On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 22:00:28 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> [Linux is] not trying to take market share from Windows or MacOS ...

It already has. It has gobbled up the entire computing ecosystem, except
for that tiny niche known as the “desktop”.

On Thu, 17 Oct 2024 11:55:10 -0400, DFS wrote:

> ... every Linux user in existence who babbles 'Linux
> won / is winning / will win'.

Even Microsoft has admitted that Linux has won. That’s why it is so
desperately trying to turn Windows into Linux.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 22:00:28 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> [Linux is] not trying to take market share from Windows or MacOS ...
>
>It already has. It has gobbled up the entire computing ecosystem, except
>for that tiny niche known as the “desktop”.

In all seriousness, man, that's just wild talk.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:54:41 -0400, DFS wrote:

> So 100,000 files should be ~6 minutes.

I just did my own test on Linux. First I ran the following command to
create 99998 files with names from 00001.png up to 99998.png:

for i in $(seq 1 99998); do fn=$(printf %0.5d.png $i); touch $fn; done

Time taken: 3 minutes 5 seconds.

Then I ran my renumber-frames Python script from
<https://gitlab.com/ldo/render-useful/> as follows:

renumber-frames move . 1-99998 . 2

This renumbered 99998.png → 99999.png, then 99997.png → 99998.png and
so on down to 00001.png → 00002.png.

Time taken (including terminal output to report what it was doing):
2.5 seconds.

On 10/18/2024 8:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:54:41 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> So 100,000 files should be ~6 minutes.
>
> Try it and see.

No. It takes a long time to delete 100K small files on Windows.

I don't like polluting my system with that much extraneous junk. MS
already puts untold amts of unused, undocumented stuff willy nilly all
over the place in C:\Users\<usr>\AppData and C:\Windows

> This is Dimdows you’re talking about. It doesn’t behave
> like a normal computer OS.

It's a much better user experience than Linux.

And the apps and games are to die for.

Linux can't compete, and it can't be given away. FACTs.

Le 2024-10-19 à 13 h 03, DFS a écrit :
> On 10/18/2024 8:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:54:41 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> So 100,000 files should be ~6 minutes.
>>
>> Try it and see.
>
> No.  It takes a long time to delete 100K small files on Windows.
>
> I don't like polluting my system with that much extraneous junk.  MS
> already puts untold amts of unused, undocumented stuff willy nilly all
> over the place in C:\Users\<usr>\AppData and C:\Windows

I actually had to make a "Personal" folder inside of Documents because
Microsoft and other companies decided they could do whatever they want
with mine.

> > This is Dimdows you’re talking about. It doesn’t behave
> > like a normal computer OS.
>
> It's a much better user experience than Linux.
>
> And the apps and games are to die for.
>
> Linux can't compete, and it can't be given away.  FACTs.

Fact: most of the games run under Linux albeit not all at the same
speed. If using an AMD GPU, the games usually run better in Linux than
in Windows. Regular applications don't run all too well in Linux unless
they aren't too complex.

--
CrudeSausage
Paleoconservative, Catholic, Christ is king.

On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 21:18:58 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 22:00:28 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> [Linux is] not trying to take market share from Windows or MacOS ...
>>
>>It already has. It has gobbled up the entire computing ecosystem, except
>>for that tiny niche known as the “desktop”.
>
> In all seriousness, man, that's just wild talk.

ARM outships x86 something like 30:1, and RISC-V is not far behind.

You were saying?

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 13:03:51 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 10/18/2024 8:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:54:41 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> So 100,000 files should be ~6 minutes.
>>
>> Try it and see.
>
> No. It takes a long time to delete 100K small files on Windows.
>
> I don't like polluting my system with that much extraneous junk.

Gee, that’s too bad. It’s easy to run that kind of test on Linux: create a
temp directory to do all your experimentation in. And then just a simple
“rm -rf” afterwards, and all the “extraneous junk” is gone.

Seems like you’re admitting that, on Dimdows, getting rid of the after-
effects of this “extraneous junk” isn’t so easy ...

>> This is Dimdows you’re talking about. It doesn’t behave like a normal
>> computer OS.
>
> It's a much better user experience than Linux.

Except that it is vulnerable to “extraneous junk” messing up that fragile
“user experience”, as you seem to have admitted.

> And the apps and games are to die for.
>
> Linux can't compete, and it can't be given away. FACTs.

The Steam Deck is eating Windows’ lunch.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 21:18:58 -0400, Joel wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 22:00:28 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> [Linux is] not trying to take market share from Windows or MacOS ...
>>>
>>>It already has. It has gobbled up the entire computing ecosystem, except
>>>for that tiny niche known as the “desktop”.
>>
>> In all seriousness, man, that's just wild talk.
>
>ARM outships x86 something like 30:1, and RISC-V is not far behind.
>
>You were saying?

I'm saying that desktop is not a "niche". How would ARM "outship"
30:1? That's just fuzzy math, AFAICT.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 10/19/2024 6:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 13:03:51 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> On 10/18/2024 8:43 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 10:54:41 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> So 100,000 files should be ~6 minutes.
>>>
>>> Try it and see.
>>
>> No. It takes a long time to delete 100K small files on Windows.
>>
>> I don't like polluting my system with that much extraneous junk.
>
> Gee, that’s too bad. It’s easy to run that kind of test on Linux: create a
> temp directory to do all your experimentation in. And then just a simple
> “rm -rf” afterwards, and all the “extraneous junk” is gone.
>
> Seems like you’re admitting that, on Dimdows, getting rid of the after-
> effects of this “extraneous junk” isn’t so easy ...

I always forget to bypass the Recycle Bin: just hold down Shift + Delete.

temp_txt folder containing 100K text files deleted in about 10 seconds

If you go the Recycle Bin route, it's painfully slow to move the 100K
files to the RB, then even more painfully slow to delete them from RB.
Probably 5 minutes total. Absurd.

> The Steam Deck is eating Windows’ lunch.

There would be no Steam Deck if Valve didn't grow so big and profitable
on the backs of Windows gamers. The GuhNoo/Linux community is a charity
case that has always profited from the enormous installed base of
Windows users funding generations of hardware. Huge volumes of Windows
purchasers since May 1990 allowed vendors to achieve economies of scale
and low hardware prices. Apple or Linux could never have achieved this.

That is all economic fact.

So you're welcome for that cheap HDD and SSD and memory and power supply
I helped make happen by buying hardware to run Windows on for decades.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 18:21:18 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>On Fri, 18 Oct 2024 21:18:58 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>On Wed, 16 Oct 2024 22:00:28 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> [Linux is] not trying to take market share from Windows or MacOS ...
>>>>
>>>>It already has. It has gobbled up the entire computing ecosystem,
>>>>except for that tiny niche known as the “desktop”.
>>>
>>> In all seriousness, man, that's just wild talk.
>>
>>ARM outships x86 something like 30:1, and RISC-V is not far behind.
>>
>>You were saying?
>
> I'm saying that desktop is not a "niche". How would ARM "outship"
> 30:1? That's just fuzzy math, AFAICT.

Yes, in terms of volume, desktop is a “niche”. More ARM chips ship per
year than the entire population of the Earth. And I believe RISC-V is now
in that league, too.

On 17 Oct 2024 18:52:51 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Now VS Code is free an are the extensions.

VS Code is proprietary freeware. If you want the Free version, that’s VS
Codium. And it doesn’t work as well.

I will stay away from VS Code, thank you. I saw some folks trying to run
Jupyter notebooks in it, which supposedly it can do. The real Jupyter
works a whole lot better.

On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:07:23 -0400, DFS wrote:

> temp_txt folder containing 100K text files deleted in about 10 seconds

ldo@theon:hack> mkdir test
ldo@theon:hack> cd test
ldo@theon:test> time for i in $(seq 1 99998); do fn=$(printf %0.5d.png $i); touch $fn; done

real 3m9.451s
user 1m56.907s
sys 1m18.000s

ldo@theon:test> cd ..
ldo@theon:hack> time rm -rf test

real 0m0.817s
user 0m0.060s
sys 0m0.757s

Any questions?

> On 10/19/2024 6:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> The Steam Deck is eating Windows’ lunch.
>
> There would be no Steam Deck if Valve didn't grow so big and profitable
> on the backs of Windows gamers.

You make it sound like Microsoft is letting Linux win out of the
goodness of its heart.

Face it, Windows cannot compete in anything mobile-related.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 01:37:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Yes, in terms of volume, desktop is a “niche”. More ARM chips ship per
> year than the entire population of the Earth. And I believe RISC-V is
> now in that league, too.

With the Pico 2 you get one of each. I'm going to let the dust settle
before I get one of those.

On 20 Oct 2024 02:15:19 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 01:37:47 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Yes, in terms of volume, desktop is a “niche”. More ARM chips ship per
>> year than the entire population of the Earth. And I believe RISC-V is
>> now in that league, too.
>
> With the Pico 2 you get one of each. I'm going to let the dust settle
> before I get one of those.

The Raspberry Pi product family has always been for experimenters and
risk-takers, for those curious about trying new stuff that has never been
done before.

Not a market that Microsoft Windows is at all comfortable with ...

On 10/19/2024 9:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:07:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> temp_txt folder containing 100K text files deleted in about 10 seconds
>
> ldo@theon:hack> mkdir test
> ldo@theon:hack> cd test
> ldo@theon:test> time for i in $(seq 1 99998); do fn=$(printf %0.5d.png $i); touch $fn; done
>
> real 3m9.451s
> user 1m56.907s
> sys 1m18.000s
>
> ldo@theon:test> cd ..
> ldo@theon:hack> time rm -rf test
>
> real 0m0.817s
> user 0m0.060s
> sys 0m0.757s
>
> Any questions?

If you insist: why is bash so slow? YOU could brush YOUR tooth while
waiting for that slug to finish.

On my Win11 AMD 5600G machine, to create and delete 100K files:

WSL Ubuntu bash: 141.2s create, 1.4s delete, 142.6 total (your script)
PowerShell : 21.2s create, 10.5s delete, 31.7 total
Python + cmd : 16.6s create, 6.7s delete, 23.3 total

ouch!

PowerShell
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS D:\temp> md temp_txt
PS D:\temp> cd temp_txt
PS D:\temp\temp_txt> Measure-Command {for($i=1;$i -le
100000;$i++){New-Item "file$i.txt" -ItemType File}}
TotalSeconds : 21.1754938

PS D:\temp\temp_txt> cd..
PS D:\temp> Measure-Command { Remove-Item -Recurse -Force "temp_txt\" }
TotalSeconds : 10.5104128
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: 32 seconds

Windows Python and Windows cmd
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
D:\temp$ md temp_txt

for n in range(100000):
with open('D:\\temp\\temp_txt\\file_' + str(n) + '.txt', 'w') as f:
f.write(str(n))

D:\temp$ ptime python createfiles.py
16.648 seconds

D:\temp$ ptime rd /s /q "temp_txt"
6.705 seconds
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total: 23 seconds

>> On 10/19/2024 6:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>> The Steam Deck is eating Windows’ lunch.
>>
>> There would be no Steam Deck if Valve didn't grow so big and profitable
>> on the backs of Windows gamers.
>
> You make it sound like Microsoft is letting Linux win out of the
> goodness of its heart.

Linux generally can't beat Windows fairly, because it's always been
given away for free. That's how it killed off Unix.

> Face it, Windows cannot compete in anything mobile-related.

Linux cannot compete when people have a choice of what to buy and use.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 04:56:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> The Raspberry Pi product family has always been for experimenters and
> risk-takers, for those curious about trying new stuff that has never
> been done before.
>
> Not a market that Microsoft Windows is at all comfortable with ...

Microsoft had a brief fling with SBCs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netduino

I have a Netduino 2 that looks like an Arduino Uno at first. At the time
it sounded like a good idea. Being an ARM processor I could get
MicroPython running on it and do the requisite blink program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Band_2

was another shot. I've got a Fitbit Charge 6 which is similar. I didn't
want a Dick Tracy Communicator smart watch. The Charge is low profile,
tells the time, and gathers metrics. Google bought Fitbit so it may be
doomed.

It's difficult to predict what MicrosSoft will abandon after seemingly
successful starts.

On 10/20/2024 2:07 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 04:56:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The Raspberry Pi product family has always been for experimenters and
>> risk-takers, for those curious about trying new stuff that has never
>> been done before.
>>
>> Not a market that Microsoft Windows is at all comfortable with ...
>
> Microsoft had a brief fling with SBCs.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netduino
>
> I have a Netduino 2 that looks like an Arduino Uno at first. At the time
> it sounded like a good idea. Being an ARM processor I could get
> MicroPython running on it and do the requisite blink program.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Band_2
>
> was another shot. I've got a Fitbit Charge 6 which is similar. I didn't
> want a Dick Tracy Communicator smart watch. The Charge is low profile,
> tells the time, and gathers metrics. Google bought Fitbit so it may be
> doomed.
>
> It's difficult to predict what MicrosSoft will abandon after seemingly
> successful starts.

Were you ever a member of MS BizSpark? Free to join with a business
email, and you got good deals on software. I belonged for a couple
years at least, until they changed the rules with no warning and kicked
a lot of people out. I remember the way they handled it was rude.

I used to spend a lot on MS software; now very very little.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 16:43:42 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Were you ever a member of MS BizSpark? Free to join with a business
> email, and you got good deals on software. I belonged for a couple
> years at least, until they changed the rules with no warning and kicked
> a lot of people out. I remember the way they handled it was rude.

Not a member of the Communist Party either :) I did the Insiders thing
until the OS failed to update and IT did a clean install.

Other than buying machines with the OS installed I can't remember if I
ever bought a MS product. When I first started doing Windows stuff I
bought the Borland C++ IDE with OWL. I'm pretty sure I segued into the
company's VS 6.0. I installed the Express edition which was good enough
and then the Community, which was more full-featured.

Checking my personal Windows 11 I do have VS Community but I don't even
have SQL Express only Postgres. I was surprised to see Microsoft 365 on
the start menu. It took forever to load and I didn't do anything with it.
Is that some sort of free trial come-on?

On 20 Oct 2024 18:07:01 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 04:56:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The Raspberry Pi product family has always been for experimenters and
>> risk-takers, for those curious about trying new stuff that has never
>> been done before.
>>
>> Not a market that Microsoft Windows is at all comfortable with ...
>
> Microsoft had a brief fling with SBCs.

They also did “Windows 10 IOT Edition” for some earlier version of the
Raspberry Pi.

Doesn’t seem like it’s been a very successful product ...

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 16:43:42 -0400, DFS wrote:

> I used to spend a lot on MS software; now very very little.

Imagine being spurned by the company you have been, and continue to be, so
loyal to.

Unrequited love, much?

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 11:41:10 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 10/19/2024 9:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:07:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 19 Oct 2024 21:07:23 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> temp_txt folder containing 100K text files deleted in about 10 seconds
>>
>> ldo@theon:hack> mkdir test
>> ldo@theon:hack> cd test
>> ldo@theon:test> time for i in $(seq 1 99998); do fn=$(printf %0.5d.png $i); touch $fn; done
>>
>> real 3m9.451s
>> user 1m56.907s
>> sys 1m18.000s
>>
>> ldo@theon:test> cd ..
>> ldo@theon:hack> time rm -rf test
>>
>> real 0m0.817s
>> user 0m0.060s
>> sys 0m0.757s
>>
>> Any questions?
>
> If you insist: why is bash so slow?

That’s an easy one to answer. Do you want me to try it again?

> On my Win11 AMD 5600G machine, to create and delete 100K files:
>
> WSL Ubuntu bash: 141.2s create, 1.4s delete, 142.6 total (your script)
> PowerShell : 21.2s create, 10.5s delete, 31.7 total Python + cmd
> : 16.6s create, 6.7s delete, 23.3 total
>
> ouch!

Going through the Windows filesystem bottleneck, naturally. Try it on
a genuine Linux system, not on WSL2.

By the way, I thought you were scared to try this on your poor,
fragile Dimdows machine, in case something broke?

How’s it holding up so far? Did you have to do a reinstall afterwards?

On 10/20/2024 9:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 16:43:42 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> I used to spend a lot on MS software; now very very little.
>
> Imagine being spurned by the company you have been, and continue to be, so
> loyal to.
>
> Unrequited love, much?

MS doesn't know or care about me, any more than Torvalds does you.

Back in the early 90s I called an MS support number from one of the
manuals in the box, and actually talked to an Access developer.
Nowadays you're more likely to get help online from an unpaid MVP.

A few years ago one MS online support employee asked me what an API was.

On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 23:28:00 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 10/20/2024 9:22 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 16:43:42 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> I used to spend a lot on MS software; now very very little.
>>
>> Imagine being spurned by the company you have been, and continue to be,
>> so loyal to.
>>
>> Unrequited love, much?
>
> MS doesn't know or care about me, any more than Torvalds does you.

I don’t go out of my way to personally give him money, the way you keep
handing money over to Microsoft.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sun, 20 Oct 2024 04:56:45 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> The Raspberry Pi product family has always been for experimenters and
>> risk-takers, for those curious about trying new stuff that has never
>> been done before.
>>
>> Not a market that Microsoft Windows is at all comfortable with ...
>
> Microsoft had a brief fling with SBCs.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.NET_Micro_Framework
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netduino
>
> I have a Netduino 2 that looks like an Arduino Uno at first. At the time
> it sounded like a good idea. Being an ARM processor I could get
> MicroPython running on it and do the requisite blink program.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Band_2
>
> was another shot. I've got a Fitbit Charge 6 which is similar. I didn't
> want a Dick Tracy Communicator smart watch. The Charge is low profile,
> tells the time, and gathers metrics. Google bought Fitbit so it may be
> doomed.

I had a Fitbit, but the Fitbit went tits up after a year.

I started with a Garmin watch, which was small and sleek, but it NEVER
connected to GPS. Then I got a Polar, which was a little ugly but worked well,
though it had to be paired with a smartphone GPS. Then the Fitbit.

Now have an Amazfit Bip which beats the crap out of all of them.

> It's difficult to predict what MicrosSoft will abandon after seemingly
> successful starts.

The same with Google. I liked Google+ ... then, poof!

This guy hated Google+:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZNHuFjnmUo

Francis HATES Google+

--
(Presuming for the sake of argument that it's even *possible* to design
better code in Perl than in C. :-)
-- Larry Wall on core code vs. module code design