On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:39:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>
> Alas I don't think M$ is motivated.

That’s why it’s time to move on.

On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access
> was the superior way ...

LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL view,
and table view, if you need those.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:38:00 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>
>> I think it's one of Microsoft's greatest achievements ...
>
> Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the kind
> of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...

Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
comes close to filling. Many, many a small business is held together by an
Access database or app.

Problem for MS is that so many people are dependent on that they can't
abandon it and there's no real up-sell path either.

In article <v90pqf$3cs1v$2@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote...
>
> Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the kind
> of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
>
>

I think that would depend on which team you ask!

--

Phil, London

On 08/08/2024 12:19, Philip Herlihy wrote:
> In article <v90pqf$3cs1v$2@dont-email.me>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote...
>>
>> Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the kind
>> of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
>>
>>
>
> I think that would depend on which team you ask!
>

Well, it is obviously behind Excel, Windows OS, Outlook, etc.

But..., In the past things were different, we didn't have 1001 different
tools to persist data in a formatted way. Big databases Oracle, Sybase
were slow, and you probably had to go through a tortuous DB admin
process, to get it setup, and for every schema change.

MS access was just there, you could knock up a DB, squirt shitloads of
data into it really quickly. It used to lock up randomly, but on the
whole it was OK. In code, it was just a SQL DB, you could examine data
outside the app. It did what we wanted. I think people forget how shit
the world used to be. Microsoft even modified SQL Server to let it run
in app, like Access, because it was so useful.

Now we have sqlite there isn't much point, but it was good back in the day.

On 8/8/24 03:50 AM, Chris wrote:
> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
> comes close to filling.
I liked Dbase. I wrote many a program for it to dump stats for management. Silly stats, but you
know management they like that stuff.
--
Linux Mint 21.3, Cinnamon 6.0.4, Kernel 5.15.0-117-generic
Al

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
> comes close to filling. Many, many a small business is held together by
> an Access database or app.

A ranger at one of the national parks wrote a whole records management app
using Access. I guess he was bored during the winter season.I was
impressed.

I've pulled data from Access but it was just another ODBC/DNS connection.
I'd never seen a working app.

Big Al <alan@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 8/8/24 03:50 AM, Chris wrote:
>> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
>> comes close to filling.
> I liked Dbase. I wrote many a program for it to dump stats for
> management. Silly stats, but you
> know management they like that stuff.

Looks good. Expensive though.

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 13:21:15 +0100, Pancho wrote:

> Now we have sqlite there isn't much point, but it was good back in the
> day.

SQLite has to be the world’s most popular DBMS. You very likely have a
copy right next to you, in your mobile phone.

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:38:00 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>>
>>> I think it's one of Microsoft's greatest achievements ...
>>
>> Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the
>> kind of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
>
> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
> comes close to filling.

Make that past tense. It isn’t true any more.

On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 10:43:39 -0400, Big Al wrote:

> I liked Dbase.

Ah, from the days before SQL became de rigueur ...

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 12:38:00 +0100, Philip Herlihy wrote:
>>>
>>>> I think it's one of Microsoft's greatest achievements ...
>>>
>>> Calling Access “one of Microsoft’s greatest achievements” ... not the
>>> kind of “praise” they would find flattering, I think ...
>>
>> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
>> comes close to filling.
>
> Make that past tense. It isn’t true any more.

Do you have examples?

On Fri, 9 Aug 2024 06:29:25 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>
>>> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing
>>> else comes close to filling.
>>
>> Make that past tense. It isn’t true any more.
>
> Do you have examples?

Look at LibreOffice Base. Not only does it have its own DBMS, but it can
also use a range of other DBMSes as back-ends, such as MySQL/MariaDB and
SQLite. Either one of those has capabilities beyond Microsoft Access.

On 09/08/2024 02:15, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 13:21:15 +0100, Pancho wrote:
>
>> Now we have sqlite there isn't much point, but it was good back in the
>> day.
>
> SQLite has to be the world’s most popular DBMS. You very likely have a
> copy right next to you, in your mobile phone.

Yeah, I meant MS Access was good back in the day. For reasons similar to
why SQLite is so popular now.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday (GMT):
> On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
>>>> the years and it was quite capable.
>>>
>>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>>
>> 2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
>
> Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
> anybody”.

Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

candycanearter07 <candycanearter07@candycanearter07.nomail.afraid> writes:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday (GMT):
> > On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >
> >
> > Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
> > anybody”.
>
>
> Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.

But will 676 drives really be enough?

Jack
--
There was this old lady who demanded that the
police arrest her next-door neighbor because
he kept whistling obscene songs.

On Sun, 8/11/2024 1:30 AM, candycanearter07 wrote:
> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday (GMT):
>> On Wed, 07 Aug 2024 22:30:18 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-08-07, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 02:02:57 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> As for the 'limits' of Access ... I developed a few DBs using it over
>>>>> the years and it was quite capable.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>>>
>>> 2GB ought to be enough for anybody. :-)
>>
>> Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
>> anybody”.
>
>
> Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.
>

There is a mechanism. Mount points.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/assign-a-mount-point-folder-path-to-a-drive

Windows is full of tricks. All it needs is... documentation.

Paul

On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 05:30:03 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 22:44 this Wednesday
> (GMT):
>
>> Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
>> anybody”.
>
>
> Actually, I think that it will start naming drives AA:, AB:, etc.

Not gonna happen. Will break backward compatibility.

On Sun, 11 Aug 2024 04:15:09 -0400, Paul wrote:

> There is a mechanism. Mount points.
>
> https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-server/storage/disk-management/assign-a-mount-point-folder-path-to-a-drive

Windows Server only?

On 8/7/24 11:12 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:39:15 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/7/24 2:45 AM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Sure, if you think 2GB is enough for a database.
>>
>> Alas I don't think M$ is motivated.
>
> That’s why it’s time to move on.

Or be creative ... DBs can be split up into
<2gb sections.

Also, for many interests in the "Access" range,
2gb may be All They Need. Don't throw away
perfectly good/refined solutions - just use
them where most appropriate.

On 8/7/24 11:11 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:44:32 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> On 8/7/24 6:44 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> Microsoft still thinks that “26 drive letters ought to be enough for
>>> anybody”.
>>
>> With 16tb drives these days ... yea.
>
> Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...

Use mnemonics as much as possible ... like "P:\" for
the Payroll stuff.

Most employees will only deal with a FEW mapped
drives anyway, ones relevant to their jobs.
Indeed you don't WANT to set them up for EVERYTHING.

On 8/7/24 11:13 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Aug 2024 21:53:08 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>
>> The handy default WYSIWYG form builder in Access
>> was the superior way ...
>
> LibreOffice has quite a nice WYSIWYG form builder. As well as an SQL view,
> and table view, if you need those.

Decent FORMS are generally more foolproof for employees
than the 'sheet' format. Access let you attach a lot of
code - ie "idiot/error-protection" - to each box on the
form. Never checked if Libre is so flexible.

In my experiences ... idiot-proofing generally occupies
a good third to half of the code associated with every
prompt. How many ways CAN they get it wrong - and THEN
what ??? :-)

On 8/8/24 1:42 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 8 Aug 2024 07:50:31 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> Am no fan of access, but to be fair to MS it fills a niche nothing else
>> comes close to filling. Many, many a small business is held together by
>> an Access database or app.
>
> A ranger at one of the national parks wrote a whole records management app
> using Access. I guess he was bored during the winter season.I was
> impressed.
>
> I've pulled data from Access but it was just another ODBC/DNS connection.
> I'd never seen a working app.

Access has been around for a LONG time - and is
WELL refined. It is very capable and can be far
more user/admin-friendly than today's "solutions".

Yes, it IS "limited", the old DOS/WIN limits for
the most part, but depending on the use that
may not be relevant. Smart set-up can reduce the
impact of those 'limitations'.

I wrote a few full Access DBs in the past - even
sold one. Once you figure out the "VBA" you can
do sophisticated things despite it being a low-
cost DB.

Before Access there was Advanced Revelation - an
implementation of PICK-OS. Again you could set
up WYSIWYG (text) forms with unlimited IQ and even
write functions that greatly outperformed the "SQL"
based stuff. LOVE multi-value fields - the best
way to rep many kinds of data. Most of my custom
apps since then, 'C'/Pascal/Python/etc, always
used MV fields - beats the hell out of installing
and interfacing some big clunky SQL DB !

BTW ... you can STILL buy AREV ... about $300 ...
though there's no official support anymore. Think
you have to run it in DosBox or VirtualBox alas
since there was some 16-bit code.

(note : MV fields are super-easy to write and
read ... but EDITING can be a thing since you
need some sort of def describing exactly HOW
the fields are set up ... no "general rule"
I've ever been able to work out)

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 01:06:56 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> Access has been around for a LONG time - and is WELL refined. It is
> very capable and can be far more user/admin-friendly than today's
> "solutions".

Still left in the dust by the more versatile LibreOffice Base, though.

On Mon, 12 Aug 2024 00:28:19 -0400, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 8/7/24 11:11 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Trying to remember what the “E:” drive or “Z:” drive is for ...
>
> Use mnemonics as much as possible ... like "P:\" for the Payroll
> stuff.

Or better still, use a more modern OS that allows for more descriptive
names.