doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>In article <v9ppjt$lu78$1@news1.tnib.de>,
>Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>>doctor@doctor.nl2k.ab.ca (The Doctor) wrote:
>>>Dual booted befreo with OS/2 and Windows in the 1990s.
>>
>>I have expert knowledge and am able to do dual, triple, quadruple
>>boot. I am glad that I don't need to go through that hassle any more.
>>
>>Greetings
>>Marc
>
>OPtions are always great.

Yes, there is more than one way to do it. But it is still good to know
which way is considered the better one.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>> A big part of grub is building the configuration, which is done by
>> scripts that come from the respective distribution. And yes, there are
>> differences in those scripts.
>
>The Debian one messed up a dual-boot set-up on me after an upgrade,

Which upgrade? Did you file a bug? Did you have a backup?

>and there was no simple description of manual configuration in the
>Grub docs.

Yes, that's a problem with grub: It has evolved to a full, low-level
operating system, and it's almost impossible to use it without relying
on the scripts to build a correct configuration.

>I've since replaced Grub2 with the Extlinux bootloader
>everywhere (after determining that Grub "Legacy" doesn't work
>booting new Linux distros anymore), which doesn't expect you to
>rely on flaky scripts to make its equivalent of Grub Legacy's good
>old menu.lst.

menu.lst was hard to write as well. The grub2 scripts in Debian have
not failed me (yet), and I have extensively hacked on them. But, otoh,
I avoid dualbooting where I can. And that's not grub's fault.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>On 8/17/24 5:16 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
>> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>> On 8/14/24 9:31 AM, The Doctor wrote:
>>>> So far, I am liking it.
>>>>
>>>> I can use Debian to Boot Between Debian and FreeBSD.
>>>>
>>>> Can Debian grub look after other systems?
>>>
>>> GRUB can work multi-boots ... most any Linux will
>>> install GRUB and you can add on from there. GRUB
>>> is not Linux, not Debian, its own app.
>>
>> A big part of grub is building the configuration, which is done by
>> scripts that come from the respective distribution. And yes, there are
>> differences in those scripts.
>
> I noticed that when trying to put Linux on laptops
> with the early nvram 'disks'.

What do you mean? What are nvram disks?

>> I prefer KVM/libvirt/virt-manager. Virtualbox needs out of tree kernel
>> modules, which can be a hassle during upgrades. I don't agree on the
>> flexibility point. Virtualbox caters more for the novice user because
>> its GUI is a bit more polished.
>
> KVM is perfectly good - UNTIL you want to maybe ENLARGE
> a virtual disk. Then you've gotta edit config files and
> do some other weird stuff.

Resize the LV the virtual disk resides on and the VM will behave as if
you exchanged the disk with a new one.

> With VBox its just sliding
> a control and VBox does the rest.

Including partitions and filesystem resize inside the VM? As
impressive that is, the old fart in my isnt comfortable with that
level of magic. This is bound to break some time.

> KVM also uses a custom
> kernel wheras VBox generally doesn't need that.

This doesn't parse. KVM has been integral part of the mainline Linux
kernel tree for a decade while VBox still requires out-of-tree
Modules.

Are you confusing KVM and XEN?

> All in all, I'd say the two were kinda "even".

I disagree. KVM/libvirt is way more flexible. For me, it's KVM because
I'm using it in my own fleet to maintain my proficiency in case I need
to work with it again some time in the future. That's not going to
happen with Virtualbox due to its license.

Stupid question: Is there a difference between VirtualBox and VBox?

> Hey, if you've got a hot i9 with gobs of ram then lots
> of usable VMs are kinda the logical step.

I am running five server VMs on a machine with 4 Gig of RAM. My "big"
virtualization server has 32 Gigs and runs 22 VMs, with more than 10
Gig free to use for disk cache. So the "gobs of RAM" is lore from two
decades ago, any decently modern machine can handle a handful Linux
VMs just fine.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>>Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
>>> A big part of grub is building the configuration, which is done by
>>> scripts that come from the respective distribution. And yes, there are
>>> differences in those scripts.
>>
>>The Debian one messed up a dual-boot set-up on me after an upgrade,
>
> Which upgrade?

Too many years ago, can't remember.

> Did you file a bug?

That probably would have kept me busy a week or more, trying to
improve software that, compared to Extlinux, is being willfully
overcomplicated anyway. No I certainly didn't.

> Did you have a backup?

Yes, but actually I did away with the dual-boot in order to get
things fixed quickly. It was someone else's PC and I had limited
time, they decided they didn't really care about booting into the
old OS again anyway.

>>and there was no simple description of manual configuration in the
>>Grub docs.
>
> Yes, that's a problem with grub: It has evolved to a full, low-level
> operating system, and it's almost impossible to use it without relying
> on the scripts to build a correct configuration.

That's amazing, such a huge step backwards, for what?

>>I've since replaced Grub2 with the Extlinux bootloader
>>everywhere (after determining that Grub "Legacy" doesn't work
>>booting new Linux distros anymore), which doesn't expect you to
>>rely on flaky scripts to make its equivalent of Grub Legacy's good
>>old menu.lst.
>
> menu.lst was hard to write as well.

Not at all, here's booting Linux:

title [menu title]
kernel [kernel path & options]
makeactive
boot

Booting Windows on the first partition of the first disk:

title Windows 98SE
root (hd0,0)
chainloader +1
makeactive
boot

What's hard? Fighting buggy scripts, that's hard. Old Grub just did
what you asked it to, like Syslinux/Extlinux mercifully still do.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 11:02:34 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

> I guess the main risk with multiple boot scenarios involving Windows is
> Windows wiping it out on purpose. (Or perhaps out of incompetence? I
> mean, it's said not to attribute to malice...)

Windows introduces a whole new category of malfeasance: “malicious
incompetence”.

On 2024-08-18, Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> I guess the main risk with multiple boot scenarios involving Windows is
> Windows wiping it out on purpose. (Or perhaps out of incompetence? I
> mean, it's said not to attribute to malice...)

You're thinking of Hanlon's Razor:

Never ascribe to malice that which can
adequately be explained by stupidity.

I have to constantly remind myself of this.
And even then, a little voice in the back of
my head says, "But Microsoft isn't stupid!"

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 8/18/24 1:31 PM, Marc Haber wrote:
> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> On 8/17/24 5:16 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
>>> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>> On 8/14/24 9:31 AM, The Doctor wrote:
>>>>> So far, I am liking it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can use Debian to Boot Between Debian and FreeBSD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can Debian grub look after other systems?
>>>>
>>>> GRUB can work multi-boots ... most any Linux will
>>>> install GRUB and you can add on from there. GRUB
>>>> is not Linux, not Debian, its own app.
>>>
>>> A big part of grub is building the configuration, which is done by
>>> scripts that come from the respective distribution. And yes, there are
>>> differences in those scripts.
>>
>> I noticed that when trying to put Linux on laptops
>> with the early nvram 'disks'.
>
> What do you mean? What are nvram disks?

Def : "NvRAM" - Non-Volatile-Random-Access-Memory ...
the 'e-disk' you now find in every laptop and oft
even desktops these days. Most commonly "M2" but
the tech can be put in other things/formats. First
saw one in the Asus EEEPC as the main 'drive'.

AT THAT TIME, GRUB really only looked at mag and USB
drives as potentially "bootable".

I miss that EEEPC ... dropped it off a ladder while
trying to position a new security cam :-(

>>> I prefer KVM/libvirt/virt-manager. Virtualbox needs out of tree kernel
>>> modules, which can be a hassle during upgrades. I don't agree on the
>>> flexibility point. Virtualbox caters more for the novice user because
>>> its GUI is a bit more polished.
>>
>> KVM is perfectly good - UNTIL you want to maybe ENLARGE
>> a virtual disk. Then you've gotta edit config files and
>> do some other weird stuff.
>
> Resize the LV the virtual disk resides on and the VM will behave as if
> you exchanged the disk with a new one.
>
>> With VBox its just sliding
>> a control and VBox does the rest.

With KVM ??? No, you have to make two edits in the
main config file. Even that doesn't entirely get you
there - there's a utility for expanding the logical
partition into the new space also. Can't do it with
GParted as it won't let you re-size what you're currently
running from. The utility acts like - when you install
to an SD card on a Pi there's an automatic re-size to
completely expand '/' to fill the card. Same idea,
maybe 95% the same code.

> Including partitions and filesystem resize inside the VM? As
> impressive that is, the old fart in my isnt comfortable with that
> level of magic. This is bound to break some time.
>
>> KVM also uses a custom
>> kernel wheras VBox generally doesn't need that.
>
> This doesn't parse. KVM has been integral part of the mainline Linux
> kernel tree for a decade while VBox still requires out-of-tree
> Modules.

Ummm ... not always - the last place I used KVM was
a Debian, "Buster" I think. It DID install a KVM
optimized kernel - which SCREWED UP. Had to go
back to the previous kernel and nuke KVM.

> You confusing KVM and XEN?

I remember each distinctly. Xen worked "ok", but
just didn't seem as comprehensive as KVM/VBox.
Never benchmarked the two against each other.

>> All in all, I'd say the two were kinda "even".
>
> I disagree. KVM/libvirt is way more flexible. For me, it's KVM because
> I'm using it in my own fleet to maintain my proficiency in case I need
> to work with it again some time in the future. That's not going to
> happen with Virtualbox due to its license.

As said somewhere, KVM is *good* ... I just came to
pref VBox because some aspects were "easier". Either
can now be set to auto-boot the VMs.

> Stupid question: Is there a difference between VirtualBox and VBox?

Of course - entirely different code. The ENDS are kinda
the same, and kinda equally achieved. As Oracle could
get all greedy someday, I'm happy KVM & Xen are out there.

>> Hey, if you've got a hot i9 with gobs of ram then lots
>> of usable VMs are kinda the logical step.
>
> I am running five server VMs on a machine with 4 Gig of RAM. My "big"
> virtualization server has 32 Gigs and runs 22 VMs, with more than 10
> Gig free to use for disk cache. So the "gobs of RAM" is lore from two
> decades ago, any decently modern machine can handle a handful Linux
> VMs just fine.

4 gig ? DO-able, but kinda TIGHT. The 32g unit ought to
be better. As for "gobs" ... depends on WHAT you're running
on the VMs. Some apps/servers are more memory-intensive
than others ... ArcGIS for example.

Anyway, mem is still fairly cheap, so why buy 4g when 8g
barely costs any more ? The little BMax boxes I recently
bought came with 16gb - and were still under $150. They
run Manjaro and Fedora real fine. Looking to put FreeBSD
on the last one plus some simple NAS setup.

Hey ... how about a vm under fBSD running OpenMediaVault ?
I can use bhyve or Xen, there's a BSD port of VBox too. :-)

On 8/18/24 2:28 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:24:58 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Also tried Xen ... but that seems to have fallen well behind the
>> curve at this point ...
>
> <https://xen-orchestra.com/>

Oh, it's still THERE of course - and maybe they've
improved it ... last time I messed around with Xen,
comparing to KVM and VBox ... was five or six years
ago. At least then, well, it just seemed a bit clunkier.

ON THE WHOLE, you can achieve pretty much the same
outcomes with KVM/Xen/VBox. They're all "good".
Kinda comes down the finer look-n-feel, what YOU like.
I know VBox will boot CP/M-86, but I never tried that
on the others.

For ConfigFilePhobes ... I'd still rec VBox.

On 8/18/24 8:34 AM, The Doctor wrote:
> In article <NIucnUlRSumk8Fz7nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
> 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> On 8/17/24 5:12 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 10:12:09 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> That being said, if you're not an expert, avoid dual boot please.
>>>>> Especially if Windows is one of the OSses.
>>>>
>>>> I have heard others recommend against dual boot, too. Mistakes will likely
>>>> lead to neither OS being able to boot; this is typically easy to fix if
>>>> you know your way around a tool like SystemRescue, but if not, it can be
>>>> fatal.
>>>
>>> Yes. You need to have expert knowledge in all involved operating
>>> systems to fix that. Virtualization or dedicated hardware (swappable
>>> disks or even dedicated machines) is way easier for a beginner.
>>
>> Very correct. FIXING a hosed multi-boot system is NOT
>> a trivial exercise ... might even be just impossible
>> and require total re-installs.
>>
>> The poster sounds like a relative newbie, not a grizzled
>> systems guy with a bottle of whisky and old cans of JOLT
>> Cola in the desk drawer who stays up to 5am :-)
>>
>> VMs these days ARE the better way to go. With today's
>> CPU power and huge memory caps they're an even better
>> way to go.
>>
>> Still, I'd rec Linux as the 'primary' OS you use to
>> create the VMs - not Winder$
>
> I prefer FreeBSD bhyve !!

Also a very good choice. I know Xen and VBox
can also be had for the BSDs. Nothing like
"choices" :-)

I've one more mini-box to set up - and it's gonna
be FreeBSD at the base. However I'm also gonna set
that up for VMs ... a mail server, OpenMediaVault
and a DB for sure. The mini-box isn't super-powerful
but with Unix/Linux stuff instead of M$ it's got
plenty of capacity. Hmmm ... a Win2k vm ? Also
have Win-1.1 :-)

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:38:23 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> For ConfigFilePhobes ... I'd still rec VBox.

That’s why Xen Orchestra offers such a nice GUI.

(There’s a command line behind it, so you can get to that if you want.)

Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
> Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> How about the part of EFI boot configuration that is store in NVRAM?
>
That doesn't change very often. Most times it will still be the same as
yesterday.

I haven't found that being a problem the few times I've needed to do the
restoration.

Jack
--
"I'm a home-loving girl. And that's where I wish I was."
"At home ..."
"Loving."
- Laugh-In, 1968

Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> writes:
>
> This is probably the chicken-and-egg aspect of it. Probably the best is
> having an isolated (removable or otherwise unplugged) bootable medium
> ready in case it's needed.
>
All computer users should have an emergency kit. The main component
of which being a bootable utilities system. In today's world, such a
bootable emergency kit is a Live/Install USB. And most of those have
a 'writable' partition that can be filled with extra utilities on top.

>
> I guess the main risk with multiple boot scenarios involving Windows is
> Windows wiping it out on purpose. (Or perhaps out of incompetence? I
> mean, it's said not to attribute to malice...)

Once you receive Windows on your new machine, you have a choice: erase
it competely or minimise it down to almost nothing.

I tend to keep my Windows partitions after I have squeezed them down to
somewhere between 50 and 100 gigs on a multi-terabyte system. I don't know
why really, I only boot "real" Windows occasionally to run Windows Update.

On the rare occasions that I actually *use* Windows, it's a Windows 7* guest
on Linux VirtualBox so that I can run my HP multi-page scanner software.

* Windows 7 was "Peak Windows".

Jack
--
My Wife told me to take the spider out instead of killing him.

Went out. Had a few drinks. Nice guy. He's a web designer.

Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> This is probably the chicken-and-egg aspect of it. Probably the best is
>> having an isolated (removable or otherwise unplugged) bootable medium
>> ready in case it's needed.
>>
>All computer users should have an emergency kit. The main component
>of which being a bootable utilities system. In today's world, such a
>bootable emergency kit is a Live/Install USB. And most of those have
>a 'writable' partition that can be filled with extra utilities on top.

The recommended thing is a specialized rescue/forensic system, such as
grml. Why carry the ballast of a live system with GUI, Audio, Video,
Development Environment etc if it can also be more lightweight?

>> I guess the main risk with multiple boot scenarios involving Windows is
>> Windows wiping it out on purpose. (Or perhaps out of incompetence? I
>> mean, it's said not to attribute to malice...)
>
>Once you receive Windows on your new machine, you have a choice: erase
>it competely or minimise it down to almost nothing.

"almost nothing" nowadays means a middle two-digit number of
gigabytes. A windows that is short on space won't update at all, a
windows that is not so short on space will try to update and then fail
with a nondescript eight-digit error number. Only a windows that as
ample space will update cleanly.

>* Windows 7 was "Peak Windows".

Windows 10 and 11 are better than their reputation if you leave the
data protection stuff aside.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
>> Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> How about the part of EFI boot configuration that is store in NVRAM?
>>
>That doesn't change very often. Most times it will still be the same as
>yesterday.
>
>I haven't found that being a problem the few times I've needed to do the
>restoration.

You obviously never had to restore because of failed hardware.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>Fighting buggy scripts, that's hard.

Those scripts are in use on millions of installations millions of
times daily. They can hardly be unusably buggy.

>Old Grub just did
>what you asked it to, like Syslinux/Extlinux mercifully still do.

In my world, using exotic solutions without pressing reason is
considered a technical liability.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> Def : "NvRAM" - Non-Volatile-Random-Access-Memory ...
> the 'e-disk' you now find in every laptop and oft
> even desktops these days. Most commonly "M2" but
> the tech can be put in other things/formats. First
> saw one in the Asus EEEPC as the main 'drive'.

That terminology is totally exotic. You're probably mixing up NVMe and
NVRAM.

>>>> I prefer KVM/libvirt/virt-manager. Virtualbox needs out of tree kernel
>>>> modules, which can be a hassle during upgrades. I don't agree on the
>>>> flexibility point. Virtualbox caters more for the novice user because
>>>> its GUI is a bit more polished.
>>>
>>> KVM is perfectly good - UNTIL you want to maybe ENLARGE
>>> a virtual disk. Then you've gotta edit config files and
>>> do some other weird stuff.
>>
>> Resize the LV the virtual disk resides on and the VM will behave as if
>> you exchanged the disk with a new one.
>>
>>> With VBox its just sliding
>>> a control and VBox does the rest.
>
> With KVM ??? No, you have to make two edits in the
> main config file.

Incorrect. Never had to do that.

>> This doesn't parse. KVM has been integral part of the mainline Linux
>> kernel tree for a decade while VBox still requires out-of-tree
>> Modules.
>
> Ummm ... not always - the last place I used KVM was
> a Debian, "Buster" I think. It DID install a KVM
> optimized kernel - which SCREWED UP. Had to go
> back to the previous kernel and nuke KVM.

Debian Buster does not have a package that matches linux-image and
KVM. What are you refering to?

Ubuntu has a KVM _guest_ kernel that just doesn't include drivers that
you don't use in a VM.

>> Stupid question: Is there a difference between VirtualBox and VBox?
>
> Of course - entirely different code. The ENDS are kinda
> the same, and kinda equally achieved. As Oracle could
> get all greedy someday, I'm happy KVM & Xen are out there.

Can you give me a link to VBox please?

>>> Hey, if you've got a hot i9 with gobs of ram then lots
>>> of usable VMs are kinda the logical step.
>>
>> I am running five server VMs on a machine with 4 Gig of RAM. My "big"
>> virtualization server has 32 Gigs and runs 22 VMs, with more than 10
>> Gig free to use for disk cache. So the "gobs of RAM" is lore from two
>> decades ago, any decently modern machine can handle a handful Linux
>> VMs just fine.
>
> 4 gig ? DO-able, but kinda TIGHT. The 32g unit ought to
> be better. As for "gobs" ... depends on WHAT you're running
> on the VMs. Some apps/servers are more memory-intensive
> than others ... ArcGIS for example.

Of course. Any software is not going to be smaller on a VM than on
bare metal. But you can't blame that to virtualizatin.

> Anyway, mem is still fairly cheap, so why buy 4g when 8g
> barely costs any more ?

Because housing machines can get expensive pretty quickly. The APU I
am running those five VMs on comes with 4 GB and is not expandable.
And it does the job silently and doesn't get hot.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

On 8/19/24 2:35 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> Def : "NvRAM" - Non-Volatile-Random-Access-Memory ...
>> the 'e-disk' you now find in every laptop and oft
>> even desktops these days. Most commonly "M2" but
>> the tech can be put in other things/formats. First
>> saw one in the Asus EEEPC as the main 'drive'.
>
> That terminology is totally exotic. You're probably mixing up NVMe and
> NVRAM.

Um ... nothing remotely "exotic" about it.
What cave have you been living in since 1969 ???
It's all the SAME THING ... just different acronyms.

>> 4 gig ? DO-able, but kinda TIGHT. The 32g unit ought to
>> be better. As for "gobs" ... depends on WHAT you're running
>> on the VMs. Some apps/servers are more memory-intensive
>> than others ... ArcGIS for example.
>
> Of course. Any software is not going to be smaller on a VM than on
> bare metal. But you can't blame that to virtualizatin.

Not "blaming" it - that's just How It Is. If you
run a big busy DB as a VM then you're gonna have
to provide the CPU/mem so it'll run properly.

>> Anyway, mem is still fairly cheap, so why buy 4g when 8g
>> barely costs any more ?
>
> Because housing machines can get expensive pretty quickly. The APU I
> am running those five VMs on comes with 4 GB and is not expandable.
> And it does the job silently and doesn't get hot.

What's your fix - "go cloud" ??? A lot of us KNOW better,
how BADLY that can go wrong.

And with Russia/China/NK initiatives it's gonna go
all the wronger all the faster.

In any case, your 4gb solution sounds kinda "marginal", but
of course that depends on what your VMs are/do and whether
you run 'em one at a time or all together.

Even these modern mini-boxes (search Amazon, there are a
huge selection of variants) are - with Linux/Unix - more
than adequate for a large number of "common" uses. Those
ultra-i9's ... well ... maybe if your main thing is
playing games. That's valid - but "biz" has a different
spectrum of needs. With -ix, even a modern i3 can host
like an entire airport booking system, multi-company, and
be pretty snappy. Each airline gets its own VM.

"186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>On 8/19/24 2:35 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
>> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>> Def : "NvRAM" - Non-Volatile-Random-Access-Memory ...
>>> the 'e-disk' you now find in every laptop and oft
>>> even desktops these days. Most commonly "M2" but
>>> the tech can be put in other things/formats. First
>>> saw one in the Asus EEEPC as the main 'drive'.
>>
>> That terminology is totally exotic. You're probably mixing up NVMe and
>> NVRAM.
>
>
> Um ... nothing remotely "exotic" about it.
> What cave have you been living in since 1969 ???
> It's all the SAME THING ... just different acronyms.

Get your facts straight, boy. It's not a shame to not know something.
It's a shame to not educate yourself after being corrected.

> Even these modern mini-boxes (search Amazon, there are a
> huge selection of variants)

If you want to have more than two ethernet ports, for example in
network/firewall applications, the air gets thin pretty quickly.
Aliexpress has more of those, but many of those come without docs, so
it's basically luck to get it to work, and if you want to have some
continuity in buying Aliexpress is a bad idea.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

On 14/08/24 15:31, The Doctor wrote:
> So far, I am liking it.
>
> I can use Debian to Boot Between Debian and FreeBSD.
>
> Can Debian grub look after other systems?

it detects at least every other linux flavours, Windows for
sure.
Possibly MacOS and related, but I am not sure of this.

The problem is the reverse : do the other OS behave as
politely as Debian does ? Windows not at all.

The other linuxes behave differently depending on whether
the boot is from a legacy MSDOS MBR or via multiple copies
of grub files in a GPT disk.
I have the old setup, and when One distro updates grub and
rebuilds initramfs, it installs its own copy that replaces
the other.

With the new GPT one can configure both as they were really
independend, side by side.

Imvho opinion windows is preferably run inside a virtual
machine. Win11 runs very well virtualized, and does not
break anything outside. Files can be shared among guest and
host. VMWare manages this really smoothly (with aggressive
caching and delayed committing to the network-disk).

--
1) Resistere, resistere, resistere.
2) Se tutti pagano le tasse, le tasse le pagano tutti
MarioCPPP

On 19/08/2024 17:18, MarioCCCP wrote:
> Imvho opinion windows is preferably run inside a virtual machine. Win11
> runs very well virtualized, and does not break anything outside. Files
> can be shared among guest and host. VMWare manages this really smoothly
> (with aggressive caching and delayed committing to the network-disk).
+1
Virtual box was when I switched to it from VMware a better UI and screen
driver,
If you are a 'lnuix ' person who needs windows occasionally, VB or
VMware is the way to go,
If you need raw winders fer gaming, buy a separate machine for the job!

--
“Progress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,”

– Ludwig von Mises

Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> wrote:
> not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) wrote:
>>Fighting buggy scripts, that's hard.
>
> Those scripts are in use on millions of installations millions of
> times daily. They can hardly be unusably buggy.

Most aren't multi-boot installations. Anyway, if you accept that
writing menu.lst entries wasn't hard, why adopt a bootloader that
requires those scripts in the first place? They're just another
point of failure, and no I'm not going to be convinced against
personal experience that it's an impossible point of failure.

>>Old Grub just did
>>what you asked it to, like Syslinux/Extlinux mercifully still do.
>
> In my world, using exotic solutions without pressing reason is
> considered a technical liability.

Yes well I install Linux on personal PCs instead of Windows or
MacOS, so that battle is already completely lost in the eyes of
many.

--
__ __
#_ < |\| |< _#

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 18:18:38 +0200, MarioCCCP wrote:

> Imvho opinion windows is preferably run inside a virtual machine. Win11
> runs very well virtualized, and does not break anything outside.

I think that after XP, Microsoft wised up and prohibited running consumer
versions of Windows inside a VM.

Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
> Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
> >> Jack Strangio <jackstrangio@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> How about the part of EFI boot configuration that is store in NVRAM?
> >>
> >That doesn't change very often. Most times it will still be the same as
> >yesterday.
> >
> >I haven't found that being a problem the few times I've needed to do the
> >restoration.
>
> You obviously never had to restore because of failed hardware.
>
Certainly have. But I can count those times on the fingers of one hand. The
number of times things have died due to my stupidity or failed software would
very likely be two orders of magnitude higher.

Jack
--
Why do meteorites always land in craters?

On 8/18/24 9:51 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 21:38:23 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> For ConfigFilePhobes ... I'd still rec VBox.
>
> That’s why Xen Orchestra offers such a nice GUI.
>
> (There’s a command line behind it, so you can get to that if you want.)

Alas "Orchestra" is hardly freeware ... you PAY
for all those nice GUIs. Basically just more VMWare
at this point.

However larger commercial/govt entities might be
willing to pay and it'd be worth it.

For personal/small-biz ... KVM or VBox still seem
a better fit.

On 8/19/24 4:06 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>> On 8/19/24 2:35 AM, Marc Haber wrote:
>>> "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>> Def : "NvRAM" - Non-Volatile-Random-Access-Memory ...
>>>> the 'e-disk' you now find in every laptop and oft
>>>> even desktops these days. Most commonly "M2" but
>>>> the tech can be put in other things/formats. First
>>>> saw one in the Asus EEEPC as the main 'drive'.
>>>
>>> That terminology is totally exotic. You're probably mixing up NVMe and
>>> NVRAM.
>>
>>
>> Um ... nothing remotely "exotic" about it.
>> What cave have you been living in since 1969 ???
>> It's all the SAME THING ... just different acronyms.
>
> Get your facts straight, boy. It's not a shame to not know something.
> It's a shame to not educate yourself after being corrected.

Entitled to your opinions ... but NVRAM tech is NVRAM
tech no matter what 'brand' name they call it these
days. EXOTIC nvram exists of course ... like ferroelectric
memory chips ... but the cap is rather low, best for
microcontrollers, maybe phones.

>> Even these modern mini-boxes (search Amazon, there are a
>> huge selection of variants)
>
> If you want to have more than two ethernet ports, for example in
> network/firewall applications, the air gets thin pretty quickly.

True.

Of course that's ON-BOARD network ports ... add-on boards
with 4 ports are pretty cheap.

Oh, speaking of mini-boards, SuperMicro sells a series,
very compact (some WITH boxes) with four ports. Installed
a router/firewall on one of those and was pleased. Very
impressive little boards - had interfaces on them for
things I'd never heard of - a 'complete embedded solution'
in a 6x6 package.

> Aliexpress has more of those, but many of those come without docs, so
> it's basically luck to get it to work, and if you want to have some
> continuity in buying Aliexpress is a bad idea.

I never buy from Ali. Decided awhile back to just
get ONE nice USA Amazon acct. If they don't have
it I don't buy it. Don't wanna make my card
numbers even more accessible to the PRC. Trust
Ali as much as Ali-Baba and friends ....