On 2024-12-15 12:48, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 12/15/24 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
>>> On 2024-12-15 02:56, Joel wrote:
>>>> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> People who value things differently than you do are not automatically
>>>>> stupid.
>>>>>
>>>>> I realize that concept is a little too advanced for your adolescent
>>>>> thinking, but it's still true.
>>>>
>>>> It's not adolescent thinking, it's simple math.  And I'm not calling
>>>> you "stupid", I'm pointing out that you can always do far better than
>>>> Apple, on value, if you build [a computer] yourself.
>>>
>>> And if you don't value you your own time.
>>>
>>> Yu're conflating "value" with "monetary cost" alone.
>>
>> Ah, its the lame old classic bit of "my labor is always frrrrreee!".
>>
>> Well, as I've said before: prove that your labor is worth so little to
>> you by coming over and mowing my lawn.
>>
>> Of course, at this time of year, their task will be raking up leaves ..
>> or if it snows later, to get out there in the cold and shovel: I'm
>> flexible for what menial labor task they'll prove themselves with <g>.
>
>
> Labor and the time it takes is just part of getting a good PC, you
> have to buy it as parts, you have to design it. You could pay a
> fortune for some other person to do the work for you, but it's not
> worth it, you'd be better off in that case with a decent prefab
> machine. But what do you do with IKEA furniture? Do you pay someone
> to assemble it, or do you just bite the bullet and take the time? It's
> not so different with a PC, it's something you'll get a lot of use out
> of. I've already had mine for 2 1/2 years, and it's like new. Worth
> every minute I put in, assembling it.
>

But you don't pay "a fortune", Joel.

You pay a small premium.

And your computer is "like new"...

....after you've added a video card to address a failing in your research
when designing your system...

....and replacing the OS with Linux because your system was so poorly
spec'ed it couldn't keep running Windows well.

On 2024-12-15 14:01, Joel wrote:
> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>> On 12/15/24 3:48 PM, Joel wrote:
>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>> On 12/15/24 12:24 PM, Alan wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yu're conflating "value" with "monetary cost" alone.
>>>>
>>>> Ah, its the lame old classic bit of "my labor is always frrrrreee!".
>>>>
>>>> Well, as I've said before: prove that your labor is worth so little to
>>>> you by coming over and mowing my lawn.
>>>>
>>>> Of course, at this time of year, their task will be raking up leaves ..
>>>> or if it snows later, to get out there in the cold and shovel: I'm
>>>> flexible for what menial labor task they'll prove themselves with <g>.
>>>
>>> Labor and the time it takes is just part of getting a good PC, you
>>> have to buy it as parts, you have to design it. You could pay a
>>> fortune for some other person to do the work for you, but it's not
>>> worth it, you'd be better off in that case with a decent prefab
>>> machine.
>>
>> When one buys a prebuilt, those design decision costs are amortized
>> across many thousands of units instead of just your one white box.
>>
>> As I said weeks ago, a colleague used to run his own small business
>> assembling white boxes - - he shut it down years ago because the OEMs
>> became price-competitive and there was no margin left for him, even as
>> he was typically building a dozen identical units at a shot.
>
>
> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.

How is yours materially better...

....I mean apart from "bragging rights"?

>
>
>> Likewise, we've also seen how a Mac mini stops the living shit out of
>> your i5 DIY, while costing less than the $1150 you've spent to date. So
>> just where is this so-called 'fortune' that people allegedly pay?
>
>
> The Mac mini is OK, I wouldn't say it "stops the living shit out of"
> my machine. It runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.

About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.

>
>
>>> But what do you do with IKEA furniture? Do you pay someone
>>> to assemble it, or do you just bite the bullet and take the time? It's
>>> not so different with a PC, it's something you'll get a lot of use out
>>> of. I've already had mine for 2 1/2 years, and it's like new. Worth
>>> every minute I put in, assembling it.
>>
>> No, its quite different, because you're not assembling from a set of
>> instructions & a single box of parts that Ikea designed: you went to
>> NewEgg/etc and semi-randomly chose stuff that you then *hoped* would all
>> fit together and work: you took on that entire risk onto yourself, and
>> in context, saved essentially zero dollars.
>
>
> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
> nearly as good. That's undeniable.

Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...

....or to brag about how "l337" you are?

>

On 2024-12-16 11:35, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> A Mac mini wouldn't have the specs that I have.
>>
>> Dude... ...you bought an i5 and it turned out to be the wrong one to
>> have bought when you discovered you couldn't make it work with a 4K monitor.
>
>
> How is that even remotely true? I didn't know I'd buy the 4K monitor,
> it was a whimsical purchase when I saw the hot price. The Intel video
> did support it theoretically, it just didn't work as well as the
> NVIDIA card. Big fucking deal! I still got use out of the Intel
> video while I was using the old monitor, and could put off buying a
> video card.

If you couldn't extrapolate in 2020 that your next monitor might be a
4K, then you didn't do ANY homework.

>
>
>> And if we benchmarked your i5 against a 2020 Mini... ...how would it fare?
>
>
> Just fine, I'm sure. Maybe Apple's CPU is slightly faster, but would
> I notice the difference?

Then that still leaves the fact it would have been less expensive than
your system...

....and would have properly supported 4K.

>
>
>>> I needed Win10/11 at first, and enjoyed using them, but I moved on. It
>>> was worth it. I got my use out of it, but it outgrew my hardware, as
>>> M$ crapware tends to do, so I got out, I installed Linux. All is
>>> well.
>> No... ...Windows did NOT outgrow your hardware in 2-3 years...
>>
>> ...unless you bought the wrong hardware to begin with.
>
>
> You really underestimate what M$ does. They have proven that they
> support brand-new, high-end devices, in any real sense, that you can
> boot their crapware on a smaller system doesn't mean it will perform
> adequately, this is why Linux isn't just some oddball alternative,
> it's the real deal.

I do Windows support for a living (because my clients that have Macs
basically never need to see me), and I know what makes Windows slow down.

Hint: it's usually NOT the hardware.

>

On 2024-12-16 11:36, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I'll never use up the 1 TB [NVMe SSD], that's kind of the point. The drive could
>>>>> last many years. You want to have extra storage.
>>>>
>>>> And if you have a desktop, then that storage can just as easily and
>>>> effectively be an external drive.>
>>>
>>> But then you have this dangling external device. I like to have it
>>> inside the case.
>> "dangling"?
>>
>> That's a very odd way to phrase it.
>>
>> Having it inside the case is important if you have a laptop, but given
>> the size of external drives these days, almost completely irrelevant if
>> you have a desktop computer.
>>
>> Does it bother you that your monitor is "dangling"?
>>
>> Or your keyboard?
>>
>> :-)
>
>
> They aren't dangling, they're supposed to be where they are, an
> external storage drive that just sits there plugged in, in constant
> use, is dangling.
Why is that different?

You're USED TO an external monitor and keyboard, but an external drive
is no different.

On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
that perfectly sit under the desktop:

<https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>

<https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> I'm not calling
>>>> you "stupid", I'm pointing out that you can always do far better than
>>>> Apple, on value, if you build yourself.
>>>
>>> And if you don't value you your own time.
>>
>> How much do you value time, that you'd pay Apple's rates?
>
>Hmmmm....
>
>My MacBook Air M3 cost me about $2,000CAD. So let's assume that I could
>buy a Windows/Linux laptop for half as much
>
>Since I'm fairly certain (based on prior experience) that this machine
>will serve me for at least 5 years, my purchase only needs to save me a
>couple of hours a year for it to have been a solid decision on dollars
>alone.
>
>I value my time highly.

Well, since you're a laptop user, I actually more understand going
with a MacBook model, that's where Apple's hardware is actually in
some ways better than a lot of the competition. In recent times,
we've begun to see ARM-based laptops with Win11, that can be replaced
with Linux, which is awesome, but if you prefer macOS, there's nothing
so wrong about buying a MacBook, it's expensive, but it's your money.

>>> You're conflating "value" with "monetary cost" alone.
>>
>> Not really, because it applies to prefab Winblows systems, too, they
>> cheap out on certain parts to keep the prices competitive, that's why
>> building my own was such a great investment, including of time itself.
>
>How does that even address my point?

Because value is a quotient of money spent for material gained - my
Gigabyte motherboard makes my system higher end than virtually any
prefab PC system. Apple, though, is probably equally good, just more
costly.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>> Labor and the time it takes [assembling computer hardware] is just part of getting a good PC, you
>> have to buy it as parts, you have to design it. You could pay a
>> fortune for some other person to do the work for you, but it's not
>> worth it, you'd be better off in that case with a decent prefab
>> machine. But what do you do with IKEA furniture? Do you pay someone
>> to assemble it, or do you just bite the bullet and take the time? It's
>> not so different with a PC, it's something you'll get a lot of use out
>> of. I've already had mine for 2 1/2 years, and it's like new. Worth
>> every minute I put in, assembling it.
>
>But you don't pay "a fortune", Joel.
>
>You pay a small premium.
>
>And your computer is "like new"...
>
>...after you've added a video card to address a failing in your research
>when designing your system...
>
>...and replacing the OS with Linux because your system was so poorly
>spec'ed it couldn't keep running Windows well.

That's ridiculous. It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>On 2024-12-15 14:01, Joel wrote:
>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>
>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>
>How is yours materially better...
>
>...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?

It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
from.

>>> Likewise, we've also seen how a Mac mini stops the living shit out of
>>> your i5 DIY, while costing less than the $1150 you've spent to date. So
>>> just where is this so-called 'fortune' that people allegedly pay?
>>
>> The Mac mini is OK, I wouldn't say it "stops the living shit out of"
>> my machine. It runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>
>About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.

I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
whole thing.

>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>
>Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>
>...or to brag about how "l337" you are?

Both.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> I needed Win10/11 at first, and enjoyed using them, but I moved on. It
>>>> was worth it. I got my use out of it, but it outgrew my hardware, as
>>>> M$ crapware tends to do, so I got out, I installed Linux. All is
>>>> well.
>>> No... ...Windows did NOT outgrow your hardware in 2-3 years...
>>>
>>> ...unless you bought the wrong hardware to begin with.
>>
>> You really underestimate what M$ does. They have proven that they
>> support brand-new, high-end devices, in any real sense, that you can
>> boot their crapware on a smaller system doesn't mean it will perform
>> adequately, this is why Linux isn't just some oddball alternative,
>> it's the real deal.
>
>I do Windows support for a living (because my clients that have Macs
>basically never need to see me), and I know what makes Windows slow down.
>
>Hint: it's usually NOT the hardware.

I kept my system sleek as much as one can with Winblows, I'm not a
dummy, I know what the fuck I'm doing with a computer. I know what
the updates were bloating onto it, and I know I'd rather use Linux,
where it's sane.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>>> I'll never use up the 1 TB [NVMe SSD], that's kind of the point. The drive could
>>>>>> last many years. You want to have extra storage.
>>>>>
>>>>> And if you have a desktop, then that storage can just as easily and
>>>>> effectively be an external drive.>
>>>>
>>>> But then you have this dangling external device. I like to have it
>>>> inside the case.
>>> "dangling"?
>>>
>>> That's a very odd way to phrase it.
>>>
>>> Having it inside the case is important if you have a laptop, but given
>>> the size of external drives these days, almost completely irrelevant if
>>> you have a desktop computer.
>>>
>>> Does it bother you that your monitor is "dangling"?
>>>
>>> Or your keyboard?
>>>
>>> :-)
>>
>> They aren't dangling, they're supposed to be where they are, an
>> external storage drive that just sits there plugged in, in constant
>> use, is dangling.
>Why is that different?
>
>You're USED TO an external monitor and keyboard, but an external drive
>is no different.

How in God's name would a monitor or keyboard not be external?

>On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>
><https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>
><https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>

Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
two.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-16 12:05, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I'm not calling
>>>>> you "stupid", I'm pointing out that you can always do far better than
>>>>> Apple, on value, if you build yourself.
>>>>
>>>> And if you don't value you your own time.
>>>
>>> How much do you value time, that you'd pay Apple's rates?
>>
>> Hmmmm....
>>
>> My MacBook Air M3 cost me about $2,000CAD. So let's assume that I could
>> buy a Windows/Linux laptop for half as much
>>
>> Since I'm fairly certain (based on prior experience) that this machine
>> will serve me for at least 5 years, my purchase only needs to save me a
>> couple of hours a year for it to have been a solid decision on dollars
>> alone.
>>
>> I value my time highly.
>
>
> Well, since you're a laptop user, I actually more understand going
> with a MacBook model, that's where Apple's hardware is actually in
> some ways better than a lot of the competition. In recent times,
> we've begun to see ARM-based laptops with Win11, that can be replaced
> with Linux, which is awesome, but if you prefer macOS, there's nothing
> so wrong about buying a MacBook, it's expensive, but it's your money.
>
>
>>>> You're conflating "value" with "monetary cost" alone.
>>>
>>> Not really, because it applies to prefab Winblows systems, too, they
>>> cheap out on certain parts to keep the prices competitive, that's why
>>> building my own was such a great investment, including of time itself.
>>
>> How does that even address my point?
>
>
> Because value is a quotient of money spent for material gained - my
> Gigabyte motherboard makes my system higher end than virtually any
> prefab PC system. Apple, though, is probably equally good, just more
> costly.
In what MATERIAL way?

What is a metric...

....that actually matters to your use case...

....that makes your "Gigabyte motherboard" "higher end" than a system you
could have just bought?

Remember, you're the one who always concedes that a small difference
actually doesn't matter to you.

On 2024-12-16 12:08, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>> Labor and the time it takes [assembling computer hardware] is just part of getting a good PC, you
>>> have to buy it as parts, you have to design it. You could pay a
>>> fortune for some other person to do the work for you, but it's not
>>> worth it, you'd be better off in that case with a decent prefab
>>> machine. But what do you do with IKEA furniture? Do you pay someone
>>> to assemble it, or do you just bite the bullet and take the time? It's
>>> not so different with a PC, it's something you'll get a lot of use out
>>> of. I've already had mine for 2 1/2 years, and it's like new. Worth
>>> every minute I put in, assembling it.
>>
>> But you don't pay "a fortune", Joel.
>>
>> You pay a small premium.
>>
>> And your computer is "like new"...
>>
>> ...after you've added a video card to address a failing in your research
>> when designing your system...
>>
>> ...and replacing the OS with Linux because your system was so poorly
>> spec'ed it couldn't keep running Windows well.
>
>
> That's ridiculous. It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
> bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?
>

Because you're trying to convince us your design skills are so "elite",
doofus.

In the space of just 30 months you:

had to add a video card because you didn't realize that you might end up
with a 4K monitor (and you couldn't make a 4K monitor work on a GPU that
is supposed to support one);

had to abandon a $200 investment in Windows, because you either couldn't
spec a system that would keep up with upgrades to Windows or you
couldn't figure out why your system was slowing down.

On 2024-12-16 12:16, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>> On 2024-12-15 14:01, Joel wrote:
>>> -hh <recscuba_google@huntzinger.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>
>> How is yours materially better...
>>
>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>
>
> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
> from.

My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.

<https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>

>
>
>>>> Likewise, we've also seen how a Mac mini stops the living shit out of
>>>> your i5 DIY, while costing less than the $1150 you've spent to date. So
>>>> just where is this so-called 'fortune' that people allegedly pay?
>>>
>>> The Mac mini is OK, I wouldn't say it "stops the living shit out of"
>>> my machine. It runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>
>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>
>
> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
> whole thing.

"I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.

You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
"quirky".

>
>
>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>
>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>
>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>
>
> Both.
And that says EVERYTHING about you.

Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
to end up with.

On 2024-12-16 12:22, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I'll never use up the 1 TB [NVMe SSD], that's kind of the point. The drive could
>>>>>>> last many years. You want to have extra storage.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And if you have a desktop, then that storage can just as easily and
>>>>>> effectively be an external drive.>
>>>>>
>>>>> But then you have this dangling external device. I like to have it
>>>>> inside the case.
>>>> "dangling"?
>>>>
>>>> That's a very odd way to phrase it.
>>>>
>>>> Having it inside the case is important if you have a laptop, but given
>>>> the size of external drives these days, almost completely irrelevant if
>>>> you have a desktop computer.
>>>>
>>>> Does it bother you that your monitor is "dangling"?
>>>>
>>>> Or your keyboard?
>>>>
>>>> :-)
>>>
>>> They aren't dangling, they're supposed to be where they are, an
>>> external storage drive that just sits there plugged in, in constant
>>> use, is dangling.
>> Why is that different?
>>
>> You're USED TO an external monitor and keyboard, but an external drive
>> is no different.
>
>
> How in God's name would a monitor or keyboard not be external?

You're kidding.

You are NOT this dumb. No one could possibly be this clueless?

How could a monitor no be internal? Really?

<https://www.apple.com/imac/>

<https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/desktop-computers/scr/desktops/appref=all-in-one-form-factor>

<https://www.hp.com/ca-en/shop/list.aspx?sel=DTP&ctrl=f&fc_form_aio=1>

I could go on, but could you really look any dumber? I don't think so.

As for the keyboard, I was being a tiny bit facetious, but you are
literally reading words I type on the built-in keyboard...

....of my LAPTOP.

>
>
>> On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>> that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>>
>> <https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>>
>> <https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>
>
>
> Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
> two.
Which is better in what measurable way?

On 2024-12-16 12:20, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> I needed Win10/11 at first, and enjoyed using them, but I moved on. It
>>>>> was worth it. I got my use out of it, but it outgrew my hardware, as
>>>>> M$ crapware tends to do, so I got out, I installed Linux. All is
>>>>> well.
>>>> No... ...Windows did NOT outgrow your hardware in 2-3 years...
>>>>
>>>> ...unless you bought the wrong hardware to begin with.
>>>
>>> You really underestimate what M$ does. They have proven that they
>>> support brand-new, high-end devices, in any real sense, that you can
>>> boot their crapware on a smaller system doesn't mean it will perform
>>> adequately, this is why Linux isn't just some oddball alternative,
>>> it's the real deal.
>>
>> I do Windows support for a living (because my clients that have Macs
>> basically never need to see me), and I know what makes Windows slow down.
>>
>> Hint: it's usually NOT the hardware.
>
>
> I kept my system sleek as much as one can with Winblows, I'm not a
> dummy, I know what the fuck I'm doing with a computer. I know what
> the updates were bloating onto it, and I know I'd rather use Linux,
> where it's sane.
So why spend $200 on Windows in the first place?

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> You're conflating "value" with "monetary cost" alone.
>>>>
>>>> Not really, because it applies to prefab Winblows systems, too, they
>>>> cheap out on certain parts to keep the prices competitive, that's why
>>>> building my own was such a great investment, including of time itself.
>>>
>>> How does that even address my point?
>>
>> Because value is a quotient of money spent for material gained - my
>> Gigabyte motherboard makes my system higher end than virtually any
>> prefab PC system. Apple, though, is probably equally good, just more
>> costly.
>In what MATERIAL way?
>
>What is a metric...
>
>...that actually matters to your use case...
>
>...that makes your "Gigabyte motherboard" "higher end" than a system you
>could have just bought?
>
>Remember, you're the one who always concedes that a small difference
>actually doesn't matter to you.

But durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
this machine could last as long, or even longer.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> Labor and the time it takes [assembling computer hardware] is just part of getting a good PC, you
>>>> have to buy it as parts, you have to design it. You could pay a
>>>> fortune for some other person to do the work for you, but it's not
>>>> worth it, you'd be better off in that case with a decent prefab
>>>> machine. But what do you do with IKEA furniture? Do you pay someone
>>>> to assemble it, or do you just bite the bullet and take the time? It's
>>>> not so different with a PC, it's something you'll get a lot of use out
>>>> of. I've already had mine for 2 1/2 years, and it's like new. Worth
>>>> every minute I put in, assembling it.
>>>
>>> But you don't pay "a fortune", Joel.
>>>
>>> You pay a small premium.
>>>
>>> And your computer is "like new"...
>>>
>>> ...after you've added a video card to address a failing in your research
>>> when designing your system...
>>>
>>> ...and replacing the OS with Linux because your system was so poorly
>>> spec'ed it couldn't keep running Windows well.
>>
>> That's ridiculous. It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
>> bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?
>
>Because you're trying to convince us your design skills are so "elite",
>doofus.
>
>In the space of just 30 months you:
>
>had to add a video card because you didn't realize that you might end up
>with a 4K monitor (and you couldn't make a 4K monitor work on a GPU that
>is supposed to support one);
>
>had to abandon a $200 investment in Windows, because you either couldn't
>spec a system that would keep up with upgrades to Windows or you
>couldn't figure out why your system was slowing down.

How is any of that true? The 4K monitor worked with the Intel video,
just not well enough, adding the video card is a minor concern, I
always intended that if there were a need for one I'd be able to do
so. The investment in Windows is nothing to me, I got a lot of use
out of it in 2 1/2 years, until Linux better supported my fresh
hardware. Big fucking deal.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>>
>>> How is yours materially better...
>>>
>>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>>
>> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>> from.
>
>My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>
><https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>

Sounds easy to travel with.

>>>> [The Mac mini] runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>>
>>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>>
>> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
>> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
>> whole thing.
>
>"I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.
>
>You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
>"quirky".

Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.

>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>
>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>
>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>
>> Both.
>And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>
>Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>to end up with.

But it'd run macOS, so ...

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>> Does it bother you that your monitor is "dangling"?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or your keyboard?
>>>>>
>>>>> :-)
>>>>
>>>> They aren't dangling, they're supposed to be where they are, an
>>>> external storage drive that just sits there plugged in, in constant
>>>> use, is dangling.
>>> Why is that different?
>>>
>>> You're USED TO an external monitor and keyboard, but an external drive
>>> is no different.
>>
>> How in God's name would a monitor or keyboard not be external?
>
>You're kidding.
>
>You are NOT this dumb. No one could possibly be this clueless?
>
>How could a monitor no be internal? Really?
>
><https://www.apple.com/imac/>
>
><https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/desktop-computers/scr/desktops/appref=all-in-one-form-factor>
>
><https://www.hp.com/ca-en/shop/list.aspx?sel=DTP&ctrl=f&fc_form_aio=1>
>
>I could go on, but could you really look any dumber? I don't think so.
>
>As for the keyboard, I was being a tiny bit facetious, but you are
>literally reading words I type on the built-in keyboard...
>
>...of my LAPTOP.

These are not internal things in this context.

>>> On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>>> that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>>>
>>> <https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>>>
>>> <https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>
>>
>> Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
>> two.
>Which is better in what measurable way?

It's elegant.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-16 12:58, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> You're conflating "value" with "monetary cost" alone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not really, because it applies to prefab Winblows systems, too, they
>>>>> cheap out on certain parts to keep the prices competitive, that's why
>>>>> building my own was such a great investment, including of time itself.
>>>>
>>>> How does that even address my point?
>>>
>>> Because value is a quotient of money spent for material gained - my
>>> Gigabyte motherboard makes my system higher end than virtually any
>>> prefab PC system. Apple, though, is probably equally good, just more
>>> costly.
>> In what MATERIAL way?
>>
>> What is a metric...
>>
>> ...that actually matters to your use case...
>>
>> ...that makes your "Gigabyte motherboard" "higher end" than a system you
>> could have just bought?
>>
>> Remember, you're the one who always concedes that a small difference
>> actually doesn't matter to you.
>
>
> But durability does matter - I had my previous computer, with an
> Intel-brand motherboard, for 10 years. It was a fairly high-end
> system initially, ran the earlier forms of Windows 10 very well, and
> was still running Linux beautifully when replaced. I'd like to think
> this machine could last as long, or even longer.
The i5 processor isn't consistent with your claim of "fairly high-end".

Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:

>>>>>> I needed Win10/11 at first, and enjoyed using them, but I moved on. It
>>>>>> was worth it. I got my use out of it, but it outgrew my hardware, as
>>>>>> M$ crapware tends to do, so I got out, I installed Linux. All is
>>>>>> well.
>>>>> No... ...Windows did NOT outgrow your hardware in 2-3 years...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...unless you bought the wrong hardware to begin with.
>>>>
>>>> You really underestimate what M$ does. They have proven that they
>>>> support brand-new, high-end devices, in any real sense, that you can
>>>> boot their crapware on a smaller system doesn't mean it will perform
>>>> adequately, this is why Linux isn't just some oddball alternative,
>>>> it's the real deal.
>>>
>>> I do Windows support for a living (because my clients that have Macs
>>> basically never need to see me), and I know what makes Windows slow down.
>>>
>>> Hint: it's usually NOT the hardware.
>>
>> I kept my system sleek as much as one can with Winblows, I'm not a
>> dummy, I know what the fuck I'm doing with a computer. I know what
>> the updates were bloating onto it, and I know I'd rather use Linux,
>> where it's sane.
>So why spend $200 on Windows in the first place?

It's useful to have Winblows on a freshly built, state-of-the-art
system - Linux lags a little in supporting fresh hardware.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-12-16 13:04, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>>>
>>>> How is yours materially better...
>>>>
>>>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>>>
>>> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>> from.
>>
>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>
>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>
>
> Sounds easy to travel with.

We were discussing expandability, sunshine.

In the context of portability, I could take the computer and leave the
PCIe expansion chassis behind.

>
>
>>>>> [The Mac mini] runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>>>
>>>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>>>
>>> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
>>> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
>>> whole thing.
>>
>> "I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.
>>
>> You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
>> "quirky".
>
>
> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.

In some manner you can't actually describe in detail...

>
>
>>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>>
>>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>>
>>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>>
>>> Both.
>> And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>>
>> Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>> have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>> to end up with.
>
>
> But it'd run macOS, so ...
Which does literally everything you say you do on Linux.

On 2024-12-16 13:09, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>> Does it bother you that your monitor is "dangling"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or your keyboard?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> They aren't dangling, they're supposed to be where they are, an
>>>>> external storage drive that just sits there plugged in, in constant
>>>>> use, is dangling.
>>>> Why is that different?
>>>>
>>>> You're USED TO an external monitor and keyboard, but an external drive
>>>> is no different.
>>>
>>> How in God's name would a monitor or keyboard not be external?
>>
>> You're kidding.
>>
>> You are NOT this dumb. No one could possibly be this clueless?
>>
>> How could a monitor no be internal? Really?
>>
>> <https://www.apple.com/imac/>
>>
>> <https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/desktop-computers/scr/desktops/appref=all-in-one-form-factor>
>>
>> <https://www.hp.com/ca-en/shop/list.aspx?sel=DTP&ctrl=f&fc_form_aio=1>
>>
>> I could go on, but could you really look any dumber? I don't think so.
>>
>> As for the keyboard, I was being a tiny bit facetious, but you are
>> literally reading words I type on the built-in keyboard...
>>
>> ...of my LAPTOP.
>
>
> These are not internal things in this context.

The monitor most certainly is.

>
>
>>>> On some computers (which would have cost you less) you can buy drives
>>>> that perfectly sit under the desktop:
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.amazon.ca/Enclosure-Docking-Station-Readers-Compatible/dp/B0C33HS3RP/ref=asc_df_B0C33HS3RP/?tag=googleshopc0c-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=708007226763&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=13265770567124847550&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9001547&hvtargid=pla-2190493457657&psc=1&mcid=5f9e3a8965ea37bc89aca8270bb63779&gad_source=1>
>>>>
>>>> <https://ca.macsales.com/shop/external-drives/owc-ministack>
>>>
>>> Super neato, but my motherboard can already handle another NVMe or
>>> two.
>> Which is better in what measurable way?
>
>
> It's elegant.
Why? What makes it more "elegant"?

On 2024-12-16 13:10, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>>>> I needed Win10/11 at first, and enjoyed using them, but I moved on. It
>>>>>>> was worth it. I got my use out of it, but it outgrew my hardware, as
>>>>>>> M$ crapware tends to do, so I got out, I installed Linux. All is
>>>>>>> well.
>>>>>> No... ...Windows did NOT outgrow your hardware in 2-3 years...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...unless you bought the wrong hardware to begin with.
>>>>>
>>>>> You really underestimate what M$ does. They have proven that they
>>>>> support brand-new, high-end devices, in any real sense, that you can
>>>>> boot their crapware on a smaller system doesn't mean it will perform
>>>>> adequately, this is why Linux isn't just some oddball alternative,
>>>>> it's the real deal.
>>>>
>>>> I do Windows support for a living (because my clients that have Macs
>>>> basically never need to see me), and I know what makes Windows slow down.
>>>>
>>>> Hint: it's usually NOT the hardware.
>>>
>>> I kept my system sleek as much as one can with Winblows, I'm not a
>>> dummy, I know what the fuck I'm doing with a computer. I know what
>>> the updates were bloating onto it, and I know I'd rather use Linux,
>>> where it's sane.
>> So why spend $200 on Windows in the first place?
>
>
> It's useful to have Winblows on a freshly built, state-of-the-art
> system - Linux lags a little in supporting fresh hardware.
I'm calling bullshit on that excuse.

Show me that Linux didn't support your system's components in any
respect when you bought it.

On 12/16/24 4:04 PM, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> Newegg has prefab systems that aren't the name brand, that's what I'd
>>>>> go for if I wanted an OEM, but you can bet anything it won't have a
>>>>> motherboard like the one I bought as a part.
>>>>
>>>> How is yours materially better...
>>>>
>>>> ...I mean apart from "bragging rights"?
>>>
>>> It's limitlessly expandable. That's what the bragging rights derive
>>> from.
>>
>> My MacBook Air is "limitlessly expandable" to, Sunshine.
>>
>> <https://www.sonnettech.com/product/thunderbolt/pcie-card-expansion-systems.html>
>
>
> Sounds easy to travel with.

Yes, it is far easier than to lug a desktop tower, along with its
separate display, separate keyboard, & separate mouse.

>>>>> [The Mac mini] runs Apple's goofy OS, in any event.
>>>>
>>>> About which you've never been able to articulate what is "goofy" about it.
>>>
>>> I don't like it. It's like a nasty food. And Win11 is like a serving
>>> of food that's too large, but you are nevertheless expected to eat the
>>> whole thing.
>>
>> "I don't like it" is not the same is "it's goofy", princess.
>>
>> You cannot articulate a single actual thing that makes a Mac "goofy" or
>> "quirky".
>
> Finder in Snow Leopard was a piece of junk.

I don't recall it being bad at all: it was speedier than its predecessor
and used less resources. Of course, this complaint from Joel is from an
OS introduced fifteen years ago (2009), so at the very least, he should
be sure to compare it to its contemporary of Windows 7, not current OSs.

>>>>> If I had spent a comparable amount on a comparable OEM PC, it'd not be
>>>>> nearly as good. That's undeniable.
>>>>
>>>> Did you buy a personal computer to get things done...
>>>>
>>>> ...or to brag about how "l337" you are?
>>>
>>> Both.
>> And that says EVERYTHING about you.
>>
>> Given your stated use cases, there is nothing that a Mac Mini couldn't
>> have done as well (or better) than what you spent more money (and time!)
>> to end up with.
>
> But it'd run macOS, so ...

It ships with MacOS, but that's not the only OS choice for l33t braggarts.

-hh

On 2024-12-16 13:01, Joel wrote:
> Alan <nuh-uh@nope.com> wrote:
>
>>>>> Labor and the time it takes [assembling computer hardware] is just part of getting a good PC, you
>>>>> have to buy it as parts, you have to design it. You could pay a
>>>>> fortune for some other person to do the work for you, but it's not
>>>>> worth it, you'd be better off in that case with a decent prefab
>>>>> machine. But what do you do with IKEA furniture? Do you pay someone
>>>>> to assemble it, or do you just bite the bullet and take the time? It's
>>>>> not so different with a PC, it's something you'll get a lot of use out
>>>>> of. I've already had mine for 2 1/2 years, and it's like new. Worth
>>>>> every minute I put in, assembling it.
>>>>
>>>> But you don't pay "a fortune", Joel.
>>>>
>>>> You pay a small premium.
>>>>
>>>> And your computer is "like new"...
>>>>
>>>> ...after you've added a video card to address a failing in your research
>>>> when designing your system...
>>>>
>>>> ...and replacing the OS with Linux because your system was so poorly
>>>> spec'ed it couldn't keep running Windows well.
>>>
>>> That's ridiculous. It's normal to add parts as needed, and replace
>>> bloating M$-crapware OSes with Linux. Why are you harping on it?
>>
>> Because you're trying to convince us your design skills are so "elite",
>> doofus.
>>
>> In the space of just 30 months you:
>>
>> had to add a video card because you didn't realize that you might end up
>> with a 4K monitor (and you couldn't make a 4K monitor work on a GPU that
>> is supposed to support one);
>>
>> had to abandon a $200 investment in Windows, because you either couldn't
>> spec a system that would keep up with upgrades to Windows or you
>> couldn't figure out why your system was slowing down.
>
>
> How is any of that true? The 4K monitor worked with the Intel video,
> just not well enough, adding the video card is a minor concern, I
> always intended that if there were a need for one I'd be able to do
> so. The investment in Windows is nothing to me, I got a lot of use
> out of it in 2 1/2 years, until Linux better supported my fresh
> hardware. Big fucking deal.
>

You bought Windows, because (presumably) you thought it was the better
choice...

....but then you spec'ed hardware that wasn't able to run it for more
than 2.5 years.

And if "investment in Windows is nothing to [you]", then why do you make
such a big deal out of paying less for your system than an equivalent
Mac (which you didn't; a Mac Mini would have done what you're doing and
cost you even less).

And if a monitor isn't working "well enough" and you have to spend
additional dollars to correct it, then you didn't do a very good job of
designing your system in the first place.

You spent additional time on installing the new GPU.

You spent additional time on installing and configuring Linux.

Those are costs over and above what you'd have paid if you'd made your
design choices better in the first place.