On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:00:09 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> I prefer a GUI for email specifically, bc of all the html emails that
> break in something like mutt

I see lack of HTML rendering for email to be a feature, not a bug.

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 18:21:13 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

> Hopefully 7-zip is not like RAR where
> some archive types aren't supported by at least some FLOSS libraries and
> utilities?)

As far as I know, 7-zip is fully open source. And tell your RAR-using
Windows friends that RAR is a waste of time. Every time I’ve come across a
RAR v5 archive in particular (the one that isn’t handled by open-source
tools), I try recompressing it with 7-zip, and it invariably ends up
smaller.

On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 21:59:24 -0400, Popping Mad wrote:

> [Windows] has a built in shell now, so that is a HUGE leap
> forward.

Doesn’t Windows still tie the shell and the terminal emulator GUI
together, so you can’t have one without the other?

On 2024-07-13, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2024-07-12, Borax Man wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-10, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2024-07-10, candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 09:31 this Wednesday (GMT):
>>>>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>>>>>>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>>>>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>>>>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>>>>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>>>>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>>>>>>
>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>> [...]
>>>>>>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>>> [...]
>>>>>>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do they work together?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
>>>>> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
>>>>> its hilarious!
>>>>
>>>> Oh, IG I'll stick to XSS then. Do you run them directly from
>>>> /usr/lib/xscreensaver? (or libexec)
>>>
>>> To lock a system running X11, there's also vlock -n -a (At least in the
>>> standalone utility I have in this distro, I think some other package now
>>> also provides a vlock with less features? Or am I misremembering?)
>>>
>>> But with vlock you don't get the fun and interesting part of watching
>>> screensavers.
>>>
>>
>> vlock on my system only locks the terminal. Useful for a text based
>> terminal, not for X11.
>
> "vlock -a" locks the "entire console display", -n creates a different
> virtual console for vlock to be in while doing this from X11. I think -n
> wasn't always necessary in the past, but at least the manual page
> suggests it is needed now. (Either I'm misremembering or something
> inside earlier versions used to do the -n part automatically?)
>

The -n option doesn't work on my Debian 12 install, says the plugin
'new' is not present.

On 2024-07-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:00:09 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> I prefer a GUI for email specifically, bc of all the html emails that
>> break in something like mutt
>
> I see lack of HTML rendering for email to be a feature, not a bug.

You can hook 'w3m' to display HTML emails in mutt. Isn't as good as
viewing it in a graphical client, but works well enough to render the
text OK without all yht HTML markup.

On 2024-07-13, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 11:54 this Friday (GMT):
>> On 2024-07-10, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 09:31 this Wednesday (GMT):
>>>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>>>>>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>>>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>>>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>>>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>>>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> For me, its
>>>>>>>> - fortune
>>>>>>>> - cowsay
>>>>>>>> - xpenguins
>>>>>>>> - fvwm(3)
>>>>>>>> - oneko
>>>>>>>> - emacs
>>>>>>>> - mc
>>>>>>>> - zsh
>>>>>>>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>>>>>>>> - PCManFM
>>>>>>>> - star
>>>>>>>> - urxvt
>>>>>>>> - xpat2
>>>>>>>> - xlock
>>>>>>>> - links
>>>>>>>> - most
>>>>>>>> - lftp
>>>>>>>> - lzip
>>>>>>>> - xclip
>>>>>>>> - screen
>>>>>>>> - lrzsz
>>>>>>>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>>>>>>>> - nasm
>>>>>>>> - locate
>>>>>>>> - dar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> git obviously
>>>>>>> krita
>>>>>>> aseprite
>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>> rxvt-unicode
>>>>>>> cool-retro-term
>>>>>>> audacious
>>>>>>> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
>>>>>>> imagemagick
>>>>>>> picom
>>>>>>> vim
>>>>>>> n30f
>>>>>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>> rofi
>>>>>>> bucklespring (optional)
>>>>>>> mc (optional)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> aptitude (if on debian based)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>>>>>>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>>>>>>> compile for me under debian
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Do they work together?
>>>>
>>>> Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
>>>> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
>>>> its hilarious!
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, IG I'll stick to XSS then. Do you run them directly from
>>> /usr/lib/xscreensaver? (or libexec)
>>
>> Its built into the menu for FVWM. My FVWM config, which is based on an
>> old template that came with FVWM or FVWM95 has a menu for ScreenSavers
>> which lists the xlock ones and also for XScreenSaver to start it, or
>> start the demo. Thats perhaps why I use them, because in the very early
>> days when I started using Linux, I found them in the menu entry here.
>
>
> Oh, interesting. XFCE doesn't have those, but the binaries are stored in
> /usr/lib(exec)/xscreensaver so its easy to run from there.

FVWM has this thing called "pipe menus", where you can construct a menu
dynamically from the output of a program. I'm sure other window
managers have this, but this means you can call xlock to list all the
screensaver types, then construct a menu which launches the locker from
that.

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024, candycanearter07 wrote:

>> aerc - for email
>
> I prefer a GUI for email specifically, bc of all the html emails that
> break in something like mutt

Try alpine. I almost never have problems with html emails not working.

>> gopass - for passwords
>
> I could never figure out how to get gopass to sync with my phone in a
> reasonable way.

I use pass, and if I needed to synk with my phone I'd probably try
syncthing.

> I just prefer default vim

This is the truth!

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:

> Doesn’t Windows still tie the shell and the terminal emulator GUI
> together, so you can’t have one without the other?

I guess not with the new Windows Terminal. But I don't really know, I
just run zsh in Konsole.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 19:05 this Saturday (GMT):
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:00:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:12 this Thursday (GMT):
>>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 21:58:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>
>>>> As I used to say back in the mainframe days:
>>>>
>>>> Everybody uses COBOL because everybody uses COBOL.
>>>
>>> FORTRAN. COBOL was for brain dead business people who loved to type...
>>
>>
>> Then everyone used BASIC for a while.
>
> Not really. I used FORTH, C, and assembler. I did do one project involving
> BASIC but it was an attempt to speed up the BASIC the application people
> used by preparsing it to a sort of IL for a runtime but I was working in
> Z-80 assembler.
>
> The only time I did much with BASIC was a follow on to the original
> project. An AT used a number of satellite XTs to control the environmental
> chambers. My contract was to develop the AT end in C. Someone else did the
> XTs in BASIC. I eventually went back for 6 months to clean up and enhance
> the XT code.It wasn't bad enough to do a complete rewrite.
>
> I did do a patch on a legacy BASIC program about 20 years ago after
> swearing everyone to secrecy. That was in the same category as when I
> fixed the TV of a woman I was interested in and made her swear I didn't
> know anything about TVs other than how to plug them in. She wanted to play
> Pong and who was I to say no?

Well, from what I've read and stuff, BASIC was on a lot of different
computers.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote at 17:21 this Saturday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-12, Ben Collver wrote:
>
>> On 2024-07-07, Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>> others wouldn't?
>>
>> Some of these are too retro to be mainstream:
>>
>> lshw - Linux equivalent to HP-UX ioscan
>> 7-zip - extracts .7z files
>
> I stand by my choice of BSD tar for this! :-P
>
> (Now seriously, the main benefit is that, being tar, it uses the tar
> syntax for options and commands. Hopefully 7-zip is not like RAR where
> some archive types aren't supported by at least some FLOSS libraries and
> utilities?)
>
>> units - convert between different units
>
> I embarassingly admit I often use this to convert between tempC and
> tempF. I ought to have memorized the conversion already :-P

Yeah, I should probably install it too. I keep googling conversions like
that.

>> xclip - CLI access to copy/paste buffer
>
> xclip can not only access the selections, it can also request different
> targets and list the targets (xclip -o -target TARGETS) available.
>
> For example, when copying from a web page on a mozilla-codebase browser,
> it's possible to get the page URL using xclip, without having to copy it
> separately.

It is really nice, especially if you're like me and copy images
directly. I have a specific keybind for it in xbindkeysrc, also using
dragon-drop (another super useful util!!)

---
xclip -se -c -target image/png -o > /tmp/clipboard.png && dragon-drop -x
/tmp/clipboard.png
control + Alt + Shift + C
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:29 this Sunday (GMT):
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:00:10 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:21 this Wednesday
>> (GMT):
>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:40:06 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>>
>>>> Wait, subtitles were saved as bitmap images?
>>>
>>> In DVD-Video, they were called “subpictures”, and had 2 bits per pixel.
>>> That meant a choice of four different colour-table entries.
>>
>> Interesting, so that's why some subtitles looked different.
>
> It meant they didn’t have to worry about fonts or different writing
> systems. All the subtitle text was prerendered at authoring time.

And they could probably do stuff like color it for different characters
(tho I don't remember seeing anything like that back in the day)
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 07:09 this Sunday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:00:09 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> I prefer a GUI for email specifically, bc of all the html emails that
>>> break in something like mutt
>>
>> I see lack of HTML rendering for email to be a feature, not a bug.
>
> You can hook 'w3m' to display HTML emails in mutt. Isn't as good as
> viewing it in a graphical client, but works well enough to render the
> text OK without all yht HTML markup.

Interesting. I might try mutt again at some point..
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 07:16 this Sunday (GMT):
> On 2024-07-13, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 11:54 this Friday (GMT):
>>> On 2024-07-10, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 09:31 this Wednesday (GMT):
>>>>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>>>>>>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>>>>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>>>>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>>>>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>>>>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For me, its
>>>>>>>>> - fortune
>>>>>>>>> - cowsay
>>>>>>>>> - xpenguins
>>>>>>>>> - fvwm(3)
>>>>>>>>> - oneko
>>>>>>>>> - emacs
>>>>>>>>> - mc
>>>>>>>>> - zsh
>>>>>>>>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>>>>>>>>> - PCManFM
>>>>>>>>> - star
>>>>>>>>> - urxvt
>>>>>>>>> - xpat2
>>>>>>>>> - xlock
>>>>>>>>> - links
>>>>>>>>> - most
>>>>>>>>> - lftp
>>>>>>>>> - lzip
>>>>>>>>> - xclip
>>>>>>>>> - screen
>>>>>>>>> - lrzsz
>>>>>>>>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>>>>>>>>> - nasm
>>>>>>>>> - locate
>>>>>>>>> - dar
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> git obviously
>>>>>>>> krita
>>>>>>>> aseprite
>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>> rxvt-unicode
>>>>>>>> cool-retro-term
>>>>>>>> audacious
>>>>>>>> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
>>>>>>>> imagemagick
>>>>>>>> picom
>>>>>>>> vim
>>>>>>>> n30f
>>>>>>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>> rofi
>>>>>>>> bucklespring (optional)
>>>>>>>> mc (optional)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> aptitude (if on debian based)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>>>>>>>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>>>>>>>> compile for me under debian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do they work together?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
>>>>> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
>>>>> its hilarious!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Oh, IG I'll stick to XSS then. Do you run them directly from
>>>> /usr/lib/xscreensaver? (or libexec)
>>>
>>> Its built into the menu for FVWM. My FVWM config, which is based on an
>>> old template that came with FVWM or FVWM95 has a menu for ScreenSavers
>>> which lists the xlock ones and also for XScreenSaver to start it, or
>>> start the demo. Thats perhaps why I use them, because in the very early
>>> days when I started using Linux, I found them in the menu entry here.
>>
>>
>> Oh, interesting. XFCE doesn't have those, but the binaries are stored in
>> /usr/lib(exec)/xscreensaver so its easy to run from there.
>
> FVWM has this thing called "pipe menus", where you can construct a menu
> dynamically from the output of a program. I'm sure other window
> managers have this, but this means you can call xlock to list all the
> screensaver types, then construct a menu which launches the locker from
> that.

Neat! I know you can implement that relatively easily with something
like dmenu.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 19:05 this Saturday (GMT):
>> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 16:00:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>>
>>> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 04:12 this Thursday (GMT):
>>>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 21:58:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As I used to say back in the mainframe days:
>>>>>
>>>>> Everybody uses COBOL because everybody uses COBOL.
>>>>
>>>> FORTRAN. COBOL was for brain dead business people who loved to type...
>>>
>>> Then everyone used BASIC for a while.
>>
>> Not really. I used FORTH, C, and assembler. I did do one project involving
>> BASIC but it was an attempt to speed up the BASIC the application people
>> used by preparsing it to a sort of IL for a runtime but I was working in
>> Z-80 assembler.
>>
>> The only time I did much with BASIC was a follow on to the original
>> project. An AT used a number of satellite XTs to control the environmental
>> chambers. My contract was to develop the AT end in C. Someone else did the
>> XTs in BASIC. I eventually went back for 6 months to clean up and enhance
>> the XT code.It wasn't bad enough to do a complete rewrite.
>>
>> I did do a patch on a legacy BASIC program about 20 years ago after
>> swearing everyone to secrecy. That was in the same category as when I
>> fixed the TV of a woman I was interested in and made her swear I didn't
>> know anything about TVs other than how to plug them in. She wanted to play
>> Pong and who was I to say no?
>
> Well, from what I've read and stuff, BASIC was on a lot of different
> computers.

In the early days of the home computer (i.e., Apple II, Atari 400/800,
Comodore 64, TRS-80, etc.) the "home computer" usually included a BASIC
interpreter as part of the base system ROM (or as an included ROM
cartridge in the case of the Atari's). Even the IBM PC (which one
could argue was aimed at businesses) came with a BASIC built into the
machine.

If you attached the base system to a TV (or in the case of the PC
whatever monitor it was compatible with) and powered it up with nothing
else installed, you got a BASIC "Ready" prompt and /could/ make some
simple use of the machine.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 16:20:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Well, from what I've read and stuff, BASIC was on a lot of different
> computers.

Yes it was, but 'everyone' didn't make use of it.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 19:14:17 +0300, Anssi Saari wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>
>> Doesn’t Windows still tie the shell and the terminal emulator GUI
>> together, so you can’t have one without the other?
>
> I guess not with the new Windows Terminal.

But it is fundamental in Windows, is it not, that every process has a GUI.
Unless it is a “service”, which runs in the background, and is managed
separately.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 16:20:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote at 17:21 this Saturday
> (GMT):
>
>> For example, when copying from a web page on a mozilla-codebase
>> browser,
>> it's possible to get the page URL using xclip, without having to copy
>> it separately.
>
> It is really nice, especially if you're like me and copy images
> directly.

You may be ending up with reduced-resolution images that way.

Quite often on these WordPress-based sites, the image URL might include
something like “?width=«x»&height=«y»”. If you strip that off, you get a
full-sized image.

In article <v71fcn$ah31$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:

> But it is fundamental in Windows, is it not, that every process has
> a GUI. Unless it is a _service_, which runs in the background, and
> is managed separately.

No, it is not. "Console applications" run with stdin, stdout & stderr,
rather like traditional Unix programs. They can also have character
graphics UIs, in terminal windows.

Classic Mac OS, and iOS, have no concept of a command line, but Windows
definitely has one, or several if you want.

John

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 16:20:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Well, from what I've read and stuff, BASIC was on a lot of different
> computers.

There were a number of slightly different languages, all calling
themselves “BASIC” ...

On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 22:38 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:

> In article <v71fcn$ah31$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
> D'Oliveiro) wrote:
>
>> But it is fundamental in Windows, is it not, that every process has a
>> GUI. Unless it is a _service_, which runs in the background, and is
>> managed separately.
>
> No, it is not. "Console applications" run with stdin, stdout & stderr,
> rather like traditional Unix programs. They can also have character
> graphics UIs, in terminal windows.

So why do Python scripts, for example, have to come in two varieties on
Windows, with different extensions “.PY” versus “.PYW”?

In article <v71tga$cpvf$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 22:38 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:
> > No, it is not. "Console applications" run with stdin, stdout &
> > stderr, rather like traditional Unix programs. They can also have
> > character graphics UIs, in terminal windows.
>
> So why do Python scripts, for example, have to come in two
> varieties on Windows, with different extensions _.PY_ versus _.PYW_?

Don't know, but it seems unwise to try to deduce fundamental properties
of an OS from Python, a language that creates a lot of abstractions of
its own and then implements them on top of different operating systems.

John

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:19 this Monday (GMT):
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 16:20:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> Well, from what I've read and stuff, BASIC was on a lot of different
>> computers.
>
> There were a number of slightly different languages, all calling
> themselves “BASIC” ...

Well, it's a good thing we've moved past languages with similar names
being completely different

js vs java
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 09:21 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:

> In article <v71tga$cpvf$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
> D'Oliveiro) wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 22:38 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:
>> > No, it is not. "Console applications" run with stdin, stdout &
>> > stderr, rather like traditional Unix programs. They can also have
>> > character graphics UIs, in terminal windows.
>>
>> So why do Python scripts, for example, have to come in two varieties on
>> Windows, with different extensions _.PY_ versus _.PYW_?
>
> Don't know, but it seems unwise to try to deduce fundamental properties
> of an OS from Python, a language that creates a lot of abstractions of
> its own and then implements them on top of different operating systems.

Hint: the difference has to do with how GUIs are handled.

On 2024-07-15, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 14 Jul 2024 22:38 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:
>
>> In article <v71fcn$ah31$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
>> D'Oliveiro) wrote:
>>
>>> But it is fundamental in Windows, is it not, that every process has a
>>> GUI. Unless it is a _service_, which runs in the background, and is
>>> managed separately.
>>
>> No, it is not. "Console applications" run with stdin, stdout & stderr,
>> rather like traditional Unix programs. They can also have character
>> graphics UIs, in terminal windows.
>
> So why do Python scripts, for example, have to come in two varieties on
> Windows, with different extensions “.PY” versus “.PYW”?

Windows definately does do "console" applications. What is missing, is
the ability to run a console application without the GUI running itself,
but the standard C "Hello world" program does run on Windows.

On 2024-07-14, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 07:16 this Sunday (GMT):
>> On 2024-07-13, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 11:54 this Friday (GMT):
>>>> On 2024-07-10, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 09:31 this Wednesday (GMT):
>>>>>> On 2024-07-08, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 10:25 this Monday (GMT):
>>>>>>>> On 2024-07-07, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Borax Man <rotflol2@hotmail.com> wrote at 01:10 this Sunday (GMT):
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Just wondering what programs (aside from the coreutils/X11 and other
>>>>>>>>>> elements that make up a basic install), do you consider to be a vital
>>>>>>>>>> part of YOUR Linux install? What are the little additional tools that
>>>>>>>>>> you can't live without, or just consider to be necessary that maybe
>>>>>>>>>> others wouldn't?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For me, its
>>>>>>>>>> - fortune
>>>>>>>>>> - cowsay
>>>>>>>>>> - xpenguins
>>>>>>>>>> - fvwm(3)
>>>>>>>>>> - oneko
>>>>>>>>>> - emacs
>>>>>>>>>> - mc
>>>>>>>>>> - zsh
>>>>>>>>>> - asclock (using the FreeAMP theme)
>>>>>>>>>> - PCManFM
>>>>>>>>>> - star
>>>>>>>>>> - urxvt
>>>>>>>>>> - xpat2
>>>>>>>>>> - xlock
>>>>>>>>>> - links
>>>>>>>>>> - most
>>>>>>>>>> - lftp
>>>>>>>>>> - lzip
>>>>>>>>>> - xclip
>>>>>>>>>> - screen
>>>>>>>>>> - lrzsz
>>>>>>>>>> - gcc/g++/gdc
>>>>>>>>>> - nasm
>>>>>>>>>> - locate
>>>>>>>>>> - dar
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I'm sure I'm forgetting some here, but
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> git obviously
>>>>>>>>> krita
>>>>>>>>> aseprite
>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>> rxvt-unicode
>>>>>>>>> cool-retro-term
>>>>>>>>> audacious
>>>>>>>>> mpv (and the ffmpeg dependency)
>>>>>>>>> imagemagick
>>>>>>>>> picom
>>>>>>>>> vim
>>>>>>>>> n30f
>>>>>>>>> xscreensaver (yes i use it as my locker)
>>>>>>>>> screen
>>>>>>>>> less
>>>>>>>>> rofi
>>>>>>>>> bucklespring (optional)
>>>>>>>>> mc (optional)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> aptitude (if on debian based)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> sidenote thank you for mentioning xpenguins i have been looking for a
>>>>>>>>> replacement for AMOR (amazing misuse of resources) forever since it wont
>>>>>>>>> compile for me under debian
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I always have both XScreenSaver and XLockmore.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do they work together?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not really! I generally just use xlock when I want to lock my screen.
>>>>>> XScreenSaver, well, my kids enjoy watching the bouncing cows, they think
>>>>>> its hilarious!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, IG I'll stick to XSS then. Do you run them directly from
>>>>> /usr/lib/xscreensaver? (or libexec)
>>>>
>>>> Its built into the menu for FVWM. My FVWM config, which is based on an
>>>> old template that came with FVWM or FVWM95 has a menu for ScreenSavers
>>>> which lists the xlock ones and also for XScreenSaver to start it, or
>>>> start the demo. Thats perhaps why I use them, because in the very early
>>>> days when I started using Linux, I found them in the menu entry here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Oh, interesting. XFCE doesn't have those, but the binaries are stored in
>>> /usr/lib(exec)/xscreensaver so its easy to run from there.
>>
>> FVWM has this thing called "pipe menus", where you can construct a menu
>> dynamically from the output of a program. I'm sure other window
>> managers have this, but this means you can call xlock to list all the
>> screensaver types, then construct a menu which launches the locker from
>> that.
>
>
> Neat! I know you can implement that relatively easily with something
> like dmenu.

dmenu is prety good in that respect. I did use it for another window
manager where the piperead dynamic menus were not available, to solve
the same problem. The advantage though of FVWM is that the menu is
equal to other menus, operate the same, same fonts, appearance, etc,
whereas with dmenu, its a different look, feel and operation.

That said, dmenu is part of my standard install.