Attila wrote:
> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus
> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <l9g5cuFglehU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>
>> Attila wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all
>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions
>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being
>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold
>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>>> facts.
>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>> conclusion.
>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>
>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>> and credible.
>>>
>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
>> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
>> else did, that still needs to be investigated.
> True but without corroboration there would be little result.
>
>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>>> has this.
>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
> Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world.
>
>>> Simply
>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>
>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>> validate them
>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
>> is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
>> just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
>> their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
>> believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
>> God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
>> seem obvious.
> Nonsense. Evidence without factual support is about as
> useless as can be imagined.
>
> "Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!"
> "Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!"
> "Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!"
> "Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!"
>
> Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is
> needed.
>
>>> Such validation requires unambiguous,
>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>>>
>>>> it's irrelevant
>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some
>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>>>> good authority on this.
>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
>>> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or
>>> supernatural claims are independently supported.
>> yes
> Therefore belief or non-belief can be as simple as flipping
> a coin.

On Fri, 3 May 2024 22:42:31 +1000, Maximus
<gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
<l9k4dqF498qU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:

>Attila wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus
>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <l9g5cuFglehU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all
>>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions
>>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being
>>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold
>>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>>>> facts.
>>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>>> conclusion.
>>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>>
>>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>>> and credible.
>>>>
>>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
>>> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
>>> else did, that still needs to be investigated.
>> True but without corroboration there would be little result.
>>
>>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>>>> has this.
>>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>> Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world.
>>
>>>> Simply
>>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>>
>>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>>> validate them
>>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
>>> is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
>>> just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
>>> their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
>>> believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
>>> God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
>>> seem obvious.
>> Nonsense. Evidence without factual support is about as
>> useless as can be imagined.
>>
>> "Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!"
>> "Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!"
>> "Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!"
>> "Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!"
>>
>> Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is
>> needed.
>>
>>>> Such validation requires unambiguous,
>>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>>>>
>>>>> it's irrelevant
>>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some
>>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>>>>> good authority on this.
>>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
>>>> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or
>>>> supernatural claims are independently supported.
>>> yes
>> Therefore belief or non-belief can be as simple as flipping
>> a coin.
>
>of course ppl can believe or not, as with anything, like UFO's, or
>Bigfoot, or whatever
>
>> Except belief under these conditions also requires
>> belief in anything including vampires, elves, giants,
>> dragons, werewolves, and shape shifters.
>>
>
>that's a stupid argument. belief in some thing doesn't create any
>obligation to believe in some other thing.
>

Of course there is a God...
but God doesn't leave
evidence for just a
select few to see..
God leaves
evidence for everyone
to see...
even a 3 year old.

The evidence that
God exist is
almost certaintly
overwhelming!

I'll give you one example.

'In the beginning, God
created the heavens and
the earth.'

Is there any evidence
that an earth exist????

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge the unchallengeable.

On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
<starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
<66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Of course there is a God...
>but God doesn't leave
>evidence for just a
>select few to see..
>God leaves
>evidence for everyone
>to see...
>even a 3 year old.
>
>The evidence that
>God exist is
>almost certaintly
>overwhelming!
>
>I'll give you one example.
>
>'In the beginning, God
>created the heavens and
>the earth.'

Quote from an unverified source.

>
>Is there any evidence
>that an earth exist????

The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.
It says nothing about why, if there is a why. Or how.

"Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!"
"Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!"
"Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!"
"Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!"

Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is
needed.

For you it seems the existence of the Earth is all that is
needed.

They are all more than a bit ambiguous.

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

Attila wrote:
> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>
>> Attila wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence.
>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>> reality.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all
>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>> someone either way.
>>>
>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions
>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being
>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold
>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>> believe in such.
>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>> facts.
>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>> conclusion.
> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>
> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
> and credible.
>

unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
else did, that still needs to be investigated.

>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>> has this.
>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
> different from any John Doe off any street.

the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise

> Simply
> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
> certain time and place proves nothing.
>
> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>> for Xtian faith
>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>> without any supporting evidence.
>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
> validate them

nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
seem obvious.

> Such validation requires unambiguous,
> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>
>> it's irrelevant
>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some
>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>> good authority on this.
> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or
> supernatural claims are independently supported.

On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus
<gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
<l9g5cuFglehU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:

>Attila wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence.
>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all
>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>> someone either way.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions
>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being
>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold
>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>> facts.
>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>> conclusion.
>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>
>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>> and credible.
>>
>
>unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
>credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
>else did, that still needs to be investigated.

True but without corroboration there would be little result.

>
>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>> has this.
>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>
>the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise

Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world.

>
>> Simply
>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>
>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>> validate them
>
>nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
>is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
>just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
>their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
>believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
>God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
>seem obvious.

On Thu, 2 May 2024, Maximus wrote:

> Attila wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level
>>>>>>>>>>>>> of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is
>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of
>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>> someone either way.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many
>>>>>>> millions
>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with
>>>>>>> gold
>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>> facts.
>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>> conclusion.
>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>
>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>> and credible.
>>
>
> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one else
> did, that still needs to be investigated.
>
>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>> has this.
>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>
> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>
>> Simply
>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>
>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>> validate them
>
> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim is
> there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof. just as
> sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for their sport,
> ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the believers (billions
> of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the God exists, or there
> wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this seem obvious.

D wrote:
>
>
> On Thu, 2 May 2024, Maximus wrote:
>
>> Attila wrote:
>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really.  Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is
>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if
>>>>>>>> twenty pp
>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence.  It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>> Any one will do.  They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>>       As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over
>>>>>>>> 50% of all
>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>> So what?  That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>> Or not.  There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>      There are hundreds of others.  In fact
>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no
>>>>>>>> evidence. for
>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their
>>>>>>>> faith. just
>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many
>>>>>>>> millions
>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs.
>>>>>>>> in fact
>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things
>>>>>>>> as being
>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>> Or not.  There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when
>>>>>>>> one does
>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg.
>>>>>>>> xtians
>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved
>>>>>>>> with gold
>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will
>>>>>>>> get 70
>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>> for anything involving religion.  That is why faith was
>>>>>>> invented.  Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing.  No
>>>>> facts.
>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>> conclusion.
>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>
>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>> and credible.
>>>
>>
>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on
>> it's credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but
>> no one else did, that still needs to be investigated.
>>
>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence.  No religion
>>>>> has this.
>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>>
>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>>
>>>    Simply
>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>
>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>> Or for any other religion.  None of them have anything
>>>>> beyond faith.  Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>> validate them
>>
>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your
>> claim is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's
>> no proof. just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are
>> evidence for their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and
>> Mosques and the believers (billions of them) are evidence for their
>> God. ie. that the God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or
>> Mosques. to me this seem obvious.
>
> No, that is incorrect. Churches and churchgoers are evidence that
> churches and organized religions exist. They are not evidence of
> everything that religion proclaims to be true, is true.

Attila wrote:
> On Fri, 3 May 2024 22:42:31 +1000, Maximus
> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <l9k4dqF498qU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>
>> Attila wrote:
>>> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus
>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <l9g5cuFglehU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all
>>>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions
>>>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being
>>>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold
>>>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>>>> conclusion.
>>>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>>>
>>>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>>>> and credible.
>>>>>
>>>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
>>>> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
>>>> else did, that still needs to be investigated.
>>> True but without corroboration there would be little result.
>>>
>>>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>>>>> has this.
>>>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>>>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>>> Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world.
>>>
>>>>> Simply
>>>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>>>> validate them
>>>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
>>>> is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
>>>> just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
>>>> their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
>>>> believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
>>>> God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
>>>> seem obvious.
>>> Nonsense. Evidence without factual support is about as
>>> useless as can be imagined.
>>>
>>> "Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!"
>>> "Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!"
>>> "Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!"
>>> "Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!"
>>>
>>> Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is
>>> needed.
>>>
>>>>> Such validation requires unambiguous,
>>>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>>>>>
>>>>>> it's irrelevant
>>>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some
>>>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>>>>>> good authority on this.
>>>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
>>>>> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or
>>>>> supernatural claims are independently supported.
>>>> yes
>>> Therefore belief or non-belief can be as simple as flipping
>>> a coin.
>> of course ppl can believe or not, as with anything, like UFO's, or
>> Bigfoot, or whatever
>>
>>> Except belief under these conditions also requires
>>> belief in anything including vampires, elves, giants,
>>> dragons, werewolves, and shape shifters.
>>>
>> that's a stupid argument. belief in some thing doesn't create any
>> obligation to believe in some other thing.
>>
> True, but how can defend not believing in something when the
> evidence supporting something you do believe in is exactly
> the same in either case?
>
> Such a selection would be the definition of arbitrary.

On Sat, 4 May 2024 12:21:19 +1000, Maximus
<gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
<l9lkd0Fb5ebU2@mid.individual.net> wrote:

>Attila wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 May 2024 22:42:31 +1000, Maximus
>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <l9k4dqF498qU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus
>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <l9g5cuFglehU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty pp
>>>>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of all
>>>>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence. for
>>>>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith. just
>>>>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many millions
>>>>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in fact
>>>>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as being
>>>>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one does
>>>>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with gold
>>>>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>>>>>> facts.
>>>>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>>>>> conclusion.
>>>>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>>>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>>>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>>>>> and credible.
>>>>>>
>>>>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
>>>>> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
>>>>> else did, that still needs to be investigated.
>>>> True but without corroboration there would be little result.
>>>>
>>>>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>>>>>> has this.
>>>>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>>>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>>>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>>>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>>>>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>>>> Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world.
>>>>
>>>>>> Simply
>>>>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>>>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>>>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>>>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>>>>> validate them
>>>>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
>>>>> is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
>>>>> just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
>>>>> their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
>>>>> believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
>>>>> God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
>>>>> seem obvious.
>>>> Nonsense. Evidence without factual support is about as
>>>> useless as can be imagined.
>>>>
>>>> "Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!"
>>>> "Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!"
>>>> "Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!"
>>>> "Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!"
>>>>
>>>> Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is
>>>> needed.
>>>>
>>>>>> Such validation requires unambiguous,
>>>>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> it's irrelevant
>>>>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some
>>>>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>>>>>>> good authority on this.
>>>>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
>>>>>> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or
>>>>>> supernatural claims are independently supported.
>>>>> yes
>>>> Therefore belief or non-belief can be as simple as flipping
>>>> a coin.
>>> of course ppl can believe or not, as with anything, like UFO's, or
>>> Bigfoot, or whatever
>>>
>>>> Except belief under these conditions also requires
>>>> belief in anything including vampires, elves, giants,
>>>> dragons, werewolves, and shape shifters.
>>>>
>>> that's a stupid argument. belief in some thing doesn't create any
>>> obligation to believe in some other thing.
>>>
>> True, but how can defend not believing in something when the
>> evidence supporting something you do believe in is exactly
>> the same in either case?
>>
>> Such a selection would be the definition of arbitrary.
>
>everything is considered on it's merits. there seems to be credible
>evidence for believing in UFO's, werewolves not so much.
>

On Fri, 3 May 2024, Maximus wrote:

> Attila wrote:
>> On Thu, 2 May 2024 10:34:33 +1000, Maximus
>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <l9g5cuFglehU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 1 May 2024 01:01:01 +1000, Maximus
>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <l9cfdfFu7b8U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 22:57:53 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <l9c86kFt574U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 21:43:47 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>> <l9c3rjFsglgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 18:18:28 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>> <l9bnqmFqncgU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 30 Apr 2024 11:59:25 +1000, Maximus
>>>>>>>>>>>> <gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>> <l9b1k0FniudU1@mid.individual.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Attila wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 28 Apr 2024 21:38:00 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <662F2428.72E6@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Starmaker wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheism is a belief, it's not a science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious beliefs and Atheism beliefs are both on the same
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Atheist are confident that there is no God, as Religions are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confident that there is a God.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> They are are both on the same level of ...beliefs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really. Theists postulate the existence of something
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without any supporting evidence for that existence.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I disagree. billions of believers and personal testimony is
>>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Personal testimony is never evidence
>>>>>>>>>>> any court would disagree with you
>>>>>>>>>> It is well known that personal testimony is the poorest kind
>>>>>>>>>> of evidence.
>>>>>>>>> maybe, but still evidence. and it's relative to numbers. if twenty
>>>>>>>>> pp
>>>>>>>>> say they saw me run down a pedestrian in my car, that carries more
>>>>>>>>> weight than if just one person says it.
>>>>>>>> I agree - it is evidence. It just isn't very useful
>>>>>>>> evidence.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The value of eyewitnesses:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJG698U2Mvo
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubNF9QNEQLA
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bnnmWYI0lM
>>>>>>>>> I'm not going to watch all those, sorry. (see comment below)
>>>>>>>> Any one will do. They all show what you see may not be
>>>>>>>> reality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> since there is no way
>>>>>>>>>>>> to support it.
>>>>>>>>>>>> As far as the "belief of billions" is
>>>>>>>>>>>> concerned there are hundreds of different beliefs in there
>>>>>>>>>>>> and they can't all be correct.
>>>>>>>>>>> I was referring to Xtianity and Islam primarily
>>>>>>>>>> How about Hindu?
>>>>>>>>> about 1.2 billion. but Christians and Islamists make up over 50% of
>>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>>> religious faiths.
>>>>>>>> So what? That doesn't mean any of them are valid.
>>>>>>> no, but your point is there's no evidence. I say it's evidence the
>>>>>>> beliefs could be valid.
>>>>>> Or not. There is no actual evidence that would convince
>>>>>> someone either way.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There are hundreds of others. In fact
>>>>>>>>>> there are many, many different Christian beliefs.
>>>>>>>>> yes. I'm just saying it's not as you say that there's no evidence.
>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>> example believers spend a lot of money in support of their faith.
>>>>>>>>> just
>>>>>>>>> near where I am there's a 7th day Adventist complex worth many
>>>>>>>>> millions
>>>>>>>>> of dollars. also many intelligent ppl have religious beliefs. in
>>>>>>>>> fact
>>>>>>>>> theists vastly outnumber us. you can't just dismiss such things as
>>>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>>>> no evidence that there may be some validity to their beliefs.
>>>>>>>> Or not. There is exactly the same support either way.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> but at the
>>>>>>>>> end of the day, I look at what the beliefs actually are. when one
>>>>>>>>> does
>>>>>>>>> that, it's not so difficult to dismiss them as nonsense. eg. xtians
>>>>>>>>> believe they will live in mansions, and walk on streets paved with
>>>>>>>>> gold
>>>>>>>>> in some god adoring afterlife, and muslims believe they will get 70
>>>>>>>>> virgins if they die as martyrs.
>>>>>>>> Most religions have common factors - rewards for believers
>>>>>>>> and painful punishment for non-believers.
>>>>>>>> Basically there is no actual supporting evidence either way
>>>>>>>> for anything involving religion. That is why faith was
>>>>>>>> invented. Faith is belief without evidence - for those who
>>>>>>>> believe in such.
>>>>>>> no, faith is belief without proof
>>>>>> Proof - evidence - either way it is the same thing. No
>>>>>> facts.
>>>>> no. evidence is not proof. evidence is just something that supports a
>>>>> conclusion.
>>>> True, but usually evidence has some validity factor.
>>>>
>>>> Just what is evidence is usually left to the judgment of the
>>>> parties involved, which makes unsupported evidence useless.
>>>> Meaningful evidence is unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable
>>>> and credible.
>>>>
>>> unsupported evidence is not useless. all evidence is evaluated on it's
>>> credibility. if there's a murder and I say I saw it happen, but no one
>>> else did, that still needs to be investigated.
>> True but without corroboration there would be little result.
>>
>>>>>> A fact is a statement that can be verified. It can be proven
>>>>>> to be true or false through objective evidence. No religion
>>>>>> has this.
>>>>> yes they do. Muhammad is an historical person, as is Jesus
>>>> Absolutely correct but there is no unambiguous, unrelated,
>>>> verifiable and credible evidence that they were any
>>>> different from any John Doe off any street.
>>> the impact they had on the world suggests otherwise
>> Ra and Osiris had a similar impact on their world.
>>
>>>> Simply
>>>> accepting (or proving) someone with that name existed at a
>>>> certain time and place proves nothing.
>>>>
>>>> There is no independent and unrelated supporting evidence.
>>>>>>> . the gospels for example are a basis
>>>>>>> for Xtian faith
>>>>>> Or for any other religion. None of them have anything
>>>>>> beyond faith. Your gospels are accepted as being true
>>>>>> without any supporting evidence.
>>>>> the gospels are evidence for the events they contain
>>>> Your acceptance of them as evidence does nothing to actually
>>>> validate them
>>> nevertheless they are still evidence for what they contain. your claim
>>> is there's no evidence for religious belief, not that there's no proof.
>>> just as sporting organizations, clubs, and participants are evidence for
>>> their sport, ie. that the sport exists, Churches and Mosques and the
>>> believers (billions of them) are evidence for their God. ie. that the
>>> God exists, or there wouldn't be any Churches or Mosques. to me this
>>> seem obvious.
>> Nonsense. Evidence without factual support is about as
>> useless as can be imagined.
>>
>> "Oh, look! A pile of poop! That proves there is a god!"
>> "Oh, look! A rock! That proves there is a god!"
>> "Oh, look! A bug! That proves there is a god!"
>> "Oh, look! A ham sandwich! That proves there is a god!"
>>
>> Take your pick. For some that is all the evidence that is
>> needed.
>>
>>>> Such validation requires unambiguous,
>>>> unrelated, verifiable and credible evidence,
>>>>
>>>>> it's irrelevant
>>>>> whether those events are true or not. they are still evidence. but some
>>>>> things in the gospels are known to be factual. Bart Ehrman is a (very)
>>>>> good authority on this.
>>>> Nothing beyond some physical locations and independently
>>>> verified historical figures. None of the mystical or
>>>> supernatural claims are independently supported.
>>> yes
>> Therefore belief or non-belief can be as simple as flipping
>> a coin.
>
> of course ppl can believe or not, as with anything, like UFO's, or Bigfoot,
> or whatever
>
>> Except belief under these conditions also requires
>> belief in anything including vampires, elves, giants,
>> dragons, werewolves, and shape shifters.
>>
>
> that's a stupid argument. belief in some thing doesn't create any obligation
> to believe in some other thing.

Attila < wrote:
>
> On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Of course there is a God...
> >but God doesn't leave
> >evidence for just a
> >select few to see..
> >God leaves
> >evidence for everyone
> >to see...
> >even a 3 year old.
> >
> >The evidence that
> >God exist is
> >almost certaintly
> >overwhelming!
> >
> >I'll give you one example.
> >
> >'In the beginning, God
> >created the heavens and
> >the earth.'
>
> Quote from an unverified source.
>
> >
> >Is there any evidence
> >that an earth exist????
>
> The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.

It appears you believe the earth exists.

I'm just doing a reverse engineering...

'In the beginning, God
created the heavens and
the earth.'

How about "the heavens"? ...that would be the sky, our sun, the stars, moon and other planets.

Does "the heavens" exist??

I'm counting on you being a verified source...

(you already verified the earth exists)

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge the unchallengeable.

On Mon, 06 May 2024 08:35:16 -0700, The Starmaker
<starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
<6638F8B4.4C4C@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Attila < wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Of course there is a God...
>> >but God doesn't leave
>> >evidence for just a
>> >select few to see..
>> >God leaves
>> >evidence for everyone
>> >to see...
>> >even a 3 year old.
>> >
>> >The evidence that
>> >God exist is
>> >almost certaintly
>> >overwhelming!
>> >
>> >I'll give you one example.
>> >
>> >'In the beginning, God
>> >created the heavens and
>> >the earth.'
>>
>> Quote from an unverified source.
>>
>> >
>> >Is there any evidence
>> >that an earth exist????
>>
>> The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.
>
>It appears you believe the earth exists.

There is verification of such existence.

>
>I'm just doing a reverse engineering...
>
>'In the beginning, God
>created the heavens and
>the earth.'

Quote from unverified source.

>
>
>How about "the heavens"? ...that would be the sky, our sun, the stars, moon and other planets.

Nope. You are talking about the universe.

>
>Does "the heavens" exist??

The universe does, as independently proven.

>
>I'm counting on you being a verified source...
>
>(you already verified the earth exists)
>
>
Sorry. I have personally proven nothing and thus cannot
verify anything.

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

Attila < wrote:
>
> On Mon, 06 May 2024 08:35:16 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <6638F8B4.4C4C@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Attila < wrote:
> >>
> >> On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> >> <66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Of course there is a God...
> >> >but God doesn't leave
> >> >evidence for just a
> >> >select few to see..
> >> >God leaves
> >> >evidence for everyone
> >> >to see...
> >> >even a 3 year old.
> >> >
> >> >The evidence that
> >> >God exist is
> >> >almost certaintly
> >> >overwhelming!
> >> >
> >> >I'll give you one example.
> >> >
> >> >'In the beginning, God
> >> >created the heavens and
> >> >the earth.'
> >>
> >> Quote from an unverified source.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Is there any evidence
> >> >that an earth exist????
> >>
> >> The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.
> >
> >It appears you believe the earth exists.
>
> There is verification of such existence.
>
> >
> >I'm just doing a reverse engineering...
> >
> >'In the beginning, God
> >created the heavens and
> >the earth.'
>
> Quote from unverified source.
>
> >
> >
> >How about "the heavens"? ...that would be the sky, our sun, the stars, moon and other planets.
>
> Nope. You are talking about the universe.
>
> >
> >Does "the heavens" exist??
>
> The universe does, as independently proven.
>
> >
> >I'm counting on you being a verified source...
> >
> >(you already verified the earth exists)
> >
> >
> Sorry. I have personally proven nothing and thus cannot
> verify anything.

But you said: "There is verification of such existence."

Are you saying you don't trust the ..."verification"????

i'm confused.

I don't know if you are 'aware' that you sound very much like a ..God fearing person.

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge the unchallengeable.

On Mon, 06 May 2024 12:41:29 -0700, The Starmaker
<starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
<66393269.4913@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Attila < wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 06 May 2024 08:35:16 -0700, The Starmaker
>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <6638F8B4.4C4C@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Attila < wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
>> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> >> <66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Of course there is a God...
>> >> >but God doesn't leave
>> >> >evidence for just a
>> >> >select few to see..
>> >> >God leaves
>> >> >evidence for everyone
>> >> >to see...
>> >> >even a 3 year old.
>> >> >
>> >> >The evidence that
>> >> >God exist is
>> >> >almost certaintly
>> >> >overwhelming!
>> >> >
>> >> >I'll give you one example.
>> >> >
>> >> >'In the beginning, God
>> >> >created the heavens and
>> >> >the earth.'
>> >>
>> >> Quote from an unverified source.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Is there any evidence
>> >> >that an earth exist????
>> >>
>> >> The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.
>> >
>> >It appears you believe the earth exists.
>>
>> There is verification of such existence.
>>
>> >
>> >I'm just doing a reverse engineering...
>> >
>> >'In the beginning, God
>> >created the heavens and
>> >the earth.'
>>
>> Quote from unverified source.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >How about "the heavens"? ...that would be the sky, our sun, the stars, moon and other planets.
>>
>> Nope. You are talking about the universe.
>>
>> >
>> >Does "the heavens" exist??
>>
>> The universe does, as independently proven.
>>
>> >
>> >I'm counting on you being a verified source...
>> >
>> >(you already verified the earth exists)
>> >
>> >
>> Sorry. I have personally proven nothing and thus cannot
>> verify anything.
>
>
>But you said: "There is verification of such existence."

I said I am aware of it. I did not say I verified it
personally.

>
>
>Are you saying you don't trust the ..."verification"????

No.

>
>
>
>
>i'm confused.
>
>
>
>I don't know if you are 'aware' that you sound very much like a ..God fearing person.

I have yet to see any valid evidence supporting the
existence of any god.

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

Okay, back to my reverse engineering...

you agree there was some verification for an
earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)

'In the beginning, God
created the heavens and
the earth.'

Next in reverse engineering is

"created"
'...created the heavens and
the earth.'

Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
was...
'created'???

cre·ate
/kre'at/
verb
bring (something) into existence.
https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=define+created

Attila < wrote:
>
> On Mon, 06 May 2024 12:41:29 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <66393269.4913@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Attila < wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 06 May 2024 08:35:16 -0700, The Starmaker
> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> >> <6638F8B4.4C4C@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Attila < wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
> >> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> >> >> <66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Of course there is a God...
> >> >> >but God doesn't leave
> >> >> >evidence for just a
> >> >> >select few to see..
> >> >> >God leaves
> >> >> >evidence for everyone
> >> >> >to see...
> >> >> >even a 3 year old.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The evidence that
> >> >> >God exist is
> >> >> >almost certaintly
> >> >> >overwhelming!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I'll give you one example.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >'In the beginning, God
> >> >> >created the heavens and
> >> >> >the earth.'
> >> >>
> >> >> Quote from an unverified source.
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Is there any evidence
> >> >> >that an earth exist????
> >> >>
> >> >> The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.
> >> >
> >> >It appears you believe the earth exists.
> >>
> >> There is verification of such existence.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I'm just doing a reverse engineering...
> >> >
> >> >'In the beginning, God
> >> >created the heavens and
> >> >the earth.'
> >>
> >> Quote from unverified source.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >How about "the heavens"? ...that would be the sky, our sun, the stars, moon and other planets.
> >>
> >> Nope. You are talking about the universe.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >Does "the heavens" exist??
> >>
> >> The universe does, as independently proven.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I'm counting on you being a verified source...
> >> >
> >> >(you already verified the earth exists)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Sorry. I have personally proven nothing and thus cannot
> >> verify anything.
> >
> >
> >But you said: "There is verification of such existence."
>
> I said I am aware of it. I did not say I verified it
> personally.
>
> >
> >
> >Are you saying you don't trust the ..."verification"????
>
> No.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >i'm confused.
> >
> >
> >
> >I don't know if you are 'aware' that you sound very much like a ..God fearing person.
>
> I have yet to see any valid evidence supporting the
> existence of any god.
>
> --
>
> Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
> and abhorrent.
> Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.
>
> Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
> as I prefer to call them
>
> The most dangerous enemies the United States has:
>
> Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
> supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
> Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
> Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
> Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
> Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
> have stepped over the line and are working against
> the country and what it stands for.
>
> Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.
>
> Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
> Go WOKE. Go broke.
> CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
> DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
> End all social engineering programs.
>
> I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
> face with what she has to say.
>
> Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
> turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
> Apple?
>
> Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
> and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
> It is the business of no one else.
>
> There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
> She want's it. All else is irrelevant
>
> I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.
>
> Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge the unchallengeable.

On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
<starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
<6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
>
>you agree there was some verification for an
>earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)

They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
them.

And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
we exist.

>
>'In the beginning, God
>created the heavens and
>the earth.'

You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
source as if is relevant. Why is that?

Since it is unverified it is useless.

>
>
>Next in reverse engineering is
>
>"created"
>'...created the heavens and
>the earth.'
>
>
>Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
>was...
>'created'???

Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
yet known.

>
>
>
>cre·ate
>/kre'at/
>verb
>bring (something) into existence.
>https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&source=hp&biw=&bih=&q=define+created
>
I am familiar with the definition.

This link explains what top posting is and why it is bad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Top-posting

https://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html#:~:text=Top%2Dposting%20makes%20it%20hard,looks%20bad%20due%20line%20wrapping.

>
>
>Attila < wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 06 May 2024 12:41:29 -0700, The Starmaker
>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <66393269.4913@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Attila < wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 06 May 2024 08:35:16 -0700, The Starmaker
>> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> >> <6638F8B4.4C4C@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Attila < wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Fri, 03 May 2024 09:19:26 -0700, The Starmaker
>> >> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> >> >> <66350E8E.7D2F@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Of course there is a God...
>> >> >> >but God doesn't leave
>> >> >> >evidence for just a
>> >> >> >select few to see..
>> >> >> >God leaves
>> >> >> >evidence for everyone
>> >> >> >to see...
>> >> >> >even a 3 year old.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The evidence that
>> >> >> >God exist is
>> >> >> >almost certaintly
>> >> >> >overwhelming!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >I'll give you one example.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >'In the beginning, God
>> >> >> >created the heavens and
>> >> >> >the earth.'
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Quote from an unverified source.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Is there any evidence
>> >> >> >that an earth exist????
>> >> >>
>> >> >> The existence of Earth is only evidence that Earth exists.
>> >> >
>> >> >It appears you believe the earth exists.
>> >>
>> >> There is verification of such existence.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm just doing a reverse engineering...
>> >> >
>> >> >'In the beginning, God
>> >> >created the heavens and
>> >> >the earth.'
>> >>
>> >> Quote from unverified source.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >How about "the heavens"? ...that would be the sky, our sun, the stars, moon and other planets.
>> >>
>> >> Nope. You are talking about the universe.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >Does "the heavens" exist??
>> >>
>> >> The universe does, as independently proven.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >I'm counting on you being a verified source...
>> >> >
>> >> >(you already verified the earth exists)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> Sorry. I have personally proven nothing and thus cannot
>> >> verify anything.
>> >
>> >
>> >But you said: "There is verification of such existence."
>>
>> I said I am aware of it. I did not say I verified it
>> personally.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Are you saying you don't trust the ..."verification"????
>>
>> No.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >i'm confused.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >I don't know if you are 'aware' that you sound very much like a ..God fearing person.
>>
>> I have yet to see any valid evidence supporting the
>> existence of any god.
>>

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

Attila < wrote:
>
> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
> >
> >you agree there was some verification for an
> >earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
>
> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
> them.
>
> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
> we exist.
>
> >
> >'In the beginning, God
> >created the heavens and
> >the earth.'
>
> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
>
> Since it is unverified it is useless.
>
> >
> >
> >Next in reverse engineering is
> >
> >"created"
> >'...created the heavens and
> >the earth.'
> >
> >
> >Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
> >was...
> >'created'???
>
> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
> yet known.

you wrote:
"creation took place"

That means you agree creation took place.

What's next on my reverse engineering list?

You already agreed on earth, heavens, and created...

Next is God...God created
the heavens and the earth.

What does the word "God" mean to you? How would you define the word...God?

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge the unchallengeable.

On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
<starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
<663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Attila < wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
>> >
>> >you agree there was some verification for an
>> >earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
>>
>> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
>> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
>> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
>> them.
>>
>> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
>> we exist.
>>
>> >
>> >'In the beginning, God
>> >created the heavens and
>> >the earth.'
>>
>> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
>> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
>>
>> Since it is unverified it is useless.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >Next in reverse engineering is
>> >
>> >"created"
>> >'...created the heavens and
>> >the earth.'
>> >
>> >
>> >Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
>> >was...
>> >'created'???
>>
>> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
>> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
>> yet known.
>
>you wrote:
>"creation took place"

"Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
occurred.

>
>
>That means you agree creation took place.

Wrong. See above.

>
>
>What's next on my reverse engineering list?
>
>
>You already agreed on earth, heavens, and created...

Nope. Nice try at putting words in my mouth.

>
>
>Next is God...God created
>the heavens and the earth.

If anything created anything the evidence indicates it could
have been space hamsters, beings from another dimension, or
a bored teenager with magical skills. Or something else.

IOW, there is no evidence to support anything.

I can keep repeating I have yet to see any valid evidence
supporting the existence of any god as long as you insist on
referring to one.

>
>
>What does the word "God" mean to you? How would you define the word...God?

1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the
creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral
authority; the supreme being.
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit
worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a
deity.

Definitions from Oxford Languages

I have seen no unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable and
credible evidence to support the existence of such an
entity.

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

On 8/05/2024 7:59 pm, Attila wrote:
> On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Attila < wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
>>>>
>>>> you agree there was some verification for an
>>>> earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
>>>
>>> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
>>> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
>>> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
>>> them.
>>>
>>> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
>>> we exist.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'In the beginning, God
>>>> created the heavens and
>>>> the earth.'
>>>
>>> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
>>> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
>>>
>>> Since it is unverified it is useless.
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Next in reverse engineering is
>>>>
>>>> "created"
>>>> '...created the heavens and
>>>> the earth.'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
>>>> was...
>>>> 'created'???
>>>
>>> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
>>> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
>>> yet known.
>>
>> you wrote:
>> "creation took place"
>
> "Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
> occurred.

Then obviously you don't exist, Goofy.

I see no evidence that you have a brain left.

Therefore, it is so.

Michael Christ

>
>>
>>
>> That means you agree creation took place.
>
> Wrong. See above.
>
>>
>>
>> What's next on my reverse engineering list?
>>
>>
>> You already agreed on earth, heavens, and created...
>
> Nope. Nice try at putting words in my mouth.
>
>>
>>
>> Next is God...God created
>> the heavens and the earth.
>
> If anything created anything the evidence indicates it could
> have been space hamsters, beings from another dimension, or
> a bored teenager with magical skills. Or something else.
>
> IOW, there is no evidence to support anything.
>
> I can keep repeating I have yet to see any valid evidence
> supporting the existence of any god as long as you insist on
> referring to one.
>
>>
>>
>> What does the word "God" mean to you? How would you define the word...God?
>
> 1.
> (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the
> creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral
> authority; the supreme being.
> 2.
> (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit
> worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a
> deity.
>
> Definitions from Oxford Languages
>
> I have seen no unambiguous, unrelated, verifiable and
> credible evidence to support the existence of such an
> entity.
>

--
God is God in all His Being.

Jesus is the everlasting Father, Jesus is God, Jesus is the Lord. John
10:30  I and Father are one. If you can't see that the Lord Jesus is the
everlasting Father you are not born again and can't see the Kingdom of God.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were
YET sinners, Christ died for us.

Jeremiah 10:23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it
is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

Psalms 53:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt
are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Proverbs 12:15 The way of a fool is right in his own eyes: but he that
hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.

"To seek your own will is to seek your own glory."

"If God is not first in everything He is not first in anything."

"What makes the bible the truth? The resonance (voice, the Person) of
God. When you find Him you have found the author."

"All men were born sinners. Why? Because all men were born not loving
God with all their heart, soul, and mind. An abomination. Therefore,
sin is not what you do; it is what you are."

"Compromise will condemn you."

"There are no sinners in Christ Jesus."

"My sons are born of Me. In them is no darkness at all."

"You can't learn righteousness. Haven't you had enough time already to
know that?"

"The way of truth is the testimony of life."

"I merely speak the truth, what is revealed to me, and the cards fall
where God intends."

"Nothing that is produced is produced without first being faith."

"You can only find proof of God through faith because that is how we all
live, by faith."

"It is not what you do that matters, it is how you treat Me."

"Keep going forward. Forget about the past. Lift up your head, look
ahead."

"You cannot be free and free indeed with guilt in your heart."

"Priority is everything."

"The truth doesn't need evidence, it is evidence."

"There is no greater possession a man has than his own will, to squander
it or to place it where it truly belongs."

"An atheist is a fool who thinks truth is found in living a lie."

"Saying "prove it" [as a foundation] is merely an ignorant straw man, to
an ignorant straw man."

"Wait, rest, be still, and know."

"No man can wash his own hands!!!"

"I find this in the Christianity religions: 'Nobody's perfect' they say,
and they use that as an excuse not to do what is perfect."

The Atheist: "They don't believe and put their faith in a Creator (the
obvious). So no evidence and proof is to be found!!"

"The world is the way it is because God can't compromise who He is."

"Man is not the centre of being."

"Man is incompatible with the natural world because of his sinful nature."

"And then the Lord said, "I see everything."

"Man has no greater idol than his own will."

"Where is God hiding? He isn't."

"If you don't keep all the scriptures, you can't keep any of them."

"You can't prove anything because everything depends on a person's
willingness to believe."

"Atheists are ultimately trying to be pointlessness, meaninglessness,
and purposelessness in their point, meaning, and purpose."

"The last day of creation will be the last day of time. God is always
full of hope."

"The veil of the temple was rent in twain, not to have a book pass
through it so that a sinner could play God."

"A phylactery does not a heart for God make. Not back then, and not today."

"No one in heaven is better (or higher) than what makes it heaven. Such
is the love of God."

"The definition of an atheist: A man full of bluster and bullshit
pretending he is the meaning of life."

"Free will is not power; it is the choice that I allow; that choice is
still according to my power," says the Lord.

What does a fool do? A fool looks for a "nothing" in a "something" in
order to explain the existence of existence.

"Unless you do all because He is who He is, all your religion is in vain."

"Every man is subject to God; He judges every man, and He is reality.
 What a gift in a fallen world!"

"Love MUST be a choice or it is nothing but a law!"

"Why were all men born sinners? So that God could reveal Himself, so
that we would behold the glory of God, and that we should bring forth
the glory of God"

"God does not and will not arbitrate for any man to love Him! If God
isn't everything to you, He is nothing to you where the rubber meets the
road."

"It is the unforgivable sin not to love God with all your heart, soul,
and mind. What do you have that is lasting? It is not so much being
punished; it is what you are left with."

"Love isn't worth anything without first a free will choice for God to
birth it in a man."

Attila < wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Attila < wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> >> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
> >> >
> >> >you agree there was some verification for an
> >> >earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
> >>
> >> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
> >> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
> >> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
> >> them.
> >>
> >> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
> >> we exist.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >'In the beginning, God
> >> >created the heavens and
> >> >the earth.'
> >>
> >> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
> >> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
> >>
> >> Since it is unverified it is useless.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Next in reverse engineering is
> >> >
> >> >"created"
> >> >'...created the heavens and
> >> >the earth.'
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
> >> >was...
> >> >'created'???
> >>
> >> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
> >> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
> >> yet known.
> >
> >you wrote:
> >"creation took place"
>
> "Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
> occurred.

Are we back to the earth doesn't exist in your mind again???

I know exactly where your mind is at...

You walk into a movie theater 1 minute before the movie ends...

you walk in, sit down and everyone else gets up and leaves..

you stare at the blank screen.

dats it.

you stare at ...nothiness.

you died.

--
The Starmaker -- To question the unquestionable, ask the unaskable,
to think the unthinkable, mention the unmentionable, say the unsayable,
and challenge the unchallengeable.

On Wed, 08 May 2024 21:12:05 -0700, The Starmaker
<starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
<663C4D15.32A5@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Attila < wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>> >Attila < wrote:
>> >>
>> >> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
>> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> >> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
>> >> >
>> >> >you agree there was some verification for an
>> >> >earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
>> >>
>> >> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
>> >> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
>> >> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
>> >> them.
>> >>
>> >> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
>> >> we exist.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >'In the beginning, God
>> >> >created the heavens and
>> >> >the earth.'
>> >>
>> >> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
>> >> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
>> >>
>> >> Since it is unverified it is useless.
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Next in reverse engineering is
>> >> >
>> >> >"created"
>> >> >'...created the heavens and
>> >> >the earth.'
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
>> >> >was...
>> >> >'created'???
>> >>
>> >> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
>> >> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
>> >> yet known.
>> >
>> >you wrote:
>> >"creation took place"
>>
>> "Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
>> occurred.
>
>Are we back to the earth doesn't exist in your mind again???

Since I never said that. no.

I said there is no supporting evidence that the Earth was
created or that any god exists.

I will modify my Earth response since there is supported
evidence that it was created at some point from matter that
was not included in the sun. There is no reason to think
any "creator" was involved at any point.

>
>
>I know exactly where your mind is at...
>
>
>You walk into a movie theater 1 minute before the movie ends...
>
>you walk in, sit down and everyone else gets up and leaves..
>
>you stare at the blank screen.
>
>dats it.
>
>
>you stare at ...nothiness.
>
>
>you died.

Actually when I die I expect the same lever of awareness
that I had before I was born.

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

Attila wrote:
> On Wed, 08 May 2024 21:12:05 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <663C4D15.32A5@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Attila < wrote:
>>> On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>> <663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Attila < wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> you agree there was some verification for an
>>>>>> earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
>>>>> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
>>>>> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
>>>>> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
>>>>> them.
>>>>>
>>>>> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
>>>>> we exist.
>>>>>
>>>>>> 'In the beginning, God
>>>>>> created the heavens and
>>>>>> the earth.'
>>>>> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
>>>>> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
>>>>>
>>>>> Since it is unverified it is useless.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Next in reverse engineering is
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "created"
>>>>>> '...created the heavens and
>>>>>> the earth.'
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
>>>>>> was...
>>>>>> 'created'???
>>>>> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
>>>>> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
>>>>> yet known.
>>>> you wrote:
>>>> "creation took place"
>>> "Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
>>> occurred.
>> Are we back to the earth doesn't exist in your mind again???
> Since I never said that. no.
>
> I said there is no supporting evidence that the Earth was
> created or that any god exists.
>
> I will modify my Earth response since there is supported
> evidence that it was created at some point from matter that
> was not included in the sun. There is no reason to think
> any "creator" was involved at any point.
>
>
>>
>> I know exactly where your mind is at...
>>
>>
>> You walk into a movie theater 1 minute before the movie ends...
>>
>> you walk in, sit down and everyone else gets up and leaves..
>>
>> you stare at the blank screen.
>>
>> dats it.
>>
>>
>> you stare at ...nothiness.
>>
>>
>> you died.
> Actually when I die I expect the same level of awareness
> that I had before I was born.
>
>

https://auslink.info/video/tyson_death.mp4

--
“Atheism is the birth right of all human, remember that!”- hhyapster 7.4.23

"Christian beliefs fail against reason, facts, and knowledge"

"Religion is not about truth, it's about lifestyle"

"God is a convenient explanation for what man does not understand.
The less that's inexplicable, the less need for a 'God' explanation."

"The problem with theism is that it never remains within
the realm of belief, but invariably proceeds to assertion"

On Thu, 9 May 2024 23:50:31 +1000, Maximus
<gladiator@colosseum.rome> in alt.atheism with message-id
<la42laFgid5U1@mid.individual.net> wrote:

>Attila wrote:
>> On Wed, 08 May 2024 21:12:05 -0700, The Starmaker
>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>> <663C4D15.32A5@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Attila < wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>> <663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Attila < wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
>>>>>> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
>>>>>> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> you agree there was some verification for an
>>>>>>> earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
>>>>>> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
>>>>>> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
>>>>>> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
>>>>>> we exist.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'In the beginning, God
>>>>>>> created the heavens and
>>>>>>> the earth.'
>>>>>> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
>>>>>> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since it is unverified it is useless.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Next in reverse engineering is
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "created"
>>>>>>> '...created the heavens and
>>>>>>> the earth.'
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
>>>>>>> was...
>>>>>>> 'created'???
>>>>>> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
>>>>>> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
>>>>>> yet known.
>>>>> you wrote:
>>>>> "creation took place"
>>>> "Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
>>>> occurred.
>>> Are we back to the earth doesn't exist in your mind again???
>> Since I never said that. no.
>>
>> I said there is no supporting evidence that the Earth was
>> created or that any god exists.
>>
>> I will modify my Earth response since there is supported
>> evidence that it was created at some point from matter that
>> was not included in the sun. There is no reason to think
>> any "creator" was involved at any point.
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I know exactly where your mind is at...
>>>
>>>
>>> You walk into a movie theater 1 minute before the movie ends...
>>>
>>> you walk in, sit down and everyone else gets up and leaves..
>>>
>>> you stare at the blank screen.
>>>
>>> dats it.
>>>
>>>
>>> you stare at ...nothiness.
>>>
>>>
>>> you died.
>> Actually when I die I expect the same level of awareness
>> that I had before I was born.
>>
>>
>
>https://auslink.info/video/tyson_death.mp4

It sounds like our opinions basically agree.

--

Some of the Republican positions I find disgusting
and abhorrent.
Most of the Democratic positions I find terrifying.

Whatever it takes - Stop the Democrats. Or the Dims
as I prefer to call them

The most dangerous enemies the United States has:

Biden the Senile Bastard and his Bitch and
supported by the Sluts and Pimps including
Ilhan Omar, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez,
Ayanna Pressley, Rashida Tlaib, Jamaal Bowman,
Cori Bush, Adam Schiff, Maxine Waters, Jerry Nadler,
Chuck Schumer, Nancy Pelosi and Cory Booker. They
have stepped over the line and are working against
the country and what it stands for.

Do not work with them but oppose everything they attempt.

Stop the Green Raw Deal! I dare call it treason.
Go WOKE. Go broke.
CRT - Criminals Recruiting Thugs
DEI - Dumbass Egotistical Idiocy
End all social engineering programs.

I don't know how Comical Karine can still hold a straight
face with what she has to say.

Did the last sane person leaving California remember to
turn off the lights? Did he do the same for the Rotten
Apple?

Abortion should be like any other medical procedure
and be the decision of the patient and the doctor.
It is the business of no one else.

There is only one reason for a woman to get an abortion.
She want's it. All else is irrelevant

I support a Pro-Choice Constitutional Amendment.

Don't build a wall, build a kill zone.

Attila < wrote:
>
> On Tue, 07 May 2024 23:52:13 -0700, The Starmaker
> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> <663B211D.EF4@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> >Attila < wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, 06 May 2024 22:02:30 -0700, The Starmaker
> >> <starmaker@ix.netcom.com> in alt.atheism with message-id
> >> <6639B5E6.4553@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Okay, back to my reverse engineering...
> >> >
> >> >you agree there was some verification for an
> >> >earth and the heavens (you call it the universe)
> >>
> >> They exist as proven by any number of verifiable and
> >> repeatable experiments. Since they provide the structure
> >> for our lives it would be a bit difficult to exist without
> >> them.
> >>
> >> And no, I am not getting into a dialog about whether or not
> >> we exist.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >'In the beginning, God
> >> >created the heavens and
> >> >the earth.'
> >>
> >> You keep repeating a meaningless quote from an unverified
> >> source as if is relevant. Why is that?
> >>
> >> Since it is unverified it is useless.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Next in reverse engineering is
> >> >
> >> >"created"
> >> >'...created the heavens and
> >> >the earth.'
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Do you agree the universe/heavens and the earth
> >> >was...
> >> >'created'???
> >>
> >> Not necessarily. And especially I have no idea how such
> >> possible creation took place. Those are things that are not
> >> yet known.
> >
> >you wrote:
> >"creation took place"
>
> "Possible creation" I do not concede such creation
> occurred.
>
> >
> >
> >That means you agree creation took place.
>
> Wrong. See above.
>
> >
> >
> >What's next on my reverse engineering list?
> >
> >
> >You already agreed on earth, heavens, and created...
>
> Nope. Nice try at putting words in my mouth.
>
> >
> >
> >Next is God...God created
> >the heavens and the earth.
>
> If anything created anything the evidence indicates it could
> have been space hamsters, beings from another dimension, or
> a bored teenager with magical skills. Or something else.
>
> IOW, there is no evidence to support anything.
>
> I can keep repeating I have yet to see any valid evidence
> supporting the existence of any god as long as you insist on
> referring to one.
>
> >
> >
> >What does the word "God" mean to you? How would you define the word...God?
>
> 1.
> (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the
> creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral
> authority; the supreme being.