On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 18:10:17 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>I'm going to be contrarian here and recommend Ultima III as the one Ultima
>game people should play to introduce them to the series. Sure, Ultima
>IV and V have a better story, but by modern standards the story elements
>of the games are so thin, it's hard to see that except by comparision to
>the earlier games. I think the third game in the series shows off the
>the basic mechanics and style of the the first five Ultima games, what
>actually attracted people to play these games, without the distraction of
>a "revolutionary" story that still only makes up a tiny part of the game.

I'd nominate Ultima 3 over Ultima 1. I don't disagree with anything
you are saying here. It is just that Ultima 4's concept of following
the virtues was so different from other RPGs of the time. It was a
major focus of the game. You always had to think about your actions or
you would not be able to finish the game. I never played another RPG
quite like it. Not even other Ultimas.

But I still just liked Ultima 5 and 7 more when all is said and done.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:23:42 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:

>I think I well give it a go just to see why it's a game that gets
>mentioned so often!

Make sure you take Spalls advice and play the updated version with
better graphics and midi sound. The updated graphics tile set looks
very nice.

A warning though, the game is very old school. If you don't take
notes, you will need to refer to a guide, likely often. I mapped out
the entire game and I wrote down every single conversation, and I
still got stuck a few times.

If you like Ultima 4 then you should like Ultima 5 even more I think.

On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 13:44:10 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 10:25:51 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>>Can we both agree, though, that "Syndicate" was the better of both
>>games? ;-)

>Yes.

:-)

The gameplay of "Syndicate" was awesome, but what I really remember
about it was its intro cinematic. A full-screen animation (back when
full-screen anything was still rare), it was incredibly stylish and
hinted at depths to the world that neither the manual nor the game
itself lived up to. It could be launched with its own executable
(intro.exe) which I would run again and again, just because it was
_that_ cool. To quote an earlier poster in this thread:

"The music was great to a younger me sitting in a dark
cold bedroom staring at a 14" CRT with small speakers
blasting out, the soundtrack, happy days"

(And speaking of music and games from Bullfrog... "Lemmings", amirite?
Such catchy remixes of old classics, all 'sung' through the squeal of
a Soundblaster's OPL3 chip. I'm pretty sure that the game itself
wouldn't have reached the heights of popularity it did with a
different soundtrack.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:11:56 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 09:23:42 +0000, JAB <noway@nochance.com> wrote:
>
>>I think I well give it a go just to see why it's a game that gets
>>mentioned so often!
>
>Make sure you take Spalls advice and play the updated version with
>better graphics and midi sound. The updated graphics tile set looks
>very nice.
>
> A warning though, the game is very old school. If you don't take
>notes, you will need to refer to a guide, likely often. I mapped out
>the entire game and I wrote down every single conversation, and I
>still got stuck a few times.
>
>If you like Ultima 4 then you should like Ultima 5 even more I think.

Most of the ephemera from my old-school gaming days have long
dissapeared, but I still have my hand-written notes from playing
Ultima 5. Well, technically they are re-writes of the actual notes
since, having finished the game I cleaned them up and turned them into
a little cheat-book that I shared with my friends (and used myself in
later play-throughs).

From what I recall, it actually didn't give that much assistance in
helping you solve the game but it did have a lot of scribbled comments
about who said what, and (somewhat inaccurate) maps of the dungeons.

"Ultima IV" didn't leave that much of an impression on me; it was
'more of the same' except with a slightly different take on the
quest-structure as far as I could tell. (Not having access to an
immense video library, I had no way of knowing how ground-breaking
that quest-structure was). But "Ultima V" was jawdropping in its depth
and detail. Which, looking back at it today, seems almost comical. But
more than any other game in the genre to the time, it had the most
realistic world. It was an amazing fantasy.

"Ultima IV" will always be the 'heart' of the franchise; "Ultima VII"
will always be the height of the series, and "Ultima Underworld" the
most playable... but the game that epitomizes what made the Ultima
franchise so awesome shall forever be "Ultima V" in my eyes.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:30:16 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>The gameplay of "Syndicate" was awesome, but what I really remember
>about it was its intro cinematic. A full-screen animation (back when
>full-screen anything was still rare), it was incredibly stylish and
>hinted at depths to the world that neither the manual nor the game
>itself lived up to. It could be launched with its own executable
>(intro.exe) which I would run again and again, just because it was
>_that_ cool. To quote an earlier poster in this thread:
>
> "The music was great to a younger me sitting in a dark
> cold bedroom staring at a 14" CRT with small speakers
> blasting out, the soundtrack, happy days"

I remember the music of the Syndicate intro very well. If I heard it
now, I would recognize it immediately.

>(And speaking of music and games from Bullfrog... "Lemmings", amirite?
>Such catchy remixes of old classics, all 'sung' through the squeal of
>a Soundblaster's OPL3 chip. I'm pretty sure that the game itself
>wouldn't have reached the heights of popularity it did with a
>different soundtrack.

Lemmings had a lot catchy tunes. I have several in my soundtrack
collection. But I don't think Bullfrog had anything to do with
Lemmings. That was published by Psygnosis I think.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:39:12 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>"Ultima IV" will always be the 'heart' of the franchise; "Ultima VII"
>will always be the height of the series, and "Ultima Underworld" the
>most playable... but the game that epitomizes what made the Ultima
>franchise so awesome shall forever be "Ultima V" in my eyes.

I like how you worded this.

On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 13:42:44 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:
>On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:30:16 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>>(And speaking of music and games from Bullfrog... "Lemmings", amirite?
>>Such catchy remixes of old classics, all 'sung' through the squeal of
>>a Soundblaster's OPL3 chip. I'm pretty sure that the game itself
>>wouldn't have reached the heights of popularity it did with a
>>different soundtrack.
>
>Lemmings had a lot catchy tunes. I have several in my soundtrack
>collection. But I don't think Bullfrog had anything to do with
>Lemmings. That was published by Psygnosis I think.

D'oh. You are absolutely correct. I don't know why I thought Bullfrog.

Still had an awesome soundtrack. Every now and again, I listen to the
MIDI files just 'cause the tunes were so cool.

Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:30:16 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

> >The gameplay of "Syndicate" was awesome, but what I really remember
> >about it was its intro cinematic. A full-screen animation (back when
> >full-screen anything was still rare), it was incredibly stylish and
> >hinted at depths to the world that neither the manual nor the game
> >itself lived up to. It could be launched with its own executable
> >(intro.exe) which I would run again and again, just because it was
> >_that_ cool. To quote an earlier poster in this thread:
> >
> > "The music was great to a younger me sitting in a dark
> > cold bedroom staring at a 14" CRT with small speakers
> > blasting out, the soundtrack, happy days"

> I remember the music of the Syndicate intro very well. If I heard it
> now, I would recognize it immediately.

And the animation! I couldn't play the demo on my IBM PS/2 model 30 286
10 Mhz PC. :( My next door neighbor (I miss him) could on his custom
built 386 PC so we played there. Haha.

> >(And speaking of music and games from Bullfrog... "Lemmings", amirite?
> >Such catchy remixes of old classics, all 'sung' through the squeal of
> >a Soundblaster's OPL3 chip. I'm pretty sure that the game itself
> >wouldn't have reached the heights of popularity it did with a
> >different soundtrack.

> Lemmings had a lot catchy tunes. I have several in my soundtrack
> collection. But I don't think Bullfrog had anything to do with
> Lemmings. That was published by Psygnosis I think.

Yeah, not from Bullfrog (RIP). Lemmings was fun. I never liked the 3D
version though!
--
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Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>Personally, I preferred the older game. "Powermonger" just added on
>layers of complexity I felt were unnecessary. Although, again, that
>might be because I came across it later. Perhaps had I played
>"Powermonger" first, I would have been bitching about how stupidly
>simplified they'd made "Populous". ;-P

I was disappointed by Powermonger. It sounded like the strategy game I
had been waiting for, but it turned out to be underwelming. It's been
so long I'm not entirely sure why I thought I'd like it and why I didn't,
but I think the main problem was a lack of depth.

>Can we both agree, though, that "Syndicate" was the better of both
>games? ;-)

I might also agree, but Syndicate crashed a lot for me so I never got
far in the game.

--
l/ // Ross Ridge -- The Great HTMU
[oo][oo] rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
-()-/()/ http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca:11068/
db //

On Sat, 01 Feb 2025 01:36:25 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:30:16 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
>> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> >The gameplay of "Syndicate" was awesome, but what I really remember
>> >about it was its intro cinematic. A full-screen animation (back when
>> >full-screen anything was still rare), it was incredibly stylish and
>> >hinted at depths to the world that neither the manual nor the game
>> >itself lived up to. It could be launched with its own executable
>> >(intro.exe) which I would run again and again, just because it was
>> >_that_ cool. To quote an earlier poster in this thread:
>> >
>> > "The music was great to a younger me sitting in a dark
>> > cold bedroom staring at a 14" CRT with small speakers
>> > blasting out, the soundtrack, happy days"
>
>> I remember the music of the Syndicate intro very well. If I heard it
>> now, I would recognize it immediately.
>
>And the animation! I couldn't play the demo on my IBM PS/2 model 30 286
>10 Mhz PC. :( My next door neighbor (I miss him) could on his custom
>built 386 PC so we played there. Haha.
>

For those of you wondering, "What are all these old farts talking
about? How good could that intro really be?", let me present you with:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrR2N7C7Ddk

Although watching that cutscene again reminds me of a question I've
always wondered: is the cyborgization machine SUPPOSED to look like it
has googly-eyes?

>> >(And speaking of music and games from Bullfrog... "Lemmings", amirite?
>> >Such catchy remixes of old classics, all 'sung' through the squeal of
>> >a Soundblaster's OPL3 chip. I'm pretty sure that the game itself
>> >wouldn't have reached the heights of popularity it did with a
>> >different soundtrack.
>
>> Lemmings had a lot catchy tunes. I have several in my soundtrack
>> collection. But I don't think Bullfrog had anything to do with
>> Lemmings. That was published by Psygnosis I think.
>
>Yeah, not from Bullfrog (RIP). Lemmings was fun. I never liked the 3D
>version though!

Honestly, I never cared much for any of the sequels. This probably
won't surprise any of you who've been paying attention to my rants,
but the added complexities in the sequels (new tribes, new abilities)
had little appeal for me. It all felt more for the sake of being more.
Rather than adding more abilities to the lemmings, I'd have rather the
developers just worked on differentiating the maps with new tricks and
traps.

Lemmings was sublime. Lemmings 2 was okay. The rest (Chronicles,
Lemmings 3D, etc.) just descended into ever deepening levels of
mediocrity.

It didn't help that Bullfrog kept trying to play up the characters of
the Lemmings. The critters were cute, but they were one-note jokes,
and despite all of Bullfrog's attempts to add history and lore, just
didn't have the depth of character to support it. And the game really
didn't need it; "just keep these weird green-haired idiots from
plummeting off the edge of the map" was enough to keep up interest, I
think.

On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 15:20:28 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
(Ross Ridge) wrote:

>Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>Personally, I preferred the older game. "Powermonger" just added on
>>layers of complexity I felt were unnecessary. Although, again, that
>>might be because I came across it later. Perhaps had I played
>>"Powermonger" first, I would have been bitching about how stupidly
>>simplified they'd made "Populous". ;-P
>
>I was disappointed by Powermonger. It sounded like the strategy game I
>had been waiting for, but it turned out to be underwelming. It's been
>so long I'm not entirely sure why I thought I'd like it and why I didn't,
>but I think the main problem was a lack of depth.
>
>>Can we both agree, though, that "Syndicate" was the better of both
>>games? ;-)
>
>I might also agree, but Syndicate crashed a lot for me so I never got
>far in the game.

It also started to get very tediously repetitive as it dragged on. By
about the tenth level, you'd seen everything the game had to offer,
and the other 40 levels were variations on the theme, just with
increasingly difficult designs. Then again, when most maps could be
finished in five or ten minutes, it's hard to imagine what else
Bullfrog could have done to stretch out the game so you weren't paying
$50USD (in 1993 dollars) for a game you could otherwise finish in a
few hours.

The sequel, "Syndicate Wars" was a bit better in this regard, but the
early-3D graphics and rough controls made it hard to notice. Although
it was fun to make entire buildings explode.

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 01 Feb 2025 01:36:25 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

> >Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com> wrote:
> >> On Fri, 31 Jan 2025 10:30:16 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
> >> <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> >The gameplay of "Syndicate" was awesome, but what I really remember
> >> >about it was its intro cinematic. A full-screen animation (back when
> >> >full-screen anything was still rare), it was incredibly stylish and
> >> >hinted at depths to the world that neither the manual nor the game
> >> >itself lived up to. It could be launched with its own executable
> >> >(intro.exe) which I would run again and again, just because it was
> >> >_that_ cool. To quote an earlier poster in this thread:
> >> >
> >> > "The music was great to a younger me sitting in a dark
> >> > cold bedroom staring at a 14" CRT with small speakers
> >> > blasting out, the soundtrack, happy days"
> >
> >> I remember the music of the Syndicate intro very well. If I heard it
> >> now, I would recognize it immediately.
> >
> >And the animation! I couldn't play the demo on my IBM PS/2 model 30 286
> >10 Mhz PC. :( My next door neighbor (I miss him) could on his custom
> >built 386 PC so we played there. Haha.
> >

> For those of you wondering, "What are all these old farts talking
> about? How good could that intro really be?", let me present you with:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrR2N7C7Ddk

> Although watching that cutscene again reminds me of a question I've
> always wondered: is the cyborgization machine SUPPOSED to look like it
> has googly-eyes?

Like System Shock: https://www.ign.com/games/system-shock/ & https://www.impulsegamer.com/weep-at-its-magnificence-the-art-of-system-shock/ :P
....
--
"Dear friends, let's <3 1 another, 4 <3 comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God & knows God." --1 John 4:7. Still slammy cold (L/C)NY's wood snek days even on Fri. Will Feb. B less crazy?
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Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
....
> >>Can we both agree, though, that "Syndicate" was the better of both
> >>games? ;-)
> >
> >I might also agree, but Syndicate crashed a lot for me so I never got
> >far in the game.

> It also started to get very tediously repetitive as it dragged on. By
> about the tenth level, you'd seen everything the game had to offer,
> and the other 40 levels were variations on the theme, just with
> increasingly difficult designs. Then again, when most maps could be
> finished in five or ten minutes, it's hard to imagine what else
> Bullfrog could have done to stretch out the game so you weren't paying
> $50USD (in 1993 dollars) for a game you could otherwise finish in a
> few hours.

IIRC, there was also an official addon to add more even harder levels! I
never got far in the original game since it got hard. :(

> The sequel, "Syndicate Wars" was a bit better in this regard, but the
> early-3D graphics and rough controls made it hard to notice. Although
> it was fun to make entire buildings explode.

I played its demo on my Compaq Armada 1585DMT laptop/notebook in my
college dorm. It was OK.

Wasn't there another Syndicate clone that was good? I can't remember its
name! I never played it, but my friends told me that it was fun like the
original game.
--
"Dear friends, let's <3 1 another, 4 <3 comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God & knows God." --1 John 4:7. Still slammy cold (L/C)NY's wood snek days even on Fri. Will Feb. B less crazy?
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/ /\ /\ \ Please nuke ANT if replying by e-mail.
| |o o| |
\ _ /
( )

On 2/1/2025 11:26 AM, Ant wrote:
> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
>>>> Can we both agree, though, that "Syndicate" was the better of both
>>>> games? ;-)
>>>
>>> I might also agree, but Syndicate crashed a lot for me so I never got
>>> far in the game.
>
>> It also started to get very tediously repetitive as it dragged on. By
>> about the tenth level, you'd seen everything the game had to offer,
>> and the other 40 levels were variations on the theme, just with
>> increasingly difficult designs. Then again, when most maps could be
>> finished in five or ten minutes, it's hard to imagine what else
>> Bullfrog could have done to stretch out the game so you weren't paying
>> $50USD (in 1993 dollars) for a game you could otherwise finish in a
>> few hours.
>
> IIRC, there was also an official addon to add more even harder levels! I
> never got far in the original game since it got hard. :(
>
>
>> The sequel, "Syndicate Wars" was a bit better in this regard, but the
>> early-3D graphics and rough controls made it hard to notice. Although
>> it was fun to make entire buildings explode.
>
> I played its demo on my Compaq Armada 1585DMT laptop/notebook in my
> college dorm. It was OK.
>
> Wasn't there another Syndicate clone that was good? I can't remember its
> name! I never played it, but my friends told me that it was fun like the
> original game.

The main thing I remember from playing Syndicate was that almost every
mission reached a "stand in an intersection and kill everything in the
city" point. Which at that age it was kind of cool to watch your
operatives on continuous autofire for several minutes doing exactly that.

--
I've done good in this world. Now I'm tired and just want to be a cranky
dirty old man.

On Sat, 01 Feb 2025 19:26:46 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:
>Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>IIRC, there was also an official addon to add more even harder levels! I
>never got far in the original game since it got hard. :(
>
Yup, "American Revolt". I finished both the original game and
-eventually- the add-on. The former got extremely difficult near the
end; the latter was absolutely brutal (it's first level was as hard as
the main game's last level, and it only just got worse from there). I
enjoyed the original. I can't say the same for the expansion pack. It
was not a good game.

>Wasn't there another Syndicate clone that was good? I can't remember its
>name! I never played it, but my friends told me that it was fun like the
>original game.

There were a number of games from that era that tried to follow up on
Syndicate. The one that always springs to mind is "Gender Wars", which
was NOT a good game, but there were others. None of them were
memorable.

However, the one you are probably thinking of is "Satellite Reign",
which came out a full 22 years after the original "Syndicate" and does
its best to ape that classic. It's...okay. Like too many games, it
tried adding extra levels of compexity (hacking, traps, NPCs) to the
core idea and I think it made the whole thing top-heavy; it didn't
have the same accessibility that made the original so fun and
addictive.

On Sat, 1 Feb 2025 13:14:51 -0800, Dimensional Traveler
<dtravel@sonic.net> wrote:
>> Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>The main thing I remember from playing Syndicate was that almost every
>mission reached a "stand in an intersection and kill everything in the
>city" point. Which at that age it was kind of cool to watch your
>operatives on continuous autofire for several minutes doing exactly that.

My strategy was always just to Persuadatron (that is, use a gadget
that let you hack people's brains and control them) the populace until
I could just brainwash the enemy agents. Five civilians let you
brainwash a cop; with at least three cops in your army you could
brainwash an enemy agent. Then you'd simply hide inside a building and
when the enemies ran inside they entered your 'brainwash radius' and
immediately fell into your thrall.

Later levels worked against this strategy by
a) limiting how many civilians were available to brainwash,
b) having you get attacked IMMEDIATELY so you couldn't 'level
up' your Persuadatron so it could take over the agents,
c) made it so there were fewer buildings to hide inside, and
d) made KILLING the agents a mandatory part of completing
the level.
Once that started happening, THAT'S when you broke out the miniguns
and gyrojets.

Also fun, in a very 90s way, was setting people on fire and watching
them run around aflame, screaming. It was a level of realistic
violence that really hadn't been seen in video games up to that point,
and the sheer audacity of it made it extremely memorable. U.S. Senator
Lieberman (a very vocal activist against video game violence who
campaigned against "Mortal Kombat", "Doom" and <sigh> "Night Trap")
used that event as an example of how video games had 'gone too far'.
Although all I thought about it at the time was, "This is so cool,
"Syndicate" is being talked about in the US Congress!" ;-)

On 1/31/2025 6:05 AM, Mike S. wrote:
> On Thu, 30 Jan 2025 18:10:17 -0000 (UTC), rridge@csclub.uwaterloo.ca
> (Ross Ridge) wrote:
>
>> I'm going to be contrarian here and recommend Ultima III as the one Ultima
>> game people should play to introduce them to the series. Sure, Ultima
>> IV and V have a better story, but by modern standards the story elements
>> of the games are so thin, it's hard to see that except by comparision to
>> the earlier games. I think the third game in the series shows off the
>> the basic mechanics and style of the the first five Ultima games, what
>> actually attracted people to play these games, without the distraction of
>> a "revolutionary" story that still only makes up a tiny part of the game.
>
> I'd nominate Ultima 3 over Ultima 1. I don't disagree with anything
> you are saying here. It is just that Ultima 4's concept of following
> the virtues was so different from other RPGs of the time. It was a
> major focus of the game. You always had to think about your actions or
> you would not be able to finish the game. I never played another RPG
> quite like it. Not even other Ultimas.

I think I remember some DM using the Ultima 4 virtues thing and having
you go through a questionare or something to make your character.

I'm pretty sure I played 4 just because of that virtues mechanic, but I
don't remember anything else about it. I probably didn't complete it.

--
-Justisaur

ø-ø
(\_/)\
`-'\ `--.___,
¶¬'\( ,_.-'
\\
^'

On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 08:51:40 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I'm pretty sure I played 4 just because of that virtues mechanic, but I
>don't remember anything else about it. I probably didn't complete it.

I finished it twice. I still have my notes from the first time I
played it and the maps I made with software from the second time. I
will likely never play it again.

My next Ultima playthrough will either be Ultima 5 for the second
time as I don't remember my first playthrough very well anymore or
just move on to Ultima 6, which I have yet to play.

The problem with that plan... I have so many other games....

On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 08:51:40 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com>
wrote:

>I think I remember some DM using the Ultima 4 virtues thing and having
>you go through a questionare or something to make your character.
>
>I'm pretty sure I played 4 just because of that virtues mechanic, but I
>don't remember anything else about it. I probably didn't complete it.

The virtue mechanic appeared in multiple Ultimas (off the top of my
head, the "virtues=character generation" was used in Ultimas 4, 5 and
6 (as well as 9, but we don't talk about that one), and there was a
karma mechanic (of lessening importance to the outcome of the game
with each iteration) in 4, 5, 6 and 7. So you could have played any of
those ;-)

Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
....
> However, the one you are probably thinking of is "Satellite Reign",
> which came out a full 22 years after the original "Syndicate" and does
> its best to ape that classic. It's...okay. Like too many games, it
> tried adding extra levels of compexity (hacking, traps, NPCs) to the
> core idea and I think it made the whole thing top-heavy; it didn't
> have the same accessibility that made the original so fun and
> addictive.

Yeah, that game. Oh, it's not good? :( I don't like these complex games.
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On Sun, 02 Feb 2025 14:01:32 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>The virtue mechanic appeared in multiple Ultimas (off the top of my
>head, the "virtues=character generation" was used in Ultimas 4, 5 and
>6 (as well as 9, but we don't talk about that one), and there was a
>karma mechanic (of lessening importance to the outcome of the game
>with each iteration) in 4, 5, 6 and 7. So you could have played any of
>those ;-)

The virtue mechanic for character generation was also used in The
Elder Scrolls Arena if you wanted to use it, so if he is really
confused, it could have been that! :-P

On Mon, 03 Feb 2025 01:06:49 +0000, ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) wrote:

>Spalls Hurgenson <spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>...
>> However, the one you are probably thinking of is "Satellite Reign",
>> which came out a full 22 years after the original "Syndicate" and does
>> its best to ape that classic. It's...okay. Like too many games, it
>> tried adding extra levels of compexity (hacking, traps, NPCs) to the
>> core idea and I think it made the whole thing top-heavy; it didn't
>> have the same accessibility that made the original so fun and
>> addictive.
>
>Yeah, that game. Oh, it's not good? :( I don't like these complex games.

I wouldn't say its not good. It's just that what _I liked_ most about
the original was its accessibility. You've got four units going around
shooting bad-guys; that's pretty much it (there was a research
mini-game in the background but that was mostly just dropping money
and time into it until a new gun popped out).

"Satellite Reign" isn't a complex game either. But it adds added
complications that -I think- mar the simplicity of the original. And
since they were very purposefully aping "Syndicate", I think that was
a mistake.

As a stand-alone game, "Satellite Reign" is fine. But being familiar
with "Syndicate", and the game so wanting to be a modern incarnation
of that 1993 classic, it falls short.

On Sun, 02 Feb 2025 13:59:43 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 2 Feb 2025 08:51:40 -0800, Justisaur <justisaur@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>I'm pretty sure I played 4 just because of that virtues mechanic, but I
>>don't remember anything else about it. I probably didn't complete it.
>
>I finished it twice. I still have my notes from the first time I
>played it and the maps I made with software from the second time. I
>will likely never play it again.
>
> My next Ultima playthrough will either be Ultima 5 for the second
>time as I don't remember my first playthrough very well anymore or
>just move on to Ultima 6, which I have yet to play.

If you ever move on to "Ultima 6", I heartily recommend using the
Nuvie patch for it https://ultima6.ultimacodex.com/nuvie/ . Not only
does it give you a much wider playfield, it also improves the
drag-n-drop capabilities of the game, all of which makes it a much
more playable game than the original (you can even add full speech if
you have access to the FM Towns version of the game... but don't. It's
awful ;-)

I was going to say that "Ultima 6" was never my favorite of the
series... except that's untrue. When it came out, it absolutely blew
the earlier games out of the water with its huge, detailed world and
incredible visuals.

[Also, as I think I've related here numerous times, the
promise of "Ultima VI" was one of the primary reasons I chose
to switch to IBM/PC Compatibles rather than Amiga or Macintosh
after leaving the world of 8-bits]

It had a fairly interesting story (conceptually, at least) and a lot
of characters to interact with. My first few playthroughs

[This being the 90s, it was de rigueur to play through
all your games multiple times]
were an amazing experience, as I explored every nook and cranny of the
world, and sought out every quest and conversation. But later
playthroughs failed to recapture this magic. The quest structure of
"Ultima 6" isn't very good. The vast majority of the game is spent
looking for a pirate map that ultimately plays little real role in the
game itself. The combat isn't particularly engrossing. The dungeons
all felt flat and uninteresting. And while conversations and
characters were greatly improved over "Ultima 5", they were still
fairly flat and generic. It was a good game, especialyl for its time,
ut it no longer felt great. And after "Ultima VII" (and later
contemporaries), Ultima 6's interface felt clunky and old.

>The problem with that plan... I have so many other games....

One more come Thursday ;-)

On Mon, 03 Feb 2025 09:08:16 -0500, Mike S. <Mike_S@nowhere.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Feb 2025 14:01:32 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
><spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>The virtue mechanic appeared in multiple Ultimas (off the top of my
>>head, the "virtues=character generation" was used in Ultimas 4, 5 and
>>6 (as well as 9, but we don't talk about that one), and there was a
>>karma mechanic (of lessening importance to the outcome of the game
>>with each iteration) in 4, 5, 6 and 7. So you could have played any of
>>those ;-)
>
>The virtue mechanic for character generation was also used in The
>Elder Scrolls Arena if you wanted to use it, so if he is really
>confused, it could have been that! :-P

Well, Arena was more of a personality test that corresponded to
various attributes (e.g., sort of a 'You see a guy being bullied, what
do you do? a) Punch the bully (+STR attribute), b) trick the bully
(+INT), c) Join the bully (+CON)' thing). Which ultimately is what
Ultima did too, except there weren't any direct correlations to
virtue/value judgments about your actions in "Elder Scrolls: Arena").

There were a number of games that used that mechanic.

On Mon, 03 Feb 2025 10:38:14 -0500, Spalls Hurgenson
<spallshurgenson@gmail.com> wrote:

>If you ever move on to "Ultima 6", I heartily recommend using the
>Nuvie patch for it https://ultima6.ultimacodex.com/nuvie/ . Not only
>does it give you a much wider playfield, it also improves the
>drag-n-drop capabilities of the game, all of which makes it a much
>more playable game than the original (you can even add full speech if
>you have access to the FM Towns version of the game... but don't. It's
>awful ;-)

I plan on using the Nuvie version, I am aware of it.

I know about the FM Towns version. I think the voice 'actors' are
just Origin staff including Garriott himself.

>>The problem with that plan... I have so many other games....
>
>One more come Thursday ;-)

LOL.