On 11 Jul 2024 03:54:51 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> According to Arm, uppercase ARM is not a correct use of the trademark
> but they have an uphill fight in their hands.

I suspect (IANAL) that they made the seemingly perverse decision to switch
to the name “Arm” instead of “ARM” precisely so that they could claim it
doesn’t mean or stand for anything. Otherwise it can’t be trademarked.

On 11 Jul 2024 03:48:11 GMT, vallor wrote:

> When the iPhone came out, I already had a "smartphone" -- a Palm Treo.

I'm not positive I even had a cellphone when the iPhone came out. When my
brother's health started to fail I finally got one, a flip phone that
definitely wasn't smart. When 3G bit the dust I finally moved to a Nokia
4.2 so I guess that waS 2019. It's still going strong.

I can't remember if I had a PDA when they were all the thing. If I did it
obviously wasn't very memorable.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 05:56:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> I suspect (IANAL) that they made the seemingly perverse decision to
> switch to the name “Arm” instead of “ARM” precisely so that they could
> claim it doesn’t mean or stand for anything. Otherwise it can’t be
> trademarked.

Trademarks like that mystify me. Both arm and cortex are common words.
Savage came out with a low cost rifle that originally was called Edge.
There was a challenge so they renamed it Axis.

I don't remember the context when the Maine Potato Growers defended MPG
like a junkyard dog.

On 11 Jul 2024 06:56:59 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Trademarks like that mystify me.

One of the rules seems to be that they mustn’t mean anything.

For example, while the various companies were working on the spec, “DVD”
originally stood for “Digital Video Disc”, then (when they decided it
could handle other kinds of applications besides video) “Digital Versatile
Disc”, and then finally (when they realized they wanted to trademark the
name) nothing at all.

There was also Intel with its first crack at SIMD extensions for x86,
called “MMX” -- originally “Multi-Media eXtensions”, and then, again for
trademark reasons, it changed to officially stand for nothing at all.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 15:52:57 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>> Laptop? Keyboard covers are available. I wore out the ASUS keys long
>> ago,
>> bought a cover. I tried those stick-on keytops, but they were shitty.
>
> No, desktop. I have a new Amazon Basics leaning against the Fedora box and
> am too lazy to plug it into the KVM.
>
> A friend was a quadriplegic but had enough arm movement that he could type
> with some custom made splints that held pencils eraser end down. The
> erasers would wear our but pencils are cheap. Almost every cap on his
> keyboard was worn off. No problem for him but if he was remoted in and
> asked me to do something he couldn't do remotely I had to grab an intact
> keyboard to use for reference.

One day I came into work to find that one of the wags I worked with had pried
all the keys off my ergonomic keyboard.

Took awhile to get 'em back on right.

(This was the same guy who ambushed me and taped me into my chair.
And then the company VP walked in. :-D

> When i was in high school the shop/business kids took Spanish and typing.
> The college entrance types took Latin and spherical trig. Guess which
> would have been a lot more useful throughout my life.

I took Spanish and typing and our high-school trig and calculus classes.
Only remnants remain, and my typing is weird but effective.

--
I've touch'd the highest point of all my greatness;
And from that full meridian of my glory
I haste now to my setting. I shall fall,
Like a bright exhalation in the evening
And no man see me more.
-- Shakespeare

Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 15:52:57 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>>
>>> Laptop? Keyboard covers are available. I wore out the ASUS keys long
>>> ago,
>>> bought a cover. I tried those stick-on keytops, but they were shitty.
>>
>> No, desktop. I have a new Amazon Basics leaning against the Fedora box and
>> am too lazy to plug it into the KVM.
>>
>> A friend was a quadriplegic but had enough arm movement that he could type
>> with some custom made splints that held pencils eraser end down. The
>> erasers would wear our but pencils are cheap. Almost every cap on his
>> keyboard was worn off. No problem for him but if he was remoted in and
>> asked me to do something he couldn't do remotely I had to grab an intact
>> keyboard to use for reference.
>
> One day I came into work to find that one of the wags I worked with had pried
> all the keys off my ergonomic keyboard.
>
> Took awhile to get 'em back on right.
>
> (This was the same guy who ambushed me and taped me into my chair.
> And then the company VP walked in. :-D
>
>> When i was in high school the shop/business kids took Spanish and typing.
>> The college entrance types took Latin and spherical trig. Guess which
>> would have been a lot more useful throughout my life.
>
> I took Spanish and typing and our high-school trig and calculus classes.
> Only remnants remain, and my typing is weird but effective.
>
i type with one finger and i have to look

vallor wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 11 Jul 2024 03:26:11 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in
> <lf91mjF79ghU1@mid.individual.net>:
>
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:27:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Wrong way round. Think of how, when Android appeared, most of the
>>> developers were on Apple’s platform. Android stole the momentum by
>>> appealing to users: even without the much more extensive app base of
>>> the Iplatform, the greater versatility and capabilities of Android
>>> phones won the users over, and the developers were, reluctantly,
>>> dragged into following.
>>
>> That was a little different. The first iPhone came out early in 2007 and
>> the Open Handset Alliance was formed in November. The easiest way to
>> describe the OHA was almost everybody that wasn't Apple and wanted a
>> part of the action, starting with Google. Palm and Blackberry got left
>> in the dust.
>>
>> Microsoft had the Pocket PC and should have been a player but somehow
>> missed the boat. Speaking of missing the boat:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto
>>
>> I have one that I bought in '93. I don't think it lasted a year in the
>> Compaq lineup. So close...
>>
>> At one point we attempted to do an iPhone app using Xamarin and the
>> codebase we had developed for Android devices. Despite being a
>> proprietary app that was useless without a connection to our backend
>> CAD server we had to go through all the Apple hoops. Eventually we said
>> screw it. Apple has a way of discouraging developers and that doesn't
>> help their market share. Even now developers are battling the bite Apple
>> wants out of any money flowing through their fingers. They fully
>> understand the concept of mordida.
>
> When the iPhone came out, I already had a "smartphone" -- a Palm Treo.

We got Palm Pixies. One troll here called it "doomed" (it was right).
But it was a nice little phone with a decent library of apps.
Then HP bought it and guess what happened.

> I was waiting for a WebOS phone to come out for Verizon, but instead,
> out came the "Droid". I ended up getting one. Now I have a Pixel 7 Pro.

Once this iPhone bags it, I'm back to Android. Moto? Pixel? Samsung?
One Plus?

--
You feel a whole lot more like you do now than you did when you used to.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 11:58:33 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> I took Spanish and typing and our high-school trig and calculus classes.
> Only remnants remain, and my typing is weird but effective.

Trig was standard but when I took calculus it was a special program taight
after normal hours by a college professor from the college across the
street so it was essentially RPI's first semester calculus using Thomas as
the text. A prerequisite was a summer linear course.

I'm surprised calculus has become more of a mainstream high school course.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On 10 Jul 2024 01:56:18 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Consumers have short attention spans but some of them may remember
>> Windows RT, the last go around with an ARM architecture.
>
>Certainly the current effort isn’t quite as crap as Windows RT, but let’s
>face it: that’s damning with faint praise.

It's a red herring, at best, rbowman is comparing apples and oranges
ginormously. The laptop I showed is a full Win11 system. This is
going mainstream.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>> advantages for laptops.
>
>It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.

I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
something equivalent to that. They can remake how game code is
interpreted. It's guaranteed to happen to produce superior devices.
Everyone loves a brand new Alienware laptop. But it is sentenced to
death on its inception, as an Intel or AMD-based device.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 15:25:05 -0400, Joel wrote:

> The laptop I showed is a full Win11 system. This is going
> mainstream.

Only if customers buy it in large numbers. Remember, users don’t buy
Microsoft Windows for fun, they buy it because they need it to get work
done.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 15:25:05 -0400, Joel wrote:

> It's a red herring, at best, rbowman is comparing apples and oranges
> ginormously. The laptop I showed is a full Win11 system. This is going
> mainstream.

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-arm-based-pcs-
faq-477f51df-2e3b-f68f-31b0-06f5e4f8ebb5

"Yes, you can install and run most Windows apps on Windows 11 Arm-based
PCs just as you would on other Windows 11 PCs. Apps do not need to come
from the Microsoft Store in Windows.

Apps that have been rebuilt for Windows Arm-based PCs will have the best
performance. Many of the top Windows apps have been rebuilt for Windows
Arm-based PCs already and more are on the way.

Other apps that have not been built for Windows Arm-based PCs will run
seamlessly using emulation. Windows 11 Arm-based PCs running Windows 11
24H2 include the Prism emulator for improved performance for emulated
applications. "

How many times have you heard 'I would run Linux but my utterly necessary
<insert app or game here> doesn't work? 'Most' is a loaded word, along
with 'best performance'.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> The laptop I showed is a full Win11 system. This is going
>> mainstream.
>
>Only if customers buy it in large numbers. Remember, users don’t buy
>Microsoft Windows for fun, they buy it because they need it to get work
>done.

It's both. The same device can do both. Linux can, too. So what?
The point is, you don't need CISC/x86/IntelAMD. Even games can
utilize this gear, if they develop a pseudo-machine code that can run
on top of the RISC CPU. My next desktop will have an ARM chip.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

>> It's a red herring, at best, rbowman is comparing apples and oranges
>> ginormously. The laptop I showed is a full Win11 system. This is going
>> mainstream.
>
>https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-arm-based-pcs-
>faq-477f51df-2e3b-f68f-31b0-06f5e4f8ebb5
>
>"Yes, you can install and run most Windows apps on Windows 11 Arm-based
>PCs just as you would on other Windows 11 PCs. Apps do not need to come
>from the Microsoft Store in Windows.
>
>Apps that have been rebuilt for Windows Arm-based PCs will have the best
>performance. Many of the top Windows apps have been rebuilt for Windows
>Arm-based PCs already and more are on the way.
>
>Other apps that have not been built for Windows Arm-based PCs will run
>seamlessly using emulation. Windows 11 Arm-based PCs running Windows 11
>24H2 include the Prism emulator for improved performance for emulated
>applications. "
>
>How many times have you heard 'I would run Linux but my utterly necessary
><insert app or game here> doesn't work? 'Most' is a loaded word, along
>with 'best performance'.

This is simply a matter of dominoes falling, ARM will supplant x86,
it's over as I said in the Subject line, they will put everything on
this hardware. I would never buy another x86 machine, but the one I
have could probably remain useful for a long time.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 2024-07-11 3:37 p.m., Joel wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>>> advantages for laptops.
>>
>> It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>> on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>> work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>> return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.
>
>
> I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
> something equivalent to that. They can remake how game code is
> interpreted. It's guaranteed to happen to produce superior devices.
> Everyone loves a brand new Alienware laptop. But it is sentenced to
> death on its inception, as an Intel or AMD-based device.

Most gaming laptops stay with their original owner for two years. If, at
some point, the x86-64 becomes too much of a burden, the gamer doesn't
mind spending another two or three thousand to get a better machine.

--
WittySausage

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:55:17 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> The laptop I showed is a full Win11 system. This is going mainstream.
>>
>>Only if customers buy it in large numbers. Remember, users don’t buy
>>Microsoft Windows for fun, they buy it because they need it to get work
>>done.
>
> It's both. The same device can do both.

But can ARM do it better than x86? Not according to current real-world
tests.

> Linux can, too. So what?

Linux is already at home in the ARM world. Windows is not.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:57:34 -0400, Joel wrote:

> This is simply a matter of dominoes falling ...

That’s not how the market works. There has to be an out-of-the-box reason
for users to prefer to buy the new machines, regardless of the shortage of
apps, then the developers will follow.

That reason still isn’t there.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:57:34 -0400, Joel wrote:

> This is simply a matter of dominoes falling, ARM will supplant x86, it's
> over as I said in the Subject line, they will put everything on this
> hardware. I would never buy another x86 machine, but the one I have
> could probably remain useful for a long time.

You have hit on one of the problems.

https://www.windowscentral.com/software-apps/windows-11/windows-10-still-
has-more-than-double-the-market-share-of-windows-11-and-that-doesnt-look-
like-it-will-change-any-time-soon

"Windows 11 continues to lag behind Windows 10 in terms of market share.
The latest figures from StatCounter state Windows 10 has a 67.23% market
share, while Windows 11 only has a market share of 28.18%."

Consider what that means. Windows 11 came out in 2021 and presumably any
computer purchased since then would have Windows 11 preinstalled. I bought
my laptop in 2020 with Windows 10 and have upgraded it to 11. The only
reason was IT forced all the work machines to be upgraded and I figured I
might as well otherwise I would still be in the 67%. I have no reason to
buy a laptop in the near future.

To get back on point, this means 67% of the computers were probably
purchased prior to 2021. The people aren't moving to Windows 11 although
many of the machine are capable and they aren't buying new machines. What
they have presently meets their needs.

So, what is the compelling reason to buy a new machine, particularly with
an unproven version of Windows running on unproven hardware? So far the
ARM64 API is tailored for the Broadcomm Snapdragon so the performance
across the few vendors (Microsoft, Samsung, and Lenovo) will be similar.
They all will be struggling for market share. Will anyone else get in the
game in 2025 if the pioneers have lackluster sales? Will the profit
margins be there? Is ARM64 and high end an oxymoron?

I don't know. There are a lot of hail mary passes in play to stimulate
sales after the covid bump but in a tight economy there has to be a
reason. So far Microsoft's AI is being met with a yawn in the enterprise
users. Will new laptops save the day?

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 18:55:17 -0400, Joel wrote:

> It's both. The same device can do both. Linux can, too. So what? The
> point is, you don't need CISC/x86/IntelAMD. Even games can utilize this
> gear, if they develop a pseudo-machine code that can run on top of the
> RISC CPU. My next desktop will have an ARM chip.

I've got you beat. I already have an ARM chip dangling from my desktop :)

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 19:42:43 -0400, WittySausage wrote:

> Most gaming laptops stay with their original owner for two years. If, at
> some point, the x86-64 becomes too much of a burden, the gamer doesn't
> mind spending another two or three thousand to get a better machine.

So far the Broadcomm Snapdragon X Elite isn't even in the running. Low
power consumption and a high end gaming machine are mutually exclusive.

On 12 Jul 2024 00:55:01 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I've got you beat. I already have an ARM chip dangling from my desktop
> :)

But not running Windows, is it?

On 12 Jul 2024 00:48:06 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> So far the ARM64 API is tailored for the [Qualcomm] Snapdragon so the
> performance across the few vendors (Microsoft, Samsung, and Lenovo) will
> be similar.

That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of
ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.

On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 15:37:42 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run on Windows-for-ARM.
>
> I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
> something equivalent to that.

Not the lower-level stuff like game anti-cheat. That cannot be emulated:
it has to be done in CPU-native code.

WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> wrote:
>On 2024-07-11 3:37 p.m., Joel wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>>>> advantages for laptops.
>>>
>>> It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>>> on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>>> work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>>> return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.
>>
>> I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
>> something equivalent to that. They can remake how game code is
>> interpreted. It's guaranteed to happen to produce superior devices.
>> Everyone loves a brand new Alienware laptop. But it is sentenced to
>> death on its inception, as an Intel or AMD-based device.
>
>Most gaming laptops stay with their original owner for two years. If, at
>some point, the x86-64 becomes too much of a burden, the gamer doesn't
>mind spending another two or three thousand to get a better machine.

It could be unnecessary to replace hardware so frequently, with ARM.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 01:01:17 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 12 Jul 2024 00:55:01 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> I've got you beat. I already have an ARM chip dangling from my desktop
>> :)
>
> But not running Windows, is it?

Hell no. Some are running MicroPython and the others are running mbed.