On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

> On 10/11/2024 04:53, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>>> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>>>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>>>> But RedHat, and its lackey Poettering,
>>>>>
>>>>> You should note that the lackey Poettering is now employed by his
>>>>> original handler when he was employed by RedHat: Microsoft.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering
>>>>>
>>>>>   Lennart Poettering (born 15 October 1980) is a German software
>>>>>   engineer working for Microsoft ...
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft is putting an awful lot of money into Linux. I consider that
>>>> a good thing.
>>>
>>> I would prefer a free OS funded by lots of organisations putting a
>>> little money in, rather than relying on a few companies that invest
>>> a lot and whose individual opinions therefore matter. But beggers
>>> can't be choosers (although I can still choose old versions of
>>> Linux, like I'm using now, for some things).
>>>
>>
>> Microsoft funding something they don't own, usually boils down to:
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish .
>
> I bothers me how many Linux users want these large corps money in the game.
> It's dangerous in my opinion because these companies don't have their users
> best interests at heart at all. And for Microsoft it's all EEE anyways so
> Microsoft's Money in Linux is very bad news. (yes, pun intended for those who
> got it).

I agree completely. That's why linux is becoming less good and more
political. I've had dealings with the linux foundation, and it was all
corporate CV stuffing and corporate bullsh*t.

But, another factor I think, is the age and size of the project. It is
ossifying. Innovation is slowing down.

I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or if
there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate something new,
that will take off with lightning speed?

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

> On 10/10/2024 18:13, rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 16:10:04 -0400, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>
>>
>>>> Replacing Ballmer with Nadella seems to have had quite an impact. Often
>>>> replacing a CEO is 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'd disagree. I think Nadella is more like Gates then Ballmer. When was
>>> the last time you saw Nadella run on the stage chanting and raving like
>>> Ballmer did? :-P
>>
>> I think we agree but I phrased my remark badly. Nadella is like having an
>> adult running the company. I'm impressed that he managed to turn the
>> corporate culture around. Many times the 'new broom' has little effect.
>>
>> I don't know how much of that is from Nadella's personal background.
>> Indian business leaders seem to have a more collaborative, longer term
>> outlook than happens in the US. Ratan Tata was a good example.
>>
>> I'm skeptical about their AI efforts but at this point I think it's
>> something they have to do to stay in the game. I do hope the ARM
>> experiment works out better than the previous attempt.
>
> You opened the door for the relatedness so I had to take it. But yes, from a
> company corporate perspective I'd agree. But I don't trust Microsoft at all
> regardless because to me it's all about stealing our data and spying on us
> with what we do. And Nadella will do what makes the company money. So if they
> have to screw over their customers to make it so be it. "everyone" (using
> that loosely) uses Windows so they can do a lot of things to their customers
> and get away with it because they know their customers can't get away from
> Windows and Microsoft products. So unfortunately the company's output itself
> hasn't changed much.
>

That reminds me... today some license term changes from linkedin landed in
my inbox, and apparently all your thoughts, texts and data will now be
used for linkedin business development, and I assume, AI training.

But don't worry... linkedin (Microsoft) has _proactively_ added an
_opt-out_ button, because obviously adding an opt-in would be way too
reactive. ;)

Fortunately at least this practice is illegal in the EU, so there they
cannot do this.

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 22:55:37 +0200, D wrote:

> I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or if
> there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate something new,
> that will take off with lightning speed?

https://thenewstack.io/open-source-needs-younger-maintainers-how-can-it-
get-them/

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next big bang for operating
systems. For that matter Linux and *BSD have been more like a 50 year slow
burn than any sort of bang if you consider Unix to be the progenitor.

On 10/12/2024 16:57, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>> On 10/10/2024 18:13, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 16:10:04 -0400, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>> Replacing Ballmer with Nadella seems to have had quite an impact.
>>>>> Often
>>>>> replacing a CEO is 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'd disagree. I think Nadella is more like Gates then Ballmer. When was
>>>> the last time you saw Nadella run on the stage chanting and raving like
>>>> Ballmer did? :-P
>>>
>>> I think we agree but I phrased my remark badly. Nadella is like
>>> having an
>>> adult running the company. I'm impressed that he managed to turn the
>>> corporate culture around. Many times the 'new broom' has little effect.
>>>
>>> I don't know how much of that is from Nadella's personal background.
>>> Indian business leaders seem to have a more collaborative, longer term
>>> outlook than happens in the US. Ratan Tata was a good example.
>>>
>>> I'm skeptical about their AI efforts but at this point I think it's
>>> something they have to do to stay in the game. I do hope the ARM
>>> experiment works out better than the previous attempt.
>>
>> You opened the door for the relatedness so I had to take it. But yes,
>> from a company corporate perspective I'd agree. But I don't trust
>> Microsoft at all regardless because to me it's all about stealing our
>> data and spying on us with what we do. And Nadella will do what makes
>> the company money. So if they have to screw over their customers to
>> make it so be it. "everyone" (using that loosely) uses Windows so they
>> can do a lot of things to their customers and get away with it because
>> they know their customers can't get away from Windows and Microsoft
>> products. So unfortunately the company's output itself hasn't changed
>> much.
>>
>
> That reminds me... today some license term changes from linkedin landed
> in my inbox, and apparently all your thoughts, texts and data will now
> be used for linkedin business development, and I assume, AI training.
>
> But don't worry... linkedin (Microsoft) has _proactively_ added an _opt-
> out_ button, because obviously adding an opt-in would be way too
> reactive. ;)
>
> Fortunately at least this practice is illegal in the EU, so there they
> cannot do this.

Heh, and opt-out button... This will probably come off conspiratorial
but... I wouldn't trust that the opt-out button would actually opt you
out of anything. Since you will never be able to see exactly what
Microsoft puts into the training set, you'd have no way to prove or
validate that it actually opted you out.

I don't mean any disrespect in this next part, but it's just my
thoughts. Yes, EU has laws about it, but here's the thing, first, EU
would have to prove Microsoft was violating the law, (which Microsoft
can easily cover up if they wanted to) and second, with a company as
powerful and profitable as Microsoft is, the fines the EU would impose
would be a speeding ticket to Microsoft at the end of the day. And if
Microsoft threatened the EU to pull it's products from the EU, the EU
would likely back down because, (and you can tell me if I'm wrong here)
the EU is probably runs Microsoft software in most of it's
infrastructures, and likely their government as well. It would cost the
EU a ton of money and resources to move away from Microsoft if that were
to happen and it's more likely the EU would just back away instead of
switching to GNU/Linux or something else due to that cost of deployment,
training, resources, etc. It's not like Facebook or X where it would not
cause a major disruption like Microsoft would. Microsoft tends to be
foundational. Facebook and X is just a consumer service in the grand
scheme of things.

(I am making certain assumptions about the EU and Microsoft software. If
I'm wrong, then fair enough. But in the US most of our infrastructure
and government need Windows to function so I just assume the EU is
similar in that regard).

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On 10/12/2024 16:55, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>> On 10/11/2024 04:53, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>
>>>> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>>>>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>>>>> But RedHat, and its lackey Poettering,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You should note that the lackey Poettering is now employed by his
>>>>>> original handler when he was employed by RedHat: Microsoft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Lennart Poettering (born 15 October 1980) is a German software
>>>>>>   engineer working for Microsoft ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft is putting an awful lot of money into Linux. I consider that
>>>>> a good thing.
>>>>
>>>> I would prefer a free OS funded by lots of organisations putting a
>>>> little money in, rather than relying on a few companies that invest
>>>> a lot and whose individual opinions therefore matter. But beggers
>>>> can't be choosers (although I can still choose old versions of
>>>> Linux, like I'm using now, for some things).
>>>>
>>>
>>> Microsoft funding something they don't own, usually boils down to:
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish .
>>
>> I bothers me how many Linux users want these large corps money in the
>> game. It's dangerous in my opinion because these companies don't have
>> their users best interests at heart at all. And for Microsoft it's all
>> EEE anyways so Microsoft's Money in Linux is very bad news. (yes, pun
>> intended for those who got it).
>
> I agree completely. That's why linux is becoming less good and more
> political. I've had dealings with the linux foundation, and it was all
> corporate CV stuffing and corporate bullsh*t.
>
> But, another factor I think, is the age and size of the project. It is
> ossifying. Innovation is slowing down.
>
> I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or if
> there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate something new,
> that will take off with lightning speed?

Forgive me, I'm going to make the assumption that when you say Linux,
you are referring to GNU/Linux (Linux just being the kernel).

I think the innovation is slowing down because GNU/Linux has finally
caught up to where other operating systems are today. The same could be
said about Windows or MacOS. They really aren't innovating with any
speed either. My biggest thing is that I hope with us at a point now
where we have technological parity with the other OSes, we can start to
see projects finish the 'last mile' of development. Most of the
FOSS/OSS/Freedom Software out there is 80% and they just stop developing
as "good enough". Which it is, but that extra 20% polish would really
create a top notch system that can truly rival and even overthrow the
other operating systems. We should try to shift our focus on building
the software to 100% but finishing that polish needed for most packages
out there.

(If you were referring to only the Linux kernel my statement still
applies, just leave the GNU bits of my statement out of it).

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 22:55:37 +0200, D wrote:
>
>> I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or if
>> there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate something new,
>> that will take off with lightning speed?
>
> https://thenewstack.io/open-source-needs-younger-maintainers-how-can-it-
> get-them/
>
> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next big bang for operating
> systems. For that matter Linux and *BSD have been more like a 50 year slow
> burn than any sort of bang if you consider Unix to be the progenitor.
>

I would argue linux was a big bang. As for open source maintainers, this
is good! There is of course no responsibility, and I think perhaps
companies will learn what they are basing their products on, in case a
maintainer disappears.

If there's a need, a way will be found.

But looking at the developers I meet today, the vast majority are
javascript and python ninjas.

The ones I know who do C, rust and are generally brilliant are:

1. Few.
2. Older.

I agree that if that is part of a trend, many open source projects will
slowly die over the years, and as you say, the chance of a new OS from
scratch is perhaps also lower.

But there is this Ladybug browser, with the associated OS, can that be
something?

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

> On 10/12/2024 16:57, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/10/2024 18:13, rbowman wrote:
>>>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 16:10:04 -0400, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> Replacing Ballmer with Nadella seems to have had quite an impact. Often
>>>>>> replacing a CEO is 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'd disagree. I think Nadella is more like Gates then Ballmer. When was
>>>>> the last time you saw Nadella run on the stage chanting and raving like
>>>>> Ballmer did? :-P
>>>>
>>>> I think we agree but I phrased my remark badly. Nadella is like having an
>>>> adult running the company. I'm impressed that he managed to turn the
>>>> corporate culture around. Many times the 'new broom' has little effect.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know how much of that is from Nadella's personal background.
>>>> Indian business leaders seem to have a more collaborative, longer term
>>>> outlook than happens in the US. Ratan Tata was a good example.
>>>>
>>>> I'm skeptical about their AI efforts but at this point I think it's
>>>> something they have to do to stay in the game. I do hope the ARM
>>>> experiment works out better than the previous attempt.
>>>
>>> You opened the door for the relatedness so I had to take it. But yes, from
>>> a company corporate perspective I'd agree. But I don't trust Microsoft at
>>> all regardless because to me it's all about stealing our data and spying
>>> on us with what we do. And Nadella will do what makes the company money.
>>> So if they have to screw over their customers to make it so be it.
>>> "everyone" (using that loosely) uses Windows so they can do a lot of
>>> things to their customers and get away with it because they know their
>>> customers can't get away from Windows and Microsoft products. So
>>> unfortunately the company's output itself hasn't changed much.
>>>
>>
>> That reminds me... today some license term changes from linkedin landed in
>> my inbox, and apparently all your thoughts, texts and data will now be used
>> for linkedin business development, and I assume, AI training.
>>
>> But don't worry... linkedin (Microsoft) has _proactively_ added an _opt-
>> out_ button, because obviously adding an opt-in would be way too reactive.
>> ;)
>>
>> Fortunately at least this practice is illegal in the EU, so there they
>> cannot do this.
>
> Heh, and opt-out button... This will probably come off conspiratorial but...
> I wouldn't trust that the opt-out button would actually opt you out of
> anything. Since you will never be able to see exactly what Microsoft puts
> into the training set, you'd have no way to prove or validate that it
> actually opted you out.
>
> I don't mean any disrespect in this next part, but it's just my thoughts.
> Yes, EU has laws about it, but here's the thing, first, EU would have to
> prove Microsoft was violating the law, (which Microsoft can easily cover up
> if they wanted to) and second, with a company as powerful and profitable as
> Microsoft is, the fines the EU would impose would be a speeding ticket to
> Microsoft at the end of the day. And if Microsoft threatened the EU to pull
> it's products from the EU, the EU would likely back down because, (and you
> can tell me if I'm wrong here) the EU is probably runs Microsoft software in
> most of it's infrastructures, and likely their government as well. It would
> cost the EU a ton of money and resources to move away from Microsoft if that
> were to happen and it's more likely the EU would just back away instead of
> switching to GNU/Linux or something else due to that cost of deployment,
> training, resources, etc. It's not like Facebook or X where it would not
> cause a major disruption like Microsoft would. Microsoft tends to be
> foundational. Facebook and X is just a consumer service in the grand scheme
> of things.
>
> (I am making certain assumptions about the EU and Microsoft software. If I'm
> wrong, then fair enough. But in the US most of our infrastructure and
> government need Windows to function so I just assume the EU is similar in
> that regard).
>

You could be right, but the speeding ticket issue I think has partly been
addressed. The fines for breaking the law is 4%-10% of global revenue.
That is not speeding ticket level fines.

In terms of how much MS there is in the infra, you are 100% right. There
are small initiatives here and there, for instance, München switched to
libreoffice, but usually what happens, is that Microsoft bribes the
politicians with promises of an R&D center employing X 100 or 1000 people
if they change back, and of course they do, since they are politicians and
not open source enthusiasts.

Finally, in terms of proof, it is very common in the EU to be guilty until
proven innocent. But don't underestimate whistle blowers who can leak
information. I would imagine that the possibility of getting monetary
rewards for leaks either exists already, or will be implemented, and that
would also help motivating people to leak information about their
employers breaking the law.

There is of course a down side to all of this, and that is that the EU is
regulating it's tech sector out of existence, so all skilled
technologists, in time, will become employed by non-EU companies, since
there will be no point in starting a tech company in europe, only to be at
risk of high fines for the slightest mistake.

In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from the
rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There will of
course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all innovation will
leave the EU if its current socialist and pro-regulation agenda continues
for long.

On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

> On 10/12/2024 16:55, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>
>>> On 10/11/2024 04:53, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>>>>>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>>>>>> But RedHat, and its lackey Poettering,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You should note that the lackey Poettering is now employed by his
>>>>>>> original handler when he was employed by RedHat: Microsoft.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>   Lennart Poettering (born 15 October 1980) is a German software
>>>>>>>   engineer working for Microsoft ...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Microsoft is putting an awful lot of money into Linux. I consider that
>>>>>> a good thing.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would prefer a free OS funded by lots of organisations putting a
>>>>> little money in, rather than relying on a few companies that invest
>>>>> a lot and whose individual opinions therefore matter. But beggers
>>>>> can't be choosers (although I can still choose old versions of
>>>>> Linux, like I'm using now, for some things).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft funding something they don't own, usually boils down to:
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish .
>>>
>>> I bothers me how many Linux users want these large corps money in the
>>> game. It's dangerous in my opinion because these companies don't have
>>> their users best interests at heart at all. And for Microsoft it's all EEE
>>> anyways so Microsoft's Money in Linux is very bad news. (yes, pun intended
>>> for those who got it).
>>
>> I agree completely. That's why linux is becoming less good and more
>> political. I've had dealings with the linux foundation, and it was all
>> corporate CV stuffing and corporate bullsh*t.
>>
>> But, another factor I think, is the age and size of the project. It is
>> ossifying. Innovation is slowing down.
>>
>> I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or if
>> there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate something new,
>> that will take off with lightning speed?
>
> Forgive me, I'm going to make the assumption that when you say Linux, you are
> referring to GNU/Linux (Linux just being the kernel).
>
> I think the innovation is slowing down because GNU/Linux has finally caught
> up to where other operating systems are today. The same could be said about
> Windows or MacOS. They really aren't innovating with any speed either. My
> biggest thing is that I hope with us at a point now where we have
> technological parity with the other OSes, we can start to see projects finish
> the 'last mile' of development. Most of the FOSS/OSS/Freedom Software out
> there is 80% and they just stop developing as "good enough". Which it is, but
> that extra 20% polish would really create a top notch system that can truly
> rival and even overthrow the other operating systems. We should try to shift
> our focus on building the software to 100% but finishing that polish needed
> for most packages out there.
>
> (If you were referring to only the Linux kernel my statement still applies,
> just leave the GNU bits of my statement out of it).
>

That's a good point. Maybe the OS-level is so mature, that not much
remains to be added.

In terms of desktop, my retired father has happily used linux for 10+
years so I'd argue that given an honest look, the linux desktop is
actually far better than any commercial alternatives.

But, being the tech-optimist that I am, that raises the question, will
there be another paradigm shift in OS:s? If so, what could it be?

I think a Gibsonian cyberspace is probably not the future.

On 13/10/2024 10:50, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 22:55:37 +0200, D wrote:
>>
>>> I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or if
>>> there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate something new,
>>> that will take off with lightning speed?
>>
>> https://thenewstack.io/open-source-needs-younger-maintainers-how-can-it-
>> get-them/
>>
>> I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next big bang for operating
>> systems. For that matter Linux and *BSD have been more like a 50 year
>> slow
>> burn than any sort of bang if you consider Unix to be the progenitor.
>>
>
> I would argue linux was a big bang.

I wouldn't. We'd been using Unix for years for bigger iron than a single
user PC. It was pretty well organised in every area except its
commercial existence.
Too much Lawfare.

As soon as a Lawfare free Linux and BSD came out, people who had used
Unix grabbed it an carried on the worlds Big Iron fed up with being sued
decided that not owning Linux was a fair price to pay for no one else
owning it either.

As for open source maintainers, this
> is good! There is of course no responsibility, and I think perhaps
> companies will learn what they are basing their products on, in case a
> maintainer disappears.
>
> If there's a need, a way will be found.
>
> But looking at the developers I meet today, the vast majority are
> javascript and python ninjas.

Java as well, but plenty of C++ ers around.

>
> The ones I know who do C, rust and are generally brilliant are:
>
> 1. Few.
> 2. Older.
>
> I agree that if that is part of a trend, many open source projects will
> slowly die over the years, and as you say, the chance of a new OS from
> scratch is perhaps also lower.
>
Writing a new limited scope OS is not that hard (at least for younger
programmers) on something like a Pi Pico or Arduino.

The problem with linux is that it comes with all options available, and
being able to run 10,000 users or web sessions is not relevant to a PI
Zero running a domestic heating controller.

Most people accept this and throw in enough RAM to run the standard
kernel and dont try to modify it in anyway. The game is not worth the
candle.

I have a domestic heating contraller with a potential performance equal
to a VAX 11/70? so what?
It only cost $20

> But there is this Ladybug browser, with the associated OS, can that be
> something?

--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On 13/10/2024 01:56, Phillip Frabott wrote:
> I think the innovation is slowing down because GNU/Linux has finally
> caught up to where other operating systems are today. The same could be
> said about Windows or MacOS. They really aren't innovating with any
> speed either. My biggest thing is that I hope with us at a point now
> where we have technological parity with the other OSes, we can start to
> see projects finish the 'last mile' of development. Most of the
> FOSS/OSS/Freedom Software out there is 80% and they just stop developing
> as "good enough". Which it is, but that extra 20% polish would really
> create a top notch system that can truly rival and even overthrow the
> other operating systems. We should try to shift our focus on building
> the software to 100% but finishing that polish needed for most packages
> out there.

Yep. For all traditional applications Linux is now Good Enough and I am
FAR more interested on having applications that run on it, in my
personal linux space.

I've got a linux that is yonks old still running a public webserver.
My car is 17 years old too., It runs OK

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 13/10/2024 10:59, D wrote:
> In terms of desktop, my retired father has happily used linux for 10+
> years so I'd argue that given an honest look, the linux desktop is
> actually far better than any commercial alternatives.
>
Oh I think so.

> But, being the tech-optimist that I am, that raises the question, will
> there be another paradigm shift in OS:s? If so, what could it be?
>
I think the whole concept of an operating system is rather dated.

I mean once upon a time A Computer was a room full of grey cabinets,
whizzing tapes and blinken lights.

Not even powerful enough to HAVE an operating system

Today that's a $2 chip...on a $5 board.

> I think a Gibsonian cyberspace is probably not the future.

I am actually not so sure. The virtual reality gamers are developing
tools and driving 3D graphics to unheard of heights (or depths).
Chuck a bit of AI in that and you can have very smart games indeed. Or
weapons
Smart tech with explosives strapped to its back is everyone's favourite
suicide bomber if your population is not oversupplied with gullible idiots.

Imagine a fleet of little metal spiders, equipped with atmospheric
analysis of DNA, solar cells, and a poison barb, designed to randomly
wander around out of sight until they encounter Vladimir Putin (Or
Donald Trump) whereupon they inject the Ricin, broadcast a farewell
message, and self destruct

Crikey, the take up would be immense. Who *wouldn't* want some?

It would be like Witchcraft.

And if they ran a very cutdown version of Linux, why not?

If its technically possible and someone wants it someone will do it.

At the moment Ukraine is would leader in remote killing, and its getting
better. Some form of AI autonomy that lets it carry on without talking
to base is absolutely on the cards.

*If its technically possible, and someone wants it, someone will do it*.

--
"It was a lot more fun being 20 in the 70's that it is being 70 in the 20's"
Joew Walsh

On 10/13/2024 05:56, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>> On 10/12/2024 16:57, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/10/2024 18:13, rbowman wrote:
>>>>> On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 16:10:04 -0400, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Replacing Ballmer with Nadella seems to have had quite an impact.
>>>>>>> Often
>>>>>>> replacing a CEO is 'meet the new boss, same as the old boss'.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd disagree. I think Nadella is more like Gates then Ballmer.
>>>>>> When was
>>>>>> the last time you saw Nadella run on the stage chanting and raving
>>>>>> like
>>>>>> Ballmer did? :-P
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we agree but I phrased my remark badly. Nadella is like
>>>>> having an
>>>>> adult running the company. I'm impressed that he managed to turn the
>>>>> corporate culture around. Many times the 'new broom' has little
>>>>> effect.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know how much of that is from Nadella's personal background.
>>>>> Indian business leaders seem to have a more collaborative, longer term
>>>>> outlook than happens in the US. Ratan Tata was a good example.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm skeptical about their AI efforts but at this point I think it's
>>>>> something they have to do to stay in the game. I do hope the ARM
>>>>> experiment works out better than the previous attempt.
>>>>
>>>> You opened the door for the relatedness so I had to take it. But
>>>> yes, from a company corporate perspective I'd agree. But I don't
>>>> trust Microsoft at all regardless because to me it's all about
>>>> stealing our data and spying on us with what we do. And Nadella will
>>>> do what makes the company money. So if they have to screw over their
>>>> customers to make it so be it. "everyone" (using that loosely) uses
>>>> Windows so they can do a lot of things to their customers and get
>>>> away with it because they know their customers can't get away from
>>>> Windows and Microsoft products. So unfortunately the company's
>>>> output itself hasn't changed much.
>>>>
>>>
>>> That reminds me... today some license term changes from linkedin
>>> landed in my inbox, and apparently all your thoughts, texts and data
>>> will now be used for linkedin business development, and I assume, AI
>>> training.
>>>
>>> But don't worry... linkedin (Microsoft) has _proactively_ added an
>>> _opt- out_ button, because obviously adding an opt-in would be way
>>> too reactive. ;)
>>>
>>> Fortunately at least this practice is illegal in the EU, so there
>>> they cannot do this.
>>
>> Heh, and opt-out button... This will probably come off conspiratorial
>> but... I wouldn't trust that the opt-out button would actually opt you
>> out of anything. Since you will never be able to see exactly what
>> Microsoft puts into the training set, you'd have no way to prove or
>> validate that it actually opted you out.
>>
>> I don't mean any disrespect in this next part, but it's just my
>> thoughts. Yes, EU has laws about it, but here's the thing, first, EU
>> would have to prove Microsoft was violating the law, (which Microsoft
>> can easily cover up if they wanted to) and second, with a company as
>> powerful and profitable as Microsoft is, the fines the EU would impose
>> would be a speeding ticket to Microsoft at the end of the day. And if
>> Microsoft threatened the EU to pull it's products from the EU, the EU
>> would likely back down because, (and you can tell me if I'm wrong
>> here) the EU is probably runs Microsoft software in most of it's
>> infrastructures, and likely their government as well. It would cost
>> the EU a ton of money and resources to move away from Microsoft if
>> that were to happen and it's more likely the EU would just back away
>> instead of switching to GNU/Linux or something else due to that cost
>> of deployment, training, resources, etc. It's not like Facebook or X
>> where it would not cause a major disruption like Microsoft would.
>> Microsoft tends to be foundational. Facebook and X is just a consumer
>> service in the grand scheme of things.
>>
>> (I am making certain assumptions about the EU and Microsoft software.
>> If I'm wrong, then fair enough. But in the US most of our
>> infrastructure and government need Windows to function so I just
>> assume the EU is similar in that regard).
>>
>
> You could be right, but the speeding ticket issue I think has partly
> been addressed. The fines for breaking the law is 4%-10% of global
> revenue. That is not speeding ticket level fines.

Fair, that would be a pretty big amount.

>
> In terms of how much MS there is in the infra, you are 100% right. There
> are small initiatives here and there, for instance, München switched to
> libreoffice, but usually what happens, is that Microsoft bribes the
> politicians with promises of an R&D center employing X 100 or 1000
> people if they change back, and of course they do, since they are
> politicians and not open source enthusiasts.
>

Yeah I mean, MS would never "allow" it to happen. Until politicians are
willing to lose money, MS will continue to feed governments money to
keep them solidly on MS products. Which again, is where I can say that
any 'speeding ticket' case that would be against MS will be quickly
dismissed.

> Finally, in terms of proof, it is very common in the EU to be guilty
> until proven innocent. But don't underestimate whistle blowers who can
> leak information. I would imagine that the possibility of getting
> monetary rewards for leaks either exists already, or will be
> implemented, and that would also help motivating people to leak
> information about their employers breaking the law.
>

The issue with the 'guilty until proven innocent' is that it's much
easier to fabricate false data to 'prove' innocence. It's much harder to
fabricate evidence to fight against proof of guilt, which is why I
always felt that an 'innocent until proven guilty' approach is more
anti-corporate then 'guilty until proven innocent' is. So the EU's
system of law in this regard makes it much easier for
guilty-corporations to get away with breaking the law then in the US
where 'innocent until proven guilty' is harder to forge and get away
with. (Although neither option dismisses the fact that MS will just pay
someone off)

> There is of course a down side to all of this, and that is that the EU
> is regulating it's tech sector out of existence, so all skilled
> technologists, in time, will become employed by non-EU companies, since
> there will be no point in starting a tech company in europe, only to be
> at risk of high fines for the slightest mistake.
>

In my opinion we are starting to see that transition here in the US as
well. They are starting with the large corporations (which I think they
already have taken over) but will eventually move to the medium/small
businesses over time. I hope it doesn't happen because then it's just
evil running all of us. But we'll have to see over then next couple
elections what happens.

> In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from the
> rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There will of
> course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all innovation will
> leave the EU if its current socialist and pro-regulation agenda
> continues for long.

I fear this is coming to the US as well. "We the people" need to vote
out the politicians that are supporting this cause. But the issue is the
younger generations seem to want this to happen. Sadly I don't think
they realize how bad this is going to be for us over here but they won't
realize it until it's too late I'm afraid.

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On 10/13/2024 05:59, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>> On 10/12/2024 16:55, D wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 12 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 10/11/2024 04:53, D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, 11 Oct 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>>>>>>> Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Farley Flud <ff@linux.rocks> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> But RedHat, and its lackey Poettering,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You should note that the lackey Poettering is now employed by his
>>>>>>>> original handler when he was employed by RedHat: Microsoft.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   Lennart Poettering (born 15 October 1980) is a German software
>>>>>>>>   engineer working for Microsoft ...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Microsoft is putting an awful lot of money into Linux. I consider
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> a good thing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would prefer a free OS funded by lots of organisations putting a
>>>>>> little money in, rather than relying on a few companies that invest
>>>>>> a lot and whose individual opinions therefore matter. But beggers
>>>>>> can't be choosers (although I can still choose old versions of
>>>>>> Linux, like I'm using now, for some things).
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft funding something they don't own, usually boils down to:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish .
>>>>
>>>> I bothers me how many Linux users want these large corps money in
>>>> the game. It's dangerous in my opinion because these companies don't
>>>> have their users best interests at heart at all. And for Microsoft
>>>> it's all EEE anyways so Microsoft's Money in Linux is very bad news.
>>>> (yes, pun intended for those who got it).
>>>
>>> I agree completely. That's why linux is becoming less good and more
>>> political. I've had dealings with the linux foundation, and it was
>>> all corporate CV stuffing and corporate bullsh*t.
>>>
>>> But, another factor I think, is the age and size of the project. It
>>> is ossifying. Innovation is slowing down.
>>>
>>> I often wonder if the community oriented people will turn to BSD, or
>>> if there will be a new kind of "big bang" that will generate
>>> something new, that will take off with lightning speed?
>>
>> Forgive me, I'm going to make the assumption that when you say Linux,
>> you are referring to GNU/Linux (Linux just being the kernel).
>>
>> I think the innovation is slowing down because GNU/Linux has finally
>> caught up to where other operating systems are today. The same could
>> be said about Windows or MacOS. They really aren't innovating with any
>> speed either. My biggest thing is that I hope with us at a point now
>> where we have technological parity with the other OSes, we can start
>> to see projects finish the 'last mile' of development. Most of the
>> FOSS/OSS/Freedom Software out there is 80% and they just stop
>> developing as "good enough". Which it is, but that extra 20% polish
>> would really create a top notch system that can truly rival and even
>> overthrow the other operating systems. We should try to shift our
>> focus on building the software to 100% but finishing that polish
>> needed for most packages out there.
>>
>> (If you were referring to only the Linux kernel my statement still
>> applies, just leave the GNU bits of my statement out of it).
>>
>
> That's a good point. Maybe the OS-level is so mature, that not much
> remains to be added.
>
> In terms of desktop, my retired father has happily used linux for 10+
> years so I'd argue that given an honest look, the linux desktop is
> actually far better than any commercial alternatives.
>
> But, being the tech-optimist that I am, that raises the question, will
> there be another paradigm shift in OS:s? If so, what could it be?
>

I would think this would only happen/be necessary if/when a
technological change in hardware happens that would cause more
capability beyond the standard scope of what we have now. Remember, the
OS is just an interface between the hardware below it and the software
on top of it. It doesn't (and shouldn't) do much more then that. It's
just an interface and mediator to share 1 piece of hardware with
multiple pieces of software at the same time. So when you think about
it, the real question is, what hardware paradigm shift will happen that
will need the OS to be changed significantly.

> I think a Gibsonian cyberspace is probably not the future.

If that happens, we'll all just hack the Gibson. The police will be on
us in like, 10 minutes. And if we all do it together we can do it in 5
minutes, Lord Nikon will safe all our a**es. Lets go shopping!

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:50:39 +0200, D wrote:

> But there is this Ladybug browser, with the associated OS, can that be
> something?

It's more viable than TempleOS or some of the others.

https://wiki.osdev.org/Notable_Projects

A new OS has to be better than the existing alternatives, not only
different. It also needs to inspire the confidence that it will be around
for longer than a mayfly. A small scale example is Mbed OS.

https://os.mbed.com/blog/entry/Important-Update-on-Mbed/

https://blog.arduino.cc/2019/07/31/why-we-chose-to-build-the-arduino-
nano-33-ble-core-on-mbed-os/

The second link is why Arduino chose Mbed for the Nano 33 BLE Sense. It
made perfect sense in 2019. Arduino wasn't the only one to use Mbed. Now
they are scrambling to move to Zephyr OS.

https://blog.arduino.cc/2024/07/24/the-end-of-mbed-marks-a-new-beginning-
for-arduino/

Compared to a general purpose OS like Linux or BSD, an embedded RTOS is
samll potatoes but for something like Firefox for example to develop for a
new OS there has to be the confidence it isn't going to die. That applies
to many projects other than OSs where you're dependent on a third party.

On 2024-10-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> Smart tech with explosives strapped to its back is everyone's favourite
> suicide bomber if your population is not oversupplied with gullible idiots.

I don't see that supply running out anytime soon, on either side
of the fence. And politicians of all stripes are doing their best
to preserve that supply.

Still, your tech fantasies are rather interesting. I had a somewhat
more modest version of a cockroach-sized device that creeps into
meeting rooms, records incriminating evidence, and broadcasts it.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 13:04:00 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> I wouldn't. We'd been using Unix for years for bigger iron than a single
> user PC. It was pretty well organised in every area except its
> commercial existence.
> Too much Lawfare.

Unix had a rocky history going back the the Bell anti-trust suit and it
didn't get better as time went on. At least in the Boston area a lot of
PDP-11s were running Unix systems of dubious ancestry.

In <ln2ie6Fo4ibU2@mid.individual.net> rbowman:

> Unix had a rocky history going back the the Bell anti-trust suit and it
> didn't get better as time went on

It lingered until at least 2021 in the canker SCO+Dog Vs. World:

Timeline of SCO–Linux disputes
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_SCO%E2%80%93Linux_disputes

Why Novell sold Unix rights to SCO--insider's story
https://www.zdnet.com/article/why-novell-sold-unix-rights-to-sco-insiders-story/

--
Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
Really, it's (wyrd) at att, dotted with net. * DO NOT SPAM IT. *
I toss GoogleGroup (http://twovoyagers.com/improve-usenet.org/).

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

>>
>> In terms of how much MS there is in the infra, you are 100% right. There
>> are small initiatives here and there, for instance, München switched to
>> libreoffice, but usually what happens, is that Microsoft bribes the
>> politicians with promises of an R&D center employing X 100 or 1000 people
>> if they change back, and of course they do, since they are politicians and
>> not open source enthusiasts.
>>
>
> Yeah I mean, MS would never "allow" it to happen. Until politicians are
> willing to lose money, MS will continue to feed governments money to keep
> them solidly on MS products. Which again, is where I can say that any
> 'speeding ticket' case that would be against MS will be quickly dismissed.

I think france judged that MS has to unbundle teams from Office, and in
france it is illegal for them to give away their software since it risks
outcompeting the local competition. But I have not checked this, so
caveat emptor.

>> There is of course a down side to all of this, and that is that the EU is
>> regulating it's tech sector out of existence, so all skilled technologists,
>> in time, will become employed by non-EU companies, since there will be no
>> point in starting a tech company in europe, only to be at risk of high
>> fines for the slightest mistake.
>>
>
> In my opinion we are starting to see that transition here in the US as well.
> They are starting with the large corporations (which I think they already
> have taken over) but will eventually move to the medium/small businesses over
> time. I hope it doesn't happen because then it's just evil running all of us.
> But we'll have to see over then next couple elections what happens.

Really?! This was news to me. Usually I read in european pro-business
papers, that in the US all is well, and the EU is flushed down the
drain, so it was very interesting to hear. On the other hand, lawfare
and regulatory capture is a US national sport, so perhaps the driving
force behind that are the big corporations in order to stop any
competition from developing.

I wonder where the next wave of tech startups will come from? Perhaps
Milei will manage to drain the swamp in Argentina, and Argentina will
become the innovation power house of the planet? Talk about something
unexpected, if that were to happen!

>> In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from the
>> rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There will of
>> course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all innovation will
>> leave the EU if its current socialist and pro-regulation agenda continues
>> for long.
>
> I fear this is coming to the US as well. "We the people" need to vote out the
> politicians that are supporting this cause. But the issue is the younger
> generations seem to want this to happen. Sadly I don't think they realize how
> bad this is going to be for us over here but they won't realize it until it's
> too late I'm afraid.

Sad to hear it. And is it still the case that neither US party has any
intention of actually lowering the debt of the country? If not, I would
imagine that it eventually will reach a level at which the credit rating
agencies cannot ignore it any longer, and that day will certainly send
shock waves throughout the global economy! =/

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:

>> That's a good point. Maybe the OS-level is so mature, that not much remains
>> to be added.
>>
>> In terms of desktop, my retired father has happily used linux for 10+ years
>> so I'd argue that given an honest look, the linux desktop is actually far
>> better than any commercial alternatives.
>>
>> But, being the tech-optimist that I am, that raises the question, will
>> there be another paradigm shift in OS:s? If so, what could it be?
>>
>
> I would think this would only happen/be necessary if/when a technological
> change in hardware happens that would cause more capability beyond the
> standard scope of what we have now. Remember, the OS is just an interface
> between the hardware below it and the software on top of it. It doesn't (and
> shouldn't) do much more then that. It's just an interface and mediator to
> share 1 piece of hardware with multiple pieces of software at the same time.
> So when you think about it, the real question is, what hardware paradigm
> shift will happen that will need the OS to be changed significantly.

The only thing I can think of that would be radically different would be
quantum computers. Maybe it will work in 20-30 years or so, and perhaps
that will bring with it changes?

On the other hand, another perspective on a computer interfaces is that
I formulate things I want to do, and enter those formulations through an
input device, and read the putput from an output device.

The physical world hasn't changed much, and the GUI does seem to do the
job quite well, I mean, with a terminal and a GUI, I do not feel
constrained in any way.

On the other hand, that's why they call it a paradigm shift, since I am
probably not even aware of the next paradigm, so maybe I am contrained
after all, I just do not know it. ;)

>> I think a Gibsonian cyberspace is probably not the future.
>
> If that happens, we'll all just hack the Gibson. The police will be on us in
> like, 10 minutes. And if we all do it together we can do it in 5 minutes,
> Lord Nikon will safe all our a**es. Lets go shopping!

True! ;)

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024 11:50:39 +0200, D wrote:
>
>> But there is this Ladybug browser, with the associated OS, can that be
>> something?
>
> It's more viable than TempleOS or some of the others.
>
> https://wiki.osdev.org/Notable_Projects
>
> A new OS has to be better than the existing alternatives, not only
> different. It also needs to inspire the confidence that it will be around
> for longer than a mayfly. A small scale example is Mbed OS.
>
> https://os.mbed.com/blog/entry/Important-Update-on-Mbed/
>
> https://blog.arduino.cc/2019/07/31/why-we-chose-to-build-the-arduino-
> nano-33-ble-core-on-mbed-os/
>
> The second link is why Arduino chose Mbed for the Nano 33 BLE Sense. It
> made perfect sense in 2019. Arduino wasn't the only one to use Mbed. Now
> they are scrambling to move to Zephyr OS.
>
> https://blog.arduino.cc/2024/07/24/the-end-of-mbed-marks-a-new-beginning-
> for-arduino/
>
> Compared to a general purpose OS like Linux or BSD, an embedded RTOS is
> samll potatoes but for something like Firefox for example to develop for a
> new OS there has to be the confidence it isn't going to die. That applies
> to many projects other than OSs where you're dependent on a third party.

Those are all good points.

On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-10-13, The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Smart tech with explosives strapped to its back is everyone's favourite
>> suicide bomber if your population is not oversupplied with gullible idiots.
>
> I don't see that supply running out anytime soon, on either side
> of the fence. And politicians of all stripes are doing their best
> to preserve that supply.
>
> Still, your tech fantasies are rather interesting. I had a somewhat
> more modest version of a cockroach-sized device that creeps into
> meeting rooms, records incriminating evidence, and broadcasts it.
>

Cockroach? Think flea-sized! Or even better... nano-dots! ;)

On 10/13/2024 16:34, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>>>
>>> In terms of how much MS there is in the infra, you are 100% right.
>>> There are small initiatives here and there, for instance, München
>>> switched to libreoffice, but usually what happens, is that Microsoft
>>> bribes the politicians with promises of an R&D center employing X 100
>>> or 1000 people if they change back, and of course they do, since they
>>> are politicians and not open source enthusiasts.
>>>
>>
>> Yeah I mean, MS would never "allow" it to happen. Until politicians
>> are willing to lose money, MS will continue to feed governments money
>> to keep them solidly on MS products. Which again, is where I can say
>> that any 'speeding ticket' case that would be against MS will be
>> quickly dismissed.
>
> I think france judged that MS has to unbundle teams from Office, and in
> france it is illegal for them to give away their software since it risks
> outcompeting the local competition. But I have not checked this, so
> caveat emptor.
>

I haven't done a lot of looking into this, but I have heard the same. I
seriously doubt Microsoft will actually comply with this though. Teams
and Office are their bread and butter and if they were to do it, it
would be at a higher price tag more likely. Either Microsoft will pay
France off at some point or they will threaten to pull out of France. If
France uses Office and Teams in important sectors they will likely cave.
It'll be interesting to look into this over the next 6 months and see
what happens.

>>> There is of course a down side to all of this, and that is that the
>>> EU is regulating it's tech sector out of existence, so all skilled
>>> technologists, in time, will become employed by non-EU companies,
>>> since there will be no point in starting a tech company in europe,
>>> only to be at risk of high fines for the slightest mistake.
>>>
>>
>> In my opinion we are starting to see that transition here in the US as
>> well. They are starting with the large corporations (which I think
>> they already have taken over) but will eventually move to the medium/
>> small businesses over time. I hope it doesn't happen because then it's
>> just evil running all of us. But we'll have to see over then next
>> couple elections what happens.
>
> Really?! This was news to me. Usually I read in european pro-business
> papers, that in the US all is well, and the EU is flushed down the
> drain, so it was very interesting to hear. On the other hand, lawfare
> and regulatory capture is a US national sport, so perhaps the driving
> force behind that are the big corporations in order to stop any
> competition from developing.
>

Heh, The government controls the news and most of the media here.
(specifically the democratic party). Facebook, Google, and Microsoft all
do the Government's bidding and the only reason why Twitter stopped
being a Government puppet is because Elon purchased it and kicked the
Government out (government has been going after Elon ever since). I
should note that our Government power is in Democrat hands right now.
Democrats will deny this is happening but you can do the research and
look into things beyond the surface and you can find the truth of it.
This election between Kamala and Trump will decide the fate of the US.
If Kamala wins the Government will shift to either a Nationalist
Socialist country or a Communist Socialist country depending on certain
other factors. If Trump wins we will remain a Republic Capitalist
country. Despite what the media says, word on the ground is Trump is
winning hearts and minds and personally I think that's good for our
country. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks. (Our elections
are Nov 5th)

> I wonder where the next wave of tech startups will come from? Perhaps
> Milei will manage to drain the swamp in Argentina, and Argentina will
> become the innovation power house of the planet? Talk about something
> unexpected, if that were to happen!
>
>>> In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from
>>> the rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There
>>> will of course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all
>>> innovation will leave the EU if its current socialist and pro-
>>> regulation agenda continues for long.
>>
>> I fear this is coming to the US as well. "We the people" need to vote
>> out the politicians that are supporting this cause. But the issue is
>> the younger generations seem to want this to happen. Sadly I don't
>> think they realize how bad this is going to be for us over here but
>> they won't realize it until it's too late I'm afraid.
>
> Sad to hear it. And is it still the case that neither US party has any
> intention of actually lowering the debt of the country? If not, I would
> imagine that it eventually will reach a level at which the credit rating
> agencies cannot ignore it any longer, and that day will certainly send
> shock waves throughout the global economy! =/

Despite what the media says Trump is our better bet in this regard. The
issue is, because of democrat spending over the last 2 decades (they
have held office 12 out of the 20 years) it would take at least 2-3
republican presidential terms to stop the bleed and break even. probably
another 2 terms to start lowering the debt. There is just so much waste
happening that the best Trump can do in 4 years (assuming he gets into
the office again, fingers crossed) is slow down the spending. It will
take another republican president 2 more terms (8 years) to get all the
rest of the waste out of our government budget to get to 0/0 each year.
It would also cost us a lot of social services that go to people who
really don't need them. Don't get my wrong, there are legitimate cases
and I believe we should take care of our people but in my opinion, we
spend 30% of those services on people who actually need it and 70% on
people who don't. I mean, I could get on social services right now if I
wanted to and get $660 a month for free and continue working my job. And
there is absolutely nothing wrong with me (and I do very well for myself
financially so if someone like me can get $660 a month you know money is
being wasted). If we get rid of that 70% junk spending then we'd
probably cut a large portion of our spending down.

Sorry, got off topic there..

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On 10/13/2024 16:37, D wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>>> That's a good point. Maybe the OS-level is so mature, that not much
>>> remains to be added.
>>>
>>> In terms of desktop, my retired father has happily used linux for 10+
>>> years so I'd argue that given an honest look, the linux desktop is
>>> actually far better than any commercial alternatives.
>>>
>>> But, being the tech-optimist that I am, that raises the question,
>>> will there be another paradigm shift in OS:s? If so, what could it be?
>>>
>>
>> I would think this would only happen/be necessary if/when a
>> technological change in hardware happens that would cause more
>> capability beyond the standard scope of what we have now. Remember,
>> the OS is just an interface between the hardware below it and the
>> software on top of it. It doesn't (and shouldn't) do much more then
>> that. It's just an interface and mediator to share 1 piece of hardware
>> with multiple pieces of software at the same time. So when you think
>> about it, the real question is, what hardware paradigm shift will
>> happen that will need the OS to be changed significantly.
>
> The only thing I can think of that would be radically different would be
> quantum computers. Maybe it will work in 20-30 years or so, and perhaps
> that will bring with it changes?

It would honestly depend on how different the processing of input and
output is from the hardware-level kernel exposure. Meaning, what
interfaces does the kernel need to interface with a quantum processor
and is it significant enough to warrant an incompatible change with
existing kernels. Because software input/output wouldn't really change
between the kernel/OS and the application. The data is just different
but the method to get the data to the kernel for processing is likely
not to change much (but I could be wrong). I mean if you go into the
current kernel you will still find implementation to use internet-based
applications over a ham (amateur) radio interface. I mean you can
literally run a radio-only telnet/SSH server over radio transmission
without any internet connectivity at all. But because the input/output
between the kernel and the application is the same regardless of if it's
over amateur radio or Ethernet, there is not enough to warrant a
paradigm shift. So it all will just depend on exactly how interfacing
with a quantum computer would work. It'll be an interesting subject
that's for sure. I'll probably be too old by then to really figure it
out though. heh.

>
> On the other hand, another perspective on a computer interfaces is that
> I formulate things I want to do, and enter those formulations through an
> input device, and read the putput from an output device.
>
> The physical world hasn't changed much, and the GUI does seem to do the
> job quite well, I mean, with a terminal and a GUI, I do not feel
> constrained in any way.
>
> On the other hand, that's why they call it a paradigm shift, since I am
> probably not even aware of the next paradigm, so maybe I am contrained
> after all, I just do not know it. ;)
>
>>> I think a Gibsonian cyberspace is probably not the future.
>>
>> If that happens, we'll all just hack the Gibson. The police will be on
>> us in like, 10 minutes. And if we all do it together we can do it in 5
>> minutes, Lord Nikon will safe all our a**es. Lets go shopping!
>
> True! ;)
>

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On 2024-10-13, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> On Sun, 13 Oct 2024, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>>> In terms of how much MS there is in the infra, you are 100% right. There
>>> are small initiatives here and there, for instance, München switched to
>>> libreoffice, but usually what happens, is that Microsoft bribes the
>>> politicians with promises of an R&D center employing X 100 or 1000 people
>>> if they change back, and of course they do, since they are politicians and
>>> not open source enthusiasts.

Except, perhaps, for Venezuela. I haven't heard much news lately about
how their open-source mandate was going - is it still in effect?

>> Yeah I mean, MS would never "allow" it to happen. Until politicians are
>> willing to lose money, MS will continue to feed governments money to keep
>> them solidly on MS products. Which again, is where I can say that any
>> 'speeding ticket' case that would be against MS will be quickly dismissed.
>
> I think france judged that MS has to unbundle teams from Office, and in
> france it is illegal for them to give away their software since it risks
> outcompeting the local competition. But I have not checked this, so
> caveat emptor.

I once got my hands on a copy of Window XP N - the N stands for "No
Internet Explorer", which was a European mandate.

<snip>

>>> In my opinion, the EU will become a museum where rich tourists from the
>>> rest of the world will go to experience food and culture. There will of
>>> course be a tail of tech jobs in heavy industry, but all innovation will
>>> leave the EU if its current socialist and pro-regulation agenda continues
>>> for long.
>>
>> I fear this is coming to the US as well. "We the people" need to vote out
>> the politicians that are supporting this cause.

Who will they vote in? These days voting is like trying to decide
whether you want to be shot or stabbed.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
-- The Who

>> But the issue is the younger
>> generations seem to want this to happen. Sadly I don't think they realize
>> how bad this is going to be for us over here but they won't realize it
>> until it's too late I'm afraid.

It is sad - it's like watching drug addicts slip away.

> Sad to hear it. And is it still the case that neither US party has any
> intention of actually lowering the debt of the country? If not, I would
> imagine that it eventually will reach a level at which the credit rating
> agencies cannot ignore it any longer, and that day will certainly send
> shock waves throughout the global economy! =/

I wonder whether national debt is even seen the same way as personal
debt. It certainly doesn't seem that way. If we as individuals ran
our finances the way governments run theirs, we'd be thrown in jail.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 2024-10-13, Phillip Frabott <nntp@fulltermprivacy.com> wrote:
> Heh, The government controls the news and most of the media here.
> (specifically the democratic party). Facebook, Google, and Microsoft all
> do the Government's bidding and the only reason why Twitter stopped
> being a Government puppet is because Elon purchased it and kicked the
> Government out (government has been going after Elon ever since). I
> should note that our Government power is in Democrat hands right now.
> Democrats will deny this is happening but you can do the research and
> look into things beyond the surface and you can find the truth of it.
> This election between Kamala and Trump will decide the fate of the US.
> If Kamala wins the Government will shift to either a Nationalist
> Socialist country or a Communist Socialist country depending on certain
> other factors. If Trump wins we will remain a Republic Capitalist
> country. Despite what the media says, word on the ground is Trump is
> winning hearts and minds and personally I think that's good for our
> country. We'll see what happens in the next few weeks. (Our elections
> are Nov 5th)

The only borderline Nazi team in this election is the Trumpist party,
which has all but promised that if they win, they are going to prosecuter
their opponents, and "if you elect me, you will never have to vote
again", where as Kamala Harris a[ppears to be a typical center-right
Democrat.

> Despite what the media says Trump is our better bet in this regard. The
> issue is, because of democrat spending over the last 2 decades (they
> have held office 12 out of the 20 years) it would take at least 2-3
> republican presidential terms to stop the bleed and break even. probably
> another 2 terms to start lowering the debt. There is just so much waste
> happening that the best Trump can do in 4 years (assuming he gets into
> the office again, fingers crossed) is slow down the spending. It will
> take another republican president 2 more terms (8 years) to get all the
> rest of the waste out of our government budget to get to 0/0 each year.

The fact is that for decades, the Republican administrations have run up
the deficits, while Democrats have reduced them.

> Sorry, got off topic there..

Not just off-topic, but fact-free or worse.