On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:16 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 29/10/2024 15:18, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>
>>> Which attempts fundmentally can be attributed to modern capitalist
>>> theory that requires constant growth. Without new consumers,
>>> how can the economy expand?
>>>
>>> Is it time for a steady-state economy?
>>
>> The problem is that most modern economies have a social care and debt
>> Ponzi scheme, that relies on more people earning more money to pay for
>> it.
>>
>> Stop the new people and the scheme collapses.
>
> Don't stop the new people and the scheme collapes a bit later due to
> resource exhaustion. It's no different from any other Ponzi scheme.
>
>>> https://steadystate.org/discover/definition-of-steady-state-economy/
>>
>> Well it will have to come eventually, but the transition will be
>> painful
>
> Perhaps - but it might be less painful than a Malthusian crash.

I can never remember if high time preference or low time preference is the
one that thinks '$100 today is better than a tomorrow that may never come'
but it does seem to be the dominant philosophy.

The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix. Someday
they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and find out
there ain't no more rabbits.

On 29/10/2024 20:00, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the link. I've believed for some time that we need to
>> transition to a steady-state economy; I'm glad to see that there are
>> others who agree.
>
> Capitalism shares some attributes with cancer. I have no idea how it could
> be toned down or replaced though. Schumacher's 'Small Is Beautiful' was
> interesting but had no effect.
This isn't capitalism. This is debt economy.

NOTHING to do with capital but a LOT to do with socialism.

Borrow money, buy votes, tax the next generation as you pay it back to
the previous.
It is the end of debt financed post war consumer economics.

--
All political activity makes complete sense once the proposition that
all government is basically a self-legalising protection racket, is
fully understood.

On 29/10/2024 20:05, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:16 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-29, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On 29/10/2024 15:18, Scott Lurndal wrote:
>>>
>>>> Which attempts fundmentally can be attributed to modern capitalist
>>>> theory that requires constant growth. Without new consumers,
>>>> how can the economy expand?
>>>>
>>>> Is it time for a steady-state economy?
>>>
>>> The problem is that most modern economies have a social care and debt
>>> Ponzi scheme, that relies on more people earning more money to pay for
>>> it.
>>>
>>> Stop the new people and the scheme collapses.
>>
>> Don't stop the new people and the scheme collapes a bit later due to
>> resource exhaustion. It's no different from any other Ponzi scheme.
>>
>>>> https://steadystate.org/discover/definition-of-steady-state-economy/
>>>
>>> Well it will have to come eventually, but the transition will be
>>> painful
>>
>> Perhaps - but it might be less painful than a Malthusian crash.
>
> I can never remember if high time preference or low time preference is the
> one that thinks '$100 today is better than a tomorrow that may never come'
> but it does seem to be the dominant philosophy.
>
> The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix. Someday
> they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and find out
> there ain't no more rabbits.

Well in this case there could be.

It may turn out that everybody owes everybody else more money than they
can ever pay back, and galloping inflation devalues all savings and all
debts to manageable amounts.

OR Big Money takes a massive 95% haircut, globally, on a preassigned day.

Or the economic system collapses and governments simply stop paying
civil servants, public sector workers and pensioners anything at all.
along with people on social security.

--
Civilization exists by geological consent, subject to change without notice.
– Will Durant

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the link. I've believed for some time that we need to
>> transition to a steady-state economy; I'm glad to see that there are
>> others who agree.
>
> Capitalism shares some attributes with cancer. I have no idea how it could
> be toned down or replaced though. Schumacher's 'Small Is Beautiful' was
> interesting but had no effect.
>

Many centuries left. We'll mine the ocean floors, we'll reach for the
stars (or at least asteroids). Eventually we'll expand beyond the earth.
The people predicting crashes and famines have been wrong every time,
except for when alternatives to capitalism has been tried. Then there have
been real famines.

On 2024-10-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix. Someday
> they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and find out
> there ain't no more rabbits.

"Cornucopians" - love it. That's a keeper.

As I once heard on a program on the topic, "Science can't make the
sun shine brighter or the rivers run faster."

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 22:22:00 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> As I once heard on a program on the topic, "Science can't make the sun
> shine brighter or the rivers run faster."

Think of artificial night-time lighting running off stored solar power
gathered in the day-time: it does better than making the sun shine
brighter, doesn’t it? It makes it shine when it wouldn’t shine at all.

Further: When you dam up a river, the outflow runs faster.

Moral: beware of folksy, misleading epithets from the anti-scientists.

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> So how it has to embrace Linux. And interestingly, the “extend” part of
>> its strategy is being applied, not to Linux, but to Windows, to try to
>> make it more Linux like.
>>
>> So guess what, if anything, is going to get “extinguished”?
>
> :-) Nice fantasy, though.

Microsoft released its “AI Workstation” development platform for Windows.
And guess what: WSL2 is a requirement.

Can you say “slippery slope” ... ?

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 21:43:13 +0100, D wrote:

> Many centuries left. We'll mine the ocean floors, we'll reach for the
> stars (or at least asteroids). Eventually we'll expand beyond the earth.
> The people predicting crashes and famines have been wrong every time,
> except for when alternatives to capitalism has been tried. Then there
> have been real famines.

I worked summers for the NYS Dept. of Education and the basement corridors
were filled with pallets of newspapers. (and 5 gallon buckets of water,
reusable as toilets after the Ruskies attacked) I don't know if they were
waiting to be microfilmed or stacked and forgotten.

I mostly read the funnies and old ads but I found a trove of 1929
editions. "The fundamentals are sound!" as they took the express route
down from the 30th floor.

I love a good science fiction yarn but I realize the space travel genre is
mostly fiction. The dystopian worlds run by AI probably aren't.

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 20:12:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Or the economic system collapses and governments simply stop paying
> civil servants, public sector workers and pensioners anything at all.
> along with people on social security.

The retirees on SS would be a bit upset. Many of them in the US have more
guns than teeth.

On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 22:22:00 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix.
>> Someday they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and
>> find out there ain't no more rabbits.
>
> "Cornucopians" - love it. That's a keeper.
>
> As I once heard on a program on the topic, "Science can't make the sun
> shine brighter or the rivers run faster."

The term has been around for a long time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornucopianism

Henry George had some interesting ideas but he went off the rails on that
one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon%E2%80%93Ehrlich_wager

Simon won for that specific decade and was wise to take a pass on the
second one proposed.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 00:14:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-10-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> So how it has to embrace Linux. And interestingly, the “extend” part
>>> of its strategy is being applied, not to Linux, but to Windows, to try
>>> to make it more Linux like.
>>>
>>> So guess what, if anything, is going to get “extinguished”?
>>
>> :-) Nice fantasy, though.
>
> Microsoft released its “AI Workstation” development platform for
> Windows.
> And guess what: WSL2 is a requirement.
>
> Can you say “slippery slope” ... ?

Supposedly you can make Docker Desktop work without WSL but I don't think
it's very happy.

On 10/29/24 12:56 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 05:18:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> Today it's evolved into the doctrine of "embrace, extend, extinguish".
>
> Microsoft has met its match with Linux, though. It tried “extinguish”
> first (remember “Linux is a cancer”? Or the infamous “Get The Facts”
> campaign?), threw everything in its arsenal (both legal and not so legal)
> at it, and failed miserably.
>
> So how it has to embrace Linux. And interestingly, the “extend” part of
> its strategy is being applied, not to Linux, but to Windows, to try to
> make it more Linux like.
>
> So guess what, if anything, is going to get “extinguished”?

Winders WILL persist ... but, kinda like iOS, will
be some kind of Unix under the GUI. However they
won't really TELL anyone .......

The "look & feel" and some degree of backwards
compatibility is required. Then they can still
claim it's Winders. The backwards compatibility
may even be achieved, sneakily, using emulators -
either outright or as spawned VMs.

Winders, as IS, is a Gordian knot ... a total
MESS. Nobody knows why/how anything works or
how it interacts with other stuff except by
gross trial and error. It's unsustainable -
way too big for its britches.

Hurry hurry, don't be late, buy yer Win NT2
at the great new introductory price ! :-)

On 10/28/24 1:09 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 00:58:34 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Long back I did extensive development on a PICK-OS based DB called
>> 'Revelation'. It DID do an early version of SQL. It was used for over
>> a decade.
>>
>> HOWEVER you never used the SQL beyond the top-level selections
>> because it was too slow.
>
> Pick wasn’t even a relational database.

Nope. Entirely different philosophy.

I liked it.

All hail multi-value :-)

Put together a little library - 'C' and Pascal and
to a degree even Python - over the years with functions
that do some of the same stuff on data strings you may
find in PICK. Tend to import it, often. Useful.

Hey, even made an abridged version for Ada !

Waste of effort alas ....

> Back then, it was quite common to support open standards like SQL with
> “malicious compliance” -- deliberately make them look worse than your
> proprietary interface, to “persuade” your users to lock themselves in to
> your product.

Wasn't 'malicious' ... it's just that PICK was never
really MADE for SQL or its style of finding/sorting stuff.
SQL was an "add-on".

However the initial level selects, they DID save a lot
of time/effort. After that however .....

Anyway, search on "Advanced Revelation". It's still sold.
DOS alas. The 'OpenInsight' follow-on product is VASTLY
more expensive, albeit still MV.

On 10/28/24 1:18 AM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-10-28, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 28 Oct 2024 00:58:34 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Long back I did extensive development on a PICK-OS based DB called
>>> 'Revelation'. It DID do an early version of SQL. It was used for over
>>> a decade.
>>>
>>> HOWEVER you never used the SQL beyond the top-level selections
>>> because it was too slow.
>>
>> Pick wasn’t even a relational database.
>>
>> Back then, it was quite common to support open standards like SQL with
>> “malicious compliance” -- deliberately make them look worse than your
>> proprietary interface, to “persuade” your users to lock themselves in to
>> your product.
>
> Not just back then. Today it's evolved into the doctrine of
> "embrace, extend, extinguish".

SQL and flat-file DBs are kind of the all-gobbling
monsters.

But MV is still the better, saner, way to organize many
kinds of data.

On 10/29/24 9:24 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2024 00:14:28 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 18:35:15 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-10-29, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> So how it has to embrace Linux. And interestingly, the “extend” part
>>>> of its strategy is being applied, not to Linux, but to Windows, to try
>>>> to make it more Linux like.
>>>>
>>>> So guess what, if anything, is going to get “extinguished”?
>>>
>>> :-) Nice fantasy, though.
>>
>> Microsoft released its “AI Workstation” development platform for
>> Windows.
>> And guess what: WSL2 is a requirement.
>>
>> Can you say “slippery slope” ... ?
>
> Supposedly you can make Docker Desktop work without WSL but I don't think
> it's very happy.

Step by step by step, M$ is encouraging standards/approaches
that REQUIRE it's own methods/systems/software. It's a cancer.
Biz idiots don't even remotely recognize the trap - and don't
and won't listen to actual programmers/system-guys.

Hey, the fellow-idiots at The Meeting say EVERYBODY is doing
it - so WE have to do it too or we'll get 'criticism' !!!

One of the reasons I retired .....

On 29/10/2024 20:43, D wrote:
> The people predicting crashes and famines have been wrong every time

Indeed. That's why the Mayan Empire, the Aztec Empire, The Roman Empire,
the Mongol Empire, and the Islamic caliphate, along with the Ming
dynasty are still with us and the Bronze Age collapse simply never
happened.

Those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 29/10/2024 22:22, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-10-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix. Someday
>> they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and find out
>> there ain't no more rabbits.
>
> "Cornucopians" - love it. That's a keeper.
>
It's a well known term for a clearly defined set of people who - lacking
any STEM knowledge themselves - confidently predict that technology will
save them, resources will never run out and the only limit is human
imagination.

They are similar to the Greens in their adherence to faith based
arguments based on no facts whatsoever.

They tend to be American, because the USA is probably the richest nation
in terms of natural resources per capita. And because it has no history
at all, is inclined to disbelieve its lessons

Here in Europe we have lived through many a resource limited collapse.

> As I once heard on a program on the topic, "Science can't make the
> sun shine brighter or the rivers run faster."
>

Or Confucius : ¨Nature does not forgo the winter because men dislike the
cold"

--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

On 30/10/2024 00:17, rbowman wrote:
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 20:12:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Or the economic system collapses and governments simply stop paying
>> civil servants, public sector workers and pensioners anything at all.
>> along with people on social security.
>
> The retirees on SS would be a bit upset. Many of them in the US have more
> guns than teeth.

Guns don't create any wealth. At best they could simply limit survival
to people with guns who ate all the rest

--
Climate is what you expect but weather is what you get.
Mark Twain

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 21:43:13 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Many centuries left. We'll mine the ocean floors, we'll reach for the
>> stars (or at least asteroids). Eventually we'll expand beyond the earth.
>> The people predicting crashes and famines have been wrong every time,
>> except for when alternatives to capitalism has been tried. Then there
>> have been real famines.
>
> I worked summers for the NYS Dept. of Education and the basement corridors
> were filled with pallets of newspapers. (and 5 gallon buckets of water,
> reusable as toilets after the Ruskies attacked) I don't know if they were
> waiting to be microfilmed or stacked and forgotten.
>
> I mostly read the funnies and old ads but I found a trove of 1929
> editions. "The fundamentals are sound!" as they took the express route
> down from the 30th floor.
>
> I love a good science fiction yarn but I realize the space travel genre is
> mostly fiction. The dystopian worlds run by AI probably aren't.

Well, it is future, so by design fuzzy around the edges. But looking at
the history of the planet, and the fact that despite being capable of
destroying our planet several times over, we've managed not to do so (with
all the crazy people in power) gives me enormous hope. Yes, I'm an
optimist!

On 30 Oct 2024 00:17:17 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

>On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 20:12:24 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Or the economic system collapses and governments simply stop paying
>> civil servants, public sector workers and pensioners anything at all.
>> along with people on social security.
>
>The retirees on SS would be a bit upset. Many of them in the US have more
>guns than teeth.

You mean they could sell their guns? Good idea, but who would
want to buy them?
[]'s
--
Don't be evil - Google 2004
We have a new policy - Google 2012
Google Fuchsia - 2021

On 30/10/2024 09:59, D wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 21:43:13 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> Many centuries left. We'll mine the ocean floors, we'll reach for the
>>> stars (or at least asteroids). Eventually we'll expand beyond the earth.
>>> The people predicting crashes and famines have been wrong every time,
>>> except for when alternatives to capitalism has been tried. Then there
>>> have been real famines.
>>
>> I worked summers for the NYS Dept. of Education and the basement
>> corridors
>> were filled with pallets of newspapers. (and 5 gallon buckets of water,
>> reusable as toilets after the Ruskies attacked) I don't know if they were
>> waiting to be microfilmed or stacked and forgotten.
>>
>> I mostly read the funnies and old ads but I found a trove of 1929
>> editions. "The fundamentals are sound!" as they took the express route
>> down from the 30th floor.
>>
>> I love a good science fiction yarn but I realize the space travel
>> genre is
>> mostly fiction. The dystopian worlds run by AI probably aren't.
>
> Well, it is future, so by design fuzzy around the edges. But looking at
> the history of the planet, and the fact that despite being capable of
> destroying our planet several times over, we've managed not to do so
> (with all the crazy people in power) gives me enormous hope. Yes, I'm an
> optimist!

Oh we wont destroy the planet. Just our own civilization
Read Joseph Tainter.

He lays it all oy very plainly. A society finds a better way to exploit
nature. It grows, and extends, as it does so it needs rules and
regulations laws taxes and competent bureaucrats. Then its resource base
starts to get strained, and it needs even more complexity and
bureaucracy to keep it going.
Eventually the quality of people needed to keep it going also runs out.
And it collapses into autonomous fragments.

--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 29/10/2024 20:43, D wrote:
>> The people predicting crashes and famines have been wrong every time
>
> Indeed. That's why the Mayan Empire, the Aztec Empire, The Roman Empire, the
> Mongol Empire, and the Islamic caliphate, along with the Ming dynasty are
> still with us and the Bronze Age collapse simply never happened.

Oh but they are. Today they are called mexicans, italians, greek,
arabians etc. and from a material and quality of life point of view,
they've never had it better.

> Those that fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.

This seems to be the truth.

On Wed, 30 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 29/10/2024 22:22, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2024-10-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix. Someday
>>> they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and find out
>>> there ain't no more rabbits.
>>
>> "Cornucopians" - love it. That's a keeper.
>>
> It's a well known term for a clearly defined set of people who - lacking any
> STEM knowledge themselves - confidently predict that technology will save
> them, resources will never run out and the only limit is human imagination.
>
> They are similar to the Greens in their adherence to faith based arguments
> based on no facts whatsoever.
>
> They tend to be American, because the USA is probably the richest nation in
> terms of natural resources per capita. And because it has no history at all,
> is inclined to disbelieve its lessons
>
> Here in Europe we have lived through many a resource limited collapse.

Yet here we are, having it better than we ever had historically.

On the other hand, the eternal negative can take refuge in the fact that
the universe will die the heat death, so from that point of view, why
bother with anything at all? ;)

On 30/10/2024 11:44, D wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 29/10/2024 22:22, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>> On 2024-10-29, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> The cornucopians think there will always be a technological fix.
>>>> Someday
>>>> they will reach into the hat to pull out the next rabbit and find out
>>>> there ain't no more rabbits.
>>>
>>> "Cornucopians" - love it.  That's a keeper.
>>>
>> It's a well known term for a clearly defined set of people who -
>> lacking any STEM knowledge themselves - confidently predict that
>> technology will save them, resources will never run out and the only
>> limit is human imagination.
>>
>> They are similar to the Greens in their adherence to faith based
>> arguments based on no facts whatsoever.
>>
>> They tend to be American, because the USA is probably the richest
>> nation in terms of natural resources per capita.  And because it has
>> no history at all, is inclined to disbelieve its lessons
>>
>> Here in Europe we have lived through many a resource limited collapse.
>
> Yet here we are, having it better than we ever had historically.
>
No. Frankly we are not.
Life in the 1960s was a lot more fun.

> On the other hand, the eternal negative can take refuge in the fact that
> the universe will die the heat death, so from that point of view, why
> bother with anything at all? ;)
>

Indeed. Because its fun basically,

Enjoy surfing that entropy wave., It wont last forever

--
"First, find out who are the people you can not criticise. They are your
oppressors."
- George Orwell

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> writes:
>On Tue, 29 Oct 2024 22:22:00 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> As I once heard on a program on the topic, "Science can't make the sun
>> shine brighter or the rivers run faster."
>
>Think of artificial night-time lighting running off stored solar power
>gathered in the day-time: it does better than making the sun shine
>brighter, doesn’t it? It makes it shine when it wouldn’t shine at all.
>
>Further: When you dam up a river, the outflow runs faster.
>
>Moral: beware of folksy, misleading epithets from the anti-scientists.

Moral: Beware of pointless pedantry.