-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 12/16/24 4:04 PM, Joel wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>>>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>>>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>>>>
>>>>> How is yours materially better...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>>>>
>>>> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>>> from.
>>>
>>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>>
>>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>>
>> Sounds easy to travel with.
>
>Yes, it is far easier than to lug a desktop tower, along with its
>separate display, separate keyboard, & separate mouse.

Not the point. Alan is trying to conflate laptop "expandability" with
a desktop machine.

>>>>>> [The Mac mini] runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>>>>
>>>>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>>>>
>>>> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
>>>> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
>>>> whole thing.
>>>
>>> "I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.
>>>
>>> You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
>>> "quirky".
>>
>> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.
>
>I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
>and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
>OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
>be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.

Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.

>>>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>>>
>>>> Both.
>>> And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>>>
>>> Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>>> have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>>> to end up with.
>>
>> But it'd run macOS, so ...
>
>It ships with MacOS, but that's not the only OS choice for l33t braggarts.

Oh sure, buy an Apple device to run something else, that makes sense.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".

It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
"pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
was an early model of that kind of processor.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> [JWC's desktop PC is] limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>>> from.
>>>
>>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>>
>>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>>
>> Sounds easy to travel with.
>
>We were discussing expandability, sunshine.
>
>In the context of portability, I could take the computer and leave the
>PCIe expansion chassis behind.

OK, but it doesn't really make your laptop special.

>>>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>>>
>>>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>>>
>>>> Both.
>>> And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>>>
>>> Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>>> have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>>> to end up with.
>>
>> But it'd run macOS, so ...
>Which does literally everything you say you do on Linux.

Any modern computer does. But Linux does it with elegance. Winblows
is a behemoth, and macOS is quirky.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>>>>> that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>
>>>>
>>>> Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
>>>> two.
>>> Which is better in what measurable way?
>>
>> It's elegant.
>Why? What makes it more "elegant"?

It's just a piece of the computer, once installed. No wire.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> I kept my system sleek as much as one can with Winblows, I'm not a
>>>> dummy, I know what the fuck I'm doing with a computer. I know what
>>>> the updates were bloating onto it, and I know I'd rather use Linux,
>>>> where it's sane.
>>> So why spend $200 on Windows in the first place?
>>
>> It's useful to have Winblows on a freshly built, state-of-the-art
>> system - Linux lags a little in supporting fresh hardware.
>I'm calling bullshit on that excuse.
>
>Show me that Linux didn't support your system's components in any
>respect when you bought it.

I tried booting a USB of Linux with it, early on, it didn't even load
the installer properly.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
>>>> bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?
>>>
>>> Because you're trying to convince us your design skills are so "elite",
>>> doofus.
>>>
>>> In the space of just 30 months you:
>>>
>>> had to add a video card because you didn't realize that you might end up
>>> with a 4K monitor (and you couldn't make a 4K monitor work on a GPU that
>>> is supposed to support one);
>>>
>>> had to abandon a $200 investment in Windows, because you either couldn't
>>> spec a system that would keep up with upgrades to Windows or you
>>> couldn't figure out why your system was slowing down.
>>
>> How is any of that true? The 4K monitor worked with the Intel video,
>> just not well enough, adding the video card is a minor concern, I
>> always intended that if there were a need for one I'd be able to do
>> so. The investment in Windows is nothing to me, I got a lot of use
>> out of it in 2 1/2 years, until Linux better supported my fresh
>> hardware. Big fucking deal.
>
>You bought Windows, because (presumably) you thought it was the better
>choice...
>
>...but then you spec'ed hardware that wasn't able to run it for more
>than 2.5 years.

"Able to", it was, acceptably *to me*, not.

>And if "investment in Windows is nothing to [you]", then why do you make
>such a big deal out of paying less for your system than an equivalent
>Mac (which you didn't; a Mac Mini would have done what you're doing and
>cost you even less).

Would the mini have 32 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD, pray tell, genius?

>And if a monitor isn't working "well enough" and you have to spend
>additional dollars to correct it, then you didn't do a very good job of
>designing your system in the first place.

It worked as a monitor, Win11 and Intel's video failed to handle it
well.

>You spent additional time on installing the new GPU.
>
>You spent additional time on installing and configuring Linux.
>
>Those are costs over and above what you'd have paid if you'd made your
>design choices better in the first place.

And I'd rather spend that time than deal with Apple BS.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 12/16/24 5:53 PM, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 12/16/24 4:04 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>>>>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>>>>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is yours materially better...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>>>
>>> Sounds easy to travel with.
>>
>> Yes, it is far easier than to lug a desktop tower, along with its
>> separate display, separate keyboard, & separate mouse.
>
>
> Not the point. Alan is trying to conflate laptop "expandability" with
> a desktop machine.

Well, Alan is correct.

You're just complaining that the expandability wasn't in precisely the
form that you prefer, but that doesn't change the fact that his laptop
example is in fact, quite expandable.

>>>>>>> [The Mac mini] runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
>>>>> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
>>>>> whole thing.
>>>>
>>>> "I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
>>>> "quirky".
>>>
>>> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.
>>
>> I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
>> and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
>> OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
>> be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.
>
>
> Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.

Windows Internet Explorer was an App, not an OS. And IE7 was such a
'great' product that MS lost their marketshare lead to Firefox in 2009.

>>>>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>>>>
>>>>> Both.
>>>> And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>>>>
>>>> Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>>>> have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>>>> to end up with.
>>>
>>> But it'd run macOS, so ...
>>
>> It ships with MacOS, but that's not the only OS choice for l33t braggarts.
>
>
> Oh sure, buy an Apple device to run something else, that makes sense.

Its noting on the hardware, plus details like the default OS not being
used is simply bigger bragging rights for the l33t geeks & wannabees.

-hh

On 12/16/24 6:07 PM, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>> The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".
>
>
> It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
> "pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
> was an early model of that kind of processor.
>

Oh, so the 2010 box had an i5 too?

Well, back in that era, the i5 was a newly designed/designated CPU, but
it wasn't "higher end" because the i7 and Xeons were already out by then
too, and Intel's corporate roadmap was that Xeons was for workstations
and the i7 targeted the business and high-end consumer markets, which
left the i5 for mainstream consumer and i3 for entry-level consumers.

-hh

On 12/16/24 6:24 PM, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
>>>>> bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?
>>>>
>>>> Because you're trying to convince us your design skills are so "elite",
>>>> doofus.
>>>>
>>>> In the space of just 30 months you:
>>>>
>>>> had to add a video card because you didn't realize that you might end up
>>>> with a 4K monitor (and you couldn't make a 4K monitor work on a GPU that
>>>> is supposed to support one);
>>>>
>>>> had to abandon a $200 investment in Windows, because you either couldn't
>>>> spec a system that would keep up with upgrades to Windows or you
>>>> couldn't figure out why your system was slowing down.
>>>
>>> How is any of that true? The 4K monitor worked with the Intel video,
>>> just not well enough, adding the video card is a minor concern, I
>>> always intended that if there were a need for one I'd be able to do
>>> so. The investment in Windows is nothing to me, I got a lot of use
>>> out of it in 2 1/2 years, until Linux better supported my fresh
>>> hardware. Big fucking deal.
>>
>> You bought Windows, because (presumably) you thought it was the better
>> choice...
>>
>> ...but then you spec'ed hardware that wasn't able to run it for more
>> than 2.5 years.
>
> "Able to", it was, acceptably *to me*, not.

Big talk from a guy who thinks that an i5 CPU is "high end"! /s

>> And if "investment in Windows is nothing to [you]", then why do you make
>> such a big deal out of paying less for your system than an equivalent
>> Mac (which you didn't; a Mac Mini would have done what you're doing and
>> cost you even less).
>
> Would the mini have 32 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD, pray tell, genius?

But you've already admitted that you have headroom that you're not using
with 32GB/1TB, despite how x86 is known to be RAM inefficient.

So if one really is researching & buying based on needs instead of lame
l33t posturing, then you'd know that the M architectural fit for your
needs is more like 8GB/512GB. Doing so puts the MSRP at $999: $150 less
than what you spent instead of $650 more for stuff you don't need.

>> And if a monitor isn't working "well enough" and you have to spend
>> additional dollars to correct it, then you didn't do a very good job of
>> designing your system in the first place.
>
> It worked as a monitor, Win11 and Intel's video failed to handle it
> well.

By 2020, there was really no excuse to not buy a system that didn't
offer 'good' 4K support.

>> You spent additional time on installing the new GPU.
>>
>> You spent additional time on installing and configuring Linux.
>>
>> Those are costs over and above what you'd have paid if you'd made your
>> design choices better in the first place.
>
> And I'd rather spend that time than deal with Apple BS.

Because installing Linux once on new HW is a lot of work...check! <g>

-hh

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:

>>>> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.
>>>
>>> I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
>>> and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
>>> OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
>>> be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.
>>
>> Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.
>
>Windows Internet Explorer was an App, not an OS. And IE7 was such a
>'great' product that MS lost their marketshare lead to Firefox in 2009.

I'm talking about what is now called File Explorer, explorer.exe, not
IE the Web browser.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

-hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>On 12/16/24 6:07 PM, Joel wrote:
>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>
>>>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>>>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>>>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>>>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>>>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>>> The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".
>>
>> It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
>> "pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
>> was an early model of that kind of processor.
>
>Oh, so the 2010 box had an i5 too?
>
>Well, back in that era, the i5 was a newly designed/designated CPU, but
>it wasn't "higher end" because the i7 and Xeons were already out by then
>too, and Intel's corporate roadmap was that Xeons was for workstations
>and the i7 targeted the business and high-end consumer markets, which
>left the i5 for mainstream consumer and i3 for entry-level consumers.

There were still a lot of two-core CPUs being sold at the time, mine
was four-core.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-16 15:07, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>> The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".
>
>
> It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
> "pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
> was an early model of that kind of processor.
The i5 was NEVER "fairly high-end". The i5 was and is a mid-range
processor.

Why can you not admit the obvious?

On 2024-12-16 14:53, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 12/16/24 4:04 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>>>>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>>>>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How is yours materially better...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>>>
>>> Sounds easy to travel with.
>>
>> Yes, it is far easier than to lug a desktop tower, along with its
>> separate display, separate keyboard, & separate mouse.
>
>
> Not the point. Alan is trying to conflate laptop "expandability" with
> a desktop machine.

I'm pointing out that your claims of lack of expandability in machines
such as the Mac Mini are specious.

It may not be the ordinary FORM in which you are used to seeing it, but
Macs are expandable.

>
>
>>>>>>> [The Mac mini] runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
>>>>> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
>>>>> whole thing.
>>>>
>>>> "I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.
>>>>
>>>> You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
>>>> "quirky".
>>>
>>> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.
>>
>> I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
>> and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
>> OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
>> be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.
>
>
> Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.

IN

WHAT

SPECIFIC

WAY?

On 2024-12-16 15:18, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> [JWC's desktop PC is] limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>>>> from.
>>>>
>>>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>>>
>>> Sounds easy to travel with.
>>
>> We were discussing expandability, sunshine.
>>
>> In the context of portability, I could take the computer and leave the
>> PCIe expansion chassis behind.
>
>
> OK, but it doesn't really make your laptop special.

I wasn't saying it to claim my laptop was special, snowflake.

I'm claiming that your "expandability" argument is wrong.

>
>
>>>>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>>>>
>>>>> Both.
>>>> And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>>>>
>>>> Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>>>> have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>>>> to end up with.
>>>
>>> But it'd run macOS, so ...
>> Which does literally everything you say you do on Linux.
>
>
> Any modern computer does. But Linux does it with elegance. Winblows
> is a behemoth, and macOS is quirky.
And yet you cannot articulate what supposedly makes it "quirky".

What is a "quirk" of macOS?

Give a SINGLE example.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>>>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>>>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>>>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>>>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>>> The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".
>>
>> It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
>> "pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
>> was an early model of that kind of processor.
>The i5 was NEVER "fairly high-end". The i5 was and is a mid-range
>processor.
>
>Why can you not admit the obvious?

No, the CPU I had in my old computer was higher end, at the time I
assembled it. There were still a lot of more primitive CPUs being
sold, at the time.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-12-16 14:53, Joel wrote:
>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>> On 12/16/24 4:04 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.
>>>
>>> I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
>>> and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
>>> OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
>>> be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.
>>
>> Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.
>
>IN
>
>WHAT
>
>SPECIFIC
>
>WAY?

Context menus, etc.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-16 15:18, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>>>>>> that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>
>>>>>
>>>>> Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
>>>>> two.
>>>> Which is better in what measurable way?
>>>
>>> It's elegant.
>> Why? What makes it more "elegant"?
>
>
> It's just a piece of the computer, once installed. No wire.
So by that argument, an all-in-one is more "elegant" than having an
external monitor?

This looks pretty "elegant" to me:

<https://www.owc.com/solutions/ministack-stx>

Or this:

<https://satechi.net/landing/new-stand-and-hub-m4-mac-mini>

Remember: Thunderbolt literally IS PCIe...

On 2024-12-16 15:20, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I kept my system sleek as much as one can with Winblows, I'm not a
>>>>> dummy, I know what the fuck I'm doing with a computer. I know what
>>>>> the updates were bloating onto it, and I know I'd rather use Linux,
>>>>> where it's sane.
>>>> So why spend $200 on Windows in the first place?
>>>
>>> It's useful to have Winblows on a freshly built, state-of-the-art
>>> system - Linux lags a little in supporting fresh hardware.
>> I'm calling bullshit on that excuse.
>>
>> Show me that Linux didn't support your system's components in any
>> respect when you bought it.
>
>
> I tried booting a USB of Linux with it, early on, it didn't even load
> the installer properly.
>

You failing to do something is NOT proof it can't be done.

On 2024-12-16 15:24, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
>>>>> bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?
>>>>
>>>> Because you're trying to convince us your design skills are so "elite",
>>>> doofus.
>>>>
>>>> In the space of just 30 months you:
>>>>
>>>> had to add a video card because you didn't realize that you might end up
>>>> with a 4K monitor (and you couldn't make a 4K monitor work on a GPU that
>>>> is supposed to support one);
>>>>
>>>> had to abandon a $200 investment in Windows, because you either couldn't
>>>> spec a system that would keep up with upgrades to Windows or you
>>>> couldn't figure out why your system was slowing down.
>>>
>>> How is any of that true? The 4K monitor worked with the Intel video,
>>> just not well enough, adding the video card is a minor concern, I
>>> always intended that if there were a need for one I'd be able to do
>>> so. The investment in Windows is nothing to me, I got a lot of use
>>> out of it in 2 1/2 years, until Linux better supported my fresh
>>> hardware. Big fucking deal.
>>
>> You bought Windows, because (presumably) you thought it was the better
>> choice...
>>
>> ...but then you spec'ed hardware that wasn't able to run it for more
>> than 2.5 years.
>
>
> "Able to", it was, acceptably *to me*, not.

So you chose to design a machine that wouldn't acceptably be able to run
your OS of choice for even 3 years?

>
>
>> And if "investment in Windows is nothing to [you]", then why do you make
>> such a big deal out of paying less for your system than an equivalent
>> Mac (which you didn't; a Mac Mini would have done what you're doing and
>> cost you even less).
>
>
> Would the mini have 32 GB RAM and 1 TB SSD, pray tell, genius?

16GB of RAM only, but up to a 2TB SSD, yes.

>
>
>> And if a monitor isn't working "well enough" and you have to spend
>> additional dollars to correct it, then you didn't do a very good job of
>> designing your system in the first place.
>
>
> It worked as a monitor, Win11 and Intel's video failed to handle it
> well.

Riiiiiiiiiiight.

>
>
>> You spent additional time on installing the new GPU.
>>
>> You spent additional time on installing and configuring Linux.
>>
>> Those are costs over and above what you'd have paid if you'd made your
>> design choices better in the first place.
>
>
> And I'd rather spend that time than deal with Apple BS.
And yet when asked to describe what makes it "BS", you always punk out.

On 2024-12-16 16:51, -hh wrote:
>>
>> Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.
>
> Windows Internet Explorer was an App, not an OS.  And IE7 was such a
> 'great' product that MS lost their marketshare lead to Firefox in 2009.

To be fair, I'm certain he meant "File Explorer"...

....which of course Microsoft make ambiguous because of their propensity
for using the same word for different purposes, over and over and over.

On 2024-12-17 07:39, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 12/16/24 6:07 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>>>>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>>>>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>>>>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>>>>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>>>> The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".
>>>
>>> It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
>>> "pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
>>> was an early model of that kind of processor.
>>
>> Oh, so the 2010 box had an i5 too?
>>
>> Well, back in that era, the i5 was a newly designed/designated CPU, but
>> it wasn't "higher end" because the i7 and Xeons were already out by then
>> too, and Intel's corporate roadmap was that Xeons was for workstations
>> and the i7 targeted the business and high-end consumer markets, which
>> left the i5 for mainstream consumer and i3 for entry-level consumers.
>
>
> There were still a lot of two-core CPUs being sold at the time, mine
> was four-core.
And there were many far faster 4+ core CPUs offered by Intel.

On 2024-12-17 10:23, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-12-16 14:53, Joel wrote:
>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/16/24 4:04 PM, Joel wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.
>>>>
>>>> I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
>>>> and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
>>>> OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
>>>> be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.
>>>
>>> Win7's Windows Explorer was far better.
>>
>> IN
>>
>> WHAT
>>
>> SPECIFIC
>>
>> WAY?
>
>
> Context menus, etc.
We've debunked that one.

The Finder had context menus.

Try again.

On 2024-12-17 10:20, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
>>>>> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
>>>>> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
>>>>> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
>>>>> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
>>>> The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".
>>>
>>> It wasn't intended to be in the 2021 device, it was intended to be
>>> "pretty good". The i5 in the 2010 device was higher end, because it
>>> was an early model of that kind of processor.
>> The i5 was NEVER "fairly high-end". The i5 was and is a mid-range
>> processor.
>>
>> Why can you not admit the obvious?
>
>
> No, the CPU I had in my old computer was higher end, at the time I
> assembled it. There were still a lot of more primitive CPUs being
> sold, at the time.
No. It was not "higher end".

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>>>> On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>>>>>>> that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
>>>>>> two.
>>>>> Which is better in what measurable way?
>>>>
>>>> It's elegant.
>>> Why? What makes it more "elegant"?
>>
>> It's just a piece of the computer, once installed. No wire.
>So by that argument, an all-in-one is more "elegant" than having an
>external monitor?

No.

>This looks pretty "elegant" to me:
>
><https://www.owc.com/solutions/ministack-stx>
>
>Or this:
>
><https://satechi.net/landing/new-stand-and-hub-m4-mac-mini>
>
>Remember: Thunderbolt literally IS PCIe...

OK, but why not just have a real case, a real motherboard? Why the
quirks?

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> So why spend $200 on Windows in the first place [instead of starting with Linux]?
>>>>
>>>> It's useful to have Winblows on a freshly built, state-of-the-art
>>>> system - Linux lags a little in supporting fresh hardware.
>>> I'm calling bullshit on that excuse.
>>>
>>> Show me that Linux didn't support your system's components in any
>>> respect when you bought it.
>>
>> I tried booting a USB of Linux with it, early on, it didn't even load
>> the installer properly.
>
>You failing to do something is NOT proof it can't be done.

I didn't fail to do anything, the installer didn't boot, shut the fuck
up, nerd.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.