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BOFH excuse #275: Bit rot


comp / comp.os.linux.misc / Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?

SubjectAuthor
* Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
||+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|||+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
||||+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|||||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
||||| `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
||||+- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Computer Nerd Kev
||||`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Computer Nerd Kev
|||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
||| `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|||  +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|||  |`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|||  `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|||   `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|||    `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|||     +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|||     |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|||     | `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Charlie Gibbs
|||     |  +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|||     |  `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|||     `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?BlueManedHawk
||+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|||+- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|||+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Charlie Gibbs
||||`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
||| +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
||| +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
||| `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|||  `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|||   `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
||`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| |+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| || +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| || `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Charlie Gibbs
|| ||  |+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
|| ||  ||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  || +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
|| ||  || |+- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  || |`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  || +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  || `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  | |+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Andy Burns
|| ||  | ||+- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  | ||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  | || +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | || +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | || +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Andy Burns
|| ||  | || `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Andy Burns
|| ||  | |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | | +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  | | |+- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | | |`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | | `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  | |  `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  | `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  ||`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |  ||+- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  ||+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  |||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  ||| +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |  ||| |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  ||| | `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  ||| |  `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  ||| |   `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  ||| |    `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  ||| |     `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |  ||| |      `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  ||| `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  |||  `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||   +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  |||   |`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||   `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  |||    `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||     `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  |||      `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||       `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  |||        +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |  |||        |`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||        `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||         `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  |||          `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||           +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  |||           |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||           | `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| ||  |  |||           |  `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  |  |||           `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  ||`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  |+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |  |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Rich
|| ||  |  +- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  |  `- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?The Natural Philosopher
|| ||  +* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?D
|| ||  +- Joy of Hydrogen (Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?)Lars Poulsen
|| ||  `- Joy of Hydrogen (Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?)Lars Poulsen
|| |`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?rbowman
|| `* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?186282@ud0s4.net
|+* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Carlos E.R.
|`* Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Carlos E.R.
`- Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?Robert Riches

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Subject: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: 186282@ud0s4.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: wokiesux
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 07:33 UTC
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From: 186283@ud0s4.net (186282@ud0s4.net)
Subject: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Organization: wokiesux
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 02:33:09 -0500
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Latter 70s they were The Thing.

Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
bit-slice processors were yer fix.

They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
could physically attach them to MORE processors.
All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
expanded wider and wider.

You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
physically build something much stronger.

I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
clone that was WAY too capable for the era.

TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.

Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
the interface wiring. Really no longer a
solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
processor :-)

Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
links between many processors to coordinate
things between all the chips (they could have
a shared memory area too).

Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
have future apps.

--
033-33

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: The Natural Philosop
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: A little, after lunch
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 14:29 UTC
References: 1
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 14:29:03 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 07/12/2024 07:33, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
> Latter 70s they were The Thing.
>
> Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
> bit-slice processors were yer fix.
>
> They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
> could physically attach them to MORE processors.
> All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
> expanded wider and wider.
>
> You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
> physically build something much stronger.
>
> I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
> cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
> clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
>
> TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
> a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
>
> Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
> the interface wiring. Really no longer a
> solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
> processor  :-)
>
> Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
> solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
> links between many processors to coordinate
> things between all the chips (they could have
> a shared memory area too).
>
> Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
> were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
> have future apps.
>
>
As an engineer it always amazes me on how such little things the success
of a technology depends.

Aircraft could have been invented hundreds of years earlier if a
lightweight power source had turned up, but steam wasn't good enough,
and it took oil petrol or gas to make the power sources light enough.

Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good
enough to replace IC.

Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.

Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the
integrated circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for
small light electronics for missiles, and here we are.

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 17:35 UTC
References: 1 2
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From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:35:53 +0100
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 07:33, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> Latter 70s they were The Thing.
>>
>> Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
>> bit-slice processors were yer fix.
>>
>> They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
>> could physically attach them to MORE processors.
>> All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
>> expanded wider and wider.
>>
>> You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
>> physically build something much stronger.
>>
>> I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
>> cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
>> clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
>>
>> TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
>> a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
>>
>> Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
>> the interface wiring. Really no longer a
>> solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
>> processor  :-)
>>
>> Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
>> solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
>> links between many processors to coordinate
>> things between all the chips (they could have
>> a shared memory area too).
>>
>> Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
>> were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
>> have future apps.
>>
>>
> As an engineer it always amazes me on how such little things the success of a
> technology depends.
>
> Aircraft could have been invented hundreds of years earlier if a lightweight
> power source had turned up, but steam wasn't good enough, and it took oil
> petrol or gas to make the power sources light enough.
>
> Today's electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good
> enough to replace IC.
>
> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no
> storage able to meet the intermittency problem.

Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press people
_still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only viable way.
I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a battery storage system
would cost that could store all the power for a country, for x days, there
is never an answer.

Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa
somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.

> Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the integrated
> circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for small light
> electronics for missiles, and here we are.
>
>
>
>

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: Rich
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: rich@example.invalid (Rich)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24:17 -0000 (UTC)
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
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D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
>> is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
>
> Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press
> people _still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only
> viable way. I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a
> battery storage system would cost that could store all the power for
> a country, for x days, there is never an answer.

They are ignoring the "storage problem".

100% solar is possible, provided either:

1) you ignore the storage problem and are willing to accept no power
when the sun is not shining (note, interpret broadly enough to
encompass "14+ straight overcast days" as well)

2) are actually talking about "some day" far in the future when energy
storage tech. has advanced to the point that storing enough excess
solar to continue running past those days when the sun isn't shining
is feasable (and affordable)

But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient storage
to cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.

> Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa
> somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.

Nighttime is the big one. Until the world's electric grids are
sufficiently interconnected that power generated in the Saraha Desert
at noon can be shipped to the other side of the world where it is dark
to supply power to that location there *must* be some storage, somehow,
to account for night/twilight/a run of 14+ overcast days/etc.

And, even if the world's electric grid was interconnected sufficient to
ship solar power from Africa to the other side of the globe, we measly
humans would simply use those interconnnects to try to enforce
geopolitical rules on other locations we don't like by attempting to
deny them "night time power".

>> Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the
>> integrated circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for
>> small light electronics for missiles, and here we are.

Throughout history, a great many of human's technological advances have
came about because the "war machine" needed a more efficient way to
strike fear in their opponents.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: The Natural Philosop
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: A little, after lunch
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 19:01 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 19:01:09 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 07/12/2024 17:35, D wrote:
> Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press people
> _still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only viable
> way. I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a battery storage
> system would cost that could store all the power for a country, for x
> days, there is never an answer.
>
> Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa
> somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.

In Africa, the greatest need is for light at night.

Followed by refrigerators, and clean water.

Then comes music sound systems and the TV and mobile phones :-)

Back in the day the Cuban Marxists told the township boys 'come the
revolution, you will all have swimming pools and a Mercedes.

A Zulu friend from Soweto asked me to comment.

I got in touch with someone in the then apartheid government who said
'at the rate we are going there won't be enough water for every home to
even have a flush toilet'

30 years later, that is the reality of South Africa. And it's 30 years
of communist government.

There is barely enough clean water to drink.

The only reliable power is one nuclear power station and a lot of coal
ones. And the educated white 'Liberals' are wanting 'renewable energy'

Sure by putting thousands of Rands of batteries in your house and solar
panels on the roof you can survive a hot African night without power,
and you need to because the grid load sheds every day in winter.

But who will pay for it? The townships are effectively powered for free
by people attaching crocodile clips to the overheads. And it is too
politically sensitive to actually stop them...

As usual after popular revolutions the next thing is those who grab
power fucking everything up completely in a blaze of greed, nepotism and
paranoia.

--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: The Natural Philosop
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: A little, after lunch
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 19:12 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 19:12:44 +0000
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On 07/12/2024 18:24, Rich wrote:
> Nighttime is the big one. Until the world's electric grids are
> sufficiently interconnected that power generated in the Saraha Desert
> at noon can be shipped to the other side of the world where it is dark
> to supply power to that location there*must* be some storage, somehow,
> to account for night/twilight/a run of 14+ overcast days/etc.
>
When I did all these calculations years ago the answer that came up
every time was 'nuclear is simply cheaper, more reliable, more self
sufficient and in every way better'

> And, even if the world's electric grid was interconnected sufficient to
> ship solar power from Africa to the other side of the globe, we measly
> humans would simply use those interconnnects to try to enforce
> geopolitical rules on other locations we don't like by attempting to
> deny them "night time power".

Or the Russians would cut the cable anyway, just for kicks.

--
“The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to
fill the world with fools.”

Herbert Spencer

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: BlueManedHawk
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: A noiseless patient Spider
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 20:15 UTC
References: 1 2
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!bluemanedhawk.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: bluemanedhawk@invalid.invalid (BlueManedHawk)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 15:15:30 -0500
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On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> <snip/>
>
> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
> no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
>
> <snip/>

I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
explored besides storage of electrical energy. One example would be a
device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and
releasing it by dropping the large mass. That particular one is one
that i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic principle
of converting electrical energy to some other, more convenient-to-store
form of energy is behind the ideas i've seen floated around.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: The Natural Philosop
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: A little, after lunch
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 21:10 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: tnp@invalid.invalid (The Natural Philosopher)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 21:10:03 +0000
Organization: A little, after lunch
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On 07/12/2024 20:15, BlueManedHawk wrote:
> On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
>> no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
>>
>> <snip/>
>
> I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
> explored besides storage of electrical energy.  One example would be a
> device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
> potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and
> releasing it by dropping the large mass.  That particular one is one
> that i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic principle
> of converting electrical energy to some other, more convenient-to-store
> form of energy is behind the ideas i've seen floated around.

That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size
of the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be
stored...you sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power
station that doesn't need the storage in the first place.

It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.

A much more reasonable solution is the molten salt cooled nuclear
reactor where molten salt can be stored ready for peak power delivery
above the capability of the reactor in its steady state.

The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it
implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy is a chimaera that always
needs 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.

We will have to put up with its constant bleating and claims to be the
'energy of the future' until enough people get so fucking fed up with it
they demand something that actually works. Like nuclear power...

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 22:31 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:31:31 +0100
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 17:35, D wrote:
>> Jesus christ... don't get me started! In the mainstream press people
>> _still_ write and say that 100% solar or 100% wind is the only viable way.
>> I cannot bear to read it! And when I ask how much a battery storage system
>> would cost that could store all the power for a country, for x days, there
>> is never an answer.
>>
>> Maybe, just maybe, it might be possible to have 100% solar in africa
>> somewhere, but it would still need storage capacity for the night.
>
> In Africa, the greatest need is for light at night.
>
> Followed by refrigerators, and clean water.
>
> Then comes music sound systems and the TV and mobile phones :-)
>
> Back in the day the Cuban Marxists told the township boys 'come the
> revolution, you will all have swimming pools and a Mercedes.
>
> A Zulu friend from Soweto asked me to comment.
>
> I got in touch with someone in the then apartheid government who said 'at the
> rate we are going there won't be enough water for every home to even have a
> flush toilet'
>
> 30 years later, that is the reality of South Africa. And it's 30 years of
> communist government.
>
> There is barely enough clean water to drink.
>
> The only reliable power is one nuclear power station and a lot of coal ones.
> And the educated white 'Liberals' are wanting 'renewable energy'
>
> Sure by putting thousands of Rands of batteries in your house and solar
> panels on the roof you can survive a hot African night without power, and you
> need to because the grid load sheds every day in winter.
>
> But who will pay for it? The townships are effectively powered for free by
> people attaching crocodile clips to the overheads. And it is too politically
> sensitive to actually stop them...
>
> As usual after popular revolutions the next thing is those who grab power
> fucking everything up completely in a blaze of greed, nepotism and paranoia.

And don't forget the swiss bank accounts, and the eventual retirement in
Dubai. Plenty of african and arabian dictators in the dubai old peoples
home I think. ;)

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 22:33 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:33:41 +0100
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 07/12/2024 18:24, Rich wrote:
>> Nighttime is the big one. Until the world's electric grids are
>> sufficiently interconnected that power generated in the Saraha Desert
>> at noon can be shipped to the other side of the world where it is dark
>> to supply power to that location there*must* be some storage, somehow,
>> to account for night/twilight/a run of 14+ overcast days/etc.
>>
> When I did all these calculations years ago the answer that came up every
> time was 'nuclear is simply cheaper, more reliable, more self sufficient and
> in every way better'

This is the truth! Now cut all the regulation of nuclear in half, or
remove them altogether and let the market regulate it, and it's even
cheaper, and can be built at least 50% faster if not more.

>> And, even if the world's electric grid was interconnected sufficient to
>> ship solar power from Africa to the other side of the globe, we measly
>> humans would simply use those interconnnects to try to enforce
>> geopolitical rules on other locations we don't like by attempting to
>> deny them "night time power".
>
> Or the Russians would cut the cable anyway, just for kicks.

I still think the chinese boat sits between sweden and denmark. Will be
fun to see what they find out once they get permission from china to board
the ship and interview the captain.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:04 UTC
References: 1 2 3
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!i2pn.org!i2pn2.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 00:04:07 +0100
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024, BlueManedHawk wrote:

> On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> <snip/>
>>
>> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no
>> storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
>>
>> <snip/>
>
> I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
> explored besides storage of electrical energy. One example would be a device
> that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as potential kinetic
> energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and releasing it by
> dropping the large mass. That particular one is one that i doubt will ever
> get off the ground, but the same basic principle of converting electrical
> energy to some other, more convenient-to-store form of energy is behind the
> ideas i've seen floated around.
>

There's the classic dam + pumps, and I also found this:

https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2020/03/08/cesar-seasonal-energy-storage-in-basalt/
..

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 04:17 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: 8 Dec 2024 04:17:02 GMT
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 21:10:03 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
> which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size
> of the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be
> stored...you sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power
> station that doesn't need the storage in the first place.
>
> It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.

https://www.wbur.org/news/2016/12/02/northfield-mountain-hydroelectric-
station

The company I worked for at the time also was a distributor for Trabon
lubrication systems. I didn't have much involvement in that part of the
business but I did a tag-along with the crew installing the system prior
to the station going operational. It was impressive but it was also eerie
knowing you were in a cavern under a lake. I was jealous. They had mult
plants. iple workstations with every Rigid tool known to man, all shiny
and new.

It was designed to load balance the Vermont Yankee nuclear plant. Vermont
Yankee was up for license renewal but the state opposed it. The power
company won the suit against the state but decommissioned it in 2014 since
it couldn't compete with gas fired plants.

It sounded like a good idea 50 years ago. Damn, that means I was wandering
around the plant 50 years ago. How time goes by.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 04:21 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:

> But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
> scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient storage to
> cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.

The solar companies here take another tack since pure solar isn't feasible
this far north. According to them when the sun is shining you pump
electricity into the grid, giving you credits when you're pulling from the
grid. Even then I assume their payback figures are well cooked.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 04:24 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6
Path: eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!feeder3.eternal-september.org!fu-berlin.de!uni-berlin.de!individual.net!not-for-mail
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Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
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On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:33:41 +0100, D wrote:

> I still think the chinese boat sits between sweden and denmark. Will be
> fun to see what they find out once they get permission from china to
> board the ship and interview the captain.

The part I liked is how they homed in on the Chinese ship. Satellite
photos showed it moving slower than usual -- almost like it was dragging a
giant hook behind it.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: Charlie Gibbs
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 04:52 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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From: cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
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On 2024-12-07, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it
> implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy is a chimaera that always
> needs 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.

And, unfortunately, sustainable energy is in an uphill battle with
people's obsession with "sustainable" growth. Now _there's_ a chimaera.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: Robert Riches
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: none-at-all
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 05:01 UTC
References: 1
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From: spamtrap42@jacob21819.net (Robert Riches)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: 8 Dec 2024 05:01:35 GMT
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On 2024-12-07, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> Latter 70s they were The Thing.
>
> Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
> bit-slice processors were yer fix.
>
> They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
> could physically attach them to MORE processors.
> All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
> expanded wider and wider.
>
> You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
> physically build something much stronger.
>
> I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
> cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
> clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
>
> TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
> a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
>
> Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
> the interface wiring. Really no longer a
> solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
> processor :-)
>
> Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
> solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
> links between many processors to coordinate
> things between all the chips (they could have
> a shared memory area too).
>
> Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
> were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
> have future apps.

Tektronix made a series of "desktop" computers back in the day.
The 4051 was the first in the series and used a Motorola 6800
processor. As far as I'm aware, the 4052 and 4054 made up the
rest of the series. Those had the same processor, a 6800
superset made from bit-slide chips (2900-2901-..., IIRC). IIRC,
they ran about 20MHz except when accessing an external ROM pack.
There were added opcodes for basic floating point operations.
Even with BASIC using double-precision floating point numbers for
everything numeric, they were faster at many things than
microprocessors of the day. I was told it took a 486 at
somewhere around 66MHz to equal or beat it.

--
Robert Riches
spamtrap42@jacob21819.net
(Yes, that is one of my email addresses.)

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: 186282@ud0s4.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: wokiesux
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 06:08 UTC
References: 1 2
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Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
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On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/12/2024 07:33, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> Latter 70s they were The Thing.
>>
>> Needed a 64/128 processor in an 8-bit world, then
>> bit-slice processors were yer fix.
>>
>> They were the basics of a CPU - but wired so you
>> could physically attach them to MORE processors.
>> All the necessary flags/registers/etc could be
>> expanded wider and wider.
>>
>> You could buy 2-bit, 4-bit, slice processors and
>> physically build something much stronger.
>>
>> I even remember hearing of them mentioned in some
>> cheap TV series - some geek with his own R2D2
>> clone that was WAY too capable for the era.
>>
>> TODAY ... well ... you can make a 64/128 on like
>> a 1cm die - really party on a 2cm die.
>>
>> Bit-slice now - you'd loose far too much in
>> the interface wiring. Really no longer a
>> solution - unless maybe you need a 1024/2048
>> processor  :-)
>>
>> Kinda the same goes for 'Transputers' - parallel
>> solution using ultra-speed (for the day) serial
>> links between many processors to coordinate
>> things between all the chips (they could have
>> a shared memory area too).
>>
>> Older tech limitations spawned FIXES ... there
>> were many. Some were very *clever* - might even
>> have future apps.
>>
>>
> As an engineer it always amazes me on how such little things the success
> of a technology depends.
>
> Aircraft could have been invented hundreds of years earlier if a
> lightweight power source had turned up, but steam wasn't good enough,
> and it took oil petrol or gas to make the power sources light enough.

SOME of Da-Vinci's designs WOULD have worked if they'd
had a chain-saw engine and prop. CONTROL ... well ...

> electric cars fail because the batteries simple are barely good
> enough to replace IC.

Barely ... sometimes less than that.

> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is
> no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.

Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries :-)

Some kinds of large fiber-based flywheels might
do the trick - but they'd better be buried just
in case ....

> Yet the advance of photolithography and quantum theory made the
> integrated circuit a possibility, the Cold War mandated the need for
> small light electronics for missiles, and here we are.

We get along, we make progress in various ways.

But, at least now, I don't see the "next wave" -
something like transistors or IC engines or such.
They promise 'quantum' and such, but the MEANS
work against it.

The FET was visualized in the very early 1900s by
some Russian prof. Digital processing not long
after by another Russian (some proto's survived).
The general-purpose computer was Babbage/Lovelace
in the mid 1800s. The issue was a BETTER MEANS
of realizing the CONCEPT. That took awhile.

Every time that 'better means' arrived - HUGE leaps.
Sometimes it was SMALL stuff - but provided critical
leverage.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: 186282@ud0s4.net
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: wokiesux
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 07:37 UTC
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Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
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From: 186283@ud0s4.net (186282@ud0s4.net)
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On 12/7/24 4:10 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
> On 07/12/2024 20:15, BlueManedHawk wrote:
>> On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> <snip/>
>>>
>>> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there
>>> is no storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
>>>
>>> <snip/>
>>
>> I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
>> explored besides storage of electrical energy.  One example would be a
>> device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
>> potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass
>> and releasing it by dropping the large mass.  That particular one is
>> one that i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic
>> principle of converting electrical energy to some other, more
>> convenient-to-store form of energy is behind the ideas i've seen
>> floated around.
>
>
> That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
> which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size
> of the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be
> stored...you sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power
> station that doesn't need the storage in the first place.
>
> It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.
>
> A much more reasonable solution  is the molten salt cooled nuclear
> reactor where molten salt can be stored ready for peak power delivery
> above the capability of the reactor in its steady state.
>
> The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it
> implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy  is a chimaera that always
> needs 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.
>
> We will have to put up with its constant bleating and claims to be the
> 'energy of the future' until enough people get so fucking fed up with it
> they demand something that actually works.  Like nuclear power...

In the 1st world, suitable GEOGRAPHY is a BIGGIE. Land
is EXPENSIVE ... an then the ultra-greenies will freak
about tiny bugs and plants and fish.

This limits hydro-anything. Basically if it's not already
there, you ain't gonna be allowed to do it.

Nuke, in some ways, IS easier. Hey, Iran is making LOTS
of uranium these days ... :-)

I'm a fan of "pebble bed" - but 'super hot' seems to
be more popular real-world. A mistake IMHO.

Modern flywheels - super-sized - COULD store rather a
lot of energy. However you'd need to bury them a little
Just In Case.

Lithium packs ... just WAIT for the huge fire ...

HAVE looked into what could be called "low-headwater
hydro" ... ie tapping SMALL dams or even river flows.
With modern design software efficient turbines MIGHT
be made. Envision 'farms' of raft-looking generator
platforms in the Mississippi. Low-RPM blades wouldn't
even kill fish.

Yea yea, I know the laws of thermodynamics - but if
you can dip into 'low delta' CHEAPLY enough ....

There just doesn't seem to be any 'perfect' solution
at present. Even 99.9% efficient PV cells would not
solve all the issues. For now, some sensible MIX of
technologies is the best course. Alas POLITICS tends
to squeeze the 'sensible' out of everything.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 08:15 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: 8 Dec 2024 08:15:53 GMT
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On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 02:37:56 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> HAVE looked into what could be called "low-headwater hydro" ... ie
> tapping SMALL dams or even river flows.
> With modern design software efficient turbines MIGHT be made.
> Envision 'farms' of raft-looking generator platforms in the
> Mississippi. Low-RPM blades wouldn't even kill fish.

Rafters love low-head dams. They look so innocent.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 08:18 UTC
References: 1 2 3
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From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: 8 Dec 2024 08:18:56 GMT
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On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 01:08:41 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries

I'm waiting for more accurate information but there is a rumor Musk may
pivot to hydrogen. Great, another technology with no supporting
infrastructure.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: rbowman
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 08:20 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: bowman@montana.com (rbowman)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: 8 Dec 2024 08:20:13 GMT
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On Sun, 08 Dec 2024 04:52:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> And, unfortunately, sustainable energy is in an uphill battle with
> people's obsession with "sustainable" growth. Now _there's_ a chimaera.

You can't have your Apple AI enabled laptop and eat it too.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:12 UTC
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From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:12:47 +0100
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On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 18:24:17 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> But today, no, it is not feasable today, other than on a very small
>> scale (single household) to be 100% solar and have sufficient storage to
>> cover for some amount of "sun isn't shining" days.
>
> The solar companies here take another tack since pure solar isn't feasible
> this far north. According to them when the sun is shining you pump
> electricity into the grid, giving you credits when you're pulling from the
> grid. Even then I assume their payback figures are well cooked.
>

Is the grid prepared for this working at scale? And it seems to me that
all solar would "sell" at the same time, driving down the price to zero or
even creating an excess, while all the ones in this system would need
energy at the same time (night) driving the price up, therefore again,
needing some kind of storage.

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 11:14 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
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From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:14:40 +0100
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On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 7 Dec 2024 23:33:41 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I still think the chinese boat sits between sweden and denmark. Will be
>> fun to see what they find out once they get permission from china to
>> board the ship and interview the captain.
>
> The part I liked is how they homed in on the Chinese ship. Satellite
> photos showed it moving slower than usual -- almost like it was dragging a
> giant hook behind it.
>

They had a wonderful clip on the swedish public news the other day, where
the journalist takes a small boat with a radio and goes out to the ship,
surrounded by a few navy vessels, and hails the captain. After a few
attempts, they get a chinese man on the radio who speaks exceptionally bad
english.

They explain they are from the swedish public television and would like
to interview him about the situatio, and the reply comes in the most
english/chinese voice you can imagine:

"I say nothing to you! I say nothing to you! Leave now!"

So no cooperation there at the moment. ;)

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 12:41 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4 5
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From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:41:12 +0100
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On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/7/24 4:10 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>> On 07/12/2024 20:15, BlueManedHawk wrote:
>>> On 12/7/24 9:29 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>> <snip/>
>>>>
>>>> Windmills and solar panels are useless for the same reason. - there is no
>>>> storage able to meet the intermittency problem.
>>>>
>>>> <snip/>
>>>
>>> I've heard rumors of alternative technologies for energy storage being
>>> explored besides storage of electrical energy.  One example would be a
>>> device that stores energy not as electrical energy, but instead as
>>> potential kinetic energy, storing the energy by lifting a large mass and
>>> releasing it by dropping the large mass.  That particular one is one that
>>> i doubt will ever get off the ground, but the same basic principle of
>>> converting electrical energy to some other, more convenient-to-store form
>>> of energy is behind the ideas i've seen floated around.
>>
>>
>> That is essentially the physics behind pumped (hydroelectric) storage,
>> which achieves about 75% turn round efficiency. If you consider the size of
>> the the lakes involved and the amount of energy that may be stored...you
>> sigh and realise its better to build a nuclear power station that doesn't
>> need the storage in the first place.
>>
>> It works, but without suitable geography the build cost is phenomenal.
>>
>> A much more reasonable solution  is the molten salt cooled nuclear reactor
>> where molten salt can be stored ready for peak power delivery above the
>> capability of the reactor in its steady state.
>>
>> The reality is that if anything really worked we would have seen it
>> implemented already. 'Sustainable' energy  is a chimaera that always needs
>> 'more publicly funded research' and never really delivers.
>>
>> We will have to put up with its constant bleating and claims to be the
>> 'energy of the future' until enough people get so fucking fed up with it
>> they demand something that actually works.  Like nuclear power...
>
> In the 1st world, suitable GEOGRAPHY is a BIGGIE. Land
> is EXPENSIVE ... an then the ultra-greenies will freak
> about tiny bugs and plants and fish.
>
> This limits hydro-anything. Basically if it's not already
> there, you ain't gonna be allowed to do it.
>
> Nuke, in some ways, IS easier. Hey, Iran is making LOTS
> of uranium these days ... :-)
>
> I'm a fan of "pebble bed" - but 'super hot' seems to
> be more popular real-world. A mistake IMHO.
>
> Modern flywheels - super-sized - COULD store rather a
> lot of energy. However you'd need to bury them a little
> Just In Case.
>
> Lithium packs ... just WAIT for the huge fire ...
>
> HAVE looked into what could be called "low-headwater
> hydro" ... ie tapping SMALL dams or even river flows.
> With modern design software efficient turbines MIGHT
> be made. Envision 'farms' of raft-looking generator
> platforms in the Mississippi. Low-RPM blades wouldn't
> even kill fish.
>
> Yea yea, I know the laws of thermodynamics - but if
> you can dip into 'low delta' CHEAPLY enough ....
>
> There just doesn't seem to be any 'perfect' solution
> at present. Even 99.9% efficient PV cells would not
> solve all the issues. For now, some sensible MIX of
> technologies is the best course. Alas POLITICS tends
> to squeeze the 'sensible' out of everything.

Sounds like you have the perfect business idea right there! Given all the
eco-fascism in the world, go on a fund raising tour to europe and they
will literally throw money at you!

And the best thing of all... it doesn't even have to work! ;)

Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
From: D
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 13:58 UTC
References: 1 2 3 4
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From: nospam@example.net (D)
Newsgroups: comp.os.linux.misc
Subject: Re: Remember "Bit-Slice" Chips ?
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2024 14:58:38 +0100
Organization: i2pn2 (i2pn.org)
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On Sun, 8 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 8 Dec 2024 01:08:41 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Well, Musk sells gigantic lithium batteries
>
> I'm waiting for more accurate information but there is a rumor Musk may
> pivot to hydrogen. Great, another technology with no supporting
> infrastructure.
>

Wow, Toyota would celebrate! I think they are still clinging to hydrogen.

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