On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 10:40:21 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I say... drop the fitbit and take a walk and do some pushups. Then
>> you'll be find, and you will have one less device to worry about! =)
>
> The distance and heart rate metrics are useful to make sure the walk
> doesn't turn into a stroll. Lately I've been doing my version of Nordic
> walking. It's interesting how the upper body involvement adds to the
> exercise.
>
> I'd been using a pedometer app that was fairly accurate for distance. The
> fitbit uses the phone's GPS so can be a little more accurate although it's
> not foolproof.
>

Horses for courses. Too much data for me and yet another gadget. I'll
stick with my analog ways when it comes to training. ;) A routine which
works for me is pullups, one arm pushups and dragonflags every other days.
It has kept me fairly healthy. I recommend it! =)

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 10:45:41 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> A free range cat? Do you ever have problems with ticks? Every summer in
>> the country house when I was young, the neighbours cat would more or
>> less move in with us since the food was better than the dry food he got
>> at his home. But sometimes it would happen that I would read, and the
>> cat wanted petting. So I petted the cat while reading, then look at my
>> hand to discover ticks crawling there. So the cat brought us rich gifts
>> in the form of ticks and the occasional dead (or alive) mice.
>
> No, I've never seen tics on the cat. I've picked them up hiking but not
> around home. The local version is the Rocky Mountain Wood Tick and true to
> its name seems to prefer brushy areas. I don't think the cat goes out to
> the tree line. There be dragons there.
>

Ahh... smart cat! And very convenient! I read there's some kind of collar
you can buy for cats that has some chemical that spreads throughout the
fur and repels ticks. I do not know how effective it is, so caveta emptor!

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2025-01-17, Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 17/01/2025 02:53, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>>
>>> I never understood how any business - large or small - could be
>>> comfortable having their financial information or their proprietary
>>> technical data on a cloud server.
>>
>> Because people do not understand what they're doing. Some think "cloud"
>> is a magical panacea for all things: they don't really understand it
>> simply means getting someone else to manage (and thereby have access to)
>> their data.
>
> People have become too dependent on the Internet.
> It Clouds their thinking.

Touché! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHCBiNIjgY4 .

P.S. Warning. After the 5:th time playing this at the end of my wifes
sentences she threatened to beat me up. Use with caution!

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2025-01-17, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> I do not like ticks. They remind me of politicians and I would not be
>> displeased if they all disappeared.
>
> The word "politics" derives from "poly", as in many,
> and "ticks", as in blood-sucking parasites.
>

Touché! You know the drill...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHCBiNIjgY4 !

On 18/01/2025 02:46, Paul wrote:
> On Fri, 1/17/2025 11:48 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 16/01/2025 13:25, Alan K. wrote:
>>>> If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
>>>> Interface: apt install usbrelay
>>>> usbrelay --debug for information
>>>>
>>>> 1, 2, 3, 8 channels available
>>>>
>>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
>>> That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.
>>
>>
>> Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>
>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home construction, especially for unattended operation.
>>
>> It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.
>
> You can use a relay, to switch a relay.
>

No need., You can use a transistor to buffer a PIO output and drive a
sensibly big relay directly

I sourced some 20A 250V relays from china that seem OK

JQX-15F-DC05V-A 4PIN

Is the magic keyword.

They take about a watt (200mA@5V) to drive them - beyond most PIO
(16mA=80mW for the pico) but easily obtainable with a single transistor
amplifier.

Strangely Europe doesn't make shit like this - you end up with massive
contactors at a huge price instead.

--
“The urge to save humanity is almost always only a false face for the
urge to rule it.”
– H. L. Mencken

On 18/01/2025 08:55, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 18/01/2025 02:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>
>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>
>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>> construction ...
>>
>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>> electrician help to set it up.
>
> Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
> ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.
>
>
He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to get
that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.

--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 18/01/2025 10:38, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 10:45:41 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> A free range cat? Do you ever have problems with ticks? Every summer in
>>> the country house when I was young, the neighbours cat would more or
>>> less move in with us since the food was better than the dry food he got
>>> at his home. But sometimes it would happen that I would read, and the
>>> cat wanted petting. So I petted the cat while reading, then look at my
>>> hand to discover ticks crawling there. So the cat brought us rich gifts
>>> in the form of ticks and the occasional dead (or alive) mice.
>>
>> No, I've never seen tics on the cat. I've picked them up hiking but not
>> around home. The local version is the Rocky Mountain Wood Tick and
>> true to
>> its name seems to prefer brushy areas. I don't think the cat goes out to
>> the tree line. There be dragons there.
>>
>
> Ahh... smart cat! And very convenient! I read there's some kind of
> collar you can buy for cats that has some chemical that spreads
> throughout the fur and repels ticks. I do not know how effective it is,
> so caveta emptor!

Its pretty good.

But so is spraying them,. They hate it, but that works too

--
"It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's"
Joew Walsh

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> Mike Scott wrote:
>
>> I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>> construction ...
>
> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
> outlet.

No, it's exactly the limit of a UK 13A socket (assuming the nominal
230V, in practice most will be above 240V) but they do tend to suffer
when used with long running at full load (poor contact -> high
resistance -> heating -> charring -> fire)

> Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
> electrician help to set it up.

I wouldn't trust a smart switch on a long-term load such as an immersion
heater, there are 20A versions, I think I'd prefer using a smart switch
to drive a chunkier contactor and hardwired terminals.

On 18/01/2025 11:19, Andy Burns wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Mike Scott wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>> construction ...
>>
>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>> outlet.
>
> No, it's exactly the limit of a UK 13A socket (assuming the nominal
> 230V, in practice most will be above 240V) but they do tend to suffer
> when used with long running at full load (poor contact -> high
> resistance -> heating -> charring -> fire)
>
>> Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>> electrician help to set it up.
>
> I wouldn't trust a smart switch on a long-term load such as an immersion
> heater, there are 20A versions, I think I'd prefer using a smart switch
> to drive a chunkier contactor and hardwired terminals.
>
Well I have yet to code up my board that has a simple 20A relay.

I'd probably use a GTO thyristor with an opto-coupler than a contactor.
It's cheaper

--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

On 18/01/2025 11:01, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/01/2025 02:46, Paul wrote:
>> On Fri, 1/17/2025 11:48 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> On 16/01/2025 13:25, Alan K. wrote:
>>>>> If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue
>>>>> Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
>>>>> Interface: apt install usbrelay
>>>>> usbrelay --debug for information
>>>>>
>>>>> 1, 2, 3, 8 channels available
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
>>>> That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course
>>>> Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a
>>>> huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.
>>>
>>>
>>> Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>
>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>> construction, especially for unattended operation.
>>>
>>> It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.
>>
>> You can use a relay, to switch a relay.
>>
>
> No need., You can use a transistor to buffer a PIO output and drive a
> sensibly big relay directly
>
> I sourced some 20A 250V relays from china that seem OK
>
> JQX-15F-DC05V-A 4PIN
>
> Is the magic keyword.
>
> They take about a watt (200mA@5V) to drive them - beyond most PIO
> (16mA=80mW for the pico) but easily obtainable with a single transistor
> amplifier.
>
> Strangely Europe doesn't make shit like this - you end up with massive
> contactors at a huge price instead.
>
>
>
>
A good solution might be a 'solid state relay ',which is an opto-coupled
device for 3 - 30 Volt -DC input combined with a triac output for up
to 240V-AC
I have used these as intermediate switch between low voltage DC systems
and AC powered devices.

Frank in County Wicklow -Ireland

On 2025-01-18 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/01/2025 08:55, Mike Scott wrote:
>> On 18/01/2025 02:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>>
>>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>>> construction ...
>>>
>>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>>> electrician help to set it up.
>>
>> Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
>> ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.
>>
>>
> He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to get
> that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.

What is illegal?

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On 18/01/2025 13:13, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-01-18 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 18/01/2025 08:55, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2025 02:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>>>
>>>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>>>> construction ...
>>>>
>>>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>>>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>>>> electrician help to set it up.
>>>
>>> Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
>>> ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.
>>>
>>>
>> He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to
>> get that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.
>
> What is illegal?
>
Appliances that draw more than 1.5kW from memory.

Oh. No. They have changed it

"All electrical equipment has an assigned electrical power (small or
large) that is expressed in Watts (W) or kilowatts (kW). If we use
several devices simultaneously, the electrical power of each adds up,
until we reach a point where we can no longer use more equipment at a
time so that this sum exceeds the electrical power we have contracted.
This is the maximum power that can be consumed simultaneously.

When the maximum power is exceeded, the new digital meters disconnect
the service and the home runs out of electricity supply. The most
economical and efficient way to use electric energy is to have a low
contracted power, as this will optimise the use of the equipment and
reduce the fixed cost of the electricity bill."

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>
>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>> construction ...

On 2025-01-18, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
> electrician help to set it up.

If I remember correctly,

US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.

This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.

This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.

But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual. It does require a
heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
stoves and EV chargers. Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.

On 2025-01-18, Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>
>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>> construction ...
>
> On 2025-01-18, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>> electrician help to set it up.
>
> If I remember correctly,
>
> US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
> EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
> UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.

Arrgh ... I did NOT remember correctly. While the fuse on the panel in
UK is 27A, the plugs are fused for max 13A, i.e. 3.0kW.

> This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
> And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
> have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.

Yet, 3kW is a great tea kettle.

> This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.

Actually, this correction makes it make less sense.

> But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual. It does require a
> heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
> to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
> stoves and EV chargers. Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
> are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
> allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.
>
>

On 18/01/2025 15:12, Lars Poulsen wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>
>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>> construction ...
>
> On 2025-01-18, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>> electrician help to set it up.
>
> If I remember correctly,
>
> US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
> EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
> UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.

No.

UK plush are fused by law at 13A max. 3kW. The outlets are not rated for
more than that, and if used at that a lot may end up arcing

The *rings* to which they are connected are typically fused at 32A so
that more than one appliance can use them.

Lighting circuits are typically limited to 16A.

More power is permitted if it is to a dedicated appliance and a
dedicated circuit breaker.

The intention is as follows.
1/. The house will have a 60A or 100A fuse in the supply. This limits
the maximum power the house can draw.
2/. Lights are wired on a star or daisy chain spur with the breaker
representing the maximum safe current for the *wire*.
3/. Special appliances will get their own private circuit and breaker.
Typically a cooker might be on a 45A spur, permanently wired in, but
that is all that is on it, and the cable size must be matched to that.
4/. General purpose sockets are on 30A or 32A breakers and must be wired
as a *ring*. This means that te cable does not have to carry the full
current. Any ring can delver about 7kW

Every socket is rated at 13A only, but you can have many many sockets on
a ring. This limits appliances to 3kW normally.

The general principle is to fuse at the 'consumer unit' the central
'fuse' box, to prevent *house* wiring catching fire ONLY.

The appliances are fused to protect *their * wiring

And the internals are also typically fused if electronic.

All user accessible sockets must be earthedm and the ring circuit
ensures diverse earth routes.

>
> This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
> And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
> have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.
>
> This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.
>

Well they are not 'massively huge'.
And its a fair price to pay for probably the best wiring regulations in
the world.
Britain doesn't often get stuff exactly right but this one is.

The US arrangements horrify me.

> But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual.

Absolutely illegal in the UK. Except for specialist applications like
maybe a EV charger.

> It does require a
> heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
> to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
> stoves and EV chargers.

Horrifying. 50A for a washing machine? Not in the UK. 13A max unless you
are on industrial three phase or it has a dedicated circuit assigned to
it and is hard wired.

Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
> are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
> allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.
>
>
No reason not to wire your house up for 220V and a british wiring
system. And by british washing machines :-)

A guy I knew in S Africa wired his house with German sockets - he was
German. I used UK extension leads to run my UK kit off when I was there.

--
I was brought up to believe that you should never give offence if you
can avoid it; the new culture tells us you should always take offence if
you can. There are now experts in the art of taking offence, indeed
whole academic subjects, such as 'gender studies', devoted to it.

Sir Roger Scruton

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 18/01/2025 10:38, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 10:45:41 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> A free range cat? Do you ever have problems with ticks? Every summer in
>>>> the country house when I was young, the neighbours cat would more or
>>>> less move in with us since the food was better than the dry food he got
>>>> at his home. But sometimes it would happen that I would read, and the
>>>> cat wanted petting. So I petted the cat while reading, then look at my
>>>> hand to discover ticks crawling there. So the cat brought us rich gifts
>>>> in the form of ticks and the occasional dead (or alive) mice.
>>>
>>> No, I've never seen tics on the cat. I've picked them up hiking but not
>>> around home. The local version is the Rocky Mountain Wood Tick and true to
>>> its name seems to prefer brushy areas. I don't think the cat goes out to
>>> the tree line. There be dragons there.
>>>
>>
>> Ahh... smart cat! And very convenient! I read there's some kind of collar
>> you can buy for cats that has some chemical that spreads throughout the fur
>> and repels ticks. I do not know how effective it is, so caveta emptor!
>
> Its pretty good.
>
> But so is spraying them,. They hate it, but that works too

Could be a good punishment for when they have been naughty?

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:38:46 +0100, D wrote:

> Ahh... smart cat! And very convenient! I read there's some kind of
> collar you can buy for cats that has some chemical that spreads
> throughout the fur and repels ticks. I do not know how effective it is,
> so caveta emptor!

I use a permethrin spray on my clothing during tick season. It doesn't
repel ticks but fries their nervous system. It's also used for dogs but
cats can't break it down as rapidly as other mammals.

Fipronil is used for cats and can be sprayed on. It's widely used and is
suspected to be a factor in bee colony collapse however. A collar for an
outdoor cat isn't a good idea. If it's loose enough so they can get out of
it if it snags it's loose enough they will paw it off in short order.

The local subreddit often has hot arguments about cats. Someone will post
about a collarless cat who must be 'lost'. People more familiar with cats
will tell them to just leave the cat alone. There probably are some
lifetime house cats that can get lost but outdoor semi-feral cats have
their own agenda.

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:04:14 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Its pretty good.
>
> But so is spraying them,. They hate it, but that works too

I used to hold flea clinics when we had several cats. If you pick them up
by the scruff of the neck like a mother cat they are immobilized and you
can spray them down. Their eyes aren't immobilized and they are promising
to kill you when you put them down.

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:37:43 +0100, D wrote:

> Horses for courses. Too much data for me and yet another gadget. I'll
> stick with my analog ways when it comes to training. A routine which
> works for me is pullups, one arm pushups and dragonflags every other
> days.
> It has kept me fairly healthy. I recommend it! =)

I had to look up dragon flags. Never heard of it. I haven't done pullups
for some time. The muscles were willing but the joints and tendons
protested. There is a machine at the gym that allows for pullups at less
than full body weigh but it's cumbersome.

On 2025-01-18 14:46, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 18/01/2025 13:13, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-01-18 12:02, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> On 18/01/2025 08:55, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>> On 18/01/2025 02:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>>>>> construction ...
>>>>>
>>>>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical
>>>>> household
>>>>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>>>>> electrician help to set it up.
>>>>
>>>> Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using
>>>> a ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric
>>>> heater.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> He is probably Murrican or European. Murricans need to go to 220V to
>>> get that sort of power and in Spain its illegal.
>>
>> What is illegal?
>>
> Appliances that draw more than 1.5kW from memory.
>
> Oh. No. They have changed it

On "modern" houses sockets are rated for 16A, being schuko type like
maybe the entire EU.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schuko>

You may be confused because I have mentioned in conversations that my
entire (old) house is limited to 10A (actually 15 because design flaw of
the meter-limiter), because it is an old installation that doesn't have
a modern certification.

On a certified house you may easily have 10 KW, sometimes 15. More if
you contract the three phases.

>
> "All electrical equipment has an assigned electrical power (small or
> large) that is expressed in Watts (W) or kilowatts (kW). If we use
> several devices simultaneously, the electrical power of each adds up,
> until we reach a point where we can no longer use more equipment at a
> time so that this sum exceeds the electrical power we have contracted.
> This is the maximum power that can be consumed simultaneously.
>
> When the maximum power is exceeded, the new digital meters disconnect
> the service and the home runs out of electricity supply. The most
> economical and efficient way to use electric energy is to have a low
> contracted power, as this will optimise the use of the equipment and
> reduce the fixed cost of the electricity bill."
>
>

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Sat, 1/18/2025 10:12 AM, Lars Poulsen wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>>
>>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>>> construction ...
>
> On 2025-01-18, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
>> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
>> electrician help to set it up.
>
> If I remember correctly,
>
> US home outlets are 120V 15A. So 1800W max.
> EU home outlets are 230V 10A, so 2300W max.
> UK home outlets are 230V 27A, so 6.2kW max.
>
> This is why electric tea kettles work so well in the UK.
> And if I remember, there is a fuse in the PLUG, so an appliance can
> have a cord with a smaller fuse if it doesn't need the full power.
>
> This is why the UK plugs are so massively huge.
>
> But even in the US, a 20A outlet is not unusual. It does require a
> heavier wire gauge in the walls. And 240V with amperages from 10A
> to 50A is common for washing machines, laundry dryers, electric
> stoves and EV chargers. Unfortunately, the plugs allowed for them
> are a motley collection of incompatible versions. I wish they would
> allow the EU Schuko for 10A, and the UK socket for up to 30A.

Tsk. North American homes have two voltages within the house.
It is a center tapped 230V system. If you take the center tap
and one hot, that's 115V. If you measure between the two hot leads,
that is 230V.

--- hot1 \___ bedroom1 The low power outlets are
--- neutral / balanced across the two sides
of the center tap. This helps
--- hot2 \___ bedroom2 balance the loads across the
--- neutral / pole transformer. Since at least
three homes run off one pole can,
--- hot1 \___ bedroom3 the balancing continues on neighbour
--- neutral / homes.

--- hot2 \___ bedroom5 115V wall outlet
--- neutral /

--- hot1 \
--- neutral \___ 230V NEMA 14-50R wall outlet (behind stove, behind dryer)
--- hot2 /
--- SGND 230V power is hard wired to central AC or BEV chargers (if present)

https://www.amazon.ca/Charging-Receptacle-Designed-specifically-Applications/dp/B0CS8FFC1W

hot1 neutral hot2 safety-ground

https://www.amazon.ca/Leviton-279-Receptacle-Industrial-Grounding/dp/B00009W3AA

NEMA 14-50R

Operated at 80% derating, the NEMA likely supports 40A loads (at 230V).

I went downstairs and checked.

I have a 230V 30A quad position breaker for one load (four hole outlet on wall).
I have a 230V 40A quad position breaker for the central air (hard wired) [compressor hard start].

I have a 230V 20A dual position breaker in hand, for a planned electric water heater.
(4.6kW rating, for a 3.5kW water heater on an electrical system with too high a voltage)

I'm on the edge of town, with rural quality wiring in an urban setting.

The measured voltage is 244V on the 230V circuit. Which means
for any sort of electric fire (the clothes dryer), the element
runs warmer than it should.

I think we deserve something a little more generous than
a piddly 1800W rating. I checked the nameplate on the clothes dryer,
and it is 230V 24A and the plate recommends a 30A breaker,
and the 230V 30A quad is provided for that purpose. And since
my mains is actually 244VAC, I expect I'm drawing a bit more
than the 24A number. Breaker doesn't trip in any case. The only
breakers I've had trip, are the 15A bedroom ones.

The air conditioner, doesn't draw anywhere near the breaker rating.
It's only a two ton. The original air conditioner took a bit to start.

I would think a 7kW rating would be fair, because I don't have
any copies of code to argue otherwise. With the panel size,
there may be a diversity limit on drawing too many amps for
a single load, and I think the quad position is as wide as
they're allowed to get.

One brother-in-law, has three 100A service panels in the house.
Two panels for the main house, one panel for the granny flat.
I don't know exactly how many smart meters it takes to measure that :-)
The house is "full of kids", so it's not hard to see where the
power goes. It goes everywhere. Another brother-in-law, runs
a large solar panel setup, so there are likely a few amps going
in the reverse direction there (in summer, when it is sunny).
I don't rate very highly, with my single 100A panel.

Paul

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:38:46 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Ahh... smart cat! And very convenient! I read there's some kind of
>> collar you can buy for cats that has some chemical that spreads
>> throughout the fur and repels ticks. I do not know how effective it is,
>> so caveta emptor!
>
> I use a permethrin spray on my clothing during tick season. It doesn't
> repel ticks but fries their nervous system. It's also used for dogs but
> cats can't break it down as rapidly as other mammals.

Ahh... it works! Surely it must be forbidden in europe then? ;) I will
remember this!

> Fipronil is used for cats and can be sprayed on. It's widely used and is
> suspected to be a factor in bee colony collapse however. A collar for an
> outdoor cat isn't a good idea. If it's loose enough so they can get out of
> it if it snags it's loose enough they will paw it off in short order.
>
> The local subreddit often has hot arguments about cats. Someone will post
> about a collarless cat who must be 'lost'. People more familiar with cats
> will tell them to just leave the cat alone. There probably are some
> lifetime house cats that can get lost but outdoor semi-feral cats have
> their own agenda.

Yes, cats are weird. I only like 1/10 cats or so. Much more of a dog
person. But the 1/10 cats tend to be alright. Once upon a time I trained a
cat to get off my bed on command. He was very smart, but stubborn. I
commanded him to leave the bed, and he would quickly and efficiently obey
and look a bit like "Oops, sorry!". I would leave the room, come back 20
minutes later, and he would be on the bed again. ;)

Due to a fall, he has a short tail, the doctor apparently had to cut part
of it off for some reason. This affected his balance, so sometimes he
would misjudge things and fall down. Then he would alternately look
ashamed of himself, or he would look very very similar to "f*ck you" when
the humans around where laughing at him.

Amazing personality, very cute! It was a cornish rex. They are fairly ok
for people allergic to cats. I would still get allergic reactions if I
would sniff him, but as long as I didn't do that, I only felt something if
I petted him and forgot to wash my hands and scratched my eye or something
like that. Highly recommended cat!

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:04:14 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>
>> Its pretty good.
>>
>> But so is spraying them,. They hate it, but that works too
>
> I used to hold flea clinics when we had several cats. If you pick them up
> by the scruff of the neck like a mother cat they are immobilized and you
> can spray them down. Their eyes aren't immobilized and they are promising
> to kill you when you put them down.
>

Ahh... didn't know that! Did they ever kill anyone when you put them down?
;)

In my experience, cats never forget, so doing something like that can
erase trust quickly and it takes a long time to rebuild, sometimes longer
than a life time.

On Sat, 18 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 18 Jan 2025 11:37:43 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Horses for courses. Too much data for me and yet another gadget. I'll
>> stick with my analog ways when it comes to training. A routine which
>> works for me is pullups, one arm pushups and dragonflags every other
>> days.
>> It has kept me fairly healthy. I recommend it! =)
>
> I had to look up dragon flags. Never heard of it. I haven't done pullups
> for some time. The muscles were willing but the joints and tendons
> protested. There is a machine at the gym that allows for pullups at less
> than full body weigh but it's cumbersome.

I am trying to build up to one arm pullups, but the joints and tendons are
unwilling. My only strategy is to take it slow, and not to force things.
Hopefully I will build up some tolerance over time.

Did you try a dragon flag? =) It's a great core exercise!

On 1/19/25 10:40, D wrote:
>

> I am trying to build up to one arm pullups, but the joints and tendons
> are unwilling. My only strategy is to take it slow, and not to force
> things. Hopefully I will build up some tolerance over time.
>

Is that because you only have one arm, or because you want to look super
hench. My nieces husband is like that. He broke his arm, arm wrestling,
all muscle no bone. It's not sensible.