https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html

Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy
administration' and terrible management are the reasons
for poor customer service at the IRS, an insider has claimed.

An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than
a decade, has spoken exclusively to DailyMail.com about
its failings, as it comes under fire for long call wait
times.

The staffer, who has worked on the customer service and IT
teams, said that managers pursued 'vanity projects' instead
of making changes which would benefit workers and taxpayers.

.. . .

Doesn't surprise me.

Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new
and great System/360. The article did not
specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.

Of interest here is that such old tech DOES
still WORK. Most of this stuff was still
discrete transistors in BIG boxes.

Yea, yea, the modern stuff is 1000s of times
faster and more compact. I think a Raspberry Pi
credit-card computer is a lot faster and more
capable. Modern stuff may not AS reliable however.

However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew
in the biz even yet come across. It's the SOFTWARE.

A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie
Dilberts LONG ago. It's GREAT software - those square-
lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD.

But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot
of biz/govt entities can't afford having the good
old standards re-created for modern hardware. Can
barely afford (or find) people who can do little
patches on what is.

So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that
60 year old hardware and software. It works, so
LEAVE IT ALONE.

Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when
I was still pretty young. The computer room was
freezing and the floor was laser-leveled for the
benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and
I mean "units", you could physically remove a
big spool of about 12" wide disks - DO wait until
they stop spinning !). There were also the boxes
with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card
and paper-tape readers.

The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in
the middle of the room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or
maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit boards with
zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a
few early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial
terminals at their desks.

Even then the machine was technically obsolete,
early PCs were already starting to come out, but
again they could not afford/dare to replace it.
50s/60s easy money had RUN OUT.

BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD
money these days maintaining all that old
software ... it's in Big Govt all the way down
to medium local biz.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net>
wrote in <kcOcnV96BcJ0yFz7nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:

> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-
reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html
>
> Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy administration'
> and terrible management are the reasons for poor customer service at the
> IRS, an insider has claimed.
>
> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade,
> has spoken exclusively to DailyMail.com about its failings, as it comes
> under fire for long call wait times.
>
> The staffer, who has worked on the customer service and IT teams, said
> that managers pursued 'vanity projects' instead of making changes which
> would benefit workers and taxpayers.
>
> . . .
>
> Doesn't surprise me.
>
> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.
>
> Of interest here is that such old tech DOES still WORK. Most of this
> stuff was still discrete transistors in BIG boxes.
>
> Yea, yea, the modern stuff is 1000s of times faster and more compact.
> I think a Raspberry Pi credit-card computer is a lot faster and more
> capable. Modern stuff may not AS reliable however.
>
> However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew in the biz even yet
> come across. It's the SOFTWARE.
>
> A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie Dilberts LONG
> ago. It's GREAT software - those square-
> lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD.
>
> But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot of biz/govt
> entities can't afford having the good old standards re-created for
> modern hardware. Can barely afford (or find) people who can do little
> patches on what is.
>
> So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that 60 year old
> hardware and software. It works, so LEAVE IT ALONE.
>
> Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still pretty
> young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was laser-leveled
> for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and I mean
> "units", you could physically remove a big spool of about 12" wide
> disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There were also the
> boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card and paper-tape
> readers.
>
> The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of the
> room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit
> boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a few
> early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at their
> desks.
>
> Even then the machine was technically obsolete,
> early PCs were already starting to come out, but again they could not
> afford/dare to replace it. 50s/60s easy money had RUN OUT.
>
> BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD money these days
> maintaining all that old software ... it's in Big Govt all the way
> down to medium local biz.

If you're so inclined to learn on your own...GNU has COBOL.

COBC(1) User Commands COBC(1)

NAME
cobc - manual page for cobc 3.1.2.0

SYNOPSIS
cobc [options]... file...

DESCRIPTION
GnuCOBOL compiler for most COBOL dialects with lots of
extensions
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Our local community college used to have a COBOL class, as it led
a software consortium that ran COBOL software on mainframes. Looks
like they retired those old systems in 2009.

--
-v

On 8/17/24 10:24 PM, vallor wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net>
> wrote in <kcOcnV96BcJ0yFz7nZ2dnZfqn_WdnZ2d@earthlink.com>:
>
>> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-
> reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html
>>
>> Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy administration'
>> and terrible management are the reasons for poor customer service at the
>> IRS, an insider has claimed.
>>
>> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade,
>> has spoken exclusively to DailyMail.com about its failings, as it comes
>> under fire for long call wait times.
>>
>> The staffer, who has worked on the customer service and IT teams, said
>> that managers pursued 'vanity projects' instead of making changes which
>> would benefit workers and taxpayers.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> Doesn't surprise me.
>>
>> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
>> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
>> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.
>>
>> Of interest here is that such old tech DOES still WORK. Most of this
>> stuff was still discrete transistors in BIG boxes.
>>
>> Yea, yea, the modern stuff is 1000s of times faster and more compact.
>> I think a Raspberry Pi credit-card computer is a lot faster and more
>> capable. Modern stuff may not AS reliable however.
>>
>> However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew in the biz even yet
>> come across. It's the SOFTWARE.
>>
>> A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie Dilberts LONG
>> ago. It's GREAT software - those square-
>> lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD.
>>
>> But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot of biz/govt
>> entities can't afford having the good old standards re-created for
>> modern hardware. Can barely afford (or find) people who can do little
>> patches on what is.
>>
>> So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that 60 year old
>> hardware and software. It works, so LEAVE IT ALONE.
>>
>> Heh ... I remember visiting a county facility when I was still pretty
>> young. The computer room was freezing and the floor was laser-leveled
>> for the benefit of the old-style disk drive units (and I mean
>> "units", you could physically remove a big spool of about 12" wide
>> disks - DO wait until they stop spinning !). There were also the
>> boxes with the spinning tapes and the obligatory card and paper-tape
>> readers.
>>
>> The "cpu chip" was about a cubic METER in size in the middle of the
>> room - DEC I think, PDP-4 or maybe PDP-7 - full of a bunch of circuit
>> boards with zillions of individual transistors and perhaps a few
>> early "chips". Workers/programmers had serial terminals at their
>> desks.
>>
>> Even then the machine was technically obsolete,
>> early PCs were already starting to come out, but again they could not
>> afford/dare to replace it. 50s/60s easy money had RUN OUT.
>>
>> BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD money these days
>> maintaining all that old software ... it's in Big Govt all the way
>> down to medium local biz.
>
> If you're so inclined to learn on your own...GNU has COBOL.
>
> COBC(1) User Commands COBC(1)
>
> NAME
> cobc - manual page for cobc 3.1.2.0
>
> SYNOPSIS
> cobc [options]... file...
>
> DESCRIPTION
> GnuCOBOL compiler for most COBOL dialects with lots of
> extensions
> _ _ _ _ _ _ _
>
> Our local community college used to have a COBOL class, as it led
> a software consortium that ran COBOL software on mainframes. Looks
> like they retired those old systems in 2009.

I'm gonna be heretical and say GNU isn't Real COBOL ... it's
just a 'C' translator. There ARE some native COBOL compilers,
even a sort of IDE, out there however.

If you're gonna do Old Systems then you HAVE to be able to set
the compiler to respect the OLD standards ... various kinds of
fields/instructions/data start at SPECIFIC PLACES ... which
corresponded with the old punch-cards. "Relaxed" more modern
COBOL/FORTRAN ... great ... but that may NOT get you anywhere
on an actual early 60s system.

I just installed a new box (little BMax) and DID install the
GNU COBOL and FORTRAN (and even 'D' and Modula-2 Just Because).
Even a FORTH compiler ... like to have all bases covered :-)

I'll skip ADA ... DID write some kinda complex-ish stuff for
ADA with self-updating lists of linked lists of linked lists ...
but the data TYPING is just TOO - had to write some 'cheat'
translator functions. Too much ... software should not
work hard AGAINST you .......

On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.

Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it
would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series

https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/
big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/

A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:

"Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull
human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is
getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might
tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could
reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on
individual medical costs."

System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in
'65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot
in '63.

On 8/17/24 11:45 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
>> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
>> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.
>
> Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it
> would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors.

Govt specs being what they are, it was PROBABLY tech at
least 5-7 years out of date.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series

The 7000 series were pretty GOOD computers, given
the state of the tech. There WERE a few competitors
however. As said, the article didn't specify.

Anyhow, clearly JUST beyond the vac-tube era since
those would be just TOO hard to maintain all this time.

> https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/
> big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/
>
> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:
>
> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull
> human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is
> getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might
> tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could
> reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on
> individual medical costs."

Visionary ... and back when they STILL understood
all the DOWNSIDE.

But note that DIDN'T HELP - what was "just easier"
for govt/biz/banking CAME TO BE.

And now Russians/Chinese have the keys to that
whole kingdom.

NOT good at all.

And I do NOT know a good work-around. What, should
I keep a briefcase full of bearer bonds in some
obscure storage facility and just assume the owners
don't rifle through the contents ???

Again, NOT good !

Frankly, I think The West is goin' DOWN - and
right when I've gotten OLD. Hyper-suck !

> System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in
> '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot
> in '63.

Which is why I suspect the 7000s.

BITS of 360 were to be had a bit earlier, but, as said,
govt contracts spend years working up their specs.

Once got a tour of a US attack sub. Their 'computer'
STILL used the big old disk-drive units where you
could remove entire spools of large disks ... early
60s tech in a boat built nearly two decades later.
Again, the govt-spec/contract process ...

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:

> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
>> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
>> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.
>
> Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it
> would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series
>
> https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/
> big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/
>
> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:
>
> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull
> human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is
> getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might
> tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could
> reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on
> individual medical costs."
>
>
> System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in
> '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot
> in '63.

I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN
class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the
cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I
remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be
oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days!
-Don-

In comp.os.linux.misc 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html
>
> Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy
> administration' and terrible management are the reasons
> for poor customer service at the IRS, an insider has claimed.
>
> ...
>
> However there's ANOTHER issue ... one guys I knew
> in the biz even yet come across. It's the SOFTWARE.

Yep, something most forget about when arguing "old computers still in
use"

> A lot of it was written in COBOL by those arrow-tie
> Dilberts LONG ago. It's GREAT software - those square-
> lookin' nerd guys were REALLY GOOD.
>
> But good software requires good MONEY ... and a lot
> of biz/govt entities can't afford having the good
> old standards re-created for modern hardware. Can
> barely afford (or find) people who can do little
> patches on what is.

Not to mention the fact that the new stuff has to produce the same
answers as the old stuff it replaces, and COBOL excels at "money
related" computing. I can only imagine how much money and time it
would take to get a crew of H1B's to recreate, likely in Java, code to
compute the same "dollar amounts" as is being computed by the old COBOL
code.

> So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that 60 year old
> hardware and software. It works, so LEAVE IT ALONE.

In theory, they should be able to move the software to newer hardware
(if they needed newer hardware in any case) by recompiling it. Sadly,
they have also likely lost the source long ago, so they are well and
truly stuck.

And if they have lost the source (likely) then they are left with
having that crew of H1B's having to reverse engineer the existing COBOL
programs to workout how to recreate them (accurate to the penny,
inclusing all edge cases). And given what I've seen from the typical
H1B govt. contract coder, not one of them could "reverse engineer" an
existing system if they were given infinite time and money to so.

followups trimmed to comp.os.linux.misc

In comp.os.linux.misc 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/yourmoney/taxes/article-13688929/IRS-worker-reveals-reasons-call-hold-tax-delays.html

A UK article discussing nothing it knows about :)

The main reasons for the delays are:
1. Tax Law change every year, the last few years big changes
have been made right before Tax Season begins. Leaving
little time for software changes and testing.
2. Funding cuts, the GOP has cut funding to such an extent that
the IRS cannot afford to audit the very rich. Never mind
upgrade systems. Granted Biden increased funding, but some
of it was cut again back due to a deal with the GOP.
3. Companies sending out Tax Documents later than the law
specifics. I am hit by this every year. I receive my
documents 1 month late, than means I cannot even start
filling out my Tax Form until April.
4. People waiting for the last minute to file their Tax (see
number 3).

For international people, US people must file their
forms by April 15.

> Decades-old computer systems 'paid for by the Kennedy
> administration' and terrible management are the reasons
> for poor customer service at the IRS, an insider has claimed.

I believe hardware has been upgraded over the years, IBM
Mainframes are very good keeping backward compatibility.

>
> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency...

I had many relatives working there, most are issues are
due to the Tax Code changing every year plus Funding.

But I heard the IRS is adding a method for you to
submit your documents in some manner and they fill
out the forms for you.

<snip>

> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new
> and great System/360. The article did not
> specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.

No kidding.

<snip>

> So, they can't afford to, don't DARE to, replace that
> 60 year old hardware and software. It works, so
> LEAVE IT ALONE.

That seems to be what is happening. BTW, some of
the software is also written in FORTRAN :)

<snip>
>
> BTW, if you're a COBOL guru you can make GOOD
> money these days maintaining all that old
> software ... it's in Big Govt all the way down
> to medium local biz.

I hear the same, New York City is another place that needs
COBOL programmers + a knowledge of business rules.

--
[t]csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
- Paraphrasing Star Wars

On 18 Aug 2024 03:45:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:
>
> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any
> numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting
> who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers
> might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations
> could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report
> on individual medical costs."

All routine nowadays. As is compliance with anti-money-laundering laws.
Which are governed by international agreements.

Also remember, the tax department (IRD or IRS or HMRC or SARS or whatever
it’s called in your country) is only concerned with collecting the proper
taxes. How you earn the money that incurs those taxes (even if through
illegal enterprises) is not its concern.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 19:54:07 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:

> 3. Companies sending out Tax Documents later than the law
> specifics.

I get my statements online, now. Don’t they do that in your country yet?

186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than
> a decade, has spoken exclusively to DailyMail

Shouldn't the Daily Mail be getting hot under the collar about HMRC
rather than the IRS?

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 19:54:07 -0000 (UTC), John McCue wrote:
>
>> 3. Companies sending out Tax Documents later than the law
>> specifics.
>
> I get my statements online, now. Don't they do that
> in your country yet?

Yes, but the final documents from my Financial Institution
is always late. This is what really happens:

1. Documents sent out and posted in Early February,
complying with the laws.
2. Revisions to these documents are sent out and posted
sometime in March.

This now happens every year. I got burnt the first time
they started the revisions thing. I got revisions after I
filed so I ignored them with fingers-crossed.

So now, I wait until April before starting doing my taxes.
Where I worked, they have a relationship with that company,
I save fees by using them.

--
csh(1) - "An elegant shell, for a more... civilized age."
- Paraphrasing Star Wars

Rich <rich@example.invalid> writes:

> In theory, they should be able to move the software to newer hardware
> (if they needed newer hardware in any case) by recompiling it.

I'm pretty sure the code in question is running on a descendant of
S/360. If that's the case, no recompile is necessary to run on modern
system Z hardware.

--
Dan Espen

In article <ligembFadkdU2@mid.individual.net>, usenet@andyburns.uk (Andy
Burns) wrote:

> Shouldn't the Daily Mail be getting hot under the collar about HMRC
> rather than the IRS?

They seem to be trying to take their distinctive brand of "journalism"
into the US market. They're following the examples of Boris Johnson and
Liz Truss, who are trying to become pundits on the US circuit, but don't
seem to be getting very far. Their accents aren't selling points on
pro-Trump media.

John

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 09:39:38 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade,
>> has spoken exclusively to DailyMail
>
> Shouldn't the Daily Mail be getting hot under the collar about HMRC
> rather than the IRS?

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no
attention to the plank in your own eye?"

Matthew 7:3

Let's ignore Rotherham and focus on the DNC fiasco...

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 02:01:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 18 Aug 2024 03:45:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:
>>
>> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
>> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any
>> numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting
>> who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market
>> computers might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity
>> organizations could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers
>> could report on individual medical costs."
>
> All routine nowadays. As is compliance with anti-money-laundering laws.
> Which are governed by international agreements.

Yeah, the surveillance state is doing fine but the flying cars predicted
in 1963 never happened and there are some guys in orbit that hope they can
thumb a ride home someday.

On 8/19/24 4:59 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 02:01:00 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 18 Aug 2024 03:45:42 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:
>>>
>>> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
>>> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any
>>> numbskull human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting
>>> who is getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market
>>> computers might tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity
>>> organizations could reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers
>>> could report on individual medical costs."
>>
>> All routine nowadays. As is compliance with anti-money-laundering laws.
>> Which are governed by international agreements.
>
> Yeah, the surveillance state is doing fine but the flying cars predicted
> in 1963 never happened and there are some guys in orbit that hope they can
> thumb a ride home someday.

I sent a mail to SpaceX urging them to paint
"Elon's Friendly Space Towing" with some hokey
little graphic on the side of the eventual
rescue capsule :-)

As for the flying cars - probably best that they
never worked ... there'd be flaming junk falling
from the skies almost constantly. People suck
even at 2-D driving.

(Looks like there's no such thing as anti-gravity
alas ... it'd require unbending spacetime)

As for the money-laundering stuff ... fear not ...
all the players will find work-arounds almost
overnight. Some loopholes will be PROVIDED by
those who drafted the laws and those who write
the spy software. They'll get their cut of the
action in return :-)

On 8/19/24 4:39 AM, Andy Burns wrote:
> 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than
>> a decade, has spoken exclusively to DailyMail
>
> Shouldn't the Daily Mail be getting hot under the collar about HMRC
> rather than the IRS?

They dig up any dirt - celebrity preferably, but
they're flexible.

On 8/19/24 4:56 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 09:39:38 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:
>
>> 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> An IRS employee, who has worked at the agency for more than a decade,
>>> has spoken exclusively to DailyMail
>>
>> Shouldn't the Daily Mail be getting hot under the collar about HMRC
>> rather than the IRS?
>
>
> "Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no
> attention to the plank in your own eye?"
>
> Matthew 7:3
>
> Let's ignore Rotherham and focus on the DNC fiasco...

Can barely stand to visit THAT - the stench of vomit
and bovine offal is too much :-)

Anyway ... we seem to have drifted rather off
"computer stuff" and the politics thereof ....

Being an old guy, I do get a certain satisfaction
in hearing some of that dusty Big Iron is still
doing its job after all this time.

And it will until the very end - as said, they
can't afford or DARE to replace What Works. It'll
have to be an emergency, and the replacement junk
will be screwed for YEARS.

On 8/18/24 11:27 AM, Don_from_AZ wrote:
> rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 22:01:12 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm ... what was good in the very early 60s ?
>>> IBM had a number of offerings, esp it's new and great System/360. The
>>> article did not specify WHAT 'ancient' computers.
>>
>> Depending on how literally you want to take 'Kennedy administration' it
>> would be a 7000 hopefully. At least that one had transistors.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_700/7000_series
>>
>> https://web.archive.org/web/20200119162242/http://blog.modernmechanix.com/
>> big-brother-7074-is-watching-you/
>>
>> A contemporary article with a chilling vision of the future:
>>
>> "Eventually, large corporations could also be plugged into the system.
>> Computers thousands of miles apart could talk taxes without any numbskull
>> human interference. Banks could be hooked in, too, reporting who is
>> getting interest payments. Real-estate and stock-market computers might
>> tattle on who is making money. Machines in charity organizations could
>> reveal amounts of donations. And hospital computers could report on
>> individual medical costs."
>>
>>
>> System/360 was announced in '64 but RPI had one of the first 360/30s in
>> '65 when I took my first programming class in FORTRAN IV. Kennedy was shot
>> in '63.
>
> I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN
> class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the
> cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I
> remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be
> oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days!

HA ! Boy does THAT seem familiar !!! :-)

Didn't hurt to bring gifts for the guys in charge
of the 'bin' either ... they'd do your cards first.

The gods in the freezing-cold room with all the real
hardware ... you never got to talk to them.

On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 23:59:48 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/18/24 11:27 AM, Don_from_AZ wrote:
>> I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN
>> class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the
>> cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I
>> remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be
>> oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days!
>
>
> HA ! Boy does THAT seem familiar !!! :-)
>
> Didn't hurt to bring gifts for the guys in charge of the 'bin' either
> ... they'd do your cards first.
>
> The gods in the freezing-cold room with all the real hardware ... you
> never got to talk to them.

The computer building was the only place at RPI that I remember having A/
C. It was new compared to everything else. Eventually the computers were
moved to a chapel which is fitting in a 'A Canticle for Leibowitz' sort of
way.

https://archives.rpi.edu/institute-history/building-histories/chapel-
voorhees-computing-center

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> writes:

> On Mon, 19 Aug 2024 23:59:48 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/18/24 11:27 AM, Don_from_AZ wrote:
>>> I was at RPI from '64 to '68 working on my BSEE. Took that FORTRAN
>>> class. Code your program on coding sheets, punch it onto cards, put the
>>> cards into the bin for processing, come back later for the printout. I
>>> remember a sign on the input bin to remind you how the cards had to be
>>> oriented: 'TOPLEFUP' (top left, face up). Ah, those were the days!
>>
>>
>> HA ! Boy does THAT seem familiar !!! :-)
>>
>> Didn't hurt to bring gifts for the guys in charge of the 'bin' either
>> ... they'd do your cards first.
>>
>> The gods in the freezing-cold room with all the real hardware ... you
>> never got to talk to them.
>
> The computer building was the only place at RPI that I remember having A/
> C. It was new compared to everything else. Eventually the computers were
> moved to a chapel which is fitting in a 'A Canticle for Leibowitz' sort of
> way.
>
> https://archives.rpi.edu/institute-history/building-histories/chapel-
> voorhees-computing-center

Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most
of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! For a couple of years I
lived down on River St and had to walk up the hill past West Hall and
clear to the other side of campus to work at the Freshman dining hall
for breakfast at about 6 AM. One of the banks downtown had a
time/temperature display, and I remember one week straight where it
never got above -20F when I walked by.

That's why I live in Arizona!
-Don-

On 2024-08-20, Don_from_AZ <djatechNOSPAM@comcast.net.invalid> wrote:

> Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most
> of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! For a couple of years I
> lived down on River St and had to walk up the hill past West Hall and
> clear to the other side of campus to work at the Freshman dining hall
> for breakfast at about 6 AM. One of the banks downtown had a
> time/temperature display, and I remember one week straight where it
> never got above -20F when I walked by.
>
> That's why I live in Arizona!

There's this myth - fortunately fading now - that the purpose of
air conditioning is not to make a room comfortable, but to make
it COLD. If you have to wear a thick sweater in August, the air
conditioning is being overdone. Myths of operators storing beer
under the false floor notwithstanding, there's no reason to keep
the computer room uncomfortably cold. (I've never worked with
cryogenic systems, but presumably they insulate the parts that
have to be really cold and leave the rest of the room alone.)

I used to get into "thermostat wars" in some shops. I would
surreptitiously sneak the thermostat up to a comfortable level;
the machine didn't mind as long as the temperature was reasonably
cool and - most importantly - steady. The regular staff would
discover the modified setting, have a fit, and turn it back down
to its original arctic setting.

At one PPOE we didn't even think we had a thermostat; the air
conditioning always ran full bore, and we'd turn it off at the
end of the day along with the computer. One Friday evening,
the last person to leave (me) forgot to turn off the air
conditioner. When we returned on Monday morning the room
was so cold you could almost see your breath condensing.
The oil in the disk drives' hydraulic actuators had congealed,
and the heads wouldn't load. We had to let everything spin
for a couple of hours until things warmed up enough to run.
Eventually I did find the thermostat; it was in the crawl
space under the machine room (and below the real floor under
the false floor). It was turned all the way down. I set it
to something sane, and life was good - or at least better.

At another shop, the computer shared a tiny room with a huge
air conditioner. Everything was turned off at the end of the
day, and turned on again the next morning. The machine was
quite flaky. One day a CE came in to look at it, and when
he pulled one of the circuit boards, a VLSI chip fell out.
The thermal cycling had caused it to walk right out of its
socket. We started leaving everything on 24/7, and the
machine ran reliably after that.

It's not just computers that get thermal shock - witness
the number of summertime colds that result from going
back and forth between blazing hot weather outdoors and
brutally air-conditioned buildings.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 07:47:18 -0700, Don_from_AZ wrote:

> Maybe during the summer sessions air conditioning was useful, but most
> of the year in Troy what you needed was HEAT! For a couple of years I
> lived down on River St and had to walk up the hill past West Hall and
> clear to the other side of campus to work at the Freshman dining hall
> for breakfast at about 6 AM. One of the banks downtown had a
> time/temperature display, and I remember one week straight where it
> never got above -20F when I walked by.

Preach to the choir... I grew up in a small town outside of Troy and went
to Troy High School. RPI was basically across the street so it was more of
the same.

My friends and I tended to hang out in the cafeteria in West Hole between
classes. It was a joy climbing back up to Ricketts, Green, or wherever.

I wonder if they still install those wooden risers on the stone stairs to
try to prevent too many fatalities on ice covered granite? No wonder why
hockey was the only sport that attracted much interest; ice was the
natural state.

When I was in high school my father and I visited Clarkson during the
Christmas break. We didn't see dry pavement past Lake George. I noted the
freshmen dorms were about a mile from campus and crossed Clarkson off the
list full ride scholarship or no.

Of course, being young and foolish, hiking up some Adirondack peak in the
winter with the Outing Club was considered fun. Then we'd s[end quality
time on the Playhouse fiberglassing the wreckage of the snowshoes.

Yeah, Troy... The last time I was there was 2004 and it didn't improve
over the years.

On Tue, 20 Aug 2024 18:28:49 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> I used to get into "thermostat wars" in some shops. I would
> surreptitiously sneak the thermostat up to a comfortable level; the
> machine didn't mind as long as the temperature was reasonably cool and -
> most importantly - steady. The regular staff would discover the
> modified setting, have a fit, and turn it back down to its original
> arctic setting.

I worked at a company that is in an old sugar beet factory. Like a lot of
the repurposed mill buildings it is visually attractive, lots of exposed
brick, high ceilings with wooden rafters, and mezzanines. It also has no
insulation and is a nightmare to heat/cool. I think every HVAC company in
town has taken a shot at setting up zone controls with limited success.

Flannel shirts in August were typical at least for the people on the first
floor. The poor suckers on the second floor trended toward shorts and t-
shirts. Come winter and the tables turned. We'd be wearing short sleeve
shirts and the guys upstairs were in parkas.