a
porcupine ate the front brake lines and heater hose on my pickup. It was
raining when I got back to the trailhead so I threw my gear in and took
off. I quickly discovered a pickup without front brakes isn't the best
thing to use to come off a mountain. I could splice the heater hose and
refill the radiator from a creek but the brakes had to wait until I was
back to civilization.