Does 野分 in Chinese mean 颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?

in Japanese, 野分き, 野分, のわき (or Nowake) means that.

On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>
>     Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?

Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates it as
"Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.

>
> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>

Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing blast
of late autumn'.
So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.

Now: Who is asking this, and why?

On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:

> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>
>>     Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>
> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates it as
> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.
>
>>
>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>>
>
> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing blast
> of late autumn'.
> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.
>

> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and

(Etym.) it is so-named because The field-grass (野の草) gets
Separated.

日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分（のわき、のわけ）といい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を見ることが出来る。

日本を含む北西太平洋・アジアでは台風またはタイフーン(typhoon)と呼ばれている現象は、アメリカなどの北中米ではハリケーン(hurricane)、その他の地域ではサイクロン(cyclone)と呼ばれています。
そのどれもが熱帯低気圧の構造を持っているという意味では、これらは地域を問わず同一の気象現象に分類できます。

--------- it says... (typhoon) (hurricane) (cyclone)
belong to the same Category.

On 13/09/2024 7:51 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:
>
>> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>
>>>      Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>
>> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates it as
>> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
>> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
>> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.
>>
>>>
>>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>>>
>>
>> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing blast
>> of late autumn'.
>> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.
>>
>
>
>
>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
>
>
> (Etym.) it is so-named   because  The field-grass (野の草)  gets Separated.
>
>
> 日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分（のわき、のわけ）と
> いい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を見ることが出来
> る。

Possible, but could be folk etymology.

> 日本を含む北西太平洋・アジアでは台風またはタイフーン(typhoon)と呼ばれて
> いる現象は、アメリカなどの北中米ではハリケーン(hurricane)、その他の地域
> ではサイクロン(cyclone)と呼ばれています。
> そのどれもが熱帯低気圧の構造を持っているという意味では、これらは地域を問
> わず同一の気象現象に分類できます。
>
>           --------- it says...  (typhoon)   (hurricane)   (cyclone)
> belong to the same Category.

Yes, they are different regional words for the same thing. It says
nothing about "nowaki".

On 9/12/2024 6:17 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 13/09/2024 7:51 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>>
>>>>      Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>>
>>> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates it as
>>> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
>>> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
>>> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing blast
>>> of late autumn'.
>>> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
>>
>>
>> (Etym.) it is so-named   because  The field-grass (野の草)  gets
>> Separated.
>>
>>
>> 日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分（のわき、のわけ）
>> と いい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を見ること
>> が出来 る。
>
> Possible, but could be folk etymology.

----------- Do you have a better idea , or a hunch?

>
>> 日本を含む北西太平洋・アジアでは台風またはタイフーン(typhoon)と呼ばれ
>> て いる現象は、アメリカなどの北中米ではハリケーン(hurricane)、その他の
>> 地域 ではサイクロン(cyclone)と呼ばれています。
>> そのどれもが熱帯低気圧の構造を持っているという意味では、これらは地域を
>> 問 わず同一の気象現象に分類できます。
>>
>>            --------- it says...  (typhoon)   (hurricane)   (cyclone)
>> belong to the same Category.
>
> Yes, they are different regional words for the same thing. It says
> nothing about "nowaki".

(Jp) Nowake is a (typhoon) (hurricane) (cyclone) --- possibly small-scale

On 9/12/2024 11:12 AM, mwgamera wrote:
> On 2024-09-12, HenHanna wrote:
>> Does 野分 in Chinese mean 颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>
>> in Japanese, 野分き, 野分, のわき (or Nowake) means that.

>
> I suspect the context is the title of one of the parts of Genji Monogatari
> where it was translated as ‘the typhoon’ into English.
>
> On the surface the word looks like a Japanese coining; like a literal
> ‘field-splitting [wind]’. And the etymology given by Digital Daijisen is:
>> 《野の草を風が強く吹き分ける意》
>
> Why should it mean anything in Chinese? Perhaps it might appear for the same
> reason Google Translate went with “nowaki” in English, ie. as an untranslated
> foreign term.
>

野分 · late autumn (fall) windstorm in the countryside; typhoon, esp. one
that blows from the 210th to the 220th day of the year

On 13/09/2024 2:15 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>
> On 9/12/2024 6:17 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 13/09/2024 7:51 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>      Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>>>
>>>> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates it as
>>>> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
>>>> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
>>>> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing
>>>> blast
>>>> of late autumn'.
>>>> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point' and
>>>
>>>
>>> (Etym.) it is so-named   because  The field-grass (野の草)  gets
>>> Separated.
>>>
>>>
>>> 日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分（のわき、のわ
>>> け） と いい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を見
>>> ること が出来 る。
>>
>> Possible, but could be folk etymology.
>
>
>         -----------  Do you have a better idea , or a hunch?
>

The use of the character 分 definitely suggests a connection to 分ける
wakeru 'divide, separate'. But the form as given in the dictionary is
nowaki. The writer of the above gives another form, nowake. But I don't
know whether this is an attested variant, or a purely hypothetical
earlier form from which nowaki might have been derived. I could equally
well see the -waki as derived from waku 'boil, seeth, be in an uproar'.

>
>
>>
>>> 日本を含む北西太平洋・アジアでは台風またはタイフーン(typhoon)と呼ばれ
>>> て いる現象は、アメリカなどの北中米ではハリケーン(hurricane)、その他
>>> の 地域 ではサイクロン(cyclone)と呼ばれています。
>>> そのどれもが熱帯低気圧の構造を持っているという意味では、これらは地域
>>> を 問 わず同一の気象現象に分類できます。
>>>
>>>            --------- it says...  (typhoon)   (hurricane)   (cyclone)
>>> belong to the same Category.
>>
>> Yes, they are different regional words for the same thing. It says
>> nothing about "nowaki".
>
>
> (Jp) Nowake is a (typhoon) (hurricane) (cyclone) --- possibly small-scale
>

No it's not. It's a blast/gust of cold wind. If you want to say it's in
the "same category", that category would have to be as broad as "bad
weather".

On 13/09/2024 3:01 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
> On 9/12/2024 11:12 AM, mwgamera wrote:
>> On 2024-09-12, HenHanna wrote:
>>>       Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>>
>>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>
>
>>
>> I suspect the context is the title of one of the parts of Genji
>> Monogatari
>> where it was translated as ‘the typhoon’ into English.
>>
>> On the surface the word looks like a Japanese coining; like a literal
>> ‘field-splitting [wind]’. And the etymology given by Digital Daijisen is:
>>> 《野の草を風が強く吹き分ける意》
>>
>> Why should it mean anything in Chinese?   Perhaps it might appear for
>> the same
>> reason Google Translate went with “nowaki” in English, ie. as an
>> untranslated
>> foreign term.
>>
>
>
> 野分 · late autumn (fall) windstorm in the countryside;  typhoon, esp.
> one that blows from the 210th to the 220th day of the year
>

And where did that come from?

On 9/13/2024 4:08 AM, Ross Clark wrote:
> On 13/09/2024 2:15 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>
>> On 9/12/2024 6:17 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
>>> On 13/09/2024 7:51 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates it as
>>>>> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
>>>>> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
>>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point'
>>>>> and
>>>>> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing
>>>>> blast
>>>>> of late autumn'.
>>>>> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part; point'
>>>>> and
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (Etym.) it is so-named   because  The field-grass (野の草)  gets
>>>> Separated.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分（のわき、のわ
>>>> け） と いい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を見
>>>> ること が出来 る。
>>>
>>> Possible, but could be folk etymology.
>>
>>
>>          -----------  Do you have a better idea , or a hunch?
>>
>
> The use of the character 分 definitely suggests a connection to 分ける
> wakeru 'divide, separate'. But the form as given in the dictionary is
> nowaki. The writer of the above gives another form, nowake. But I don't
> know whether this is an attested variant, or a purely hypothetical
> earlier form from which nowaki might have been derived. I could equally
> well see the -waki as derived from waku 'boil, seeth, be in an uproar'.
>

----------- it's not related to Boiling (as you can see below)

i think .... Nowaki is the older reading than Nowake

in the last 100 years, Nowake is more common

https://dictionary.sanseido-publ.co.jp/column/kisetsu03

季節のことば
の わき 【野分】
筆者: 三省堂編修所 2007年9月3日

どういう意味？

「二百十日」（バックナンバー8/31）でも書きましたが、『大辞林
第三版』には「〔野の草を吹き分ける風、の意〕①二百十日、二百二十日前後に吹く暴風。台風。あるいはその余波の風。また、秋から初冬にかけて吹く強い風。のわけ。のわきのかぜ。［季語］秋。《吹飛ばす石は浅間の
─ かな / 芭蕉 》」とあります。

もう少し詳しく…

『全訳読解古語辞典
第三版』では、語釈のあとに「読解のために」というコラムがあります。そこには「中古の作品では、野分の強風ぶりとともに、その風情も語られている。野分の風は、肌寒さや心細さを感じさせ、人恋しくさせるものであった」として、「源氏物語」や「和泉式部日記」の例が挙がっています。

いつごろに適したことば？ -----------
『大辞林』にあるように、二百十日（9月1日ごろ）や二百二十日（9月11日ごろ）のころ、台風が多いころに使われます。

時候のあいさつに使うなら… 「野分の候」「野分の砌（みぎり）」など

ちなみに…

『全訳読解古語辞典』によると「野分」とは「秋に吹く暴風」と解説したうえで、「［関連語］類義語に「嵐（あらし）」があり、特に季節を限定しない暴風の意」とあります。
現代では、秋に吹く暴風といったら「台風」と言うのが一般的でしょう。時候のあいさつで使う場合は、同じように「台風の候」という書き方もあるようです。少し落ち着いたころには「台風一過
秋晴れもすがすがしく」というふうに書き出しに使うのもいいでしょう。

On 14/09/2024 3:12 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
> On 9/13/2024 4:08 AM, Ross Clark wrote:
>> On 13/09/2024 2:15 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>
>>> On 9/12/2024 6:17 PM, Ross Clark wrote:
>>>> On 13/09/2024 7:51 a.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 12 Sep 2024 11:16:40 +0000, Ross Clark wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/09/2024 6:53 p.m., HenHanna wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Does 野分 in Chinese mean  颱風 (台風, Typhoon) ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Google Translate gives a reading yē fēn for 野分, but translates
>>>>>> it as
>>>>>> "Nowaki". Which is very odd because "Nowaki" is not an English word.
>>>>>> My small Ch-Eng dictionary does not seem to have yē fēn in it.
>>>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part;
>>>>>> point' and
>>>>>> various other things. Not much help if we can't find the combination.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> in Japanese,   野分き, 野分, のわき  (or Nowake)  means that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Small Jp-Eng dictionary has nowaki 野分 'a wintry blast; a searing
>>>>>> blast
>>>>>> of late autumn'.
>>>>>> So I don't think either of these is a synonym of 台風.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> 野 means something like 'wild'. 分 can mean 'separate; part;
>>>>>> point' and
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (Etym.) it is so-named   because  The field-grass (野の草)  gets
>>>>> Separated.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 日本では、古くは野の草を吹いて分けるところから、野分（のわき、のわ
>>>>> け） と いい、11世紀初頭の『枕草子』『源氏物語』などにもその表現を
>>>>> 見 ること が出来 る。
>>>>
>>>> Possible, but could be folk etymology.
>>>
>>>
>>>          -----------  Do you have a better idea , or a hunch?
>>>
>>
>> The use of the character 分 definitely suggests a connection to 分ける
>> wakeru 'divide, separate'. But the form as given in the dictionary is
>> nowaki. The writer of the above gives another form, nowake. But I
>> don't know whether this is an attested variant, or a purely
>> hypothetical earlier form from which nowaki might have been derived. I
>> could equally well see the -waki as derived from waku 'boil, seeth, be
>> in an uproar'.
>>
>
>
>           ----------- it's not related to Boiling (as you can see below)

No, it doesn't say that below.

>
>
> i think ....   Nowaki is the older reading than Nowake
>
>                    in the last 100 years,  Nowake is more common

That might support my alternative etymology. But who is "I" here?

>
> https://dictionary.sanseido-publ.co.jp/column/kisetsu03
>
> 季節のことば
> の わき 【野分】
> 筆者: 三省堂編修所    2007年9月3日
>
>
> どういう意味？
>
> 「二百十日」（バックナンバー8/31）でも書きましたが、『大辞林 第三版』に
> は「〔野の草を吹き分ける風、の意〕①二百十日、二百二十日前後に吹く暴風。
> 台風。あるいはその余波の風。また、秋から初冬にかけて吹く強い風。のわけ。
> のわきのかぜ。［季語］秋。《吹飛ばす石は浅間の ─ かな / 芭蕉 》」とあります。
>
> もう少し詳しく…
>
> 『全訳読解古語辞典 第三版』では、語釈のあとに「読解のために」というコラ
> ムがあります。そこには「中古の作品では、野分の強風ぶりとともに、その風情
> も語られている。野分の風は、肌寒さや心細さを感じさせ、人恋しくさせるもの
> であった」として、「源氏物語」や「和泉式部日記」の例が挙がっています。
>
> いつごろに適したことば？  ----------- 『大辞林』にあるように、二百十日
> （9月1日ごろ）や二百二十日（9月11日ごろ）のころ、台風が多いころに使われ
> ます。
>
>
> 時候のあいさつに使うなら…      「野分の候」「野分の砌（みぎり）」など
>
>
> ちなみに…
>
> 『全訳読解古語辞典』によると「野分」とは「秋に吹く暴風」と解説したうえ
> で、「［関連語］類義語に「嵐（あらし）」があり、特に季節を限定しない暴風
> の意」とあります。
> 現代では、秋に吹く暴風といったら「台風」と言うのが一般的でしょう。時候の
> あいさつで使う場合は、同じように「台風の候」という書き方もあるようです。
> 少し落ち着いたころには「台風一過 秋晴れもすがすがしく」というふうに書き
> 出しに使うのもいいでしょう。
>

OK, let's go back and answer your original question:

野分 doesn't seem to mean anything in Chinese.

Nowaki (or perhaps nowake) is a Japanese word. Its etymology is unclear.

It refers to a strong, cold wind. It may (at least sometimes) be used to
refer to a typhoon. But it is not a synonym of taifū.