Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 19:40 this Friday (GMT):
> % wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
[snip]
>>> I took Spanish and typing and our high-school trig and calculus classes.
>>> Only remnants remain, and my typing is weird but effective.
>>>
>> i type with one finger and i have to look
>
> I use my lefty pinky for Shift no matter what letter. And my left pinky is
> numb because of neck surgery. :-(

Oh no, what happened?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:22:49 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> [ARM] doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.
>
>RISC architectures like ARM and RISC-V offer plenty of advantages, but you
>need native code to take advantage of them. That native code almost
>entirely runs under Linux.

They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these
devices hitting the market.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
wrote:
>Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:29 this Wednesday (GMT):
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 12:46:35 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>>> advantages for laptops.
>>
>> It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>> on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>> work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>> return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.
>
>So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?

Yes - but the egg will come. They will port everything to ARM64.
Lawrence would be right if we based the analysis on primitive x86
emulation, rather than what will be developed under ARM.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid>
wrote:
>Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote at 14:45 this Saturday (GMT):
>> Le 13-07-2024, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?
>>
>> The answer has been provided a long time ago. I have no idea why some
>> people still consider it's still an issue.
>> Either you are a believer and it's the chicken (read the bible: God
>> created the animals, not the eggs).
>> Or you are a scientist and it's the egg (something which was not yet a
>> chicken make a chicken egg).
>>
>> There is nothing more to investigate or to discuss about it.
>
>I was using a common saying...

You were, although Stéphane is not a native English speaker precisely,
but it should've been reasonably clear you were using an expression.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 13 Jul 2024 14:45:58 GMT, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:

> The answer has been provided a long time ago. I have no idea why some
> people still consider it's still an issue.
> Either you are a believer and it's the chicken (read the bible: God
> created the animals, not the eggs).
> Or you are a scientist and it's the egg (something which was not yet a
> chicken make a chicken egg).

So is the hardware platform the egg or the software applications that are
available for it?

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:

> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these devices
> hitting the market.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview

There will be a ripple effect. Many programs pull in NuGet packages, third
party software for a particular task. Newtonsoft.jspn, for example, is a
popular package for working with JSON although Microsoft finally came up
with System.Text.Json which is arguably better. Of course if your existing
app uses NewtonSoft switching isn't painless.

I don't know if that example is actually applicable but I'm sure there
will be stumbling blocks when you realize your favorite package isn't
available as an ARM binary.

I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while companies
scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide emulation is good
enough. I assume the .NET process for Windows on Arm will be similar to
linux-arm64.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/iot/deployment

There is a win-arm64 RID so maybe you can cross your fingers and hope for
the best assuming you've scored a suitable test machine.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/rid-catalog

Thankfully, this is not my problem.

On 2024-07-13 10:30 a.m., candycanearter07 wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:05 this Friday (GMT):
>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 15:37:42 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run on Windows-for-ARM.
>>>
>>> I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
>>> something equivalent to that.
>>
>> Not the lower-level stuff like game anti-cheat. That cannot be emulated:
>> it has to be done in CPU-native code.
>
>
> Kernel anti-cheat was a bad idea anyways.

I disagree. The people cheating online have ruined the very idea of
playing with strangers online. Back in 2001 when NHL 2002 came out, I
was one of the strongest players online. I would seldom lose, but when I
did, I noticed that my players were moving extremely slowly whereas the
opponent's were very fast. Even back then, people would cheat because
like Muslims, online players have no honour whatsoever.

--
CrudeSausage

On 7/13/2024 5:19 PM, CrudeSausage wrote:

> Even back then, people would cheat because
> like Muslims, online players have no honour whatsoever.

Slimer's back!

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:22:49 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> [ARM] doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.
>>
>>RISC architectures like ARM and RISC-V offer plenty of advantages, but
>>you need native code to take advantage of them. That native code almost
>>entirely runs under Linux.
>
> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these devices
> hitting the market.

They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.

On 13 Jul 2024 18:04:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while companies
> scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide emulation is
> good enough.

Some things won’t run under emulation, as I pointed out elsewhere.

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 14:30:07 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:05 this Friday (GMT):
>
>> On Thu, 11 Jul 2024 15:37:42 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run on Windows-for-ARM.
>>>
>>> I do realize that x86 has advantages, but they can all be emulated or
>>> something equivalent to that.
>>
>> Not the lower-level stuff like game anti-cheat. That cannot be
>> emulated: it has to be done in CPU-native code.
>
> Kernel anti-cheat was a bad idea anyways.

Bad idea or not, it’s an inescapable fact of the Windows gaming world.

Fortnite doesn’t run on the Linux-based Steam Deck, either; but
fortunately that has other reasons to appeal to customers, that Windows-
on-ARM lacks.

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 14:30:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:29 this Wednesday
> (GMT):
>
>> On Wed, 10 Jul 2024 12:46:35 -0400, Joel wrote:
>>
>>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>>> advantages for laptops.
>>
>> It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not
>> run on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their
>> games work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are
>> assured of a return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can
>> guarantee.
>
> So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?

Bingo. The product needs some feature(s) to appeal to customers out of the
box, to overcome the lack of apps. Then its popularity with customers will
pull in the developers to fill in that lack of apps.

That’s how you overcome the chicken-and-egg issue, as Android did.
Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM has nothing like that.

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:05:07 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Yes - but the egg will come. They will port everything to ARM64.

Who is “they”? Proprietary developers are not going to spend the
considerable amounts it would take to port their apps unless they can be
assured of some return on that investment. There is no such assurance.

On 2024-07-13, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
> Le 13-07-2024, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> a écrit :
>>
>> So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?
>
> The answer has been provided a long time ago. I have no idea why some
> people still consider it's still an issue.
> Either you are a believer and it's the chicken (read the bible: God
> created the animals, not the eggs).
> Or you are a scientist and it's the egg (something which was not yet a
> chicken make a chicken egg).
>
> There is nothing more to investigate or to discuss about it.

Either are believed by faith, as there is definitely no scientific way to
demonstrate that a non-chicken laid a chicken egg.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 23:22:36 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 13 Jul 2024 18:04:27 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while
>> companies scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide
>> emulation is good enough.
>
> Some things won’t run under emulation, as I pointed out elsewhere.

Absolutely but you are claiming Windows on Arm won't have the apps out of
the box that will attract developers. Will enough apps run under Prism to
attract users before native apps are developed? Of 'some apps' means games
that can't use anti-cheat code is that the market they're even aiming at?

Typically gamers don't list low power as part of the criteria. I think
some of them have worked their way up to vapor phase cooling.

Le 14-07-2024, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> a écrit :
> On 2024-07-13, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>> Le 13-07-2024, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?
>>
>> The answer has been provided a long time ago. I have no idea why some
>> people still consider it's still an issue.
>> Either you are a believer and it's the chicken (read the bible: God
>> created the animals, not the eggs).
>> Or you are a scientist and it's the egg (something which was not yet a
>> chicken make a chicken egg).
>>
>> There is nothing more to investigate or to discuss about it.
>
> Either are believed by faith, as there is definitely no scientific way to
> demonstrate that a non-chicken laid a chicken egg.

In fact, when answering candycanearter07, I was looking for that answer,
not for candycanearter07 answer. You neither understood science nor
Darwin. It's fun to read your expected wrong answer.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Le 13-07-2024, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> a écrit :
> Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote at 14:45 this Saturday (GMT):
>> Le 13-07-2024, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> a écrit :
>>>
>>> So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?
>>
>> The answer has been provided a long time ago. I have no idea why some
>> people still consider it's still an issue.
>> Either you are a believer and it's the chicken (read the bible: God
>> created the animals, not the eggs).
>> Or you are a scientist and it's the egg (something which was not yet a
>> chicken make a chicken egg).
>>
>> There is nothing more to investigate or to discuss about it.
>
>
> I was using a common saying...

Yes, I know. I don't care about your answer. I was expecting something
else and I get it. Thanks for your help.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Joel wrote:
>>
>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>> advantages for laptops.
>
>It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.

Gamers don't usually care if they save 100W of power, either.

--
"I see many Linux users very much for choice as long as the choices
are only what they want them to be." - "Black Dragon", lying
shamelessly

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>On Fri, 12 Jul 2024 11:22:49 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> [ARM] doesn't offer enough advantages over CISC.
>>>
>>>RISC architectures like ARM and RISC-V offer plenty of advantages, but
>>>you need native code to take advantage of them. That native code almost
>>>entirely runs under Linux.
>>
>> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these devices
>> hitting the market.
>
>They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.

Dell already has this XPS 13 model. A laptop. A workstation. It's
going to move toward this being a more implemented alternative to
IntelAMD.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> Yes - but the egg will come. They will port everything to ARM64.
>
>Who is “they”? Proprietary developers are not going to spend the
>considerable amounts it would take to port their apps unless they can be
>assured of some return on that investment. There is no such assurance.

If they can do this they gain in the Mac marketplace with their
Windows ARM support, and they stay with the PC marketplace as Dell is
showing has a demand for ARM hardware.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

candycanearter07 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 19:40 this Friday (GMT):
>> % wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>
>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> [snip]
>>>> I took Spanish and typing and our high-school trig and calculus classes.
>>>> Only remnants remain, and my typing is weird but effective.
>>>>
>>> i type with one finger and i have to look
>>
>> I use my lefty pinky for Shift no matter what letter. And my left pinky is
>> numb because of neck surgery. :-(
>
> Oh no, what happened?

Wear and tear, too many hits to the head in soccer. A few decades ago I had
to get one plate because my right arm was becoming difficult to use. A few
decades later and more hits to the head and it was my left arm. Couldn't even
hold the bike handlebars properly. So they took out the old plate and replaced
it with three. But they waited too long, trying therapy and nerve injections
first, so the damage became permanent.

Oh well, could be worse. At least I can still bike. Watching Le Tour right now.

--
Too much is just enough.
-- Mark Twain, on whiskey

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote at 18:04 this Saturday (GMT):
> On Sat, 13 Jul 2024 12:01:33 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> They will start compiling Win64 apps for ARM, though, with these devices
>> hitting the market.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/arm/overview
>
> There will be a ripple effect. Many programs pull in NuGet packages, third
> party software for a particular task. Newtonsoft.jspn, for example, is a
> popular package for working with JSON although Microsoft finally came up
> with System.Text.Json which is arguably better. Of course if your existing
> app uses NewtonSoft switching isn't painless.

Wait, MS didn't have native JSON support??

> I don't know if that example is actually applicable but I'm sure there
> will be stumbling blocks when you realize your favorite package isn't
> available as an ARM binary.

Especially if you enjoy apps that aren't updated anymore

> I expect many apps will be running in the Prism emulator while companies
> scramble for a native Arm solution or they might decide emulation is good

I'd imagine it wouldn't be seamless, but it seems good as a stopgap.

> enough. I assume the .NET process for Windows on Arm will be similar to
> linux-arm64.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/iot/deployment
>
> There is a win-arm64 RID so maybe you can cross your fingers and hope for
> the best assuming you've scored a suitable test machine.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/rid-catalog
>
>
> Thankfully, this is not my problem.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 12:01 this Sunday (GMT):
> candycanearter07 wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote at 19:40 this Friday (GMT):
>>> % wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>
>>>> Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>> [snip]
>>>>> I took Spanish and typing and our high-school trig and calculus classes.
>>>>> Only remnants remain, and my typing is weird but effective.
>>>>>
>>>> i type with one finger and i have to look
>>>
>>> I use my lefty pinky for Shift no matter what letter. And my left pinky is
>>> numb because of neck surgery. :-(
>>
>> Oh no, what happened?
>
> Wear and tear, too many hits to the head in soccer. A few decades ago I had
> to get one plate because my right arm was becoming difficult to use. A few
> decades later and more hits to the head and it was my left arm. Couldn't even
> hold the bike handlebars properly. So they took out the old plate and replaced
> it with three. But they waited too long, trying therapy and nerve injections
> first, so the damage became permanent.
>
> Oh well, could be worse. At least I can still bike. Watching Le Tour right now.

Oh no :( at least you made some recovery..
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote at 11:26 this Sunday (GMT):
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Joel wrote:
>>>
>>> A lot of laptops are sold to gamers - this new technology has real
>>> advantages for laptops.
>>
>>It would if it worked. I notice that Fortnite, for example, will not run
>>on Windows-for-ARM. Gamers are not going to buy into it until their games
>>work. And the game developers won’t do that until they are assured of a
>>return on their sizeable investment. Which nobody can guarantee.
>
> Gamers don't usually care if they save 100W of power, either.

Having a laptop that dies in 2 hours is very frustrating sometimes.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote at 11:13 this Sunday (GMT):
> Le 14-07-2024, RonB <ronb02NOSPAM@gmail.com> a écrit :
>> On 2024-07-13, Stéphane CARPENTIER <sc@fiat-linux.fr> wrote:
>>> Le 13-07-2024, candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> So, it's a chicken or the egg issue?
>>>
>>> The answer has been provided a long time ago. I have no idea why some
>>> people still consider it's still an issue.
>>> Either you are a believer and it's the chicken (read the bible: God
>>> created the animals, not the eggs).
>>> Or you are a scientist and it's the egg (something which was not yet a
>>> chicken make a chicken egg).
>>>
>>> There is nothing more to investigate or to discuss about it.
>>
>> Either are believed by faith, as there is definitely no scientific way to
>> demonstrate that a non-chicken laid a chicken egg.
>
> In fact, when answering candycanearter07, I was looking for that answer,
> not for candycanearter07 answer. You neither understood science nor
> Darwin. It's fun to read your expected wrong answer.

oh
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom