Hi,

I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking Soda
Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a fresh
and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's possibly
more abrasive than other toothpastes.

Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?

--
Ottavio Caruso

On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking Soda
> Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a fresh
> and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's possibly
> more abrasive than other toothpastes.
>
> Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
> times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?
>

Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it. So IF your brushing
technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.

Steve

On 26/06/2021 18:07, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking
>> Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a
>> fresh and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's
>> possibly more abrasive than other toothpastes.
>>
>> Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
>> times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?
>>
>
> Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
> ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it.  So IF your brushing
> technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.
>
> Steve

According to
https://www.williamsonperio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Toothpaste-Abrasiveness-Ranked-by-RDA.pdf

and
http://kincardinedentistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Abrasiveness-Index-of-Common-Toothpastes.pdf

it is listed as highly abrasive.

--
Ottavio Caruso

On 6/26/2021 6:38 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> On 26/06/2021 18:07, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking
>>> Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves a
>>> fresh and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's
>>> possibly more abrasive than other toothpastes.
>>>
>>> Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
>>> times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?
>>>
>>
>> Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
>> ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it.  So IF your
>> brushing technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.
>>
>> Steve
>
> According to
> https://www.williamsonperio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Toothpaste-Abrasiveness-Ranked-by-RDA.pdf
>
>
> and
> http://kincardinedentistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Abrasiveness-Index-of-Common-Toothpastes.pdf
>
>
> it is listed as highly abrasive.
>

According to the safety data sheet of a similar product the abrasive is
probably "Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free". I do not think
it is as abrasive as the sand it is made from. If it were it would wear
out your enamel.

A toothpaste abrasive should wear away plaque but not tooth enamel.

I have an old bridge that originally had an acrylic tooth-like coating
which is no longer there due to brushing which wore it away. Fortunately
on the side of the mouth it is not noticeable. I used to use toothpaste
to polish an acrylic watch lens and people have used toothpaste to
polish plastic headlight lenses. It is abrasive enough to remove a
fogged layer.

On 6/27/2021 6:51 PM, Frank wrote:
> On 6/26/2021 6:38 PM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
>> On 26/06/2021 18:07, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>> On 6/25/2021 3:49 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I've used Arm & Hammer Advance White Extreme Whitening with Baking
>>>> Soda Toothpaste for a while. It's cheap. It does the job. It leaves
>>>> a fresh and clean feel in my mouth, but it has baking soda and it's
>>>> possibly more abrasive than other toothpastes.
>>>>
>>>> Is it ok to brush your teeth with such an abrasive toothpaste a few
>>>> times a day or should I cycle it with a less aggressive toothpaste?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Baking soda is really not very abrasive; I just looked up the
>>> ingredients and there are no other abrasives in it.  So IF your
>>> brushing technique is good using it shouldn't be a problem.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>> According to
>> https://www.williamsonperio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Toothpaste-Abrasiveness-Ranked-by-RDA.pdf
>>
>>
>> and
>> http://kincardinedentistry.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Abrasiveness-Index-of-Common-Toothpastes.pdf
>>
>>
>> it is listed as highly abrasive.
>>
>
> According to the safety data sheet of a similar product the abrasive is
> probably "Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free".  I do not think
> it is as abrasive as the sand it is made from.  If it were it would wear
> out your enamel.
>
> A toothpaste abrasive should wear away plaque but not tooth enamel.
>
> I have an old bridge that originally had an acrylic tooth-like coating
> which is no longer there due to brushing which wore it away. Fortunately
> on the side of the mouth it is not noticeable. I used to use toothpaste
> to polish an acrylic watch lens and people have used toothpaste to
> polish plastic headlight lenses.  It is abrasive enough to remove a
> fogged layer.

Somehow when I read the ingredients list, I didn't see silica listed.
Either that list omitted it or my eyes are failing.
In any case, silica has to be abrasive. There would be no other reason
to include it.
As far as acrylic veneer crown and bridge, they were already well on
their way out by the time we had to process some in dental school in the
early-mid '70s--the "Ceramco" porcelain fused to metal process was
introduced in the mid-late '60s, though it took a while to catch on. We
were taught that natural bristle toothbrushes were less abrasive on
acrylic veneers, but they aren't terribly easy to find. And overall, I
think most dentists would prefer their patients use nylon-bristle brushes.

Steve

On 6/28/2021 1:06 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free

It was copied from an SDS for one of their whitening toothpastes and how
it is made is described in this Wiki article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica

My acrylic veneer bridge, I believe, was pre-1970.

I have two bridges over 55 years old and have been surprised how long
they have lasted.

I lost a third bridge on front teeth I mentioned here a while back
replaced by a flexible acrylic bridge and never brush it with toothpaste
as I know it is abrasive to acrylic.

Frank

On 6/28/2021 6:46 PM, Frank wrote:
> On 6/28/2021 1:06 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free
>
> It was copied from an SDS for one of their whitening toothpastes and how
> it is made is described in this Wiki article:
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica
>
> My acrylic veneer bridge, I believe, was pre-1970.
>
> I have two bridges over 55 years old and have been surprised how long
> they have lasted.
>
> I lost a third bridge on front teeth I mentioned here a while back
> replaced by a flexible acrylic bridge and never brush it with toothpaste
> as I know it is abrasive to acrylic.
>
> Frank
>
>

I had a patient--I'm thinking in the early 2000s--this gentleman in his
80s. He'd been in a concentration camp during the war. When he was
liberated, he said he'd spent a year in a Swiss hospital. They did 4
large gold/acrylic veneer bridges in each quadrant of his mouth. Now 60
years later, the acrylic was all worn; the gum had shrunken back so you
could almost put your finger under them.
One of the teeth holding one of the bridges was rotten--we replaced it.
When that was finished, I asked him about the other 3--he refused to
replace them. "If I did, I'd be too beautiful," he said. "My wife would
get suspicious."

Steve

On 28/06/2021 18:06, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> silica has to be abrasive.  There would be no other reason to include it.

I just wonder what makes a toothpaste abrasive. What ingredients should
I avoid? I believe silica has to be the most abrasive, correct me if I'm
wrong.

--
Ottavio Caruso

On 7/1/2021 9:39 AM, Ottavio Caruso wrote:
> On 28/06/2021 18:06, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>> silica has to be abrasive.  There would be no other reason to include it.
>
>
> I just wonder what makes a toothpaste abrasive. What ingredients should
> I avoid? I believe silica has to be the most abrasive, correct me if I'm
> wrong.
>

I have been pondering the abrasiveness of fumed silica which is made
from sand which is very abrasive.

There is a Mohs' hardness scale where you see diamond on top as the most
abrasive:

https://www.reade.com/reade-resources/reference-educational/reade-reference-chart-particle-property-briefings/32-mohs-hardness-of-abrasives

Looking up acrylic I see Mohs is 3-4 so anything with higher Mohs would
abraid it. Tooth enamel appears to be 5.

Personally I would avoid using toothpaste with fumed silica.

On 6/29/2021 4:16 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 6/28/2021 6:46 PM, Frank wrote:
>> On 6/28/2021 1:06 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
>>> Silica, amorphous, fumed, crystalline-free
>>
>> It was copied from an SDS for one of their whitening toothpastes and
>> how it is made is described in this Wiki article:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fumed_silica
>>
>> My acrylic veneer bridge, I believe, was pre-1970.
>>
>> I have two bridges over 55 years old and have been surprised how long
>> they have lasted.
>>
>> I lost a third bridge on front teeth I mentioned here a while back
>> replaced by a flexible acrylic bridge and never brush it with
>> toothpaste as I know it is abrasive to acrylic.
>>
>> Frank
>>
>>
>
>
> I had a patient--I'm thinking in the early 2000s--this gentleman in his
> 80s.  He'd been in a concentration camp during the war.  When he was
> liberated, he said he'd spent a year in a Swiss hospital.  They did 4
> large gold/acrylic veneer bridges in each quadrant of his mouth.  Now 60
> years later, the acrylic was all worn; the gum had shrunken back so you
> could almost put your finger under them.
> One of the teeth holding one of the bridges was rotten--we replaced it.
>  When that was finished, I asked him about the other 3--he refused to
> replace them. "If I did, I'd be too beautiful," he said. "My wife would
> get suspicious."
>
> Steve

Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
would have held up I would have gotten implants. Now over 80, not sure
it is worth it.

I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85 and
after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass. Turns out he lived to 99.

On 7/1/2021 10:55 AM, Frank wrote:

>
> Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
> would have held up I would have gotten implants.  Now over 80, not sure
> it is worth it.
>
> I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85 and
> after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass.  Turns out he lived to 99.

I wouldn't rule out implants based on age alone. It becomes more
worthwhile of course if you don't function well with your partial, and
if a new partial would not be expected to improve your function.

Steve

On 7/1/2021 1:11 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 7/1/2021 10:55 AM, Frank wrote:
>
>>
>> Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
>> would have held up I would have gotten implants.  Now over 80, not
>> sure it is worth it.
>>
>> I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85
>> and after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass.  Turns out he
>> lived to 99.
>
> I wouldn't rule out implants based on age alone. It becomes more
> worthwhile of course if you don't function well with your partial, and
> if a new partial would not be expected to improve your function.
>
> Steve

My partial works fine except for biting into something like a apple.
The flexible acrylic is fine and better than the previous one with wires
going around back teeth. Every now and then I use a little adhesive if
eating a sandwich.

My brother had problems with his and got implants and now I hear one of
the implants failed and he is having extra work done.

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 5:34:21 AM UTC+12, Frank wrote:
> On 7/1/2021 1:11 PM, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > On 7/1/2021 10:55 AM, Frank wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Had I known maybe 20 years ago when I got a partial that my bridges
> >> would have held up I would have gotten implants. Now over 80, not
> >> sure it is worth it.
> >>
> >> I might have mentioned a friend's brother that got them about age 85
> >> and after work fully done needed a quadruple bypass. Turns out he
> >> lived to 99.
> >
> > I wouldn't rule out implants based on age alone. It becomes more
> > worthwhile of course if you don't function well with your partial, and
> > if a new partial would not be expected to improve your function.
> >
> > Steve
> My partial works fine except for biting into something like a apple.
> The flexible acrylic is fine and better than the previous one with wires
> going around back teeth. Every now and then I use a little adhesive if
> eating a sandwich.
>
> My brother had problems with his and got implants and now I hear one of
> the implants failed and he is having extra work done.
What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?

On 7/1/2021 5:54 PM, Brian Sandle wrote:
> What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?
>

There is an equilibrium of ions moving in and out at the enamel surface;
a persistent increase in concentration of calcium and phosphate ions
will tend to increase mineralization of enamel; a relative paucity of
ions, or a decrease in pH, will tend to move ions out of the enamel surface.
After cleaning, the first thing that collects on the surface is a
protein layer known as salivary pellicle. If left undisturbed, this
will be colonized by bacteria of a variety of species. Most bacteria
implicated in decay require oxygen; many implicated in periodontal
disease (not all) do not. For this reason, decay-causing bacteria
appear more quickly than perio d. causing bacteria.
Bacteria can utilize calcium ions too, but they process it within the
plaque and form dental calculus (tartar); it does not get incorporated
in the surface of the teeth.
Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
form fluorapatite; it is more resistant to dissolution by bacterial
acids, which accounts for its anti-decay properties.

Steve

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 1:10:32 PM UTC+12, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> On 7/1/2021 5:54 PM, Brian Sandle wrote:
> > What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?
> >
> There is an equilibrium of ions moving in and out at the enamel surface;
> a persistent increase in concentration of calcium and phosphate ions
> will tend to increase mineralization of enamel; a relative paucity of
> ions, or a decrease in pH, will tend to move ions out of the enamel surface.
> After cleaning, the first thing that collects on the surface is a
> protein layer known as salivary pellicle. If left undisturbed, this
> will be colonized by bacteria of a variety of species. Most bacteria
> implicated in decay require oxygen; many implicated in periodontal
> disease (not all) do not. For this reason, decay-causing bacteria
> appear more quickly than perio d. causing bacteria.
> Bacteria can utilize calcium ions too, but they process it within the
> plaque and form dental calculus (tartar); it does not get incorporated
> in the surface of the teeth.
> Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
> form fluorapatite; it is more resistant to dissolution by bacterial
> acids, which accounts for its anti-decay properties.
>
> Steve
Are you able to access this?:
https://groups.google.com/g/sci.med.dentistry/c/Dv2V3Kd5FrE/m/bX_qCHVZ0noJ

On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 11:15:33 PM UTC+12, Brian Sandle wrote:
> On Friday, July 2, 2021 at 1:10:32 PM UTC+12, Steven Bornfeld wrote:
> > On 7/1/2021 5:54 PM, Brian Sandle wrote:
> > > What is known about the biochemistry of how calcium, phosphate, magnesium, fluoride are ordered to form apatite to repair tooth surface? Can it just happen randomly or might bacterial colonies of some types help as they develop layers on the tooth surface? Though I guess the first layer to develop after abrasive brushing would contain the acid forming Strep mutans?
> > >
> > There is an equilibrium of ions moving in and out at the enamel surface;
> > a persistent increase in concentration of calcium and phosphate ions
> > will tend to increase mineralization of enamel; a relative paucity of
> > ions, or a decrease in pH, will tend to move ions out of the enamel surface.
> > After cleaning, the first thing that collects on the surface is a
> > protein layer known as salivary pellicle. If left undisturbed, this
> > will be colonized by bacteria of a variety of species. Most bacteria
> > implicated in decay require oxygen; many implicated in periodontal
> > disease (not all) do not. For this reason, decay-causing bacteria
> > appear more quickly than perio d. causing bacteria.
> > Bacteria can utilize calcium ions too, but they process it within the
> > plaque and form dental calculus (tartar); it does not get incorporated
> > in the surface of the teeth.
> > Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
> > form fluorapatite; it is more resistant to dissolution by bacterial
> > acids, which accounts for its anti-decay properties.
> >
> > Steve
> Are you able to access this?:
> https://groups.google.com/g/sci.med.dentistry/c/Dv2V3Kd5FrE/m/bX_qCHVZ0noJ
Steve wrote: "Fluoride replaces hydroxyl groups in hydroxyapatite of the enamel to
form fluorapatite"
Living organisms may concentrate minerals. You may have heard how seaweed concentrates iodine very much.
We need more experimentation how bacteria in mature dental plaque may concentrate fluoride and other minerals (magnesium, calcium, phosphorus on the tooth surface to concentrations greater than that of fluoridated water. And do it from saliva whose fluoride content is lower than that of fluoridated water.