On 2 Nov 2024 01:30:14 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> The truth is while the Cherokee didn't have a problem enslaving people
> from other tribes ...

It’s in the Christian Bible, isn’t it? (And they got that part from the
Jews.) It says there’s nothing wrong with slavery per se, but you should
make sure to only enslave people from other tribes, not your own.

The abolitionist movement didn’t come from any religious idea; I see it as
the first major move towards seeing right and wrong as something based on
universal humanist principles, not deriving from any religious doctrine.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 2 Nov 2024 19:25:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> The Corvettes rules the straights but would get passed by Minis in the
>> corners.
>
> Presumably those were Mini Coopers, not the regular Leyland Minis.
> Regular Leyland engines were even worse than USian ones.

Yes, Mini Coopers, probably the S variant. The B class Corvettes would
disappear on the straight leaving the Minis motoring along placidly. Then
came the turns. Different classes so they weren't racing each other but it
was amusing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_Rock_Park

It's a short track so handling trumps sheer power. I never went to a name
brand race there. These were local SCCA races, many of the entries being
run what you brung. The group I went with ran a Super Seven with a
Cosworth engine so it was trailered. I won't say the car never saw a
public road but it wasn't street legal by any stretch. The track really
favored the Sevens. Not a lot of top speed but their acceleration would
still be acceptable today. Just as well the top speeds were limited; the
clamshell fenders tended to flap like a crow at speed.

I think my Toyota hatch is more in the spirit of the original Minis than
the pricey BMW versions. It's used for club racing in Japan and doesn't do
badly around corners even without a few TRD trinkets.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 19:23:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> If air travel becomes impossible high speed rail would suit the USA
> perfectly. Plenty of empty space.
>
> I think current top speeds are around 200mph.

The US struggles with low speed rail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2024-03-21/high-speed-rail

That's the poster child for screwing up high speed rail.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acela

Acela is more successful but when it averages out at 70 mph it isn't
exactly high speed. The problem with plenty of empty space is that it's
more or less empty. No large metropolitan areas, no ridership, no money.

This city has two train stations and no passenger service. The Milwaukee
Line is gone completely. The station is the home of the Boone and Crockett
club abd much of the right of way has been converted to bike trails.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missoula_station_(Northern_Pacific_Railway)

The other still has tracks. The coal trains wave as they pass by.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:25:34 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 19:23:44 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> ... high speed rail would suit the USA perfectly. Plenty of empty
>> space.
>
> Countries that have got high-speed rail to work have another factor
> besides empty space: the ability for the Government to work effectively
> with private companies.
>
> In the USA, there is this automatic assumption that the Government is
> incompetent and not to be trusted.

The link I posted about the California High Speed Rail project bears that
put. Even in the 19th century when most of the US rail infrastructure was
built corruption was the catch of the day.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cr%C3%A9dit_Mobilier_scandal

If you like dramas:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell_on_Wheels_(TV_series)

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:29:05 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 11:15:29 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Its a perfectly adequate solution to their particular conditions.
>
> Someone else was singing the praises of Carroll Shelby, a USian who
> designed cars so good, they could almost be European.
>
> Basically, he was a freak.

The US isn't Europe and it isn't New Zealand. We do what we do rather
well.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian

Munro had to go to Bonneville to set world records and he was riding an
Indian built in Springfield Massachusetts. He also raced a Velocette but
could only squeeze 138 mph out of it, hardly a record outsize of NZ.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 22:08:51 +0100, D wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 11:44:25 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 1 Nov 2024 22:30:39 +0100, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> During the late 18th and early 19th centuries, there was a
>>>>> significant demand for labor in plantations across the Americas and
>>>>> on islands such as Mauritius and Réunion. This demand fueled a slave
>>>>> trade that affected many African communities. While much of this
>>>>> trade involved individuals from coastal regions or areas further
>>>>> north, it also extended into southern Africa.
>>>>
>>>> With a whole continent full of indigenous labor they imported
>>>> Africans.
>>>> The truth is while the Cherokee didn't have a problem enslaving
>>>> people from other tribes they saw the value of buying Africans
>>>> instead. When they headed to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears they took
>>>> their African slaves with them.
>>>
>>> Really? So indians bought negro slaves? Had no idea! In europe,
>>> indians can do no wrong, and their history is held up as a paragon of
>>> eco-friendly and just, which was crushed by the bad white man.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1842_Slave_Revolt_in_the_Cherokee_Nation
>>
>> That's still having repercussions.
>>
>> https://www.npr.org/2011/09/20/140630565/americas-2nd-largest-indian-
>> tribe-expels-blacks
>
> Amazing! That would never slip past swedish censorship!

It isn't exactly shouted from the rooftops in the US. The present day
problems are not exclusive to blacks. Being on the tribal roll can have
distinct advantages particularly with the tribes that run casinos. In this
area Métis have the same problem. Indians are as racist as whites so the
half-breeds don't get on the rolls and they may not be accepted by the
whites either.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
M%C3%A9tis#M%C3%A9tis_people_in_the_United_States

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 22:03:34 +0100, D wrote:

> I also have sometimes thought that one "super power" of christianity is
> forgiveness and (in theory) an end to family feuds.
>
> If your ead Njals saga you can see the power of the family feud and how
> damaging it can be to society when more and more people are dragged into
> it.

Jesse Byock is an archaeologist at UCLA and has focused on Iceland.
Iceland and its Things are sometimes held up as an example of a
libertarian society. In one of his books Byock characterized it as a
society of feuding farmers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatfield%E2%80%93McCoy_feud

Feuds weren't limited to Iceland. I can understand feuds. No blood was
shed but after a perceived slight in the positioning in a funeral
procession my mother never spoke to my uncle again. Likewise, after a
disagreement about the care of their aged mother my father and uncle never
spoke to their sister again. It made Christmas interesting.

I'm not sure Christianity ever took completely in Germans where 'never
forget and never forgive' is more likely.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 03:21:40 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> IMHO, MV is still the 'best', 'most logical', 'most compact'.

Except when you need to do updates.

On 2 Nov 2024 23:47:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian

Motorbikes ... eugghhh.

If they were invented today, they wouldn’t be allowed.

On 2 Nov 2024 22:58:53 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 2 Nov 2024 19:25:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> The Corvettes rules the straights but would get passed by Minis in the
>>> corners.
>>
>> Presumably those were Mini Coopers, not the regular Leyland Minis.
>> Regular Leyland engines were even worse than USian ones.
>
> Yes, Mini Coopers, probably the S variant.

Cooper was the racing team that totally wiped the floor with Ferrari, back
in the 1950s, I think it was. Enzo had a mouth that was bigger than his
engineering credentials, and he was adamant that the engine should be at
the front, because “you don’t put the cart before the horse”, or some such
cant like that. The Cooper racing cars popularized the mid-engine concept,
and their superior handling spoke for itself. Finally even Ferrari was
forced to embrace the idea in some of their cars.

On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:36:16 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> The abolitionist movement didn’t come from any religious idea; I see it
> as the first major move towards seeing right and wrong as something
> based on universal humanist principles, not deriving from any religious
> doctrine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Beecher_Stowe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ward_Beecher
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Beecher
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lloyd_Garrison
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Parker

In the US never underestimate the religious influence, particularly from
the various strains of Calvinism. Jefferson self identified as a Unitarian
but had Deist tendencies. Monroe, Madison, and Franklin may have had
leanings too. They were a minority. In the 1800 election Jefferson was
attacked as an atheist and infidel.

'Commonweal' is a liberal Catholic magazine but I remember one article
that argued because if the roots of the US even the Catholics have been
influenced by Calvinism.

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 00:17:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 2 Nov 2024 23:47:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian
>
> Motorbikes ... eugghhh.
>
> If they were invented today, they wouldn’t be allowed.

Luckily they weren't invented yesterday so I have three in the driveway. I
believe in the proper tool for every job.

On 3 Nov 2024 00:47:30 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:36:16 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The abolitionist movement didn’t come from any religious idea; I see it
>> as the first major move towards seeing right and wrong as something
>> based on universal humanist principles, not deriving from any religious
>> doctrine.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown_(abolitionist)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harriet_Beecher_Stowe
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ward_Beecher
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Beecher
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Lloyd_Garrison
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Parker
>
> In the US never underestimate the religious influence, particularly from
> the various strains of Calvinism.

I’m sure there are so many disagreements between the various sects that
call themselves “Christian” (or indeed any other religious label), that
you can find someone who agrees with just about any position.

Remember that the first steps towards abolishing slavery were not taken in
the US, but in Europe.

On 3 Nov 2024 01:03:44 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 00:17:56 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 2 Nov 2024 23:47:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_World's_Fastest_Indian
>>
>> Motorbikes ... eugghhh.
>>
>> If they were invented today, they wouldn’t be allowed.
>
> Luckily they weren't invented yesterday so I have three in the driveway.
> I believe in the proper tool for every job.

Look at all the safety improvements that have been incorporated into four-
wheel vehicles over the last half century or more ... almost none of which
are applicable on two wheels.

A few years ago there was a protest against an increase in Accident
Compensation levies on motorbike riders, being proposed because the agency
was paying out something like 4× the amount it was collecting from that
group. The protestors being predominantly from upper income brackets and
politically well-connected, the protest was successful, and the agency
backed down.

One of the organizers of the demonstration died on the way home, when his
motorbike lost traction on a bend and crashed. Single-vehicle accidents
with motorbikes? Happen all the time.

That just sums things up for me.

On 11/2/24 7:49 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 02/11/2024 05:19, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> I don't think there's any distinct "advantage" these
>>    days in either flat-file or MV. Plusses and minuses
>>    for each approach. It's all a matter of how you FEEL
>>    data should be structured/stored.
>>
>>    In short, 'religion'.
>
> MV? no one seems to know what 'MV' is. Did you invent it?

???

MV = Multi-Valued = Data fields that can hold long
lists of that KIND of information. If you have a
fleet-tracking DB then there'd be ONE field saying
"mileage" and likely another for "fuel-added" and
they'd just be added-to over time. The record for
that vehicle is read all-at-once, rather than there
being dozens, hundreds, of records for said vehicle
every time it was fueled-up.

> Insofar as data storage goes there are considerable advantages to a
> normalised database with indices et al.
>
> It is not a religious choice.

Ummm ... I'd still say so.

MV DBs can also have indexes BTW.

> The religion comes in with supporters who have been told that
> *irrespective of the actual context or uses* it is 'simply the best'
>
> Rules are for the guidance of wise men and the obedience of fools.

MV DBs are still sold - sometimes for really serious
money - so clearly a lot of people/corps DO like that
way of dealing with data. OpenQM is likely best known
to Linux users.

https://www.predictiveanalyticstoday.com/top-free-commercial-multivalue-database/

On 11/2/24 8:15 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 03:21:40 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> IMHO, MV is still the 'best', 'most logical', 'most compact'.
>
> Except when you need to do updates.

As said, that's NOT as complex or resource-consuming
as you believe. Maintaining a 'data dictionary', a
guide to the exact structure of each DB, removes
possible ambiguities.

Anyhow ...

https://www.predictiveanalyticstoday.com/top-free-commercial-multivalue-database/

On Sun, 3 Nov 2024 01:12:38 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Look at all the safety improvements that have been incorporated into
> four-
> wheel vehicles over the last half century or more ... almost none of
> which are applicable on two wheels.

If you prioritize safety, fine.

On 02/11/2024 19:25, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 11:43:08 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> In terms of american sports cars, is the Chevrolet Corvette any good
>> compared with, say a Porsche?
>
> Probably not. My experience goes back to the '60s and SCCA races at
> Limerock. The Corvettes rules the straights but would get passed by Minis
> in the corners.
>
> I looked at a Stingray from that era. I had a AH Sprite rollerskate which
> was one of the smallest cars on the road. I found it more comfortable than
> the huge Stingray, although entry/exit was interesting.
>
> Corvettes have improved a lot since then but given the choice I'd go with
> a 911.

I remember those days. In the UK we had lightweight things like minis
and Lotuses that would regularly compete against big American muscle cars.

In the wet the muscle cars were tail happy dogs and the lighter more
reactive cars would win.

In the dry the sheer horsepower made things more balanced

--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

On 02/11/2024 22:58, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 21:30:39 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 2 Nov 2024 19:25:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> The Corvettes rules the straights but would get passed by Minis in the
>>> corners.
>>
>> Presumably those were Mini Coopers, not the regular Leyland Minis.
>> Regular Leyland engines were even worse than USian ones.
>
> Yes, Mini Coopers, probably the S variant. The B class Corvettes would
> disappear on the straight leaving the Minis motoring along placidly. Then
> came the turns. Different classes so they weren't racing each other but it
> was amusing.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lime_Rock_Park
>
> It's a short track so handling trumps sheer power. I never went to a name
> brand race there. These were local SCCA races, many of the entries being
> run what you brung. The group I went with ran a Super Seven with a
> Cosworth engine so it was trailered. I won't say the car never saw a
> public road but it wasn't street legal by any stretch. The track really
> favored the Sevens. Not a lot of top speed but their acceleration would
> still be acceptable today. Just as well the top speeds were limited; the
> clamshell fenders tended to flap like a crow at speed.
>
> I think my Toyota hatch is more in the spirit of the original Minis than
> the pricey BMW versions. It's used for club racing in Japan and doesn't do
> badly around corners even without a few TRD trinkets.

One that did well here was the Renault 4. More lean than a drunken
Irishman, but it still kept its tyres on the road.

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 02/11/2024 19:32, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024 11:18:05 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Americans aren't really that good at inventing stuff.
>>
>> What they are good at is taking a design and throwing money at it to
>> create a mass produced product that will sell to an enormous marketplace
>> that all speaks the same language. Mostly.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_inventions
>
> We've come up with a few things, like cupcakes and candy corn.

The point is you don't actually *need* to come up with anything. Let
Europe and Japan do the hard thinky stuff, and then just buy the rights
to the technology once it looks like working.

Who did Bill Gates buy MSDOS from?

--
"In our post-modern world, climate science is not powerful because it is
true: it is true because it is powerful."

Lucas Bergkamp

On 03/11/2024 00:01, rbowman wrote:
> Indians are as racist as whites so the
> half-breeds don't get on the rolls and they may not be accepted by the
> whites either.

That sentence could have been written in the early 20th century about
India as well as the USA.

--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Sir Roger Scruton

On 02/11/2024 21:01, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 02/11/2024 10:40, D wrote:
>>> I'd like the experience of crossing the ocean to be more like a
>>> cruise ship. It might take 1 to 3 days or so, but you could walk
>>> around, and enjoy a Michelin star restaurant on board.
>>
>> Not in an airship. What you want is a nuclear powered passenger liner.
>>
>> Weight no problem. Massive horsepower no problem. Should be able to
>> cruise over 50mph.
>>
>> So probably 2 days to make the trip.
>
> If you have the money, let's do it! ;) How does the economics of nuclear
> powered vs diesel powered look?

Oh, its competitive. Once the reactor is built, fuel costs are trivial.,
Its all cost of capital and maintenance. Its possible that the reactor
might have a 'lifetimes supply' of fuel from the get go.

The real problem is international anti-nuclear outcries . US built a
ship - the NS (nuclear ship) Savannah - but many people would let it
dock. It wasn't cost competitive then, due mainly to its novelty and the
need for specialist crew that needed training, but with today's oil
prices it would be.

One of the advantages of nuclear is that fuel costs are so small as to
be irrelevant that the highest feasible speed is also the most
profitable, allowing more passenger miles per year, which means a
better return on investment the faster it goes.

Russia has a lot (7 IIRC) of nuclear powered icebreakers. So the
technology exists.
And nuclear submarines account for around 400 estimated nuclear vessels,
and the US has aircraft carriers and other craft powered that way.

The UK is also interested...

https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/british-navy-considers-nuclear-powered-surface-ships

....This is a neat report on the economics of nuclear powered bulk carriers.

https://world-nuclear-news.org/articles/new-study-considers-nuclear-powered-bulk-carriers

Like nuclear reactors for big data. the interest in nuclear ships is
coming from people with deep enough pockets to buy political support.

That offsets the political support for green tech bought by equally deep
pocketed renewable interests.

I put some thoughts down on paper on this some years back.

Nuclear powered electric trains doing 200mph+ would be faster than
aircraft inside the USA because of the lower time spent in the ground
access the aircraft - driving parking security etc etc.

Nuclear powered ships wont break any speed records, but with fuel prices
likely to escalate, a more likely outcome is that if you really need a
face to face with someone the other side of the world, use whatsapp, but
if you want to physically get there, have a leisurely 3-4 day trip. In
comfort.

Using physical packet switched technology on railways (every parcel or
box has a barcoded 'packet protocol' address) and packets and parcels
are automatically sorted by routers onto next hop railway destinations,
with the final 10 miles being done by electric vehicles..

These are the 'we've run out of cheap diesel, gas and AvJet'
technologies that could all work.

I suspect this will all come to pass because it is inevitably the best
way to do stuff in a post fuel world.

Bit by bit as the market dictates.

Nuclear ships are absolutely on the cards right now. Bean counters are
counting, and coming up full of beans.

Ditto for small reactors powering data centres, especially in colder
parts of the world where the waste heat would be valued and the thermal
efficiency slightly higher.

It is pointless to wait for governments. But it is fortunate that
serious money needs serious power and has determined that renewables are
as much use as a wet fart in a desert when it comes to reliable 24x7 power.

--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Sir Roger Scruton

On 02/11/2024 21:03, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 2 Nov 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 02/11/2024 10:44, D wrote:
>>> Really? So indians bought negro slaves? Had no idea! In europe,
>>> indians can do no wrong, and their history is held up as a paragon of
>>> eco-friendly and just, which was crushed by the bad white man.
>>
>> In reality every culture that has agriculture as its base needs a lot
>> of dumb stupid labor till it can afford tractors...and the easy way to
>> get it is to be a warrior, smash a neighbouring tribe and enslave its
>> members. And hold them down by force.
>>
>> Only the advent of Christianity, that promised the enslaved to be
>> especcailly favoured by God, changed that.
>>
>> Saved no end of violence.
>
> I also have sometimes thought that one "super power" of christianity is
> forgiveness and (in theory) an end to family feuds.
>
It was the oil that lubricated the wheels of superpowers. Christianity
superseded tribalism.

It allowed huge number of people to co-operate together in large nations
with a single moral code.

Unlike Islam, it also encouraged free choice and self determination. God
left you the power to decide which path to follow, and there were many
'paths to god' allowed. Well mostly.

> If your ead Njals saga you can see the power of the family feud and how
> damaging it can be to society when more and more people are dragged into
> it.

Well look at Putin. What a pointless senseless war. He isn't afraid of
the afterlife is he?

"Gimme your country"
"Why should I?"
"Because if you don't I'll smash it so you don't have it anymore either"
"What good is that?"
"The next country will surrender immediately"
"That's what Hitler said....and Hirohito"

--
“Ideas are inherently conservative. They yield not to the attack of
other ideas but to the massive onslaught of circumstance"

- John K Galbraith

On 03/11/2024 00:13, rbowman wrote:
> I'm not sure Christianity ever took completely in Germans where 'never
> forget and never forgive' is more likely.

"God may forgive you, but I won't"

That was allegedly said by an American pilot, to a novice first officer.

"Put your trust in God, and Pratt and Whitney" is another famous quite
from the same source, uttered on being told that the route involved no
alternates whatsoever...

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On 02/11/2024 21:07, D wrote:
> In terms of crime of ex-military, another factor could be what they did
> and experienced while in the military, and how well prepare they were to
> enter society again after the military.

A lot of organised crime post WWII was ex military, they basically
having been taught to do it.

Also we had many many tramps (hobos) - ex servicemen suffering from what
we would now call PTSD, that simply couldn't deal with peace time.

Not many came back from war undamaged in some way. If they came back at
all..

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan