On 10/13/2024 19:47, Lars Poulsen wrote:

> The fact is that for decades, the Republican administrations have run up
> the deficits, while Democrats have reduced them.
>

https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/#us-deficit-by-year

^^ I would like to point out, .GOV. It's an official government web site.

Debt totals

$1.99T - W Bush 8 years (2001-2008)
$7.29T - Obama 8 years (2009-2016)
$5.56T - Trump 4 years (2017-2020)
$5.85T - Biden 3 Years (2021-2023) [Does not include 2024 spending]

Party Debt from 2001-2023

$7.55T - Republican Presidents
$13.15T - Democrat Presidents

BTW, it saddens me that you can't find this information on your own.

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

>> france it is illegal for them to give away their software since it risks
>> outcompeting the local competition. But I have not checked this, so
>> caveat emptor.
>>
>
> I haven't done a lot of looking into this, but I have heard the same. I
> seriously doubt Microsoft will actually comply with this though. Teams and
> Office are their bread and butter and if they were to do it, it would be at a
> higher price tag more likely. Either Microsoft will pay France off at some
> point or they will threaten to pull out of France. If France uses Office and
> Teams in important sectors they will likely cave. It'll be interesting to
> look into this over the next 6 months and see what happens.

I think this has existed for quite a while, and nothing has happened, so
I think that probably you are right here. The law exists, ready to be
used, but they realize they cannot push too hard.

>>>> There is of course a down side to all of this, and that is that the EU is
>>>> regulating it's tech sector out of existence, so all skilled
>>>> technologists, in time, will become employed by non-EU companies, since
>>>> there will be no point in starting a tech company in europe, only to be
>>>> at risk of high fines for the slightest mistake.
>>>>
>>>
>>> In my opinion we are starting to see that transition here in the US as
>>> well. They are starting with the large corporations (which I think they
>>> already have taken over) but will eventually move to the medium/ small
>>> businesses over time. I hope it doesn't happen because then it's just evil
>>> running all of us. But we'll have to see over then next couple elections
>>> what happens.
>>
>> Really?! This was news to me. Usually I read in european pro-business
>> papers, that in the US all is well, and the EU is flushed down the
>> drain, so it was very interesting to hear. On the other hand, lawfare
>> and regulatory capture is a US national sport, so perhaps the driving
>> force behind that are the big corporations in order to stop any
>> competition from developing.
>>
>
> Heh, The government controls the news and most of the media here.
> (specifically the democratic party). Facebook, Google, and Microsoft all do
> the Government's bidding and the only reason why Twitter stopped being a
> Government puppet is because Elon purchased it and kicked the Government out
> (government has been going after Elon ever since). I should note that our
> Government power is in Democrat hands right now. Democrats will deny this is
> happening but you can do the research and look into things beyond the surface
> and you can find the truth of it. This election between Kamala and Trump will
> decide the fate of the US. If Kamala wins the Government will shift to either
> a Nationalist Socialist country or a Communist Socialist country depending on
> certain other factors. If Trump wins we will remain a Republic Capitalist
> country. Despite what the media says, word on the ground is Trump is winning
> hearts and minds and personally I think that's good for our country. We'll
> see what happens in the next few weeks. (Our elections are Nov 5th)

I agree with you analysis. Also note that Trump winning will be the
absoultely best outcome for europe in the long term. If the (social)
democrats win, they will continue to pay for europes security problems
and wars, so europe will never learn to take responsibility for its own
security and neighboring crazy countries. If Trump wins, a clear message
will be sent that its time for europe to shape up, since the US will no
longer pay for everything.

Contrary to popular belief, that will actually create a safer and more
stable world, than the EU constantly leaning on the US.

>> I wonder where the next wave of tech startups will come from? Perhaps
>> Milei will manage to drain the swamp in Argentina, and Argentina will
>> become the innovation power house of the planet? Talk about something
>> unexpected, if that were to happen!
>>
>>>> In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from the
>>>> rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There will of
>>>> course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all innovation will
>>>> leave the EU if its current socialist and pro- regulation agenda
>>>> continues for long.
>>>
>>> I fear this is coming to the US as well. "We the people" need to vote out
>>> the politicians that are supporting this cause. But the issue is the
>>> younger generations seem to want this to happen. Sadly I don't think they
>>> realize how bad this is going to be for us over here but they won't
>>> realize it until it's too late I'm afraid.
>>
>> Sad to hear it. And is it still the case that neither US party has any
>> intention of actually lowering the debt of the country? If not, I would
>> imagine that it eventually will reach a level at which the credit rating
>> agencies cannot ignore it any longer, and that day will certainly send
>> shock waves throughout the global economy! =/
>
> Despite what the media says Trump is our better bet in this regard. The issue
> is, because of democrat spending over the last 2 decades (they have held
> office 12 out of the 20 years) it would take at least 2-3 republican
> presidential terms to stop the bleed and break even. probably another 2 terms
> to start lowering the debt. There is just so much waste happening that the
> best Trump can do in 4 years (assuming he gets into the office again, fingers
> crossed) is slow down the spending. It will take another republican president
> 2 more terms (8 years) to get all the rest of the waste out of our government
> budget to get to 0/0 each year. It would also cost us a lot of social
> services that go to people who really don't need them. Don't get my wrong,
> there are legitimate cases and I believe we should take care of our people
> but in my opinion, we spend 30% of those services on people who actually need
> it and 70% on people who don't. I mean, I could get on social services right
> now if I wanted to and get $660 a month for free and continue working my job.
> And there is absolutely nothing wrong with me (and I do very well for myself
> financially so if someone like me can get $660 a month you know money is
> being wasted). If we get rid of that 70% junk spending then we'd probably cut
> a large portion of our spending down.
>
> Sorry, got off topic there..

Very interesting! Usually you read in europe that all is doom and gloom
and that the US will collapse. I'm happy to hear that there is light in
the tunnel as long as the republicans win.

As for democrats winning, I really do fear for the future of the US. It
seems like they will completely obliterate the working classes and
consolidate wealth in the political class and their sycophants.

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-13, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>
>>>> In terms of how much MS there is in the infra, you are 100% right. There
>>>> are small initiatives here and there, for instance, München switched to
>>>> libreoffice, but usually what happens, is that Microsoft bribes the
>>>> politicians with promises of an R&D center employing X 100 or 1000 people
>>>> if they change back, and of course they do, since they are politicians and
>>>> not open source enthusiasts.
>
> Except, perhaps, for Venezuela. I haven't heard much news lately about
> how their open-source mandate was going - is it still in effect?

Venezuela is by now a failed state run by criminals, so I think they
probably don't even follow their own rules.

>>> Yeah I mean, MS would never "allow" it to happen. Until politicians are
>>> willing to lose money, MS will continue to feed governments money to keep
>>> them solidly on MS products. Which again, is where I can say that any
>>> 'speeding ticket' case that would be against MS will be quickly dismissed.
>>
>> I think france judged that MS has to unbundle teams from Office, and in
>> france it is illegal for them to give away their software since it risks
>> outcompeting the local competition. But I have not checked this, so
>> caveat emptor.
>
> I once got my hands on a copy of Window XP N - the N stands for "No
> Internet Explorer", which was a European mandate.
>
> <snip>

Fascinating! Never seen such a thing in europe. On the other hand, I've
run linux 100% the past 2 decades and I only work with linux and the
associated eco-system so fortunately I do not get exposed to windows that
often.

My main source of filth is teams and chrome.

>>>> In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from the
>>>> rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There will of
>>>> course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all innovation will
>>>> leave the EU if its current socialist and pro-regulation agenda continues
>>>> for long.
>>>
>>> I fear this is coming to the US as well. "We the people" need to vote out
>>> the politicians that are supporting this cause.
>
> Who will they vote in? These days voting is like trying to decide
> whether you want to be shot or stabbed.
>
> Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
> -- The Who
>
>>> But the issue is the younger
>>> generations seem to want this to happen. Sadly I don't think they realize
>>> how bad this is going to be for us over here but they won't realize it
>>> until it's too late I'm afraid.
>
> It is sad - it's like watching drug addicts slip away.
>
>> Sad to hear it. And is it still the case that neither US party has any
>> intention of actually lowering the debt of the country? If not, I would
>> imagine that it eventually will reach a level at which the credit rating
>> agencies cannot ignore it any longer, and that day will certainly send
>> shock waves throughout the global economy! =/
>
> I wonder whether national debt is even seen the same way as personal
> debt. It certainly doesn't seem that way. If we as individuals ran
> our finances the way governments run theirs, we'd be thrown in jail.

This is the biggest mistake in monetary policy in our times. The economy
of the state should be run _exactly_ as the individual economy. If that
was the case, we'd have much more stable markets, and happier long term
prospects.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

> On 10/13/2024 19:47, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>> The fact is that for decades, the Republican administrations have run up
>> the deficits, while Democrats have reduced them.
>>
>
> https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/#us-deficit-by-year
>
> ^^ I would like to point out, .GOV. It's an official government web site.
>
> Debt totals
>
> $1.99T - W Bush 8 years (2001-2008)
> $7.29T - Obama 8 years (2009-2016)
> $5.56T - Trump 4 years (2017-2020)
> $5.85T - Biden 3 Years (2021-2023) [Does not include 2024 spending]
>
> Party Debt from 2001-2023
>
> $7.55T - Republican Presidents
> $13.15T - Democrat Presidents
>
> BTW, it saddens me that you can't find this information on your own.
>
>

Yep, looks like Lars was actually the one with the wrong facts. On the
other hand, I suspect some danish influence, and given that, a leaning
towards the (socialist) democrats is only natural.

I think the party that has elevated lawfare to new heights is in fact the
Democrats, so if I could vote, it would be Trump all the way.

The democrats are insane.

On 13/10/2024 19:27, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-10-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Smart tech with explosives strapped to its back is everyone's favourite
>> suicide bomber if your population is not oversupplied with gullible idiots.
>
> I don't see that supply running out anytime soon, on either side
> of the fence. And politicians of all stripes are doing their best
> to preserve that supply.
>
> Still, your tech fantasies are rather interesting. I had a somewhat
> more modest version of a cockroach-sized device that creeps into
> meeting rooms, records incriminating evidence, and broadcasts it.
>

I don't know whether you keep up with that the Ukrainians are
*allegedly* developing, but its bleeding edge stuff built out of cheap
chips and smart code.

When the war is over they will have some companies and technologies
worth billions

I means not hand wavey vaporware, but stuff that actually works. ...

--
"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
forgotten your aim."

George Santayana

On 14/10/2024 00:47, Lars Poulsen wrote:
> The only borderline Nazi team in this election is the Trumpist party,
> which has all but promised that if they win, they are going to prosecuter
> their opponents, and "if you elect me, you will never have to vote
> again", where as Kamala Harris a[ppears to be a typical center-right
> Democrat.

Sadly, I fear that what is happening everywhere in the West has happened
in the USA.
The two 'parties' are to use Galloway's inimitable analogy 'two cheeks
of the same arse'

The issues, the agendas, are all predecided. And sadly the agendas are
all Left wing woke moralistic issues.

Full of oughts and shoulds (or should nots) , Not a single cost benefit
calculation in any of them.

Policies based on flimsy ideologies rammed home with wall to wall
propaganda.

Trump is just a fast tracked totalitarian kleptocrat, whereas the
democrats are cooking democracy more slowly. Building their nice little
cosy oligarchy of rich men and rich corporate slave owners,

None of them give a tuppeny fuck for the ordinary joe. Mechanisation
means you don't need him any more.

I hope trump loses because he will gift Ukraine to Putin if he does not,
and Putin will spend the next 5 years working out how to get back the
Baltic countries, and they don't deserve that.

We are actually in the middle of a global struggle for dominance of
world orders.

Basically which bunch of cunts are going to ensalve us, bleed us dry and
tell us what to think .

None of them are to be trusted. They are in collusion anyway.

--
He who follows the herd will only see assholes

On 14/10/2024 10:45, D wrote:
> Yep, looks like Lars was actually the one with the wrong facts. On the
> other hand, I suspect some danish influence, and given that, a leaning
> towards the (socialist) democrats is only natural.
>
> I think the party that has elevated lawfare to new heights is in fact
> the Democrats, so if I could vote, it would be Trump all the way.
>
> The democrats are insane.

The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
globally by becoming isolationist.

I am a natural centre right person. But the Donald has gone too far and
cost thousands of Ukrainian lives already by reneging on the terms of
the USAs relationship with Ukraine.

Ukraine is not 'Europe's problem'

Russia is a global problem alonng with Iran, North Korea China and all
the other totalitarian post communist or islamfascist states.

Making Russia great again is Putins dream, but if he destroys teh USAs
export marlet, its the USAs problem.

Right now its the Ukraine and the Israelis at the thin end of the wedge,
but it will in the end be ordinary americans, and the longer you let
these dictators get away with it the harder they become to stop.

First they came for the Ukrainians
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Ukrainian
Then they came for the Israelis
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for the Europeans
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a European
Then they came for the Africans
And I did not speak out
Because I was not an African
Then they came for America
And there was no one left
To speak out for us...

--
"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have
forgotten your aim."

George Santayana

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 14/10/2024 10:45, D wrote:
>> Yep, looks like Lars was actually the one with the wrong facts. On the
>> other hand, I suspect some danish influence, and given that, a leaning
>> towards the (socialist) democrats is only natural.
>>
>> I think the party that has elevated lawfare to new heights is in fact the
>> Democrats, so if I could vote, it would be Trump all the way.
>>
>> The democrats are insane.
>
> The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
> globally by becoming isolationist.
>
> I am a natural centre right person. But the Donald has gone too far and cost
> thousands of Ukrainian lives already by reneging on the terms of the USAs
> relationship with Ukraine.
>
> Ukraine is not 'Europe's problem'
>
> Russia is a global problem alonng with Iran, North Korea China and all the
> other totalitarian post communist or islamfascist states.
>
> Making Russia great again is Putins dream, but if he destroys teh USAs export
> marlet, its the USAs problem.
>
> Right now its the Ukraine and the Israelis at the thin end of the wedge, but
> it will in the end be ordinary americans, and the longer you let these
> dictators get away with it the harder they become to stop.
>
> First they came for the Ukrainians
> And I did not speak out
> Because I was not a Ukrainian
> Then they came for the Israelis
> And I did not speak out
> Because I was not a Jew
> Then they came for the Europeans
> And I did not speak out
> Because I was not a European
> Then they came for the Africans
> And I did not speak out
> Because I was not an African
> Then they came for America
> And there was no one left
> To speak out for us...
>

I think it is important to make a difference between what Trump says (in
order to get conservative votes) and what Trump does.

Trump is smart, and he of course knows that without the EU, the US stands
alone against the world. He will of course help the EU, but most likely
with far less money, and way more effectively.

That will push the EU to become more militarily integrated, which will in
turn make the world safer and more stable.

If the EU, like today, continues to suck on the US military teat, the EU
will never develop and become a liability instead of an asset.

The road forward is pretty clear and pretty easy. Russia will lose, his
oligarchs will kill him, in his place, they will select someone more
pro-west, so they can enjoy their playgrounds and yachts again, and then
we'll continue towards prospery together with a more western oriented
russia.

Another option, if they insist on the crazy path, is to defang them, and
split russia into the west, and countless little durka-durka-stans,
without weapons and resources. Those will be left to rot, and the western
half will join europe and open for business.

On 2024-10-14, Phillip Frabott <nntp@fulltermprivacy.com> wrote:
> On 10/13/2024 19:47, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>> The fact is that for decades, the Republican administrations have run up
>> the deficits, while Democrats have reduced them.
>>
>
> https://fiscaldata.treasury.gov/americas-finance-guide/national-deficit/#us-deficit-by-year
>
> ^^ I would like to point out, .GOV. It's an official government web site.
>
> Debt totals
>
> $1.99T - W Bush 8 years (2001-2008)
> $7.29T - Obama 8 years (2009-2016)
> $5.56T - Trump 4 years (2017-2020)
> $5.85T - Biden 3 Years (2021-2023) [Does not include 2024 spending]
>
> Party Debt from 2001-2023
>
> $7.55T - Republican Presidents
> $13.15T - Democrat Presidents
>
> BTW, it saddens me that you can't find this information on your own.

I did not say that Democratic administrations had reduced the debt, I
said they had reduced the deficit, while Republican adminsistrations
tend to increase the deficit (which is the derivative of the debt).

Republicans make a lot of noise about debt and deficits, but are
unwilling to collect the taxes needed to finance the expenses that they
want to maintain.

This will be my last comment on the subject.

- Lars Poulsen

--
Born a Happy Dane, became a citizen in 2016 in order to vote.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
> globally by becoming isolationist.

It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
destructive third world states.

On 10/14/2024 09:55, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>
> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
> destructive third world states.

Israel doesn't really need our help because they kick ass anyways, and
the Ukraine Protection deal was revoked during Obama's presidency (Which
again, the democrats wanted and now they are crying about it).

The US needs to do what every other country does, only get involved when
it is in our best interests. If it helps us to help the EU or some other
nation I'll all for it, but helping for the sake of helping with no real
world benefit to the US needs to stop.

So I'm right there with you.

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On 14/10/2024 13:47, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 14/10/2024 10:45, D wrote:
>>> Yep, looks like Lars was actually the one with the wrong facts. On
>>> the other hand, I suspect some danish influence, and given that, a
>>> leaning towards the (socialist) democrats is only natural.
>>>
>>> I think the party that has elevated lawfare to new heights is in fact
>>> the Democrats, so if I could vote, it would be Trump all the way.
>>>
>>> The democrats are insane.
>>
>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>
>> I am a natural  centre right person. But the Donald has gone too far
>> and cost thousands of Ukrainian lives already by reneging on the terms
>> of the USAs relationship with Ukraine.
>>
>> Ukraine is not 'Europe's problem'
>>
>> Russia is a global problem alonng with Iran, North Korea China and all
>> the other totalitarian post communist or islamfascist  states.
>>
>> Making Russia great again is Putins dream, but if he destroys teh USAs
>> export marlet, its the USAs problem.
>>
>> Right now its the Ukraine and the Israelis at the thin end of the
>> wedge, but it will in the end be ordinary americans, and the longer
>> you let these dictators get away with it the harder they become to stop.
>>
>> First they came for the Ukrainians
>> And I did not speak out
>> Because I was not a Ukrainian
>> Then they came for the Israelis
>> And I did not speak out
>> Because I was not a Jew
>> Then they came for the Europeans
>> And I did not speak out
>> Because I was not a European
>> Then they came for the Africans
>> And I did not speak out
>> Because I was not an African
>> Then they came for America
>> And there was no one left
>> To speak out for us...
>>
>
> I think it is important to make a difference between what Trump says (in
> order to get conservative votes) and what Trump does.
>
> Trump is smart, and he of course knows that without the EU, the US
> stands alone against the world. He will of course help the EU, but most
> likely with far less money, and way more effectively.
>
He almost caused Ukraine to lose by holding up the budget.

What Trump does will be as far as Europe is concerned, is to let Russia
occupy Ukraine forever.

> That will push the EU to become more militarily integrated, which will
> in turn make the world safer and more stable.
>
The EU has no army navy or air force (thank god, as they are about as
trustworthy and ambitious as Putin)

The nations of Europe and beyond belong to at most NATO, and Donald
lied about that.

> If the EU, like today, continues to suck on the US military teat, the EU
> will never develop and become a liability instead of an asset.
>
The EU is not yet a military power.

> The road forward is pretty clear and pretty easy. Russia will lose, his
> oligarchs will kill him, in his place, they will select someone more
> pro-west, so they can enjoy their playgrounds and yachts again, and then
> we'll continue towards prospery together with a more western oriented
> russia.
>
Well yes, but witholding military aid from Ukraine is not the way to
achieve that.

> Another option, if they insist on the crazy path, is to defang them, and
> split russia into the west, and countless little durka-durka-stans,
> without weapons and resources. Those will be left to rot, and the
> western half will join europe and open for business.

That may well happen too, but that is not what Trump has stated he
wants, nor its it what MAGA has acted to promote.

The USA had a deal with Ukraine and it has a deal with NATO.
If it turns it back on either or both, its status as the protector of
the free world disintegrates, and No European nation will support it
when China comes knocking

--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

On 14/10/2024 14:55, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>
> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
> destructive third world states.
They are not self destructive.
USA is already under attack from the modern 'axis of evil' . Jealous of
its power and wealth every single Russian Kleptocrat or Islamic theocrat
hates and fears America, and are *actively * seeking its destruction.
How many 'movements' and 'woke memes originate in Moscow or Tehran?

If you want to elect the 'Manchurian candidate' don't expect me to
sympathise when the rest of the world turns its back on the USA.
That doesn't mean I support the wimpy wet Kamala. It's just that she
represents slightly less direct threat to the USA and the nations of
Europe, Canada, Australia, who didn't hold back when Japan fucked you over.
It's clear Trump owes Mr Putin something. And its payback time. I don't
want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 14/10/2024 18:13, Phillip Frabott wrote:
> On 10/14/2024 09:55, rbowman wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>
>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>> destructive third world states.
>
> Israel doesn't really need our help because they kick ass anyways, and
> the Ukraine Protection deal was revoked during Obama's presidency (Which
> again, the democrats wanted and now they are crying about it).
>
> The US needs to do what every other country does, only get involved when
> it is in our best interests. If it helps us to help the EU or some other
> nation

The EU is not a nation. It is an overweight and pompous bureaucracy with
no army, no navy, no air force, and no economy

If it disappeared tomorrow EEuropoe would be a better place

I'll all for it, but helping for the sake of helping with no real
> world benefit to the US needs to stop.
>
It is absolutely for your benefit

You have to be gullible to think that it isn't

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>
> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
> destructive third world states.
>

This is the truth!

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

>> I think it is important to make a difference between what Trump says (in
>> order to get conservative votes) and what Trump does.
>>
>> Trump is smart, and he of course knows that without the EU, the US stands
>> alone against the world. He will of course help the EU, but most likely
>> with far less money, and way more effectively.
>>
> He almost caused Ukraine to lose by holding up the budget.

Incorrect. They are still doing well, and it US would have backed down,
the EU would have ramped up.

> What Trump does will be as far as Europe is concerned, is to let Russia
> occupy Ukraine forever.

Incorrect. Trump is pro-business, and will help EU against Russia. Don't
buy the democratic rhetoric. What Trump will _not_ do however, is to
throw billions upon billions into a black hole. That is smart, and will
benefit americans, and also, as I have explained, europeans, in the long
term.

>> That will push the EU to become more militarily integrated, which will in
>> turn make the world safer and more stable.
>>
> The EU has no army navy or air force (thank god, as they are about as
> trustworthy and ambitious as Putin)

The EU has plenty. You can add up the military capacity of each
individual country. This is the integration you will see if/when the US
ramps down.

The EU economy is also about 15x larger than russias, and the population
is about 3x. If there's a full war, Russia will lose to badly, it will
embarass them for generations to come.

Putin knows that. That is why he is yelling and screaming, and doing the
minimum maximum he can out of fear of provoking europe to take action
against him.

> The nations of Europe and beyond belong to at most NATO, and Donald lied
> about that.

I don't know what you are talking about. Donald did however, without
being president or having any official power, make the europeans step up
with the funding to Nato. That shows how brilliant he is, and that you
should look at what Trump does or achieves, _not_ what he says. His
words are tools to create action, they are not the purpose in and of
themselves.

>
>
>> If the EU, like today, continues to suck on the US military teat, the EU
>> will never develop and become a liability instead of an asset.
>>
> The EU is not yet a military power.

It is. See above.

>> The road forward is pretty clear and pretty easy. Russia will lose, his
>> oligarchs will kill him, in his place, they will select someone more
>> pro-west, so they can enjoy their playgrounds and yachts again, and then
>> we'll continue towards prospery together with a more western oriented
>> russia.
>>
> Well yes, but witholding military aid from Ukraine is not the way to achieve
> that.

It is. Let europe and ukraine handle that.

>> Another option, if they insist on the crazy path, is to defang them, and
>> split russia into the west, and countless little durka-durka-stans, without
>> weapons and resources. Those will be left to rot, and the western half will
>> join europe and open for business.
>
> That may well happen too, but that is not what Trump has stated he wants, nor
> its it what MAGA has acted to promote.

What Trump is irrelevant, what he does is relevant.

> The USA had a deal with Ukraine and it has a deal with NATO.
> If it turns it back on either or both, its status as the protector of the
> free world disintegrates, and No European nation will support it when China
> comes knocking

Incorrect. The US does not have any obligations to play world police.
Trump, playing this the way he does, will stimulate EU to grow and
develop into a second world police. Then there will be two, instead of
today, only one, which is the US. Time for EU to pay its fair share and
stop free riding on the US. This is only elementary logic and common
sense.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 14/10/2024 14:55, rbowman wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is that the altenative - the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>
>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>> destructive third world states.
> They are not self destructive.
> USA is already under attack from the modern 'axis of evil' . Jealous of its
> power and wealth every single Russian Kleptocrat or Islamic theocrat hates
> and fears America, and are *actively * seeking its destruction. How many
> 'movements' and 'woke memes originate in Moscow or Tehran?
>
> If you want to elect the 'Manchurian candidate' don't expect me to sympathise
> when the rest of the world turns its back on the USA.
> That doesn't mean I support the wimpy wet Kamala. It's just that she
> represents slightly less direct threat to the USA and the nations of Europe,
> Canada, Australia, who didn't hold back when Japan fucked you over.
> It's clear Trump owes Mr Putin something. And its payback time. I don't want
> Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>

They have wanted that the past 50 years, and have not achieved anything.
That testifies to the incompetence and weakness of the enemy, and the
brilliance of the US, _despite_ the democrat party.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I don't
> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.

Better Putin than Soros.

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 21:56:08 +0200, D wrote:

> The EU has plenty. You can add up the military capacity of each
> individual country. This is the integration you will see if/when the US
> ramps down.

There is nothing in the Copenhagen criteria about having an effective
military.

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-listing-european-union.php

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?
country1=italy&country2=france

The comparison of Italy and France lists the factors they apparently
consider for their power index. It's an interesting algorithm when Italy
comes out the top dog. They haven't been much of a military success story
since the fall of Rome.

On 14/10/2024 20:48, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 11:46:03 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is that the altenative -  the Doonald, will weaken the USA
>>> globally by becoming isolationist.
>>
>> It won't happen but I consider that a plus point. Neither the Ukraine or
>> Israel are US states, let alone Haiti, Somalia, and other seflf
>> destructive third world states.
>>
>
> This is the truth!

It is also extremely short sighted.
And the USA is not part of Putin's Empire - yet.
How *much* does the Orange Jesus owe Mr Vlad?

More, or less, than Barack Obama?

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On 14/10/2024 20:56, D wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>> I think it is important to make a difference between what Trump says
>>> (in order to get conservative votes) and what Trump does.
>>>
>>> Trump is smart, and he of course knows that without the EU, the US
>>> stands alone against the world. He will of course help the EU, but
>>> most likely with far less money, and way more effectively.
>>>
>> He almost caused Ukraine to lose by holding up the budget.
>
> Incorrect. They are still doing well, and it US would have backed down,
> the EU would have ramped up.

What with? It has no exonomy?
Its just a parasitic bureaucracy.
It does notr set Eripean natins foreign policy. It juts pretends thaqt
it does.

>
>> What Trump  does will be as far as Europe is concerned, is to let
>> Russia occupy Ukraine forever.
>
> Incorrect. Trump is pro-business, and will help EU against Russia. Don't
> buy the democratic rhetoric. What Trump will _not_ do however, is to
> throw billions upon billions into a black hole. That is smart, and will
> benefit americans, and also, as I have explained, europeans, in the long
> term.
>

*shakes head sadly*

He is so business that when Putin lent him....well it was more than
Hunter Biden anyway...

He is so business that he wants to forgoe the opportunity to actually
get billions in debt for defunct obsolescent hardware, he would rather
write it off than sell it to Ukraine?

Wake up! ALL of your politicians are working for someone. That's how
they got there.

>>> That will push the EU to become more militarily integrated, which
>>> will in turn make the world safer and more stable.
>>>
>> The EU has no army navy or air force (thank god, as they are about as
>> trustworthy and ambitious as Putin)
>
> The EU has plenty. You can add up the military capacity of each
> individual country. This is the integration you will see if/when the US
> ramps down.
>
Dont be silly. No European nation wants to put its military under EU
control.
That's why they are in NATO.

> The EU economy is also about 15x larger than russias, and the population
> is about 3x. If there's a full war, Russia will lose to badly, it will
> embarass them for generations to come.
>

The EU HAS NO ECONOMY. It is not the United states of Europe. It is
nearer the United socialist Soviet republic of Europe. A remote entity
trying to recreate the USSR by having a series of puppet states.

> Putin knows that. That is why he is yelling and screaming, and doing the
> minimum maximum he can out of fear of provoking europe to take action
> against him.
>

Europe is a continent. It can't take action.
The EU is a bureaucracy it has nothing to take action with

Only the sovereign nations of Europe can take action, and they are. FAR
more than the USA

Denmark and Estonia have contributed the most. Per capita. But they are
small countries.

The USA ranks 17th in net contributions per citizen. A miserly contribution.
Even Belgium has done better,

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/

>> The nations of Europe and beyond belong to at most NATO, and Donald
>> lied about that.
>
> I don't know what you are talking about. Donald did however, without
> being president or having any official power, make the europeans step up
> with the funding to Nato. That shows how brilliant he is, and that you
> should look at what Trump does or achieves, _not_ what he says. His
> words are tools to create action, they are not the purpose in and of
> themselves.
>
Oh FFFS. I cant deal with another cult member tonight.

Donald is not some superman. He is just another egotistical little shit
with his eye on the main chance. In the end no better than Obama.

>>
>>
>>> If the EU, like today, continues to suck on the US military teat, the
>>> EU will never develop and become a liability instead of an asset.
>>>
>> The EU is not yet a military power.
>
> It is. See above.
>
It is not

"The European army or EU army are terms for a hypothetical army of the
European Union which would supersede the Common Security and Defence
Policy and would go beyond the proposed European Defence Union.
Currently, there is no such army, and defence is a matter for the member
states. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army

>>> The road forward is pretty clear and pretty easy. Russia will lose,
>>> his oligarchs will kill him, in his place, they will select someone
>>> more pro-west, so they can enjoy their playgrounds and yachts again,
>>> and then we'll continue towards prospery together with a more western
>>> oriented russia.
>>>
>> Well yes, but witholding military aid from Ukraine is not the way to
>> achieve that.
>
> It is. Let europe and ukraine handle that.
>

Europe dioesnt exist as a country. They are already pulling way above
their weight.

>>> Another option, if they insist on the crazy path, is to defang them,
>>> and split russia into the west, and countless little
>>> durka-durka-stans, without weapons and resources. Those will be left
>>> to rot, and the western half will join europe and open for business.
>>
>> That may well happen too, but that is not what Trump has stated he
>> wants, nor its it what MAGA has acted to promote.
>
> What Trump is irrelevant, what he does is relevant.

Exatcly. He nearly allowed Russia to win by stalling arms that had
already been promised, a dirty political truck worthy of a democrat.

Leaving Ukraine in the shit.

>
>> The USA had a deal with Ukraine and it has a deal with NATO.
>> If it turns it back on either or both, its status as the protector of
>> the free world disintegrates, and  No European nation will support it
>> when China comes knocking
>
> Incorrect. The US does not have any obligations to play world police.

I never said that it did.
But that is it status, deserved or not,

> Trump, playing this the way he does, will stimulate EU to grow and
> develop into a second world police. Then there will be two, instead of
> today, only one, which is the US. Time for EU to pay its fair share and
> stop free riding on the US. This is only elementary logic and common
> sense.

Christ on a bike. The EU are the second biggest threat to world peace
after the Russin/Ianian NORK axis.

That last thing you want is a military power run by a bunch of communist
and ex communist apparatchiks.

You are woefully ill informed.

--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On 14/10/2024 20:57, D wrote:
> They have wanted that the past 50 years, and have not achieved anything.
> That testifies to the incompetence and weakness of the enemy, and the
> brilliance of the US, _despite_ the democrat party.

You poor sucker. You have no idea.

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

On 14/10/2024 22:29, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> I don't
>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>
> Better Putin than Soros.

Phew. That you could say that is the most frightening thing I have heard.

--
“Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

H.L. Mencken, A Mencken Chrestomathy

On Tue, 15 Oct 2024 00:12:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 14/10/2024 22:29, rbowman wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> I don't
>>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>>
>> Better Putin than Soros.
>
> Phew. That you could say that is the most frightening thing I have
> heard.

"Be afraid. Be very afraid."

Wednesday Adams

"We are forces of chaos and anarchy
Everything they say we are, we are
And we are very proud of ourselves"

Kantner and Balin

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxA3Q96a8XE

On Mon, 14 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Oct 2024 18:39:25 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> I don't
>> want Putin running the USA like it was Chechnya.
>
> Better Putin than Soros.
>

I have compared them both scientifically, and it is actualyl proven that
Soros society would be a nicer one, than Putins. If you step away from the
main cities in russia, the people in the country side live under
close to medieval living conditions that would make all americans revolt.

That's what you get with a kleptocracy and an authoritarian system built
to exploit the people and enrich its leaders.