On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:23:59 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/7/24 11:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:39:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>>>
>>> Alas I don't think M$ is motivated.
>>
>> That’s why it’s time to move on.
>
> Or be creative ... DBs can be split up into <2gb sections.

That’s why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth
nothing.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:33:06 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/7/24 11:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access was the superior way
>>> ...
>>
>> LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL
>> view, and table view, if you need those.
>
> Decent FORMS are generally more foolproof for employees than the
> 'sheet' format.

Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.

> Access let you attach a lot of code - ie
> "idiot/error-protection" - to each box on the form. Never checked if
> Libre is so flexible.

LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.

On Mon, 8/12/2024 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:28:19 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/7/24 11:11 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...
>>
>> Use mnemonics as much as possible ... like "P:\" for the Payroll
>> stuff.
>
> Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
> names.
>

The volumes have labels and letters.

My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".

Disk Management has an Explore option, which allows you to view the
labels, see the item you want, then... jump from DM to Explorer and
view the contents as a File Manager. This means you can see a label,
know what the volume is, then go visit the volume in the platform File Manager.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/J44YFQBp/labels-disk-management.gif

Now, if I use Linux on the same drive, this happens.
If I click to mount, the label is used by the Automounter to make a name.

mint@mint:~$ df
Filesystem 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
tmpfs 13127264 1612 13125652 1% /run
/dev/sr0 2995344 2995344 0 100% /cdrom
/cow 65636304 29904 65606400 1% /
tmpfs 65636304 0 65636304 0% /dev/shm
tmpfs 5120 4 5116 1% /run/lock
tmpfs 65636304 4 65636300 1% /tmp
tmpfs 13127260 132 13127128 1% /run/user/999
/dev/sda7 715167740 650159392 65008348 91% /media/mint/SHARED
/dev/sda3 124493820 72753928 51739892 59% /media/mint/W11HOME
/dev/sda5 135264344 57284904 77979440 43% /media/mint/WIN10AMD
mint@mint:~$

I could CD to /media/mint/W11HOME if I wanted and work there.

I'm not "glued to the letters". The labels work just fine.

Paul

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:16:19 -0400, Paul wrote:

> On Mon, 8/12/2024 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
>> names.
>>
>>
> The volumes have labels and letters.
>
> My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".

But you can’t use that to refer to your files, can you?

On 8/12/24 4:41 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:33:06 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/7/24 11:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access was the superior way
>>>> ...
>>>
>>> LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL
>>> view, and table view, if you need those.
>>
>> Decent FORMS are generally more foolproof for employees than the
>> 'sheet' format.
>
> Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.

Well, never say "naturally" - what's in v9.10 might not
be in v9.11 :-) However LibreOffice IS a great suite
regardless.

>> Access let you attach a lot of code - ie
>> "idiot/error-protection" - to each box on the form. Never checked if
>> Libre is so flexible.
>
> LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.

Python is very good - and maybe less BS than VBA.
VBA did cover it all ... but it got kinda ugly.

ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether
Access is still worth it. IMHO, yes. More than enough
power/capability for a LOT of small biz/etc needs and
the price is fair and the product is WELL-refined by
now. LibreOffice is also good - and cheaper - but I've
never used it for extensive DB development so I can't
say if it's equally capable.

On 8/12/24 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:28:19 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/7/24 11:11 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...
>>
>> Use mnemonics as much as possible ... like "P:\" for the Payroll
>> stuff.
>
> Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
> names.

Aww ... CHEATING ! :-)

Anyway, M$ is M$ ... if you want letter drives then
you get enough of them for almost any need. If you
don't want letter drives then there are other approaches.

On 8/12/24 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
>> very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
>> "solutions".
>
> Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.

Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of
having dumped most of their IT people in favor of
'cloud' and 3rd-party management - have a "M$ ONLY"
policy. Libre is considered alien, poison, evil.
"Everybody Knows" M$ is best and, hey, EVERYBODY
uses it so YOU should too !

The last place I worked, under enlightened new
management, started heading that way FAST. So
I deployed my parachute ... bye bye suckers ....

With luck they bought SolarWinds and CrowdStrike :-)

On Mon, 8/12/2024 10:10 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:16:19 -0400, Paul wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 8/12/2024 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
>>> names.
>>>
>>>
>> The volumes have labels and letters.
>>
>> My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".
>
> But you can’t use that to refer to your files, can you?
>

In a GUI oriented system, when am I referring to files that way ?
The user is supposed to be using the mouse.

Power users resort to command line, and they know the mapping
from their own W11Home and C:\users\username.

I use %userprofile% all the time, instead of C:\users\username.
You can define your own environment variables if you want. There's
a panel for that. You can redefine %temp% that way.

cd \ # Return to root level of partition, C:\ perhaps
# I'm doing this now, just so I can demonstrate that this works.

cd %userprofile% # Home directory of my account, this variable works in Command Prompt

cd /d %userprofile% # This works better so a "cd \" step is not needed.

The purpose of reviewing the disk layout with Disk Management,
is so you know the "current mapping", like if you just plugged
in your backup drive, and you had not forced a letter on it.
If my backup drive was forced to T:\ , then the next time I plug
it in (and it has a serial number), the ENUM is remembered and
it will be T:\ again. There can be conflicts with already assigned
letters, and there are tools for handling that better. But generally
speaking, users select higher drive letters for the transients.
You don't make your backup drive D: , because it is highly
likely you would eventually have a problem by doing that. T: is safer.

You also don't put optical drives down low. They go in the middle of
the letters.

But on my archive machine (almost all letters used), there is no
room for clever assignments any more.

Paul

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 12:53:22 -0400, Paul wrote:

> On Mon, 8/12/2024 10:10 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 14:16:19 -0400, Paul wrote:
>>
>>> My C:\ drive has a label of "W11HOME".
>>
>> But you can’t use that to refer to your files, can you?
>>
> In a GUI oriented system, when am I referring to files that way ?

Via the usual way: look for the name in your list of volumes, point and
click.

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> ... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost any
> need.

Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them to
mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:31:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/12/24 4:41 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.
>
> Well, never say "naturally" - what's in v9.10 might not be in v9.11

I know regressions happen a lot with proprietary software: “let’s save
that feature for the Pro version”. Less common in Open Source, though:
stuff only gets removed when nobody cares about it.

>> LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.
>
> ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether Access is still
> worth it.

Given that LibreOffice does it all, and is available for less cost and
with fewer restrictions, the answer has to be no.

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/12/24 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
>>> very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
>>> "solutions".
>>
>> Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.
>
> Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
> most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.

That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they
go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company.

Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of
the economic gene pool.

In article <v9gk4h$30as$2@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:

> Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use
> them to mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on
> Linux.

There is a shortage of other filesystem types in practical usage on
Windows. FAT and exFAT get used for (micro-)sd cards and USB sticks, but
nobody with any sense at all uses them on hard disks or SSDs.

John

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 23:21 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:

> In article <v9gk4h$30as$2@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
> D'Oliveiro) wrote:
>
>> Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them
>> to mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
>
> There is a shortage of other filesystem types in practical usage on
> Windows.

Whatever happened to ReFS? Seems like Microsoft has given up on creating a
next-generation filesystem for Windows ...

On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/12/24 4:38 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
>>>> very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
>>>> "solutions".
>>>
>>> Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.
>>
>> Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
>> most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
>> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
>
> That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
> cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
> choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they
> go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company.
>
> Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of
> the economic gene pool.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On 2024-08-14, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:

Oops, lost my response. Let's try again...

> On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
>>> most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
>>> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
>>
>> That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
>> cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
>> choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they
>> go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company.
>>
>> Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of
>> the economic gene pool.

Sounds like it's time for the re-education squad to pay a few visits.

https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | We'll go down in history as the
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | first society that wouldn't save
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | itself because it wasn't cost-
/ \ if you read it the right way. | effective. -- Kurt Vonnegut

On Tue, 8/13/2024 5:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> ... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost any
>> need.
>
> Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them to
> mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
>

Is that a practical consideration ? No.

If I had 128 partitions on a GPT disk, it would not
be a problem for them to all be NTFS. I would still
get the usage of the storage device.

And the mount point thing, might not consider Dokan or IFS items.

I used to run EXT2IFS on Windows XP, but that stopped once I
realized how little of EXT the thing understood. I would guess
for the person making it, it was a novelty, because they never
expanded it for later EXT flavors. There are likely to be commercial
offerings today, to do that sort of thing.

Paul

On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 23:28:01 -0400, Paul wrote:

> On Tue, 8/13/2024 5:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>
>>> ... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost
>>> any need.
>>
>> Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them
>> to mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
>>
> Is that a practical consideration ? No.
>
> If I had 128 partitions on a GPT disk, it would not be a problem for
> them to all be NTFS. I would still get the usage of the storage device.

NTFS is showing its age in some ways, though.

On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 02:50:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/

What’s hilarious about that is it takes much longer than an hour for
Windows to update itself
<https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/02/01/2056211>.

On 8/13/24 5:46 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:31:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/12/24 4:41 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Naturally, LibreOffice Base supports all that as well.
>>
>> Well, never say "naturally" - what's in v9.10 might not be in v9.11
>
> I know regressions happen a lot with proprietary software: “let’s save
> that feature for the Pro version”. Less common in Open Source, though:
> stuff only gets removed when nobody cares about it.
>
>>> LibreOffice allows for more modern scripting languages, like Python.
>>
>> ANYway ... the most common subthread here is whether Access is still
>> worth it.
>
> Given that LibreOffice does it all, and is available for less cost and
> with fewer restrictions, the answer has to be no

I'll have to get further into it ... but meanwhile
I will not just assume "LibreOffice Does It All".

They DO try - cudo's to them ... but it's still a
constantly evolving situation. M$ keeps changing
things - mostly to throw off competitors rather
than for basic function IMHO.

Meanwhile, I'll still say Access was one of the
enlightened products of M$ ... "good enough",
and cheap enough, for a LOT of uses.

As I said elsewhere, I've writ a few full Access
apps - one for commercial sale - in the past.
I found it, plus VBA, more than adequate for any
common purpose.

TODAY, DBs tend to be much LARGER - full of embedded
pix/video/GIS - so Access limits may NOT suffice depending.
There ARE tricks to handle Big Data, but you kinda have
to design properly from start.

But, again depending, Access MAY be completely adequate
and 'standard'/'established'. M$ HAS done SOME good
over the years ... alas eclipsed by all the BAD ....

Modern SQL flat-file DBs ... DON'T like them much.
Gimme something more like PICK ... multi-value
and WYSIWYG form design. OpenInsight is a fair
reference ... Advanced Revelation before that.
This is MY "ideal", my "how it should be".

On 8/13/24 10:50 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2024-08-14, Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> wrote:
>
> Oops, lost my response. Let's try again...
>
>> On 2024-08-13, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:51:25 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> Note that a lot of companies - mostly as a result of having dumped
>>>> most of their IT people in favor of 'cloud' and 3rd-party management
>>>> - have a "M$ ONLY" policy.
>>>
>>> That would be “a diminishing number of companies”. Those that deliberately
>>> cripple their own competitiveness by restricting their technological
>>> choices are more likely to come a cropper in the marketplace. Either they
>>> go out of business, or they get acquired by some more successful company.
>>>
>>> Either way, the legacy Microsoft technologies gradually get phased out of
>>> the economic gene pool.
>
> Sounds like it's time for the re-education squad to pay a few visits.
>
> https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/

M$, and it's lawyers & suckers, have entirely different
ideas - they WILL press, hard, for M$ dominance.

Technical superiority won't COUNT in most situations.
M$ is - by effort/propaganda - THE de-facto standard.
Doesn't matter how much it sucks.

This is the REALITY.

In the END M$ will absorb/destroy Linux - so we'd
better have a good REPLACEMENT. Just sayin'

On 8/13/24 11:36 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 02:50:58 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> https://www.sandraandwoo.com/2016/06/09/0793-an-offer-you-cant-refuse-ww/
>
> What’s hilarious about that is it takes much longer than an hour for
> Windows to update itself
> <https://tech.slashdot.org/story/22/02/01/2056211>.

Try a "rollling release" Linux like TumbleWeed
or Manjaro :-)

On Tue, 8/13/2024 11:29 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 23:28:01 -0400, Paul wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 8/13/2024 5:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 01:33:36 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... if you want letter drives then you get enough of them for almost
>>>> any need.
>>>
>>> Mount points only work on NTFS volumes, though. So you cannot use them
>>> to mix and match other filesystem types, the way you can on Linux.
>>>
>> Is that a practical consideration ? No.
>>
>> If I had 128 partitions on a GPT disk, it would not be a problem for
>> them to all be NTFS. I would still get the usage of the storage device.
>
> NTFS is showing its age in some ways, though.
>

What way would that be ?

You can make your filename complete with Hungarian characters (punctuation).

Filenames/paths can be much longer than 253 characters. There is an option
you can switch on for that. The implication is, they actually tested it :-)

NTFS still has TXF (while deprecated, my backup software still uses it).
That's an atomic commit option.

NTFS has had New Compression added as a reparse point. That leaves
Old Compression still as a feature. Linux cannot read New Compression (why they did it???) .

How you extend files is a bit janky. EXTn has it beat there.
You can "run out of resources" via a test case that only uses
a single 50-60GB test file. It did not run out of resources
(not out of memory). It's because the extensions to do indirection
for things, isn't very fancy.

ReFS was supposed to be an improved file system, but it too is
deprecated and an existing ReFS partition is likely to still mount
as expected. The "format" command still seems to have an option for it.

/A:size Overrides the default allocation unit size. Default settings are strongly recommended for general use.
ReFS supports 4096, 64K.

NTFS supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K, 128K, 256K, 512K, 1M, 2M. (<=64K is backward compatible!)
^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ ^^^ (don't use these)

FAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K, (128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes).

FAT32 supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K, (128K, 256K for sector size > 512 bytes)

exFAT supports 512, 1024, 2048, 4096, 8192, 16K, 32K, 64K, 128K, 256K, 512K, 1M, 2M, 4M, 8M, 16M, 32M.

I can't remember now, how you do a UDF disk drive.

Paul

In article <v9go5j$3q64$1@dont-email.me>, ldo@nz.invalid (Lawrence
D'Oliveiro) wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Aug 2024 23:21 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:
> > There is a shortage of other filesystem types in practical usage
> > on Windows.
> Whatever happened to ReFS? Seems like Microsoft has given up on
> creating a next-generation filesystem for Windows ...

Looks like ReFS is still in development, but people aren't deploying it
much. My employer uses NetApp filers in preference to Windows fileservers,
since they have very good RAID and operate well with both Windows and
Linux. They work well with other Unix-like systems, too, but very few
parts of the company use macOS, or any other Unix-ish OS.

NTFS, like ext3 and ext4, is showing its age by some standards, but still
works well. The drive letters problem on Windows is readily solved by
Microsoft's Distributed File System, which seems weird at first, but
works OK.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_File_System_(Microsoft)>

John

On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 09:19 +0100 (BST), John Dallman wrote:

> NTFS, like ext3 and ext4, is showing its age by some standards, but
> still works well.

Either one of those offers better performance than NTFS, though.

> The drive letters problem on Windows is readily solved
> by Microsoft's Distributed File System, which seems weird at first, but
> works OK.
>
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributed_File_System_(Microsoft)>

Interesting. So to run it you need Windows Server (expensive), or Samba
(free).

The irony of needing a *nix system of some kind to get around a Windows
limitation is ... amusing.