On Sun, 15 Sep 2024 19:59:12 -0400, DFS wrote:

> On 9/15/2024 7:27 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On 14 Sep 2024 02:09:09 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> I would wish for a more articulate candidate but it's what we've got.
>>
>> All the good democracies offer a realistic choice of more than two
>> parties to vote for.
>
> We have independent candidates.
>
> https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/us/politics/presidential-
candidates-2024.html

At least I got to see the five before the paywall kicked in.

https://twitter.com/DrJillStein/status/1835113522193371330

I follow Stein and apparently the Democrats aren't content with screwing
Bernie and Tulsi but are trying to get the Greens kicked of the ballot.

"PRESS RELEASE: The Montana Libertarian Party strongly condemns the recent
lawsuit filed by the @MTDems aimed at removing the @GreenPartyUS
Senatorial candidate from the ballot. This legal maneuver undermines the
“democratic process” and stifles the voices of voters who deserve a full
spectrum of choices in their elections."

Oddly the Montana LP X account has never uttered the name "Chase Oliver".
I think that was a bridge too far.

If that doesn't work you can always just shoot the opposition. The latest
shooter is connected with the International Volunteer Center in the
Ukraine. That certainly smells like a Christians In Action op.

Then there's West/Abdulla campaign. I was surprised to find they are on
the ballot in 16 states. This isn't one of them.

On 16 Sep 2024 02:18:03 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Democracy: periodically selecting figureheads that aren't going to do
> what they promised by counting noses of people I wouldn't trust to
> reliably feed the cat.

There are countries that do it better than you. Why not learn from them?

On 2024-09-15, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 13 Sep 2024 19:03:47 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Dropping the NUCs may be another of their less than stellar decisions
>> although the marketing wasn't great.
>
> Overpriced attempt to compete with the Raspberry Pi. Intel probably lost
> money on every one they sold.

Not really competing with the Raspberry Pi, NUCs were really just laptops
without screens and keyboards. Much more powerful than the average Raspberry
Pi. I use Dell Micro computers, which are similar in size and specs to the
NUCs. HP has a line of these also. I think the problems with Intel's NUCs
were 1) Intel really isn't set up to be a retailer of computers and 2) they
were competing with their own customers (which is never a good idea).

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-16, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Sep 2024 23:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 13 Sep 2024 19:03:47 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Dropping the NUCs may be another of their less than stellar decisions
>>> although the marketing wasn't great.
>>
>> Overpriced attempt to compete with the Raspberry Pi. Intel probably lost
>> money on every one they sold.
>
> I might go along with overpriced but most variations weren't in the same
> league as the Pi. That's not taking anything away from the Pi but it's a
> whole different game. From the reviews the Pi 5 is almost acceptable as a
> general purpose desktop but that still isn't what its principle purpose
> is.

The original Pi computers that existed when the NUC came out had much lower
specs. I don't know anything about the Pi 5. I do know that, when you start
adding up all the bits and pieces required to make Pi into a usable
computer, they turn to not be all that cheap. If you just want a small
computer, you're better off buying a used Micro computer. I even bought a a
few Wyse smart terminals that are more powerful than Pi computers (for about
$20 to $30 complete). They run Linux well.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:41:26 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> Not really competing with the Raspberry Pi, NUCs were really just
> laptops without screens and keyboards. Much more powerful than the
> average Raspberry Pi. I use Dell Micro computers, which are similar in
> size and specs to the NUCs. HP has a line of these also. I think the
> problems with Intel's NUCs were 1) Intel really isn't set up to be a
> retailer of computers and 2) they were competing with their own
> customers (which is never a good idea).

I bought it in 2020 so it isn't the latest model but the Acer Swift 3
laptop has a AMD Ryzen 7 4700U processor, 8 GB od RAM and a 512 GB NVMe.
The Beelink micro has the same processor but 16 GB of RAM and a 512 NMVe.

https://www.slashgear.com/1655856/underrated-features-upgrades-raspberry-
pi-5/

That lists some of the features of the Pi 5. It now allows using a NMVe
with an optional HAT. Reading between the lines it's a great improvement
on the 4. The 2GB chip was redesigned and requires less power getting
around the fan.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:47:18 -0000 (UTC), RonB wrote:

> The original Pi computers that existed when the NUC came out had much
> lower specs. I don't know anything about the Pi 5. I do know that, when
> you start adding up all the bits and pieces required to make Pi into a
> usable computer, they turn to not be all that cheap. If you just want a
> small computer, you're better off buying a used Micro computer. I even
> bought a a few Wyse smart terminals that are more powerful than Pi
> computers (for about $20 to $30 complete). They run Linux well.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/01/what-i-learned-from-using-a-
raspberry-pi-5-as-my-main-computer-for-two-weeks/

tl;dr summary:

"When Pi CEO Eben Upton calls devices like the Pi 4 and 5 "PC-class," he's
not wrong, especially in the context of early Pi boards, which were truly
impossible to use as regular consumer desktop PCs, even for the most
patient users. But the Pi 5 is a decent PC only for a specific niche of
computer users: people with relatively undemanding workloads and
relatively high levels of expertise. Even with extra power, the limits of
the software ecosystem make the Pi better as a lightweight server or as a
box dedicated to a narrow range of tasks."

On 16 Sep 2024 01:37:59 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 15 Sep 2024 23:25:59 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 13 Sep 2024 19:03:47 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Dropping the NUCs may be another of their less than stellar decisions
>>> although the marketing wasn't great.
>>
>> Overpriced attempt to compete with the Raspberry Pi. Intel probably
>> lost money on every one they sold.
>
> I might go along with overpriced but most variations weren't in the same
> league as the Pi. That's not taking anything away from the Pi but it's a
> whole different game. From the reviews the Pi 5 is almost acceptable as
> a general purpose desktop but that still isn't what its [principal]
> purpose is.

Look at the market that is buying it and doing cool, creative stuff with
it, and there’s your answer.

Look at the market that *isn’t* doing the same with NUC, and there’s the
other part of your answer.

On 17 Sep 2024 00:18:08 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 22:04:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Look at the market that is buying it and doing cool, creative stuff
>> with it, and there’s your answer.
>>
>> Look at the market that *isn’t* doing the same with NUC, and there’s
>> the other part of your answer.
>
> https://community.element14.com/products/raspberry-pi/m/files/148385
>
> How many pins are on the NUC's GPIO header? Oh, I forgot, NUCs don't
> have one because it's a completely different architecture.
>
> There are dogs and there are cats; apparently you cannot tell the
> difference.

So which one is selling, and which one is not? Are you complaining that
the market cannot appreciate Intel’s failed attempt to compete?

On 16 Sep 2024 17:56:12 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/01/what-i-learned-from-using-a-raspberry-pi-5-as-my-main-computer-for-two-weeks/
>
> tl;dr summary:
>
> "But the Pi 5 is a decent PC only for a specific
> niche of computer users: people with relatively undemanding workloads
> and relatively high levels of expertise."

Which is still a much bigger market than Intel was able to manage with the
“NUC”.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

>the last Democrat I might have voted for was Carter

Harris is who we need in the time Trump himself said we're in.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 00:26:39 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> So which one is selling, and which one is not? Are you complaining that
> the market cannot appreciate Intel’s failed attempt to compete?

One more time for the slow people in the audience: the NUC was not
designed to compete with the Pi. Intel's marketing was haphazard and the
units arguably were overpriced. It remains to be seen how well Asus will
do since they bought the NUC brand last year.

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/asus-nuc-14-pro

The recommendation is 'tell them. then tell them what you told them' so

The NUC and other mini-PCs using standard MPUs are aimed at an entirely
different niche than the Pi.

I know you always have to have the last word but I ain't bitin' yo stinky
bait no mo'.

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 21:28:57 -0400, Joel wrote:

> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>>the last Democrat I might have voted for was Carter
>
>
> Harris is who we need in the time Trump himself said we're in.

I don't suppose it matters whose ass is in the White House as we march off
to Armageddon. The only choice is the Democrats will support the war
criminal Zelensky and cut the war criminal Netanyahu loose; the
Republicans will go the other way around.

I'm going to make myself a big bowl of popcorn with real Kerrygold butter,
sit back and watch. It doesn't make a big rat's ass difference in the long
run.

rBowman: I don't suppose it matters whose ass is in the White House
as we march off to Armageddon.

We're all swishing off to hell in a handbasket, the trick is to enjoy it.
I like Team Zelenskyy, you like Team Putin.

rBowman: I'm going to make myself a big bowl of popcorn
with real Kerrygold butter, sit back and watch.

Jalapeno & Cheddar Smoked Sausage here + Mini "Mounds" bars.

On 17 Sep 2024 02:11:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> ... the NUC was not designed to compete with the Pi. Intel's marketing
> was haphazard and the units arguably were overpriced.

So what *was* it designed to compete with?

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 20:49:32 -0700 (Seattle), Relf wrote:

> Jalapeno & Cheddar Smoked Sausage here + Mini "Mounds" bars.

The sausage sounds good but Almond Joys are definitely superior. I think
I've had about 4 trick'or'treaters in 35 years but I alwas get a bag of
candy j.i.c. I make sure I get a selection with Almond Joys, Kit Kats, and
Peanu Butter Cups because I'll be eating the damn things until sometime in
March.

On 2024-09-17, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2024 00:18:08 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 22:04:10 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Look at the market that is buying it and doing cool, creative stuff
>>> with it, and there’s your answer.
>>>
>>> Look at the market that *isn’t* doing the same with NUC, and there’s
>>> the other part of your answer.
>>
>> https://community.element14.com/products/raspberry-pi/m/files/148385
>>
>> How many pins are on the NUC's GPIO header? Oh, I forgot, NUCs don't
>> have one because it's a completely different architecture.
>>
>> There are dogs and there are cats; apparently you cannot tell the
>> difference.
>
> So which one is selling, and which one is not? Are you complaining that
> the market cannot appreciate Intel’s failed attempt to compete?

When you compare NUCs to Raspberry Pi computers, you have to take into
account that Intel had a lot of competition from several retailers selling
micro computers. Raspberry Pi may have outsold Intel NUCS, they certainly
didn't outsell micro computers in general.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On 2024-09-17, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2024 02:11:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> ... the NUC was not designed to compete with the Pi. Intel's marketing
>> was haphazard and the units arguably were overpriced.
>
> So what *was* it designed to compete with?

Desktop computers. Point of Sale computers. A NUC (and its cousins) are
basically laptop computers (without a screen). They're designed to be used
as desktop computers were space is limited. You'll often find them mounted
on the back of monitors in hospitals or medical clinics. In this case
they're used like a smart terminal, but they can be very powerful, small,
quiet, cool-running, stand-alone computers. Just like there can be very
powerful laptops or very simple, under-powered ones.

NUCs are not hobby computers, like the Raspberry Pi(s). I use them as
standard desktop computers. (I'm typing this post on one.) My Dell Optiplex
micro is both cheaper and more powerful than a Raspberry Pi.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

On Mon, 16 Sep 2024 12:41:26 -0000 (UTC), RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com>
wrote in <vc991m$2ratm$2@dont-email.me>:

> On 2024-09-15, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On 13 Sep 2024 19:03:47 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> Dropping the NUCs may be another of their less than stellar decisions
>>> although the marketing wasn't great.
>>
>> Overpriced attempt to compete with the Raspberry Pi. Intel probably
>> lost money on every one they sold.
>
> Not really competing with the Raspberry Pi, NUCs were really just
> laptops without screens and keyboards. Much more powerful than the
> average Raspberry Pi. I use Dell Micro computers, which are similar in
> size and specs to the NUCs. HP has a line of these also. I think the
> problems with Intel's NUCs were 1) Intel really isn't set up to be a
> retailer of computers and 2) they were competing with their own
> customers (which is never a good idea).

Intel had the (now discontinued) Galileo boards to compete with
the Raspberry Pi and similar boards.

https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/sku/83137/intel-galileo-gen-2-board/specifications.html

I don't think they ever ran Linux, *which is probably why
they failed*.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc7 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"2 + 2 = 5 for extremely large values of 2."

On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 05:30:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
<ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vcb460$3bu28$1@dont-email.me>:

> On 17 Sep 2024 02:11:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> ... the NUC was not designed to compete with the Pi. Intel's marketing
>> was haphazard and the units arguably were overpriced.
>
> So what *was* it designed to compete with?

Systems such as VESA-mountable PC's, as well as the Mac Minis.

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc7 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"A hunch is creativity trying to tell you something."

On 17 Sep 2024 11:54:37 GMT, vallor wrote:

> Intel had the (now discontinued) Galileo boards to compete with the
> Raspberry Pi and similar boards.
>
> I don't think they ever ran Linux, *which is probably why they failed*.

I’m sure they ran Linux. *Everything* runs Linux. They would have failed
on sheer price-performance and versatility comparisons.

On 17 Sep 2024 12:37:24 GMT, vallor wrote:

> On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 05:30:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vcb460$3bu28$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 17 Sep 2024 02:11:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> ... the NUC was not designed to compete with the Pi. Intel's marketing
>>> was haphazard and the units arguably were overpriced.
>>
>> So what *was* it designed to compete with?
>
> Systems such as VESA-mountable PC's, as well as the Mac Minis.

Those are not “barebones” kits. The Raspberry Pi is a “barebones” kit. NUC
is/was a “barebones” kit. Therefore it can’t have been aimed at
non-“barebones” competitors, could it?

On 2024-09-18, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On 17 Sep 2024 12:37:24 GMT, vallor wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 17 Sep 2024 05:30:40 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro
>> <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote in <vcb460$3bu28$1@dont-email.me>:
>>
>>> On 17 Sep 2024 02:11:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... the NUC was not designed to compete with the Pi. Intel's marketing
>>>> was haphazard and the units arguably were overpriced.
>>>
>>> So what *was* it designed to compete with?
>>
>> Systems such as VESA-mountable PC's, as well as the Mac Minis.
>
> Those are not “barebones” kits. The Raspberry Pi is a “barebones” kit. NUC
> is/was a “barebones” kit. Therefore it can’t have been aimed at
> non-“barebones” competitors, could it?

The NUC was NOT a barebones kit. You must be mistaken about what a NUC was.

Here's a link to a NUC on Amazon (U.S.).

https://www.amazon.com/NUC11PAHI7-i7-1165G7-Frequency-Graphics-4-Screen/dp/B0CDWMGZ4R/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1TJDJR3W0L6NQ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.UG3mvQv9KVr9170KoYSuirSchmSd1ViK77BOwp3KA8nT3hB9HkBsyqbSB6XSYoRjgYG9_YUu1RbvYCKB_Xk5z-U3IigT6ZxdtP88hmbLFxBg-a544ckSQfJvI0oLPyv77bl6tVV7YtRJ57p8nwXfxQJpGhwYcFkbcs_UBcR6CLylsJy8KugC-xUcpCTCFvQVhT5GFBgbw_4aIzl5-34QIKI4cQui9fXtj8nkWI3uuIcmeWBsGdNCsP7VUs2bZP7s9k7HpnqMh_fm6TuPnfSrplwokl-T1QUCZ9BJVEs9I6Q.Ik3N5Q4w-RBqA8sUrSjzVii6GVWGJr_IE2HD9b-x7No&dib_tag=se&keywords=intel%2Bnuc&nav_sdd=aps&qid=1726649289&refinements=p_n_feature_four_browse-bin%3A2289792011&rnid=676578011&s=pc&sprefix=intel%2Bnuc&sr=1-1&th=1

11th Generation i7, 32 GBs of RAM, 1 TB SSD, etc. NOT a barebones kit.

--
“Evil is not able to create anything new, it can only distort and destroy
what has been invented or made by the forces of good.” —J.R.R. Tolkien

rbowman wrote:

>I'm going to make myself a big bowl of popcorn with real Kerrygold butter,
>sit back and watch. It doesn't make a big rat's ass difference in the long
>run.

I fear for our children, however. This country is being overrun by
immigrants from other cultures.

The tyrants want to break down our society and control every aspect of
our lives. Your air conditioner will run only when it's allowed.
Your car will spy on you and only go where it's allowed. Literally!
They will be able to shut it down remotely!

We will be weak and subservient to the Chinese Communist Party. They
will control our infrastructure. They will make all of our solar
cells, wind turbines and transformers. They will own and refine most
of the critical ingredients in batteries. They will make our
vaccines. Once they take Taiwan, they will own almost all of the
advanced chip making.

This is our future, if the leftists get what they want.

On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:32:09 -0500, chrisv wrote:

> I fear for our children, however. This country is being overrun by
> immigrants from other cultures.

Nietzsche had a lot to say about decadence and nihilism. If you look at
history many areas have been overrun by superior forces, the Americas by
Europeans, the whole völkerwanderung period in Europe itself, the Huns,
the Mongols and so forth. It is sad to see a superior culture inviting in
an inferior in an act of suicide.

Jean Raspail was right in general although some of the details differ.
It's not like there were no warnings in the last hundred years. Madison
Grant published 'The Passing of the Great Race' in 1916. Grant had
concerns about southern Europeans let alone Somalis, Haitians, and others.

I don't have children and I won't be around to see the full effect. As the
song goes, 'If this is the way it ends, I can’t bear to witness.'

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Wed, 18 Sep 2024 16:32:09 -0500, chrisv wrote:
>
>> I fear for our children, however. This country is being overrun by
>> immigrants from other cultures.
>
>Nietzsche had a lot to say about decadence and nihilism. If you look at
>history many areas have been overrun by superior forces, the Americas by
>Europeans, the whole völkerwanderung period in Europe itself, the Huns,
>the Mongols and so forth. It is sad to see a superior culture inviting in
>an inferior in an act of suicide.
>
>Jean Raspail was right in general although some of the details differ.
>It's not like there were no warnings in the last hundred years. Madison
>Grant published 'The Passing of the Great Race' in 1916. Grant had
>concerns about southern Europeans let alone Somalis, Haitians, and others.
>
>I don't have children and I won't be around to see the full effect. As the
>song goes, 'If this is the way it ends, I can’t bear to witness.'

What you're talking about is called the global economy, the migrants
and illegal immigrants are part of this. America isn't the kind of
place that puts razor wire in rivers, as a certain state did usurping
federal jurisdiction of an international border. I mention the state
in my sig, because of their first in the nation bonkers political
intervention in a medical abortion.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.