On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 14/10/2024 20:48, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>>
>>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
>>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>>> destructive third world states.
>>>
>>
>> This is the truth!
>
> It is also extremely short sighted.
> And the USA is not part of Putin's Empire - yet.
> How *much* does the Orange Jesus owe Mr Vlad?
>
> More, or less, than Barack Obama?
>

Proof please. Then we talk.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 14/10/2024 20:57, D wrote:
>> They have wanted that the past 50 years, and have not achieved anything.
>> That testifies to the incompetence and weakness of the enemy, and the
>> brilliance of the US, _despite_ the democrat party.
>
> You poor sucker. You have no idea.
>

Incorrect. Actually I know this better than you.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>>>> with far less money, and way more effectively.
>>>>
>>> He almost caused Ukraine to lose by holding up the budget.
>>
>> Incorrect. They are still doing well, and it US would have backed down,
>> the EU would have ramped up.
>
> What with? It has no exonomy?
> Its just a parasitic bureaucracy.
> It does notr set Eripean natins foreign policy. It juts pretends thaqt it
> does.

The european economy is $26.64 trillion (PPP). This is proven.

>
>>
>>> What Trump  does will be as far as Europe is concerned, is to let Russia
>>> occupy Ukraine forever.
>>
>> Incorrect. Trump is pro-business, and will help EU against Russia. Don't
>> buy the democratic rhetoric. What Trump will _not_ do however, is to
>> throw billions upon billions into a black hole. That is smart, and will
>> benefit americans, and also, as I have explained, europeans, in the long
>> term.
>>
>
> *shakes head sadly*
>
> He is so business that when Putin lent him....well it was more than Hunter
> Biden anyway...

Exactly. The democrats are the true evil.

> He is so business that he wants to forgoe the opportunity to actually get
> billions in debt for defunct obsolescent hardware, he would rather write it
> off than sell it to Ukraine?
>
> Wake up! ALL of your politicians are working for someone. That's how they got
> there.

Irrelevant. We look at actions.

>>>> That will push the EU to become more militarily integrated, which will in
>>>> turn make the world safer and more stable.
>>>>
>>> The EU has no army navy or air force (thank god, as they are about as
>>> trustworthy and ambitious as Putin)
>>
>> The EU has plenty. You can add up the military capacity of each
>> individual country. This is the integration you will see if/when the US
>> ramps down.
>>
> Dont be silly. No European nation wants to put its military under EU control.
> That's why they are in NATO.

Europes countries can coordinate without the central EU, proven by joint Nato
military exercises, and joint exercises done outside of Nato, like
between sweden and finland.

You seem to know very little of europe and how europe works. Are you
based in the US?

>> The EU economy is also about 15x larger than russias, and the population
>> is about 3x. If there's a full war, Russia will lose to badly, it will
>> embarass them for generations to come.
>>
>
> The EU HAS NO ECONOMY. It is not the United states of Europe. It is nearer
> the United socialist Soviet republic of Europe. A remote entity trying to
> recreate the USSR by having a series of puppet states.

$26.64 trillion (PPP)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union .

Proven.

>
>> Putin knows that. That is why he is yelling and screaming, and doing the
>> minimum maximum he can out of fear of provoking europe to take action
>> against him.
>>
>
> Europe is a continent. It can't take action.
> The EU is a bureaucracy it has nothing to take action with

Europe has countries which can take action. I will not write every
single individual country in every single post due to your uncharitable
nit picking.

I do not think you are so stupid as to not be able to understand my
point with me having to write each country individually?

> Only the sovereign nations of Europe can take action, and they are. FAR more
> than the USA

Thank you. Proven.

> Denmark and Estonia have contributed the most. Per capita. But they are small
> countries.

See above. Europe has a common market.

> The USA ranks 17th in net contributions per citizen. A miserly contribution.
> Even Belgium has done better,
>
> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

Irrelevant.

>
>>> The nations of Europe and beyond belong to at most NATO, and Donald lied
>>> about that.
>>
>> I don't know what you are talking about. Donald did however, without
>> being president or having any official power, make the europeans step up
>> with the funding to Nato. That shows how brilliant he is, and that you
>> should look at what Trump does or achieves, _not_ what he says. His
>> words are tools to create action, they are not the purpose in and of
>> themselves.
>>
> Oh FFFS. I cant deal with another cult member tonight.
>
> Donald is not some superman. He is just another egotistical little shit with
> his eye on the main chance. In the end no better than Obama.

Do you have Trump Derangement Syndrome? I think it is stopping you from
perceiving the world correctly.

>>>
>>>
>>>> If the EU, like today, continues to suck on the US military teat, the EU
>>>> will never develop and become a liability instead of an asset.
>>>>
>>> The EU is not yet a military power.
>>
>> It is. See above.
>>
> It is not

It is. See above. Read carefully and repent.

> "The European army or EU army are terms for a hypothetical army of the
> European Union which would supersede the Common Security and Defence Policy
> and would go beyond the proposed European Defence Union. Currently, there is
> no such army, and defence is a matter for the member states. "
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army

Irrelevant.

>>>> The road forward is pretty clear and pretty easy. Russia will lose, his
>>>> oligarchs will kill him, in his place, they will select someone more
>>>> pro-west, so they can enjoy their playgrounds and yachts again, and then
>>>> we'll continue towards prospery together with a more western oriented
>>>> russia.
>>>>
>>> Well yes, but witholding military aid from Ukraine is not the way to
>>> achieve that.
>>
>> It is. Let europe and ukraine handle that.
>>
>
> Europe dioesnt exist as a country. They are already pulling way above their
> weight.

Irrelevant see above.

>>>> Another option, if they insist on the crazy path, is to defang them, and
>>>> split russia into the west, and countless little durka-durka-stans,
>>>> without weapons and resources. Those will be left to rot, and the western
>>>> half will join europe and open for business.
>>>
>>> That may well happen too, but that is not what Trump has stated he wants,
>>> nor its it what MAGA has acted to promote.
>>
>> What Trump is irrelevant, what he does is relevant.
>
> Exatcly. He nearly allowed Russia to win by stalling arms that had already
> been promised, a dirty political truck worthy of a democrat.
>
> Leaving Ukraine in the shit.

No, he is training europe to grow up and take responsibility. That is
actually brilliant.

>>
>>> The USA had a deal with Ukraine and it has a deal with NATO.
>>> If it turns it back on either or both, its status as the protector of the
>>> free world disintegrates, and  No European nation will support it when
>>> China comes knocking
>>
>> Incorrect. The US does not have any obligations to play world police.
>
> I never said that it did.
> But that is it status, deserved or not,

Nope. Trump has corrected it, and will correct even more when he wins.

>
>> Trump, playing this the way he does, will stimulate EU to grow and
>> develop into a second world police. Then there will be two, instead of
>> today, only one, which is the US. Time for EU to pay its fair share and
>> stop free riding on the US. This is only elementary logic and common
>> sense.
>
>
> Christ on a bike. The EU are the second biggest threat to world peace after
> the Russin/Ianian NORK axis.

Incorrect.

> That last thing you want is a military power run by a bunch of communist and
> ex communist apparatchiks.
>
> You are woefully ill informed.

You are ill informed and it has been proven.

On 15/10/2024 09:09, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>  I don't
>>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>>
>> Better Putin than Soros.
>>
>
> I have compared them both scientifically, and it is actualyl proven that
> Soros society would be a nicer one, than Putins. If you step away from
> the main cities in russia, the people in the country side live under
> close to medieval living conditions that would make all americans revolt.
>
> That's what you get with a kleptocracy and an authoritarian system built
> to exploit the people and enrich its leaders.

Phew. I thought for a moment I was going mad.

Exactly. I think there is a tendency - an understandable tendency, for
people living cushioned in the richest society in the world, and not
needing to be really aware in any way in their daily lives about
anything beyond its shores - to think that because they have identified
deep flaws in their own government, that some one else's would in fact
be better.

Let me tell you there is no such things as a corruption free government
anywhere in the world, and the aim of most government is to be as
corrupt and undemocratic as possible, because politicians are not
saints, and anyone who thinks they are needs urgent medical attention.

I have expressed this many times as:

"All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood."

So the Liberals pretend to be the good guys on the moral high ground, to
get the votes that enable them to satisfy the demands of the people with
deep pockets like the globalist corporates.

Whilst the Donald pretends to be the redneck dude with the
traditional values of bottom slapping and pussy grabbing individualism,
in order that *he* can get into power and get paid off by the FSB leper
funds from Moscow.

So its not he redneck shit that I object to. Far from it. Lotta redneck
in me. It's the FSB

I loathe the liberal moral snobbery and the wokery and Marxism inherent
in it, but having Putin run your country instead is not the solution.

Its not a question of getting corrupt assholes out of politics, That is
impossible. The point about a democracy is that you can get rid of a
Biden, Or Trump, Or Obama.

The point about Putin, is that he gets rid of you. Think Al Capone
heading up the white house.

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

On 15/10/2024 09:10, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 14/10/2024 20:48, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>>>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>>>
>>>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the
>>>> Ukraine or
>>>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>>>> destructive third world states.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is the truth!
>>
>> It is also extremely short sighted.
>> And the USA is not part of Putin's Empire - yet.
>> How *much* does the Orange Jesus owe Mr Vlad?
>>
>> More, or less, than Barack Obama?
>>
>
> Proof please. Then we talk.

Er. a question doesn't have a 'proof'

Why would Putin and his FSB chums *not* funnel funds/blackmail/otherwise
compromise/ to affect, support or purchase politicians in other nations
in order to shape their political processes to suit Russian needs?

The CIA does *exactly* that. I am sure MI5 does. I would be upset if
they did not.

We saw as blatant and disgraceful an attempt by the Speaker of your
House to utterly disrupt the USAs political process in favour of Russia
as we did in OUR house to favour the European Union.

Why this naive need to believe that you have finally found the One True
Incorruptible politician who is really on your side?

Bless!

We have a government website called 'they work for you'

https://www.theyworkforyou.com/

Do they work for us? Do they fuck!

In terms of what motivates a politician, the *last* people they are
working for is you.

Only very rarely does someone with some idea of what 'national interest'
*really* means turn up, and they are regarded by their fellow
politicians as extremely dangerous people.

Whatever else he may be, Trump is certainly beholden to Putin. So too
via Hunter, may have been Joe Biden.

I think I read somewhere that the *majority* of politicians in the main
German political party had all been to Russia on expense paid trips, and
no doubt entertained by athletic 'Natashas' in the absence of their
stolid German wives...

This is how the world works.

Democracy us about sacking the worst before they can do as much damage
to your country as Putin has done to Russia.

--
A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on
its shoes.

On 10/15/24 09:09, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>  I don't
>>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>>
>> Better Putin than Soros.
>>
>
> I have compared them both scientifically, and it is actualyl proven that
> Soros society would be a nicer one, than Putins. If you step away from
> the main cities in russia, the people in the country side live under
> close to medieval living conditions that would make all americans revolt.
>

That is an unfair comparison. Putin inherited a country on the brink of
collapse. He stabilised it and produced reasonable growth. Many of his
problems have been caused by external pressures, which do not exist for
the US. Not least of which is USA enforced sanctions.

Experience in Africa show us that trying to impose liberal democracy on
countries, without the social framework to handle it, can be
catastrophic. Yes, Putin is a tyrant, but I suspect, currently, Russia
needs a tyrant.

> That's what you get with a kleptocracy and an authoritarian system built
> to exploit the people and enrich its leaders.

You'll have to spell out if you are talking about the USA or Russia.
Today I was reading about Cryptocurrency billionaires trying to
manipulate the US democratic process to remove a senator seeking to
regulate them.

FWIW, I don't understand why Soros is presented as an arch villain.

On 15/10/2024 09:19, D wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>>>> with far less money, and way more effectively.
>>>>>
>>>> He almost caused Ukraine to lose by holding up the budget.
>>>
>>> Incorrect. They are still doing well, and it US would have backed down,
>>> the EU would have ramped up.
>>
>> What with? It has no exonomy?
>> Its just a parasitic bureaucracy.
>> It does notr set Eripean natins foreign policy. It juts pretends thaqt
>> it does.
>
> The european economy is $26.64 trillion (PPP). This is proven.
>

No, that is the sum of the econimies of thge natuions tha inhabit o the
continent of Europe. One of which is Russsia
It us not e economy of the EU.

> Exactly. The democrats are the true evil.

No. The true evil is greed, lust for power and fear of loss of privilege.
If you think Liberal versus Republican is evil versus good, you are
already a controlled useful idiot

All your politicians are belong to us.

>> Wake up! ALL of your politicians are working for someone. That's how
>> they got there.
>
> Irrelevant. We look at actions.

No, it is clear you do not. Even if you think you do. Mike Johnson
absolutely vilolated every norm of honorable and decent behaviors and
cost thousands of lives by the disgraceful actions he took, that Trump
supported.

>> Dont be silly. No European nation wants to put its military under EU
>> control.
>> That's why they are in NATO.
>
> Europes countries can coordinate without the central EU, proven by joint
> Nato
> military exercises, and joint exercises done outside of Nato, like
> between sweden and finland.
>
Exactly my point. EU doesnt have a military, and its members don't want
it to.
EU is compulsory, NATO is voluntary.

> You seem to know very little of europe and how europe works. Are you
> based in the US?
>

That was my question to you.

>>> The EU economy is also about 15x larger than russias, and the population
>>> is about 3x. If there's a full war, Russia will lose to badly, it will
>>> embarass them for generations to come.
>>>
>>
>> The EU HAS NO ECONOMY. It is not the United states of Europe. It is
>> nearer the United socialist Soviet republic of Europe. A remote entity
>> trying to recreate the USSR by having a series of puppet states.
>
> $26.64 trillion (PPP)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union .
>
> Proven.
>

From that refeernce The 'economy of the European Union' is the joint
economy of the member states of the European Union¨

I.e. it doesnt belong to the Union. And the Union has little effect on
how it is generated.

Youu seem to have no understanbding of European politics

>>
>>> Putin knows that. That is why he is yelling and screaming, and doing the
>>> minimum maximum he can out of fear of provoking europe to take action
>>> against him.
>>>
>>
>> Europe is a continent. It can't take action.
>> The EU is a bureaucracy it has nothing to take action with
>
> Europe has countries which can take action. I will not write every
> single individual country in every single post due to your uncharitable
> nit picking.
>
But it makes a huge difference. Fir example Hungary. Slovenia and
almost Germany have decided to limit Ukrainian support. Other counytries
who know Vlad, like Poland and Estonia, have thrown huge resources into
the pot.

The EU itself has done the square root of fuck all. A bit of
humanitarian aid.

What the EU did manage to do was co-ordinate and prepare a set of
sanctions that are slow but effective.

> I do not think you are so stupid as to not be able to understand my
> point with me having to write each country individually?
>
Because there *is* no point without mentioning each country individually.

The Czechs organised world wide black/grey market purchase of artillery
shells from unnamed sources using money donated by various other
countries, to save the day when Mike Johnson fucked Ukraine at Russias
behest by blocking the support of the whole of the USA.

Viktor Orban in Hungary has tried the same, but the EU is not the USA
(although it would love to be) it doesn't represent the people of
Europe, They have national governments. It doesn't control the defence
of Europe, Individual nations in, or out of NATO or the EU, do that
themselves . It doesn't even control the economies of Europe, although
it tries to.

It doesn't even have a single currency, though it wants to.

>> Only the sovereign nations of Europe can take action, and they are.
>> FAR more than the USA
>
> Thank you. Proven.
>
>> Denmark and Estonia have contributed the most. Per capita. But they
>> are small countries.
>
> See above. Europe has a common market.
>
>> The USA ranks 17th in net contributions per citizen. A miserly
>> contribution.
>> Even Belgium has done better,
>>
>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
>
> Irrelevant.

Nto in te slightest.

Europe is contributing far far more per person to this war than the
miserly USA is.

>> Donald is not some superman. He is just another egotistical little
>> shit with his eye on the main chance. In the end no better than Obama.
>
> Do you have Trump Derangement Syndrome? I think it is stopping you from
> perceiving the world correctly.
>

Better put yiur shades on an not stand behind him when he driops his pants

>
> It is. See above. Read carefully and repent.

All your examples show exactlyt why the EU is not a nation or a
miultray power as you seem to think it is.

>
>> "The European army or EU army are terms for a hypothetical army of the
>> European Union which would supersede the Common Security and Defence
>> Policy and would go beyond the proposed European Defence Union.
>> Currently, there is no such army, and defence is a matter for the
>> member states. "
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army
>
> Irrelevant.

Totally relevant

>> Europe dioesnt exist as a country. They are already pulling way above
>> their weight.
>
> Irrelevant see above.

Realebant

>> Leaving Ukraine in the shit.
>
> No, he is training europe to grow up and take responsibility. That is
> actually brilliant.
>

It us Europe who is taking responsibility and the Donald who is
deliberately absolving himself of it preferring to simply parraot
Russian propagandas (as you are)

>> You are woefully ill informed.
>
> You are ill informed and it has been proven.

Nope, It is clear you are either trolling, a trump supporter who has
replaced reason with religious faith, or in Putins pocket

You don't understand the politics of Russia, or of Ukraine, or of Europe
or of the EU, how any of their economies are run, how their military are
organised or who ultimately controls it.

In fact you don't even seem to understand the politics of the USA.
Except in a very childlike and unsophisticated way.

Hint. The guys in the white hats are the baddies too, sometimes.

--
Gun Control: The law that ensures that only criminals have guns.

On 15/10/2024 13:06, Pancho wrote:
> On 10/15/24 09:09, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I don't
>>>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>>>
>>> Better Putin than Soros.
>>>
>>
>> I have compared them both scientifically, and it is actualyl proven
>> that Soros society would be a nicer one, than Putins. If you step away
>> from the main cities in russia, the people in the country side live
>> under close to medieval living conditions that would make all
>> americans revolt.
>>
>
> That is an unfair comparison. Putin inherited a country on the brink of
> collapse. He stabilised it and produced reasonable growth. Many of his
> problems have been caused by external pressures, which do not exist for
> the US. Not least of which is USA enforced sanctions.
>
> Experience in Africa show us that trying to impose liberal democracy on
> countries, without the social framework to handle it, can be
> catastrophic. Yes, Putin is a tyrant, but I suspect, currently, Russia
> needs a tyrant.
>
>> That's what you get with a kleptocracy and an authoritarian system
>> built to exploit the people and enrich its leaders.
>
> You'll have to spell out if you are talking about the USA or Russia.

Russia.
The USA is more an oligarchy.

The sad thing about Russia is that its never been anything else, and its
people would not know what to do if it wasnt.
It has always been a collection of utterly poor serfs, a few
intellectual and affluent middle class and an oppressive centralised
power structure on top.

At the breakdown of communism, party Apparatchiks realised that if they
could grab control of the greatest source of income - oil and gas - they
would be sitting on an income stream large enough to pay for the FSB to
stop anyone stopping them. They didnt need an educated middle class to
do this beyond a bit of service to the kleptocracy and keeping the oil
and gash gushing, and the absolutely didn't need the peasants.
And they didn't need to pay much attention to manufacturing when they
could afford to import everything.

And so that being what was possible, that was what they did Russia is a
typical third world oil country, with all the power and money in very
few hands and the population oppressed in classical Marxist terms by
capitalists. Except they never put any capital up. They stole it.

That's what we call them a kleptocracy, The Russian state is comprised
of thieves, and its run as a Mafia.

> Today I was reading about Cryptocurrency billionaires trying to
> manipulate the US democratic process to remove a senator seeking to
> regulate them.
>
> FWIW, I don't understand why Soros is presented as an arch villain.
>
Well really because he uses his power to do what's good for Soros, and
in the process has done damage elsewhere.

I don't like that, but I like Putin a whole lot less. The USA hasn't
ever really been run by true dictators and fascists so you don't have
the direct experience of them. South America has of course a long
tradition of such. Cf Venezuela and Chavez.

Here in Europe we have always had them and the democracy we gifted you
was our ultimate prophylactic against them. In the beginning they were
Feudal overlords, then they were arrogant kings, then they became power
mad dictators like
Napoleon...Franco...Mussolini...Hitler...Stalin...Ceaușescu...and today
they are the bureaucrats of the FSB in Russia and the EU in Western
Europe, except that Western Europe has vestiges of democracy left.

Rich and powerful men are rich and powerful because it is important to
them and thats why they get to be rich and powerful, and then they get
worried someone will steal it and the next thing is they are playing
with politics. And using a bit of the riches to but all the
politicians, They don't care which party wins as long as enough of its
top puppets are their puppets in their pockets.

In the case of Russia your summary of and comparison with African
nations is indeed cogent. There is no point in trying to 'regime change'
Russia because the next regime will be the same as this one.

What is pragmatic is to destroy them militarily and as a world power,
and let the Russians themselves decide what to do next.

As we have done with North Korea. Its a pimple we need not burst,
because ultimately its an entirely self contained shithole that doesn't
impact anywhere else and it serves as an example of what happens when
you let leaders become divine beings and give them godlike powers.

Where you make a mistake is to buy into the crap about any of Russia
problems being the USAs fault, except that in 1944 you should have
listened to Churchill and let the Russians get slaughtered by Germany
before defeating Germany.

No Eastern Bloc. No Cold War.

No one has exerted any pressure on Russia whatsoever. No one wants
Russia, only its oil and gas. And the deal was that Russia got paid
handsomely for those with the West turning a blind eye as to how the
kleptocrats murdered their own citizens.

But Russia has always interfered in the West. And pushed the limits. And
never played nice. And Putin invaded Ukraine on a pretext.

He crossed the red line. And unlike his red line, ours are a bit more
actively enforced.

--
“People believe certain stories because everyone important tells them,
and people tell those stories because everyone important believes them.
Indeed, when a conventional wisdom is at its fullest strength, one’s
agreement with that conventional wisdom becomes almost a litmus test of
one’s suitability to be taken seriously.”

Paul Krugman

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> As we have done with North Korea. Its a pimple we need not burst,
> because ultimately its an entirely self contained shithole that
> doesn't impact anywhere else and it serves as an example of what
> happens when you let leaders become divine beings and give them
> godlike powers.

North Korea does impact the rest of the world - it’s behind a lot of
hacking campaigns, which we pay for in various ways (ransoms, theft,
post-attack cleanup, etc). It’s how they stay afloat. However, as you
say, letting that continue is much cheaper than military intervention.

In contrast sending old NATO kit to Ukraine is practically free l-)

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

On 15/10/2024 18:17, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> As we have done with North Korea. Its a pimple we need not burst,
>> because ultimately its an entirely self contained shithole that
>> doesn't impact anywhere else and it serves as an example of what
>> happens when you let leaders become divine beings and give them
>> godlike powers.
>
> North Korea does impact the rest of the world - it’s behind a lot of
> hacking campaigns, which we pay for in various ways (ransoms, theft,
> post-attack cleanup, etc).

Indeed. Id forgotten that. I get more issues from China, India and Russia...

It’s how they stay afloat. However, as you
> say, letting that continue is much cheaper than military intervention.
>
> In contrast sending old NATO kit to Ukraine is practically free l-)
>

It is, but the aim of the pro Russian trolls is to generate emotion, not
reason.

--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 13:06:48 +0100, Pancho wrote:

> FWIW, I don't understand why Soros is presented as an arch villain.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Wednesday

Yes, I realize Soros did nothing illegal and it was only a smart business
move. However that doesn't change my opinion of curerncy traders being
lower than pond scum. Soros went on to finance NGOs and PAC that support
positions that I do not agree with. Again, opinions are like assholes but
my opinion of Soros is rather low.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 15/10/2024 09:19, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>>>>> with far less money, and way more effectively.
>>>>>>
>>>>> He almost caused Ukraine to lose by holding up the budget.
>>>>
>>>> Incorrect. They are still doing well, and it US would have backed down,
>>>> the EU would have ramped up.
>>>
>>> What with? It has no exonomy?
>>> Its just a parasitic bureaucracy.
>>> It does notr set Eripean natins foreign policy. It juts pretends thaqt it
>>> does.
>>
>> The european economy is $26.64 trillion (PPP). This is proven.
>>
>
> No, that is the sum of the econimies of thge natuions tha inhabit o the
> continent of Europe. One of which is Russsia
> It us not e economy of the EU.

Read _carefully_, for your benefit I said _european_ not the EU. So your
argument is irrelevant.

>> Exactly. The democrats are the true evil.
>
> No. The true evil is greed, lust for power and fear of loss of privilege.
> If you think Liberal versus Republican is evil versus good, you are already a
> controlled useful idiot
>
> All your politicians are belong to us.

Incorrect. In the US, in this election, democrat = bad, republican = good.
This is scientifically proven.

>
>
>>> Wake up! ALL of your politicians are working for someone. That's how they
>>> got there.
>>
>> Irrelevant. We look at actions.
>
> No, it is clear you do not. Even if you think you do. Mike Johnson
> absolutely vilolated every norm of honorable and decent behaviors and cost
> thousands of lives by the disgraceful actions he took, that Trump supported.

I'm talking about Trump, not Mike Johnson, irrelevant.

>
>>> Dont be silly. No European nation wants to put its military under EU
>>> control.
>>> That's why they are in NATO.
>>
>> Europes countries can coordinate without the central EU, proven by joint
>> Nato
>> military exercises, and joint exercises done outside of Nato, like
>> between sweden and finland.
>>
> Exactly my point. EU doesnt have a military, and its members don't want it
> to.
> EU is compulsory, NATO is voluntary.

Europes countries can coordinate without the central EU, proven by
joint Nato
military exercises, and joint exercises done outside of Nato, like
between sweden and finland.

>
>> You seem to know very little of europe and how europe works. Are you
>> based in the US?
>>
>
> That was my question to you.

Exactly.

>>>> The EU economy is also about 15x larger than russias, and the population
>>>> is about 3x. If there's a full war, Russia will lose to badly, it will
>>>> embarass them for generations to come.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The EU HAS NO ECONOMY. It is not the United states of Europe. It is nearer
>>> the United socialist Soviet republic of Europe. A remote entity trying to
>>> recreate the USSR by having a series of puppet states.
>>
>> $26.64 trillion (PPP)
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union .
>>
>> Proven.
>>
>
> From that refeernce The 'economy of the European Union' is the joint economy
> of the member states of the European Union¨
>
> I.e. it doesnt belong to the Union. And the Union has little effect on how
> it is generated.
>
> Youu seem to have no understanbding of European politics

European, read above. Point proven and won.

>>>
>>>> Putin knows that. That is why he is yelling and screaming, and doing the
>>>> minimum maximum he can out of fear of provoking europe to take action
>>>> against him.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Europe is a continent. It can't take action.
>>> The EU is a bureaucracy it has nothing to take action with
>>
>> Europe has countries which can take action. I will not write every
>> single individual country in every single post due to your uncharitable
>> nit picking.
>>
> But it makes a huge difference. Fir example Hungary. Slovenia and almost
> Germany have decided to limit Ukrainian support. Other counytries who know
> Vlad, like Poland and Estonia, have thrown huge resources into the pot.

My point still stands. You're refuted.

> The EU itself has done the square root of fuck all. A bit of humanitarian
> aid.

We moved on. Leave it.

> What the EU did manage to do was co-ordinate and prepare a set of sanctions
> that are slow but effective.

One step, and also, they are slow due to the US. If US stops, EU ramps up.

>
>> I do not think you are so stupid as to not be able to understand my
>> point with me having to write each country individually?
>>
> Because there *is* no point without mentioning each country individually.

Of course there is. Learn reading, then we discuss.

> The Czechs organised world wide black/grey market purchase of artillery
> shells from unnamed sources using money donated by various other countries,
> to save the day when Mike Johnson fucked Ukraine at Russias behest by
> blocking the support of the whole of the USA.

Irrelevant to discussion.

> Viktor Orban in Hungary has tried the same, but the EU is not the USA
> (although it would love to be) it doesn't represent the people of Europe,
> They have national governments. It doesn't control the defence of Europe,
> Individual nations in, or out of NATO or the EU, do that themselves . It
> doesn't even control the economies of Europe, although it tries to.
>
> It doesn't even have a single currency, though it wants to.

See original point. Europe is already cooperating and coordinating
militaryly. Within and outside Nato.

>
>
>>> Only the sovereign nations of Europe can take action, and they are. FAR
>>> more than the USA
>>
>> Thank you. Proven.
>>
>>> Denmark and Estonia have contributed the most. Per capita. But they are
>>> small countries.
>>
>> See above. Europe has a common market.
>>
>>> The USA ranks 17th in net contributions per citizen. A miserly
>>> contribution.
>>> Even Belgium has done better,
>>>
>>> https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>
> Nto in te slightest.
>
> Europe is contributing far far more per person to this war than the miserly
> USA is.

Irrelevant. It's europes problem, not USA.

>
>>> Donald is not some superman. He is just another egotistical little shit
>>> with his eye on the main chance. In the end no better than Obama.
>>
>> Do you have Trump Derangement Syndrome? I think it is stopping you from
>> perceiving the world correctly.
>>
>
> Better put yiur shades on an not stand behind him when he driops his pants

Irrelevant.

>
>>
>> It is. See above. Read carefully and repent.
>
> All your examples show exactlyt why the EU is not a nation or a miultray
> power as you seem to think it is.

Read above. Learn to read.

>
>>
>>> "The European army or EU army are terms for a hypothetical army of the
>>> European Union which would supersede the Common Security and Defence
>>> Policy and would go beyond the proposed European Defence Union. Currently,
>>> there is no such army, and defence is a matter for the member states. "
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army
>>
>> Irrelevant.
>
> Totally relevant
Irrelevant.

>
>>> Europe dioesnt exist as a country. They are already pulling way above
>>> their weight.
>>
>> Irrelevant see above.
>
> Realebant
Irrelevant.
>
>
>>> Leaving Ukraine in the shit.
>>
>> No, he is training europe to grow up and take responsibility. That is
>> actually brilliant.
>>
>
> It us Europe who is taking responsibility and the Donald who is deliberately
> absolving himself of it preferring to simply parraot Russian propagandas (as
> you are)

Nope, US has no obligation, so no absolving necessary. Your logic is
flawed.

>
>
>>> You are woefully ill informed.
>>
>> You are ill informed and it has been proven.
>
>
> Nope, It is clear you are either trolling, a trump supporter who has replaced
> reason with religious faith, or in Putins pocket

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 15/10/2024 09:09, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>>  I don't
>>>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>>>
>>> Better Putin than Soros.
>>>
>>
>> I have compared them both scientifically, and it is actualyl proven that
>> Soros society would be a nicer one, than Putins. If you step away from the
>> main cities in russia, the people in the country side live under close to
>> medieval living conditions that would make all americans revolt.
>>
>> That's what you get with a kleptocracy and an authoritarian system built to
>> exploit the people and enrich its leaders.
>
> Phew. I thought for a moment I was going mad.
>
> Exactly. I think there is a tendency - an understandable tendency, for people
> living cushioned in the richest society in the world, and not needing to be
> really aware in any way in their daily lives about anything beyond its shores
> - to think that because they have identified deep flaws in their own
> government, that some one else's would in fact be better.
>
> Let me tell you there is no such things as a corruption free government
> anywhere in the world, and the aim of most government is to be as corrupt and
> undemocratic as possible, because politicians are not saints, and anyone who
> thinks they are needs urgent medical attention.
>
> I have expressed this many times as:
>
> "All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that all
> government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is fully
> understood."
>
> So the Liberals pretend to be the good guys on the moral high ground, to get
> the votes that enable them to satisfy the demands of the people with deep
> pockets like the globalist corporates.
>
> Whilst the Donald pretends to be the redneck dude with the traditional
> values of bottom slapping and pussy grabbing individualism, in order that
> *he* can get into power and get paid off by the FSB leper funds from
> Moscow.
>
> So its not he redneck shit that I object to. Far from it. Lotta redneck in
> me. It's the FSB
>
> I loathe the liberal moral snobbery and the wokery and Marxism inherent in
> it, but having Putin run your country instead is not the solution.
>
> Its not a question of getting corrupt assholes out of politics, That is
> impossible. The point about a democracy is that you can get rid of a Biden,
> Or Trump, Or Obama.
>
> The point about Putin, is that he gets rid of you. Think Al Capone heading up
> the white house.
>

This is the truth. Soros is preferable to Putin. With Putin, society is
reduced to a medieval fiefdom with serfs, nobility and Tsar. Serfs will be
trampled upon and killed when expedient.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 15/10/2024 09:10, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/10/2024 20:48, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>>>>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>>>>
>>>>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
>>>>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>>>>> destructive third world states.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the truth!
>>>
>>> It is also extremely short sighted.
>>> And the USA is not part of Putin's Empire - yet.
>>> How *much* does the Orange Jesus owe Mr Vlad?
>>>
>>> More, or less, than Barack Obama?
>>>
>>
>> Proof please. Then we talk.
>
> Er. a question doesn't have a 'proof'
>
> Why would Putin and his FSB chums *not* funnel funds/blackmail/otherwise
> compromise/ to affect, support or purchase politicians in other nations in
> order to shape their political processes to suit Russian needs?
>
> The CIA does *exactly* that. I am sure MI5 does. I would be upset if they did
> not.
>
> We saw as blatant and disgraceful an attempt by the Speaker of your House to
> utterly disrupt the USAs political process in favour of Russia as we did in
> OUR house to favour the European Union.
>
> Why this naive need to believe that you have finally found the One True
> Incorruptible politician who is really on your side?
>
> Bless!
>
> We have a government website called 'they work for you'
>
> https://www.theyworkforyou.com/
>
> Do they work for us? Do they fuck!
>
> In terms of what motivates a politician, the *last* people they are working
> for is you.
>
> Only very rarely does someone with some idea of what 'national interest'
> *really* means turn up, and they are regarded by their fellow politicians as
> extremely dangerous people.
>
> Whatever else he may be, Trump is certainly beholden to Putin. So too via
> Hunter, may have been Joe Biden.
>
> I think I read somewhere that the *majority* of politicians in the main
> German political party had all been to Russia on expense paid trips, and no
> doubt entertained by athletic 'Natashas' in the absence of their stolid
> German wives...
>
> This is how the world works.
>
> Democracy us about sacking the worst before they can do as much damage to
> your country as Putin has done to Russia.
>

No proof, no talk.

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 22:24:22 +0200, D wrote:

> This is the truth. Soros is preferable to Putin. With Putin, society is
> reduced to a medieval fiefdom with serfs, nobility and Tsar. Serfs will
> be trampled upon and killed when expedient.

And what will a Soros backed society be? Thralls will be thralls. In
modern society they aren't owned. It was recognized it is more economic to
let the thralls provide their own sustenance rather than having to provide
for them., You left out the karls, or freemen, They were the craftsmen,
merchants, and other necessary functionaries. Then there were the jarls
and the king.

That echoes the Laws of Manu that help Indian society together for
centuries. They did have a finer distinction between the brahmins and the
kshatriya, warriors and administrators.

That's the reality, dress it up with 'equality' and other phantoms as you
will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D77dbv-xNfE

"And you think you're so clever, classless, and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see"

John Lennon

On 10/15/24 7:46 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 15/10/2024 09:10, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 14/10/2024 20:48, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the
>>>>>> USA
>>>>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>>>>
>>>>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the
>>>>> Ukraine or
>>>>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>>>>> destructive third world states.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is the truth!
>>>
>>> It is also extremely short sighted.
>>> And the USA is not part of Putin's Empire - yet.
>>> How *much* does the Orange Jesus owe Mr Vlad?
>>>
>>> More, or less, than Barack Obama?
>>>
>>
>> Proof please. Then we talk.
>
> Er. a question doesn't have a 'proof'
>
> Why would Putin and his FSB chums *not* funnel funds/blackmail/otherwise
> compromise/  to affect, support or purchase politicians in other nations
> in order to shape their political processes to suit Russian needs?
>
> The CIA does *exactly* that. I am sure MI5 does. I would be upset if
> they did not.
>
> We saw as blatant and disgraceful an attempt by the Speaker of your
> House to utterly disrupt the USAs political process in favour of Russia
> as we did in OUR house to favour the European Union.
>
> Why this naive need to believe that you have finally found the One True
> Incorruptible politician who is really on your side?
>
> Bless!
>
> We have a government website called 'they work for you'
>
> https://www.theyworkforyou.com/
>
> Do they work for us? Do they fuck!
>
> In terms of what motivates a politician, the *last* people they are
> working for is you.
>
> Only very rarely does someone with some idea of what 'national interest'
> *really* means turn up, and they are regarded by their fellow
> politicians as extremely dangerous people.
>
> Whatever else he may be, Trump is certainly beholden to Putin. So too
> via Hunter, may have been Joe Biden.
>
> I think I read somewhere that the *majority* of politicians in the main
> German political party had all been to Russia on expense paid trips, and
> no doubt entertained by athletic 'Natashas' in the absence of their
> stolid German wives...
>
> This is how the world works.
>
> Democracy us about sacking the worst before they can do as much damage
> to your country as Putin has done to Russia.

"Democracy" is about "suspension of belief" ... you
PRETEND your 'leaders' are great because you had a
largely-pretend role in selecting them. :-)

Machiavelli still scores 100% ...

On Wed, 16 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 22:24:22 +0200, D wrote:
>
>
>> This is the truth. Soros is preferable to Putin. With Putin, society is
>> reduced to a medieval fiefdom with serfs, nobility and Tsar. Serfs will
>> be trampled upon and killed when expedient.
>
> And what will a Soros backed society be? Thralls will be thralls. In
> modern society they aren't owned. It was recognized it is more economic to
> let the thralls provide their own sustenance rather than having to provide
> for them., You left out the karls, or freemen, They were the craftsmen,
> merchants, and other necessary functionaries. Then there were the jarls
> and the king.
>
> That echoes the Laws of Manu that help Indian society together for
> centuries. They did have a finer distinction between the brahmins and the
> kshatriya, warriors and administrators.
>
> That's the reality, dress it up with 'equality' and other phantoms as you
> will.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D77dbv-xNfE
>
> "And you think you're so clever, classless, and free
> But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see"
>
> John Lennon
>
>

Well, in all fairness, I said better with Soros than Putin, but I agree
that it won't be a utopia. ;)

D wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> <snip>
>
> Well, in all fairness, I said better with Soros than Putin, but I agree
> that it won't be a utopia. ;)

The only Utopia is sitting in front of a Linux box writing code. :-)

My mother was always telling me this:

--
Wake up and smell the coffee.
-- Ann Landers

On 16/10/2024 12:34, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
> D wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>
>> <snip>
>>
>> Well, in all fairness, I said better with Soros than Putin, but I agree
>> that it won't be a utopia. ;)
>
> The only Utopia is sitting in front of a Linux box writing code. :-)
>
> My mother was always telling me this:
>
All rhetoric and ideology aside. the question is 'which one needs you more'

It is clear that Putin likes money and power and hates people .
Soros? I dunno. I dont think he actively hates people. He just doesnt
care very much.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 2024-10-12, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
> Fortunately at least this practice is illegal in the EU, so there they
> cannot do this.

That practice may be illegal in the EU, but that only means there they
cannot say that they are doing this.