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comp / comp.os.linux.advocacy / Re: It's over

SubjectAuthor
* It's overJoel
+* Re: It's overrbowman
|`- Re: It's overJoel
+* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|`* Re: It's overJoel
| +- Re: ??????????????It's over??????????????Joel
| +* Re: It's overrbowman
| |+* Re: It's overChris Ahlstrom
| ||+* Re: It's overrbowman
| |||`* Re: It's overChris Ahlstrom
| ||| +* Re: It's over%
| ||| |`* Re: It's overChris Ahlstrom
| ||| | +- Re: It's over%
| ||| | `* Re: It's overcandycanearter07
| ||| |  `* Re: It's overChris Ahlstrom
| ||| |   `- Re: It's overcandycanearter07
| ||| `- Re: It's overrbowman
| ||`- Re: It's overcandycanearter07
| |`* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
| | `* Re: It's overrbowman
| |  +- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
| |  `* Re: It's overvallor
| |   +- Re: It's overrbowman
| |   `- Re: It's overChris Ahlstrom
| `* Re: It's overJoel
|  +* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|  |`* Re: It's overJoel
|  | +- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|  | `* Re: It's overrbowman
|  |  `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|  |   `- Re: It's overrbowman
|  `* Re: It's overrbowman
|   `* Re: It's overJoel
|    +- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|    +* Re: It's overrbowman
|    |`* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|    | `* Re: It's overchrisv
|    |  `* Re: It's overJoel
|    |   +* Re: It's overDFS
|    |   |`- Re: It's over%
|    |   `- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|    `* Re: It's overDFS
|     +- Re: It's overJoel
|     `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|      `* Re: It's overJoel
|       +* Re: It's overrbowman
|       |+* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|       ||`* Re: It's overrbowman
|       || +* Re: It's overJoel
|       || |`- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|       || `- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|       |`* Re: It's overcandycanearter07
|       | `* Re: It's overrbowman
|       |  `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|       |   `* Re: It's overrbowman
|       |    `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|       |     `* Re: It's overrbowman
|       |      `- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|       `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|        `* Re: It's overJoel
|         `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|          `* Re: It's overJoel
|           +* Re: It's overrbowman
|           |+* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           ||`* Re: It's overcandycanearter07
|           || `* Re: It's overrbowman
|           ||  `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           ||   `* Re: It's overrbowman
|           ||    `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           ||     +* Re: It's overRonB
|           ||     |+* Re: It's overvallor
|           ||     ||`- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           ||     |`- Re: It's overrbowman
|           ||     `- Re: It's overrbowman
|           |`* Re: It's overJoel
|           | `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |  `* Re: It's overJoel
|           |   +* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |   |`* Re: It's overJoel
|           |   | `- Re: It's overrbowman
|           |   `* Re: It's overrbowman
|           |    +- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |    `* Re: It's overChris Ahlstrom
|           |     `* Re: It's overrbowman
|           |      +* Re: It's overDFS
|           |      |`- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |      `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |       `* Re: It's overrbowman
|           |        `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |         `* Re: It's overrbowman
|           |          `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|           |           `- Re: It's overRonB
|           `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|            `* Re: It's overJoel
|             `* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
|              `* Re: It's overJoel
|               `- Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro
+* Re: It's overDFS
|+- Re: It's overJoel
|+* Re: It's overDFS
||`* Re: It's overWittySausage
|`* Re: It's overrbowman
+- Re: It's overWittySausage
`* Re: It's overLawrence D'Oliveiro

Pages:1234567
Subject: It's over
From: Joel
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 05:12 UTC
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!usenet.blueworldhosting.com!diablo1.usenet.blueworldhosting.com!peer03.iad!feed-me.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!s1-3.netnews.com!news-out.netnews.com!postmaster.netnews.com!us11.netnews.com!not-for-mail
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X-Complaints-To: support@blocknews.net
From: joelcrump@gmail.com (Joel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: It's over
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2024 01:12:22 -0400
Message-ID: <0ihp8jdk8mhdnv38hpprqm1c6p4sk7a16b@4ax.com>
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https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9345-laptop/usexchbts9345hchl

Snapdragon® X Elite, X1E-80-100 (12 cores up to 3.4 GHz Dual-Core
Boost up to 4 GHz, NPU integrated)

Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 05:50 UTC
References: 1
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 9 Jul 2024 05:50:51 GMT
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On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 01:12:22 -0400, Joel wrote:

> https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/
spd/xps-13-9345-laptop/usexchbts9345hchl
>
> Snapdragon® X Elite, X1E-80-100 (12 cores up to 3.4 GHz Dual-Core Boost
> up to 4 GHz, NPU integrated)
>
>
> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.

Don't count AMD out. Qualcomm has a one year grace period due to the
agreement with Microsoft.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/intels-ceo-doesnt-seem-worried-
about-arm-chips-from-qualcomm-nvidia-or-amd/

Intel may be playing another game.

https://www.edn.com/faraday-to-manufacture-64-bit-arm-processor-on-
intel-1-8-nm-node/

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Joel
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 06:11 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!border-4.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.netnews.com!postmaster.netnews.com!us11.netnews.com!not-for-mail
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X-Complaints-To: support@blocknews.net
From: joelcrump@gmail.com (Joel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2024 02:11:19 -0400
Message-ID: <qtkp8jdcfvnntungamur8b2gevd4kp4j9i@4ax.com>
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rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

>> https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/
>spd/xps-13-9345-laptop/usexchbts9345hchl
>>
>> Snapdragon® X Elite, X1E-80-100 (12 cores up to 3.4 GHz Dual-Core Boost
>> up to 4 GHz, NPU integrated)
>>
>>
>> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.
>
>Don't count AMD out. Qualcomm has a one year grace period due to the
>agreement with Microsoft.
>
>https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/10/intels-ceo-doesnt-seem-worried-
>about-arm-chips-from-qualcomm-nvidia-or-amd/
>
>Intel may be playing another game.
>
>https://www.edn.com/faraday-to-manufacture-64-bit-arm-processor-on-
>intel-1-8-nm-node/

Intel and AMD can get into making ARM processors, sure, but their x86-
based platform is dead in the water. And I know, CISC is still
relevant in gaming, well, they'll just use what we think of as
emulation, an interpreter, rather than raw compiled machine language
on ARM. They could base it on the x86 instruction set.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 07:12 UTC
References: 1
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 07:12:21 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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On Tue, 09 Jul 2024 01:12:22 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.

Not for Windows, it isn’t. Even with the latest emulation, ARM still
cannot offer the price/performance value proposition to dissuade
customers from x86.

Here
<https://www.computerworld.com/article/2510219/qualcomm-snapdragon-arm-copilot-plus-pcs-business-apps.html>
is a good summary of the current state of play.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Joel
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 12:11 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!border-4.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.netnews.com!postmaster.netnews.com!us11.netnews.com!not-for-mail
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X-Complaints-To: support@blocknews.net
From: joelcrump@gmail.com (Joel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2024 08:11:06 -0400
Message-ID: <32aq8jl4eebigeosqerk5pdqv6tevtotav@4ax.com>
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Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.
>
>Not for Windows, it isn’t. Even with the latest emulation, ARM still
>cannot offer the price/performance value proposition to dissuade
>customers from x86.
>
>Here
><https://www.computerworld.com/article/2510219/qualcomm-snapdragon-arm-copilot-plus-pcs-business-apps.html>
>is a good summary of the current state of play.

Yeah, at this second, but that is going to change very rapidly. Apps
will be compiled for ARM natively, even gaming will get engineered for
it, it's just better hardware, its time is overdue in coming, really.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Subject: Re: ??????????????It's over??????????????
From: Joel
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 14:22 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!border-4.nntp.ord.giganews.com!border-1.nntp.ord.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.netnews.com!postmaster.netnews.com!us11.netnews.com!not-for-mail
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X-Complaints-To: support@blocknews.net
From: joelcrump@gmail.com (Joel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: ??????????????It's over??????????????
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2024 10:22:22 -0400
Message-ID: <7khq8jh62m35va74voav0b6am3und2m0qo@4ax.com>
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??????????Jen?????????? Dershmender ????????????????????
<root@127.0.0.1> wrote:

>=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= that [the market for PC hardware] is going to change very rapidly. Apps
>=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= will be compiled for ARM natively, even gaming will get engineered for
>=?UTF-8?B?8J+Ps++4j+KAjfCfjIg=?= it, it's just better hardware, its time is overdue in coming, really.
>
>The average user is never going to have a need to run to switch to ARM architecture on all of their PCs and/or servers, unless they actually need a new machine due to TBF calculations, hitting a performance scaling limit, or actual hardware obsolescence in the sense that you cannot find any replacement parts anymore.
>
>I'm running several x86 systems that are over two decades old.

I'm not planning to get a new machine, for a long time, in fact,
that's not the point. My 10th gen i5 will be serviceable with Linux
for years. But new hardware is going to *rapidly* go toward ARM, mark
my words.

>Gamers like you

Which I'm not, you're just being a rambling fool like usual.

> wasting watts and increasing your carbon footprint doing absolutely nothing productive might not be the industry driving force that you think it is. It's simply one of many popular applications of technology available to laypersons.

Word salad, as usual, from you.

>The people doing scientific research with supercomputers, clusters, and namely particle physics and protein-folding simulation are who the tech is actually for, and who is ultimately behind the demand for more computing power.
>
>HTH

It helped to demonstrate your half-wittedness, sure.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: DFS
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:02 UTC
References: 1
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Subject: Re: It's over
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On 7/9/2024 1:12 AM, Joel wrote:

> https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9345-laptop/usexchbts9345hchl
>
> Snapdragon® X Elite, X1E-80-100 (12 cores up to 3.4 GHz Dual-Core
> Boost up to 4 GHz, NPU integrated)
>
>
> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.

....in the countless thousands.

Because neither offers enough (if any) advantage over the
long-entrenched technology, ARM will NEVER displace x86_64, and Linux
will NEVER displace Windows.

But like your bruthas say: "Keep hope alive!"

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Joel
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2024 17:44 UTC
References: 1 2
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From: joelcrump@gmail.com (Joel)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2024 13:44:05 -0400
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DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:

>> https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9345-laptop/usexchbts9345hchl
>>
>> Snapdragon® X Elite, X1E-80-100 (12 cores up to 3.4 GHz Dual-Core
>> Boost up to 4 GHz, NPU integrated)
>>
>>
>> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.
>
>...in the countless thousands.
>
>Because neither offers enough (if any) advantage over the
>long-entrenched technology, ARM will NEVER displace x86_64, and Linux
>will NEVER displace Windows.
>
>But like your bruthas say: "Keep hope alive!"

You're showing your lack of perception, you think ARM can't replace
x86 for specific functions, I bet otherwise. They'll reimagine how to
code games. They don't need the metal to handle it all. You're gonna
see Alienware with ARM. As for the OS wars, in context, Linux will be
an option just as it is with x86.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: WittySausage
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: usenet-news.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 16:51 UTC
References: 1 2 3
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Subject: Re: It's over
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On 2024-07-10 12:46 p.m., Joel wrote:
> WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> wrote:
>
>>> https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-computer-laptops/new-xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9345-laptop/usexchbts9345hchl
>>>
>>> Snapdragon® X Elite, X1E-80-100 (12 cores up to 3.4 GHz Dual-Core
>>> Boost up to 4 GHz, NPU integrated)
>>>
>>>
>>> Intel/AMD, your days are numbered.
>>
>> Only among the people who prioritize battery life over pure power.
>> Gamers will proboably continue with the x86-64 platform.
>
>
> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
> advantages for laptops.

Agreed. On my side, the next gaming laptop purchase will definitely be
one with an ARM processor. However, I will require it to have a GPU
capable of running whatever game is thrown at it. Whether the Snapdragon
itself will be able to handle that kind of work remains to be seen. The
most likely configuration will be Snapdragon + RTX of some sort.

--
WittySausage

Subject: Re: It's over
From: DFS
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 17:14 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nospam@dfs.com (DFS)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:14:54 -0400
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On 7/10/2024 12:58 AM, Tyrone wrote:
> On Jul 9, 2024 at 1:02:20 PM EDT, "DFS" <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>
>> Because neither offers enough (if any) advantage over the
>> long-entrenched technology, ARM will NEVER displace x86_64, and Linux
>> will NEVER displace Windows.
>
> What are you talking about? Arm (not ARM) has already displaced Intel. There
> are 7 billion phones in use and none of them are Intel.

phones? wtf?

> Remember the "chip> shortages" a few years ago? It was all Intel shit
for Windows PCs. Because no
> new Intel factories are being built. Meanwhile, Apple was shipping record
> numbers of Arm based products. Because there are LOADS of Arm factories.
>
> Android (Linux) is already the most used OS on the planet. Unix/Linux is used
> on everything from mainframes to watches. Everything Apple sells is running
> Unix. Macs, iPhones, watches, iPads. All on Arm.
>
> Whereas Windows runs on 1 billion WinTel PCs. Nothing else. No mainframes,
> no watches, no phones.
>
> As Windows (finally) moves to Arm, the last remaining reason for Intel to
> exist goes away. If Intel has any future, it will be building/selling Arm
> chipsets.
>
> Arm is the present and the future. If you still own any Intel stock, you are
> way late to the party. You should have dumped it last year.

drool.

So now Microsoft, AND Intel, AND AMD are doomed.

Linux/Mac idiots sure are a prescient bunch.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: WittySausage
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: usenet-news.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 17:25 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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On 2024-07-10 1:14 p.m., DFS wrote:
> On 7/10/2024 12:58 AM, Tyrone wrote:
>> On Jul 9, 2024 at 1:02:20 PM EDT, "DFS" <nospam@dfs.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Because neither offers enough (if any) advantage over the
>>> long-entrenched technology, ARM will NEVER displace x86_64, and Linux
>>> will NEVER displace Windows.
>>
>> What are you talking about? Arm (not ARM) has already displaced Intel.
>> There
>> are 7 billion phones in use and none of them are Intel.
>
> phones?  wtf?

Yes, portable computers. Whether we want to admit it or not, phones and
tablets are displacing desktops and laptops in terms of popularity.

> > Remember the "chip> shortages" a few years ago? It was all Intel shit
> for Windows PCs. Because no
>> new Intel factories are being built.  Meanwhile, Apple was shipping
>> record
>> numbers of Arm based products.   Because there are LOADS of Arm
>> factories.
>>
>> Android (Linux) is already the most used OS on the planet. Unix/Linux
>> is used
>> on everything from mainframes to watches. Everything Apple sells is
>> running
>> Unix. Macs, iPhones, watches, iPads. All on Arm.
>>
>> Whereas Windows runs on 1 billion WinTel PCs.  Nothing else.  No
>> mainframes,
>> no watches, no phones.
>>
>> As Windows (finally) moves to Arm, the last remaining reason for Intel to
>> exist goes away. If Intel has any future, it will be building/selling Arm
>> chipsets.
>>
>> Arm is the present and the future. If you still own any Intel stock,
>> you are
>> way late to the party. You should have dumped it last year.
>
> drool.
>
>
> So now Microsoft, AND Intel, AND AMD are doomed.
>
> Linux/Mac idiots sure are a prescient bunch.

Considering Intel, Microsoft and AMD could simply decide to make their
own chips to ARM specifications, I don't see how they are doomed. There
is no reason for Microsoft not to choose to take an approach similar to
Apple's.

--
WittySausage

Subject: Re: It's over
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 18:15 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 10 Jul 2024 18:15:45 GMT
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On 10 Jul 2024 11:29:23 GMT, vallor wrote:

> ARM used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine.
>
> Otherwise, I agree with Tyrone's discussion.

I had no problem with his argument only his pedantic correction to 'Arm'.
He can swim against the common industry usage if he wished.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 18:45 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 10 Jul 2024 18:45:43 GMT
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:20:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> So once theres some real momentum, it will be transitioned over?

Building the momentum will be the problem. The initial releases will need
to be really good and excite developers or they will wind up with another
RT/Windows Phone. Personally I like the microprocessors like the nRF52840
or RP2040 based on the Cortex series but they're a long way from a general
purpose consumer laptop/desktop.

>> Supposedly there is a Windows 11 version that will run on the RPo, sort
>> of.
>
>
> RPo?

Note to self: gotta get a new keyboard. I'm in no way a touch typist and
the legend is worn off the adjacent 'o' and 'i' keys.

Raspberry Pi, specifically the 5 with the Broadcom BCM2712 processor.

https://www.broadcom.com/products/embedded-and-networking-processors/
communications/bcm58712

https://www.tomshardware.com/raspberry-pi/we-tried-to-install-windows-11-
on-raspberry-pi-5-lack-of-internet-connectivity-left-us-stuck

Raspberry Pi OS based on Debian is the easiest route but there are several
other options that are a little more realistic that Windows 11.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Chris Ahlstrom
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: None
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 19:52 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: OFeem1987@teleworm.us (Chris Ahlstrom)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 15:52:57 -0400
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rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:20:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:
>
>> So once theres some real momentum, it will be transitioned over?
>
> Building the momentum will be the problem. The initial releases will need
> to be really good and excite developers or they will wind up with another
> RT/Windows Phone. Personally I like the microprocessors like the nRF52840
> or RP2040 based on the Cortex series but they're a long way from a general
> purpose consumer laptop/desktop.
>
>>> Supposedly there is a Windows 11 version that will run on the RPo, sort
>>> of.
>>
>> RPo?
>
> Note to self: gotta get a new keyboard. I'm in no way a touch typist and
> the legend is worn off the adjacent 'o' and 'i' keys.

Laptop? Keyboard covers are available. I wore out the ASUS keys long ago,
bought a cover. I tried those stick-on keytops, but they were shitty.

--
He draweth out the thread of his verbosity finer than the staple of his
argument. -- William Shakespeare, "Love's Labour's Lost"

Subject: Re: It's over
From: WittySausage
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: usenet-news.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 21:32 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
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On 2024-07-10 2:15 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On 10 Jul 2024 11:29:23 GMT, vallor wrote:
>
>> ARM used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine.
>>
>> Otherwise, I agree with Tyrone's discussion.
>
> I had no problem with his argument only his pedantic correction to 'Arm'.
> He can swim against the common industry usage if he wished.

I always thought ARM was an acronym for Advanced RISC Machines. Is that
no longer the case?

--
WittySausage

Subject: Re: It's over
From: vallor
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 21:38 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: vallor@cultnix.org (vallor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 10 Jul 2024 21:38:42 GMT
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 17:32:57 -0400, WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> wrote in
<i6DjO.3052$oGQf.869@fx10.iad>:

> On 2024-07-10 2:15 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2024 11:29:23 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>
>>> ARM used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, I agree with Tyrone's discussion.
>>
>> I had no problem with his argument only his pedantic correction to
>> 'Arm'.
>> He can swim against the common industry usage if he wished.
>
> I always thought ARM was an acronym for Advanced RISC Machines. Is that
> no longer the case?

I think the acronym's meaning changed when Acorn went away.

--
-v ASUS TUF Dash F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile
OS: Linux 5.15.0-113-lowlatency Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 15.9G
"1st Law of Thermodynamics: Go to class!!"

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:27 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:27:18 -0000 (UTC)
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On 10 Jul 2024 18:45:43 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Building the momentum will be the problem. The initial releases will
> need to be really good and excite developers ...

Wrong way round. Think of how, when Android appeared, most of the
developers were on Apple’s platform. Android stole the momentum by
appealing to users: even without the much more extensive app base of the
Iplatform, the greater versatility and capabilities of Android phones won
the users over, and the developers were, reluctantly, dragged into
following.

Windows-on-ARM has nothing like that.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:28 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:28:15 -0000 (UTC)
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 13:25:49 -0400, WittySausage wrote:

> On 2024-07-10 1:14 p.m., DFS wrote:
>>
>> phones?  wtf?
>
> Yes, portable computers.

At least the Android ones are. Apple tries to pretend otherwise.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:29 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:29:30 -0000 (UTC)
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 12:46:35 -0400, Joel wrote:

> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
> advantages for laptops.

It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: WittySausage
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: usenet-news.net
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2024 23:32 UTC
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On 2024-07-10 5:38 p.m., vallor wrote:
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 17:32:57 -0400, WittySausage <witty@sausa.ge> wrote in
> <i6DjO.3052$oGQf.869@fx10.iad>:
>
>> On 2024-07-10 2:15 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>>> On 10 Jul 2024 11:29:23 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>>
>>>> ARM used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, I agree with Tyrone's discussion.
>>>
>>> I had no problem with his argument only his pedantic correction to
>>> 'Arm'.
>>> He can swim against the common industry usage if he wished.
>>
>> I always thought ARM was an acronym for Advanced RISC Machines. Is that
>> no longer the case?
>
> I think the acronym's meaning changed when Acorn went away.

Well, as long as we're all referring to the same thing, we're good.

--
WittySausage

Subject: Re: It's over
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 03:26 UTC
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:27:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Wrong way round. Think of how, when Android appeared, most of the
> developers were on Apple’s platform. Android stole the momentum by
> appealing to users: even without the much more extensive app base of the
> Iplatform, the greater versatility and capabilities of Android phones
> won the users over, and the developers were, reluctantly, dragged into
> following.

That was a little different. The first iPhone came out early in 2007 and
the Open Handset Alliance was formed in November. The easiest way to
describe the OHA was almost everybody that wasn't Apple and wanted a part
of the action, starting with Google. Palm and Blackberry got left in the
dust.

Microsoft had the Pocket PC and should have been a player but somehow
missed the boat. Speaking of missing the boat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto

I have one that I bought in '93. I don't think it lasted a year in the
Compaq lineup. So close...

At one point we attempted to do an iPhone app using Xamarin and the
codebase we had developed for Android devices. Despite being a proprietary
app that was useless without a connection to our backend CAD server we
had to go through all the Apple hoops. Eventually we said screw it. Apple
has a way of discouraging developers and that doesn't help their market
share. Even now developers are battling the bite Apple wants out of any
money flowing through their fingers. They fully understand the concept of
mordida.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: Lawrence D'Oliv
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 03:33 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence D'Oliveiro)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 03:33:21 -0000 (UTC)
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On 11 Jul 2024 03:26:11 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:27:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Wrong way round. Think of how, when Android appeared, most of the
>> developers were on Apple’s platform. Android stole the momentum by
>> appealing to users: even without the much more extensive app base of
>> the Iplatform, the greater versatility and capabilities of Android
>> phones won the users over, and the developers were, reluctantly,
>> dragged into following.
>
> That was a little different. The first iPhone came out early in 2007 and
> the Open Handset Alliance was formed in November.

And the developers flocked primarily to Apple, not to Android. Even years
later, Apple’s platform still had the app advantage. Yet by that time,
Android was already outselling it by a factor of several to one.

> Microsoft had the Pocket PC and should have been a player but somehow
> missed the boat.

You don’t see the point yet? It was users flocking to the platform that
made it successful. The apps came after that.

In order for Windows-on-ARM to succeed, it needs some out-of-the-box
reason to be attractive to users over the existing x86 platform. Then the
apps will follow.

So far, there has been no sign of that.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 03:33 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 11 Jul 2024 03:33:39 GMT
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 15:52:57 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Laptop? Keyboard covers are available. I wore out the ASUS keys long
> ago,
> bought a cover. I tried those stick-on keytops, but they were shitty.

No, desktop. I have a new Amazon Basics leaning against the Fedora box and
am too lazy to plug it into the KVM.

A friend was a quadriplegic but had enough arm movement that he could type
with some custom made splints that held pencils eraser end down. The
erasers would wear our but pencils are cheap. Almost every cap on his
keyboard was worn off. No problem for him but if he was remoted in and
asked me to do something he couldn't do remotely I had to grab an intact
keyboard to use for reference.

When i was in high school the shop/business kids took Spanish and typing.
The college entrance types took Latin and spherical trig. Guess which
would have been a lot more useful throughout my life.

Subject: Re: It's over
From: vallor
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 03:48 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: vallor@cultnix.org (vallor)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 11 Jul 2024 03:48:11 GMT
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On 11 Jul 2024 03:26:11 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote in
<lf91mjF79ghU1@mid.individual.net>:

> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 22:27:18 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Wrong way round. Think of how, when Android appeared, most of the
>> developers were on Apple’s platform. Android stole the momentum by
>> appealing to users: even without the much more extensive app base of
>> the Iplatform, the greater versatility and capabilities of Android
>> phones won the users over, and the developers were, reluctantly,
>> dragged into following.
>
> That was a little different. The first iPhone came out early in 2007 and
> the Open Handset Alliance was formed in November. The easiest way to
> describe the OHA was almost everybody that wasn't Apple and wanted a
> part of the action, starting with Google. Palm and Blackberry got left
> in the dust.
>
> Microsoft had the Pocket PC and should have been a player but somehow
> missed the boat. Speaking of missing the boat:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compaq_Concerto
>
> I have one that I bought in '93. I don't think it lasted a year in the
> Compaq lineup. So close...
>
> At one point we attempted to do an iPhone app using Xamarin and the
> codebase we had developed for Android devices. Despite being a
> proprietary app that was useless without a connection to our backend
> CAD server we had to go through all the Apple hoops. Eventually we said
> screw it. Apple has a way of discouraging developers and that doesn't
> help their market share. Even now developers are battling the bite Apple
> wants out of any money flowing through their fingers. They fully
> understand the concept of mordida.

When the iPhone came out, I already had a "smartphone" -- a Palm Treo.

I was waiting for a WebOS phone to come out for Verizon, but instead,
out came the "Droid". I ended up getting one. Now I have a Pixel 7 Pro.

--
-v ASUS TUF Dash F15 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3060 Mobile
OS: Linux 5.15.0-113-lowlatency Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 15.9G
"Spell chequers dew knot work write."

Subject: Re: It's over
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2024 03:54 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.advocacy
Subject: Re: It's over
Date: 11 Jul 2024 03:54:51 GMT
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On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 17:32:57 -0400, WittySausage wrote:

> On 2024-07-10 2:15 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On 10 Jul 2024 11:29:23 GMT, vallor wrote:
>>
>>> ARM used to stand for Acorn RISC Machine.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, I agree with Tyrone's discussion.
>>
>> I had no problem with his argument only his pedantic correction to
>> 'Arm'.
>> He can swim against the common industry usage if he wished.
>
> I always thought ARM was an acronym for Advanced RISC Machines. Is that
> no longer the case?

It was/is

https://infocenter.nordicsemi.com/index.jsp?
topic=%2Fstruct_nrf52%2Fstruct%2Fnrf52840.html

ARM® Cortex®-M4 32-bit processor with FPU, 64 MHz

https://www.broadcom.com/products/embedded-and-networking-processors/
communications/bcm58712

quad-core 64-bit 2GHz ARM® v8 Cortex®-A57

The first is Nordic Semiconductor's microcontroller that is used in the
Arduino Nano Sense series. The second is the processor that is used in the
Raspberry Pi 5. When it comes to Cortex processors 'M' is the
microcontroller family, 'A' are general purpose, and 'R' are tailored for
real time applications.

https://www.arm.com/company/policies/trademarks/arm-trademark-list/arm-
trademark

According to Arm, uppercase ARM is not a correct use of the trademark but
they have an uphill fight in their hands. Maybe in a decade of so the
companies making Arm® will come around. The name change was in 2017 when
they were bought by the Japanese SoftBank Group. It probably pisses them
of that the company trades as ARM.

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