On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:48:47 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> MV = Multi-Valued = Data fields that can hold long lists of that KIND
> of information. If you have a fleet-tracking DB then there'd be ONE
> field saying "mileage" and likely another for "fuel-added" and they'd
> just be added-to over time.

That’s just a single total in each field.

> The record for that vehicle is read all-at-once, rather than there
> being dozens, hundreds, of records for said vehicle every time it
> was fueled-up.

This is why you have joins: so that you can retrieve multiple related
records with a single query. This is the proper relational way of doing
it.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:51:27 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 11/2/24 8:15 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 03:21:40 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> IMHO, MV is still the 'best', 'most logical', 'most compact'.
>>
>> Except when you need to do updates.
>
> As said, that's NOT as complex or resource-consuming as you believe.

It’s quite complicated: you have to retrieve all the current values, add
the new ones, then put them all back. Much easier if you can just add the
new ones, or delete the old ones, directly.

This is why normalization was invented. And First Normal Form is just the
first step along that road: higher orders of normalization also simplify
updates in additional situations, involving more subtle functional
dependencies among fields.

All this was worked out when you were still a babe in arms.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 20:59:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> That level of technology is called “chalcolithic”. That is, they mainly
> use fine stone tools, but they have also found a limited use for copper,
> which can be found lying around pure in some places, is easily workable
> but too soft to do much with. And they haven’t yet developed smelting
> technology to extract metals from ores and create harder alloys out of
> them, like bronze.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Mesoamerica

South and Central America advanced beyond hammering out found copper.
There isn't much evidence in North America.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:50:01 +0100, D wrote:

> My worst winter car ever was a BMW 320 diesel. The back would slide
> around if you were too aggressive with the acceleration in winter, but
> as long as you took it slow, it worked.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_320

Not that BMW 320 I presume? I don't keep up with BMWs and had to look it
up. I got there before finding the 3 series 320i.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 12:49:50 -0700, Peter Flass wrote:

> Cracks me up to see some guy cowering behind a wall holding is gun over
> his head and just letting loose in the general direction of his
> opponent, without being able to see a thing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periscope_rifle

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:52:34 +0100, D wrote:

> Robots, automation, optimization and general technological development
> will take care of it and us. I'm personally not worrie in the least. On
> the other hand, I am an optimist. Many people do not like me for being
> an optimist, but such is life.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel)

I found that in my high school library shelved with Heinlein and other
writers. Vonnegut was nit well known in the early '60s. Perhaps the
librarian made the connection between Illium and Troy High.

It was thought provoking. The setting was a thinly veiled Tri-Cities which
made it all the more interesting. I was on a path which ultimately led to
RPI, which was more or less across the street, and a career as one of the
engineers who kept the robots and automation going.

The problem hasn't gone away. What do you do with the millions, if not
billions, who are unneeded in the 21st century and don't even have the
skills and aptitude to survive?

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:45:32 +0100, D wrote:

> True. Let's hope Putin will make a hueg error of judgment soon, or that
> the court will tire of him. Would not be surprised if it happens within
> 3-5 years.

Let me wipe the dust off my crystal ball. Ah, I see it now. In 3-5 years
Zelensky will be a footnote in history. It's a bit cloudy whether or not
he will be Diemed.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:43:19 +0100, D wrote:

> The most civilized I have met are iranians, egyptians and jordanians. Of
> the iranians, none were religious.

That is true for the Iranians I've known. However it's a self-selected
group since they had gotten the hell out of Iran during/after the
revolution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Separation

The film itself is interesting for showing the conflicts between a
secular, middle-class family and a very religious lower class care giver.
In one scene the caregiver calls dial-an-iman on her cellphone to find out
the correct doctrine.

The second reason it is interesting is it was made in Iran. The writer/
director had been banned from making the movie for a short time but was
allowed to continue.

On Sun, 03 Nov 2024 19:15:57 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-11-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2024 00:13, rbowman wrote:
>
>>> I'm not sure Christianity ever took completely in Germans where 'never
>>> forget and never forgive' is more likely.
>>
>> "God may forgive you, but I won't"
>>
>> That was allegedly said by an American pilot, to a novice first
>> officer.
>>
>> "Put your trust in God, and Pratt and Whitney" is another famous quite
>> from the same source, uttered on being told that the route involved no
>> alternates whatsoever...
>
> "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dG9OtzvX0_8

I was so much older then; I'm younger than that now.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:05:43 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> I looked up the details of Renault 4 suspension after reading the above;
> it didn’t have self-levelling suspension (it was the Citroën 2CV I was
> thinking of), but it did have a clever system nonetheless.

Citroën outdid themselves with the DS. Nothing like watching your car sink
down on its haunches like a tired dog when you parked it. The Citroën I
would love to have is the Traction Avant. The last time I looked they
weren't all that expensive but I've got enough damn vehicles.

On Sun, 03 Nov 2024 11:25:52 -1000, Lynn Wheeler wrote:

> Reducing the weight by 2/3rds with two cylinder engine ... made the
> Model T a significantly more attractive vehicle.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_T

There were a series of letter cars before the T. The original 1903 Model A
was two cylinder, as were a couple of other predecessors to the T. The T
was four cylinder.

Supposedly the next design after the T was so revolutionary Ford rebooted
the alphabet and called it the Model A.

My favorite Ford story is about a vendor who wondered why the shipping
crates for his parts were specified in such great detail. In those days
car bodies were sheet metal over wooden frames. The Ford workers would
carefully disassemble the shipping crates and use the wood for the bosy
frames.

On 11/3/24 7:11 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:45:32 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> True. Let's hope Putin will make a hueg error of judgment soon, or that
>> the court will tire of him. Would not be surprised if it happens within
>> 3-5 years.
>
> Let me wipe the dust off my crystal ball. Ah, I see it now. In 3-5 years
> Zelensky will be a footnote in history. It's a bit cloudy whether or not
> he will be Diemed.

An evil crystal for sure !

However, it MAY be correct. Russia has HUGE
resources while Ukraine, even in good circumstances,
is far behind the curve. I don't think Ukraine can
"win" in the conventional sense - it will take
something more "political".

With NK troops and more and more Chinese supplies
Russia can keep at this for a long time, even expand
threats/influence to eastern Europe. Putin will have
to drop dead - and NO assurances his replacement will
be ANY better, maybe worse.

Zel ... SOMEDAY he will get his big statue. Won't
be anytime soon though.

On 11/3/24 6:30 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:48:47 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> MV = Multi-Valued = Data fields that can hold long lists of that KIND
>> of information. If you have a fleet-tracking DB then there'd be ONE
>> field saying "mileage" and likely another for "fuel-added" and they'd
>> just be added-to over time.
>
> That’s just a single total in each field.

It's every like-value in one field - a 'list' so
to speak - divided as sub-values - but sub-sub-
values are also legit.

>> The record for that vehicle is read all-at-once, rather than there
>> being dozens, hundreds, of records for said vehicle every time it
>> was fueled-up.
>
> This is why you have joins: so that you can retrieve multiple related
> records with a single query. This is the proper relational way of doing
> it.

Why join when the MV approach keeps yer data
in an already-joined state ???

You just read straight across. The RECORD is
"Vehicle_Number". Inside we have lists (fields)
for date, mileage, fuel, comment. Date[1] goes
with Mileage[1] goes with Fuel[1] goes with
Comment[1]. If you want fuel mileage you add
a calc field.

Python, and to some extent FORTRAN, have very good
string list-manipulation/reading/writing/insertion/deletion
capabilities ... it'd be fairly easy to set up a MV DB in
those languages.

The old PICK-ish DB I spent a decade with used pure
ASCII-delimited fields (this was pre-unicode, you
could bring 'em up in a text editor and see all the
old IBM-BIOS high-ascii symbols).

255 separated records, 254 separated fields, 253 separated
sub-fields, 252 sub-sub-fields and so forth - thus you
could have nearly 200 sub-sub-sub-sub-(etc)-values to
the data if you were that insane. Going deep programmatically
for custom sorts and such could be useful however.

I think PICK wound up being written *in* PICK for the most
part... a compiler for a sort of BASIC was included so
PICK would up being writ in PICK-BASIC. The version I
used DID have some key functions writ in 'C'/ASM though
for top speed.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:12:25 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 09:55:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> The history of transport is absolutely dominated by economics.
>
> The history of everything technological is absolutely dominated by
> economics.
>
>> In the UK we built canals, which were cheaper than horse and cart, but
>> then the railways came, and they were even cheaper, and finally we had
>> motor vehicles and they were cheaper still.
>
> And yet the canals are still there. Somebody must be maintaining them.

Many have become historic sites.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erie_Canal

Along with the supporting industries:

https://eriecanalway.org/get-involved/matton

My father worked at Matton's in the '60s and I've been to a launch there.
Even then the end was in sight.

Some canals are still active like those on the St Lawrence Seaway or the
Intracoastal Waterway but for many only some segments are still remaining.

The Mississippi and other rivers still move a lot of freight.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:15:53 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Or the US could go back to what it did in the 19th century, and declare
> itself a “developing” country that couldn’t afford to abide by
> international Intellectual Property agreements, and simply copy things
> without permission.

Yeah, it did piss the Brits off when we started churning out Blue Willow
dinnerware.

On 4 Nov 2024 01:44:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:15:53 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Or the US could go back to what it did in the 19th century, and declare
>> itself a “developing” country that couldn’t afford to abide by
>> international Intellectual Property agreements, and simply copy things
>> without permission.
>
> Yeah, it did piss the Brits off when we started churning out Blue Willow
> dinnerware.

Yet it wouldn’t grant the same courtesy to other countries in the 20th
century and beyond.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2024 02:06:48 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 4 Nov 2024 01:44:20 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:15:53 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Or the US could go back to what it did in the 19th century, and
>>> declare itself a “developing” country that couldn’t afford to abide by
>>> international Intellectual Property agreements, and simply copy things
>>> without permission.
>>
>> Yeah, it did piss the Brits off when we started churning out Blue
>> Willow dinnerware.
>
> Yet it wouldn’t grant the same courtesy to other countries in the 20th
> century and beyond.

You have a rather fucked up grasp of reality. Start with 'Might is Right'
and work your way on from there.

https://dn790009.ca.archive.org/0/items/mightisrightragnarredbeard_201908/
Might%20is%20Right%20-%20Ragnar%20Redbeard_text.pdf

On Mon, 3 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:50:01 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> My worst winter car ever was a BMW 320 diesel. The back would slide
>> around if you were too aggressive with the acceleration in winter, but
>> as long as you took it slow, it worked.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_320
>
> Not that BMW 320 I presume? I don't keep up with BMWs and had to look it
> up. I got there before finding the 3 series 320i.
>

Haha, I wish! ;) No, here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_3_Series .

On Mon, 4 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:52:34 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Robots, automation, optimization and general technological development
>> will take care of it and us. I'm personally not worrie in the least. On
>> the other hand, I am an optimist. Many people do not like me for being
>> an optimist, but such is life.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Player_Piano_(novel)
>
> I found that in my high school library shelved with Heinlein and other
> writers. Vonnegut was nit well known in the early '60s. Perhaps the
> librarian made the connection between Illium and Troy High.
>
> It was thought provoking. The setting was a thinly veiled Tri-Cities which
> made it all the more interesting. I was on a path which ultimately led to
> RPI, which was more or less across the street, and a career as one of the
> engineers who kept the robots and automation going.

Great book! Must have been over 2 decades since I last read it.

> The problem hasn't gone away. What do you do with the millions, if not
> billions, who are unneeded in the 21st century and don't even have the
> skills and aptitude to survive?
>

Good question. These are some of the standard answers:

"In terms of society, I think there will always be a demand for things as
long as humans have desires. Having AI replacing all production I think
we'll see the following activities for humans:

* Sports
* Pleasure/Hospitality/Leisure industry
* Culture (human created culture, plays, concerts will get premium value
much like we can today buy factory produced items at a fraction of the
price of handmade items.)
* Science (we'll do science with the help of AI, if they do not reach
god-like status.)
* Teaching/education (having a human teacher will become a value-add
even though everything would be available online and through AI:s)
* Raising children/family time
* Philosophy
* Space exploration (Yes, we can send robots, but given a
society rich
enough I think the human will to explore and to "be there" will come
into play.
* Religion/psychology/therapy

So no matter how powerful AI becomes I think the above are examples of
areas where humans will still play a role and add value just by being
humans.".

I think we also need some good progress in psychology around what
motivates people, what gives them meaning, and happiness. We have made a
lot of progress in that field, but the knowledge is mostly locked up
behind the iron gates of universities and clinics, and not spread widely
to the public through our schools.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:45:32 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> True. Let's hope Putin will make a hueg error of judgment soon, or that
>> the court will tire of him. Would not be surprised if it happens within
>> 3-5 years.
>
> Let me wipe the dust off my crystal ball. Ah, I see it now. In 3-5 years
> Zelensky will be a footnote in history. It's a bit cloudy whether or not
> he will be Diemed.
>

Who cares about Zelensky? I care about Ukraine and that russia will not
win. About the individual players, Zelensky and Putin, I care very little,
although it would be fun to see Putin humiliated and punished for all the
crimes he has committed.

On Mon, 4 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:43:19 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> The most civilized I have met are iranians, egyptians and jordanians. Of
>> the iranians, none were religious.
>
> That is true for the Iranians I've known. However it's a self-selected
> group since they had gotten the hell out of Iran during/after the
> revolution.

This is the truth for all those groups of people I've met. They all left
and went to sweden. Except the Jordanians, my father was working with the
jordanian government but that meant his counter parts were probably
amongst the higher levels of society.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Separation
>
> The film itself is interesting for showing the conflicts between a
> secular, middle-class family and a very religious lower class care giver.
> In one scene the caregiver calls dial-an-iman on her cellphone to find out
> the correct doctrine.
>
> The second reason it is interesting is it was made in Iran. The writer/
> director had been banned from making the movie for a short time but was
> allowed to continue.
>
>

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 11/3/24 7:11 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 21:45:32 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> True. Let's hope Putin will make a hueg error of judgment soon, or that
>>> the court will tire of him. Would not be surprised if it happens within
>>> 3-5 years.
>>
>> Let me wipe the dust off my crystal ball. Ah, I see it now. In 3-5 years
>> Zelensky will be a footnote in history. It's a bit cloudy whether or not
>> he will be Diemed.
>
> An evil crystal for sure !
>
> However, it MAY be correct. Russia has HUGE
> resources while Ukraine, even in good circumstances,
> is far behind the curve. I don't think Ukraine can
> "win" in the conventional sense - it will take
> something more "political".
>
> With NK troops and more and more Chinese supplies
> Russia can keep at this for a long time, even expand
> threats/influence to eastern Europe. Putin will have
> to drop dead - and NO assurances his replacement will
> be ANY better, maybe worse.
>
> Zel ... SOMEDAY he will get his big statue. Won't
> be anytime soon though.
>

Well, as it is said in mainstream european newspapers, Ukraine will win,
if europe wants it. Europes economy is 15x russia, and can continue to
outspend it until Putin dies of old age. Europe also has a population
advantage as well. Add to that, that there's plenty of room to tighten the
financial restrictions and force india somewhat into line.

But if europe does not want it, Ukraine will collapse quickly. If Ukraine
collapses, soon moldavia, georgia and the baltics will follow.

Fortunately for me, I think this worst case scenario is 10-20 years in the
future, so plenty of time for me to sell all my property in europe and
move to the rural US! =)

Charlie Gibbs wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On 2024-11-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 03/11/2024 00:13, rbowman wrote:
>
>>> I'm not sure Christianity ever took completely in Germans where 'never
>>> forget and never forgive' is more likely.
>>
>> "God may forgive you, but I won't"
>>
>> That was allegedly said by an American pilot, to a novice first officer.
>>
>> "Put your trust in God, and Pratt and Whitney" is another famous quite
>> from the same source, uttered on being told that the route involved no
>> alternates whatsoever...
>
> "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition."

A Philip Jose Farmer story about lecherous fighter pilot Henry Miller in a
nursing home.

https://teakdoor.com/jokes-and-funny-stories/175994-henry-miller-dawn-patrol.html

Whittaker moaned, her 185-horsepower, six-cylinder, in-line, water-cooled
BMW IIIa purring. Her fingers were playing with her cockpit
instrumentation. Sacre merde! The hoity-toity Fokker wouldn’t answer his
challenge, but she wasn’t above a jack-off dogfight, a furtive combat with
herself. Under the sheet, in a darkness like the inside of a night cloud,
the Lone Eagle glided. Her widespread legs guided him like landing-strip
lights. He was ready for sudden action, and air-raid-siren scream, her
fists beating at his head like shrapnel from Archie. He pushed her hand
away, felt no start, heard no protest. He nose-dived, the wind screaming
through the wing wires and struts, his motor roaring. Then he was zeroed
in, firing quick short bursts, what the hell, his tongue was a Vickers
machine gun, too. Now, all caution abandoned, he poured a long, slow
stream of fire into her cockpit. The Fokker shuddered and moaned under his
blasting. Thank God she wasn’t like so many of the Columbia Huns. They
weren’t too clean; they smelled like the early World War One rotary-engine
planes. Castor oil was used then for lubrication, and the poor bastards
that breathed it got diarrhea. Her exhaust pipe was clean and her cockpit
was sprayed with some Frenchy-smelling perfume. Tasted like bootleg alky.
No time for nostalgia now, though.

The whole story is pretty funny.

--
God was satisfied with his own work, and that is fatal.
-- Samuel Butler

Charlie Gibbs wrote this post while blinking in Morse code:

> On 2024-11-03, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 02/11/2024 21:07, D wrote:
>>
>>> In terms of crime of ex-military, another factor could be what they did
>>> and experienced while in the military, and how well prepare they were to
>>> enter society again after the military.
>>
>> A lot of organised crime post WWII was ex military, they basically
>> having been taught to do it.
>>
>> Also we had many many tramps (hobos) - ex servicemen suffering from what
>> we would now call PTSD, that simply couldn't deal with peace time.
>>
>> Not many came back from war undamaged in some way. If they came back at
>> all..
>
> Some became mercenaries because they just couldn't adapt to peacetime.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRWCK9zGynA

Warren Zevon - Roland the Headless Thomson Gunner

--
As I was going up Punch Card Hill,
Feeling worse and worser,
There I met a C.R.T.
And it drop't me a cursor.

C.R.T., C.R.T.,
Phosphors light on you!
If I had fifty hours a day
I'd spend them all at you.
-- Uncle Colonel's Cursory Rhymes

On 03/11/2024 19:09, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 09:55:42 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>
>> The USA already has the transcontinental tracks, they just need
>> upgrading.
>
> https://transportgeography.org/contents/chapter5/rail-transportation-
> pipelines/rail-track-mileage-united-states/
>
> 93,000 miles worth. It wouldn't be an impossible task and would make more
> sense than pouring billions down Ukrainian, Israeli, and other rat holes.

But you aren't.

You are using them to dispose of obsolete kit that has already been
written off.

> For a sense of scale, the interstate system is about 47,000 miles.
>
>> If high speed rail freight became cheaper than a truck, people would
>> switch to it.
>
> Intermodal is already in use for loads that are not time sensitive.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermodal_freight_transport
>
> A company I worked for used a variation. There was a terminal in
> Mississippi. Trucks would bring in furniture from the factories in the
> southeast and it would be loaded into railcars. The railcars would then be
> unloaded in Seattle, Helena, or other terminals for delivery. That worked
> for mixed loads. Truckload freight was usually done with trucks. Since
> many of the consignees didn't have rail sidings sending it by rail would
> have meant a lot of extra handling. The company wasn't big enough to make
> piggybacks feasible.
>
Well that is better than it could be. The basics are already there. Just
need to be made capable of taking 200mph electric trains. And having
twin track operation where it is interleaved with slower freight

That is NOT cheap.

But its way cheaper than 'renewable energy' or 'green fuel'

--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.