On 12/13/24 7:25 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:13:16 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> The AT&T PC clone (itself a rebranded Olivetti machine) was an 8086.
>> That was my first exposure to the IBM PC compatible world, an AT&T PC
>> clone running the 8086. While one /could/ measure the performance
>> difference in benchmarks, in real world usage it was not markedly
>> 'faster' than an 8088 based system (i.e., the 20MB hard disk was the
>> same performance for both, and its sluggishness was what one spent most
>> of one's time waiting upon).
>
> Then there was the best of both worlds NEC V20.
>
> https://hackaday.com/2020/07/10/an-nec-v20-for-two-processors-in-one-sbc/
>
> That one must have really chafed Intel's butt, a pin compatible drop in a
> little faster that the 8088 and, wait for it, we had a few transistors
> left over so it emulates the 8080 too. No wonder Intel sued.

Put a V20 into an IBM Portable Computer once. It
was a *little bit* faster - but as soon as you
had to access anything on the floppy, well ....

On 2024-12-14, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:16:21 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> However, I don't have any of the datasheets for the 432.....
>
> Digging into the bottom shelf behind the 3 1/4" floppies I don't either.

3 1/4? Is that somewhere between 3 1/2 and 5 1/4? Or was there another
format that didn't make it? I know there were a few.

> I vaguely remembered a bunch of data books but they're all National
> Semiconductor. Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out.
> This ain't the Internet Archives.

Make sure it's there first. If not, scan it and upload it to Bitsavers.
I saw some National Semiconductors stuff there, but maybe you have
something they could use.

> I did have Intel data books and remembered the pages for the 432 with a
> 'Preliminary' stamp.

Definitely sounds like Bitsavers material. I didn't find any 432 stuff.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 2024-12-14, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:

> On 12/13/24 11:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> 10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
>>>> question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
>>>
>>> The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
>>>
>> A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what you
>> want...

But if you try sometime... you get what you need...

> NOOOOOO !!! WAAAAAHH !!!
>
> https://scitechdaily.com/light-speed-ai-mits-ultrafast-photonic-processor-delivers-extreme-efficiency/
>
> Sounds great but I think it's just a lab-bench project
> at this point, NOT a big powerful 'chip'.
>
> There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
> We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna
> fly on a plane structurally calculated with 92%
> accuracy ?

*cough*Boeing*cough*

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 22:20:45 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
> We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna fly on a plane
> structurally calculated with 92%
> accuracy ?

Considering neural networks tend to be stochastic they should work well
together :)

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 05:10:28 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-14, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/13/24 11:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100 D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
>>>>> question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
>>>>
>>>> The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x
>>>> *more...?*
>>>>
>>> A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what
>>> you want...
>
> But if you try sometime... you get what you need...
>
>> NOOOOOO !!! WAAAAAHH !!!
>>
>> https://scitechdaily.com/light-speed-ai-mits-ultrafast-photonic-
processor-delivers-extreme-efficiency/
>>
>> Sounds great but I think it's just a lab-bench project at this
>> point, NOT a big powerful 'chip'.
>>
>> There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
>> We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna fly on a plane
>> structurally calculated with 92% accuracy ?
>
> *cough*Boeing*cough*

That would be like my college statistics course. QA costs money. What
amount of QA you can do where the costs of handling defective products is
less expensive than more extensive testing?

Of course, replacing defective dishwashers is a little different than
buying your way out of a crashed 737.

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024 05:10:27 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> 3 1/4? Is that somewhere between 3 1/2 and 5 1/4? Or was there another
> format that didn't make it? I know there were a few.

Okay, okay, 3 1/2. It's been a while. I may have some 5 1/4s around here
too. We found some 8" while cleaning up at work but I think they were
thrown out.

If I dig long enough I think I can scare up a QIC-80 drive, as well as
both an internal and external Iomega ZIP-100 drive. I'm not sure about
media for either.

Like I said, I really need to make a few trips to the dumpster.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 12/12/2024 20:42, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>>
>>>> But by the mid 1970s they had become competitive with the rise in fuel
>>>> prices, and today's level of computer systems and long range networking
>>>> would
>>>> probably result in just a couple of people to manage any routine issues
>>>> on
>>>> the power plant and satellite comms back to the nuclear power plant
>>>> builder
>>>> to tell them what to do if anything went outside operational norms
>>>
>>> I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A
>>> reactor
>>> that is preloaded and welded shut.
>>
>> Yes, and the reactor model for ships is basically the model for SMR
>> start-ups, except with the vague idea that they're suddenly going
>> to be much cheaper somehow (I'll believe it when they "hit the
>> shelves").
>>
>
> Its not a vague idea, its a completely sound business model
>
> Over 85% of the cots of a new conventional reactor is in getting it certified
> to be safe at every single stage of the construction. Capital lies idle ad
> does the workforce in half finished constructions waiting to be signed off
> fort the next stage, and woe betide you if some trivial aspect of it isn't to
> the specification - you need to re-certify it all over again.
> SMRs cut the Gordian knot, By making the reactors in a factory to identical
> specifications and having them small enough to trailer them to the site, 90%
> of the certification is only done once. For as many units as you care to
> make.
>
> Also, below a certain size, the scale effect swings towards you: the reactor
> does not need active cooling to dissipate the decay heat after a SCRAM
> shutdown. So no Fukushima or 3MI accident is possible. Convection is enough
> to do the job.
>
> The only downside to SMRs is that at smaller sizes they need more highly
> enriched uranium (or Plutonium/Uranium mixes) to get to critical. The supply
> chain for that is not yet established at scale.
>
> Most of the designs that seem likely to reach production first are simply
> scaled down pressurised water reactors, as used in nuclear submarines etc.
> with probably extra shelding and safety to meet commercial safety standards.

Just saw this:

"China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station in
Gobi Desert"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-power-station-gobi/104304468

Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 13/12/2024 10:06, D wrote:
>> Nope! Europe is too busy turning into the next soviet union to allow its
>> citizens any form of fun, or to have opinions which deviate from what the
>> politicians say.
>>
> +1
>> Thankfully there is usenet which lives on, completely forgotten by the
>> secret police. 😉
>
> Sssh..

Yes, I'm almost hesitant to mention this gem to fellow technologists out
of fear the secret will coem out. ;)

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 13/12/2024 10:31, D wrote:
>>>
>>>  Good, large, diesel/oil engines are still the
>>>  solution for large commercial carriers.
>>
>> Subtract taxes, and compare only the raw cost, and the economics look even
>> better! On gasoline at least 50% is tax, so remove that, and we can happily
>> continue for at least a generation or two. =)
>
> The point is that the economics of small modular reactors plunked into a ship
> and monitored more or less remotely by satellite link, with lots of smart
> RCMs (reactor control modules) scattered around them now fall in favour of
> nuclear.
>
> Once everybody accepts the idea.
> That is why a consortium of ship operators is looking very closely at it.
>
> https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/new-study-considers-nuclear-powered-bulk-carriers
>
> https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/articles/regulatory-assessment-of-nuclear-powered-cargo-shi
>
> and many more... https://www.world-nuclear-news.org/search?search=Ships
>
> Now these bulk carriers have commercial clout. Enough to buy many many
> politicians and dictators.
>
> Nuclear ships will happen.

That's good news! A small step forward for mankind. And maybe there will
be some nice additional effects in that the public might lose its
unreasonable fear of nuclear? Or maybe that will happen automatically once
the politicians change their minds. After all, then the media will have to
change their minds as well.

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 13/12/2024 10:09, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>>
>>> On 2024-12-12, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>> I wonder if they could use the model from some SMR startup for ships? A
>>>> reactor
>>>> that is preloaded and welded shut. Then it operates for its entire
>>>> lifetime
>>>> until the fuel is used up, and then you change to a new reactor.
>>>
>>> That is sort of the model used on the submarines ... and on the NS
>>> Savannah in the early 1960s. From what I have read, it could be
>>> commercially viable today (with the improvements in relevant technology
>>> in the last 60 years).
>>>
>>
>> Thank you. Let's see... there is much interest in the SMR. Let's see who
>> will be the first to take the step among the EU members.
>
> Well UK isn't EU, but it is likely that RR who built reactors for Britains
> nuclear submarines, will have something in production by 2030 or thereabouts.
> There is considerable interest from several EU nations- the Czechs are in
> there too, as are the Poles, and Dutch.
>
> France is solid EDF big scale and Germany is in a total mess at the moment as
> their green policy collapses.
>
> I think by 2030 at least three possibly four reactor designs will be out
> there working commercially across Europe and SE aAsia and probably Africa
> too.

Would be excellent! As long as someone takes the first step, usually the
rest will follow. =)

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024, Rich wrote:
>>
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ah... childhood memories! This was the easiest thing in the world to
>>>> produce! Once I managed to stop a subway line with it. I think I was
>>>> around 12 or 13, and we were playing with this stuff under a bridge that
>>>> had a subway line.
>>>>
>>>> The subway came, created a draft that sucked all the smoke into the
>>>> tunnel, and they thought there was a fire and stopped the subway. 10
>>>> minutes later the police arrived, discovered us (we didn't run) and said
>>>> "boys will be boys" and let us go.
>>>>
>>>> I thought the police actually thought it was funny and were reminded of
>>>> their own childhood (although of course they didn't show any of this).
>>>>
>>>> Ahh, those were better, more innocent times!
>>>
>>> Yes indeed. Today some kids doing the identical activity would pull in
>>> the local police, the FBI, the TSA, and likely several other
>>> three-letter-agencies and the kids would be put on several terrorist in
>>> the making watchlists and be haunted by that label for the rest of
>>> their lives.
>>
>> Sadly I believe you are correct. =( And that attitude is killing freedom
>> and society.
>
> Also forgot: And their respective parents would be charged with child
> abuse, child endangerment, and whatever else the local DA wanted to
> throw in, for allowing "Jonny" to roam free and play with such
> "dangerous materials".

Ahh... so they can take the children away and bring them up as perfects
servants of the state. Make sense. =(

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, John Ames wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>
>> 10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
>> question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
>
> The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*

Let's cross that bridge when we get to it. ;)

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:25:26 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>>
>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 21:34:04 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> True. My jokes about feminism and the unequality of men and women
>>>> sometimes lands me in dangerous territory with my wife. She is a
>>>> lawyer!
>>>
>>> My wife became more religious after the divorce. About 20 years after
>>> the
>>
>> Strange! This is not the first time I have heard this. An acquaintance
>> separated and after that, his ex became religious as well. Very strange.
>
> She was raised as a Methodist but wasn't serious about it. It was a search
> for something missing. Like many Protestants her church shopping was more
> about emotion than doctrine. For a while she attended a Congregational
> church that leaned toward pentacostalism. The people were nice enough had
> provided support. I went to a couple of their services. I was raised
> Catholic and the Mass did not include spontaneous outbursts or 'Praise
> Jesus!' and the like. I think she's into the rapture thing too.

I'm not a christian, but those spontaneous outbursts are very funny! If
someone would force me to a service, I think I would enjoy my outbursts!
I've been to a few catholic services throughout my life, but I don't think
it was anything to write home about. In one, I think it was the wedding
of my wifes friend, the priest wanted everyone to kneel, but I don't do
that. So my wife was very angry with me when I remained sitting. Kind of
reminds me of during corona, when I was the only one walking around a
shopping center without a mask. ;)

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:02:47 +0100, D wrote:
>
>
>> So you know the company president? You must indeed be a powerful man! Or
>> the president must be a special president who actually talks to
>> employees?
>> Or a bit of both perhaps!
>
> Small company, titles are cheap. When he retired my brother was a VP of
> Morton Thiokol. He would point out that it was no big thing. Government
> types like to think they're dealing with someone important so they made
> him a VP.
>
> I've always worked for small companies or for myself so there was never
> the formal hierarchy. You tend to invent titles that fit the expectations
> of whom you're dealing with. When asked what I do my answer is usually
> 'programmer'. Not very regal, particularly for those who remember when
> 'programmer' was the entry level position for people trying to work their
> way up to the exalted 'programmer analyst' position.

Yes, this is the truth. In my company I don't even have a title, except of
course, in the government documents where I'm the CEO by law requirement.
But in my emails I don't have a title. Ultimate flexibility! ;)

> He really was a good boss. I had a lot of latitude for skunk work projects
> and he shielded his people from most of the political bullshit going on in
> the front office.

This is the truth! When I have the opportunity I always try to do the
same. I think little skunkworks projects are very good for your creativity
and to keep you happy at work. When I quit my consulting gig building up a
support department, the first things the owners of the company did was to
cut all the skunkworks projects, and then they turned it from a customer
service focused department to a technology department. The companys
revenue have been flat or declining ever since. ;)

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:08:02 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Are there any techniques to resupply a sub completely under water? Would
>> be fascinating if it could be managed and resupplied kind of like a
>> space station with rotating crews and all, being sent in smaller
>> submarines docking at the big one.
>
> https://www.sandboxx.us/news/how-do-americas-nuclear-submarines-get-
> resupplied-at-sea/
>
> https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/resupply-navy-nuclear-submarine
>
> If there is some way to resupply while submerged they aren't talking about
> it.
>

Probably top secret!

On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-13, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>
>> I've always worked for small companies or for myself so there was never
>> the formal hierarchy. You tend to invent titles that fit the expectations
>> of whom you're dealing with. When asked what I do my answer is usually
>> 'programmer'. Not very regal, particularly for those who remember when
>> 'programmer' was the entry level position for people trying to work their
>> way up to the exalted 'programmer analyst' position.
>
> At a PPOE my job description was "programmer-analyst". However, the payroll
> system's job description field was 15 characters long (and all upper case,
> of course), so it would print out as PROGRAMMER-ANAL. I always thought that
> was appropriate.
>
>> He really was a good boss. I had a lot of latitude for skunk work projects
>> and he shielded his people from most of the political bullshit going on in
>> the front office.
>
> I once had a boss like that. When dealing with users' unreasonable requests,
> his vocabulary contained a word that is not often found: "No." He drove a
> VW Beetle, rather than the obligatory management-style luxury car, which
> raised him several notches in my estimation.

Being independent is positive, however, being independent, knowing the
word no, and not being like everyone else can hamper progress towards the
upper echelons of management. ;)

On Sat, 13 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 23:17:36 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>
>> I once had a boss like that. When dealing with users' unreasonable
>> requests,
>> his vocabulary contained a word that is not often found: "No." He drove
>> a VW Beetle, rather than the obligatory management-style luxury car,
>> which raised him several notches in my estimation.
>
> In the first company I worked for the owner/president drove a Lincoln. The
> rumor was the VP would have dearly loved a Cadillac but carefully stayed
> one step downscale.
>
> At a start up the president drove a Camaro. The first few years were lean
> but when we finally started making money he bought a Cadillac Cimmarron,
> which was their attempt to compete with the more compact European luxury
> sedans. It had problems but the final straw was when his secretary bought
> a Pontiac. It was pretty much the same J-body car GM used throughout its
> product line.
>
> Next up was a Mercedes, I forget which flavor. Keeping with the times it
> was a diesel. For someone used to a Camaro the snail like acceleration
> didn't cut it. He wasn't happy and when his son tried to fill it up with
> gasoline that was it for the Merc.
>
> Finally he bought a Lincoln Town Car. In his words, 'If I'm going to be
> nigger rich I'm going to do it right!' That one was a keeper.
>
> The owner of the company I currently work for drives some sort of
> nondescript older Toyota SUV with rear quarter panel damage patched
> together by the maintenance guy with duct tape.

Sounds like a good man! You should keep him! ;)

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2024-12-14, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>
>> On 12/13/24 11:34 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 13/12/2024 16:32, John Ames wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 11:29:51 +0100
>>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 10x over todays figures? Nothing to scoff at, but I guess the
>>>>> question is, how long will it take us to get those 10x?
>>>>
>>>> The bigger question - what happens when we decide we need 10x *more...?*
>>>>
>>> A grown up will come along to tell you that you cant always get what you
>>> want...
>
> But if you try sometime... you get what you need...
>
>> NOOOOOO !!! WAAAAAHH !!!
>>
>> https://scitechdaily.com/light-speed-ai-mits-ultrafast-photonic-processor-delivers-extreme-efficiency/
>>
>> Sounds great but I think it's just a lab-bench project
>> at this point, NOT a big powerful 'chip'.
>>
>> There's also something about 92% accuracy. Eh ?
>> We want 100% accuracy 100% of the time. Wanna
>> fly on a plane structurally calculated with 92%
>> accuracy ?
>
> *cough*Boeing*cough*

They do seem to have a lot of problems. Maybe someone in this group, like
Rambo, will be called out of retirement to save Boeing?

On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:

> Just saw this:
>
> "China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station in
> Gobi Desert"
>
> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-
> power-station-gobi/104304468
>
> Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!

If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen Atomics,
that have put out a couple of good promo videos.

The first describes the worlds general energy problem:

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>

The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten salt
reactor.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>

Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of the
issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy, which
a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he
discusses non electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions
also skip over.

As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems,
corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.

rbowman wrote:

> Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out. This
> ain't the Internet Archives.

Still I hate doing it ... I did get rid of all my HP related manuals
when I decided the 9000/800-F10 didn't deserve houseroom, but I still
have grey and orange walls in the loft.

On 14/12/2024 00:25, rbowman wrote:
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024 20:13:16 -0000 (UTC), Rich wrote:
>
>> The AT&T PC clone (itself a rebranded Olivetti machine) was an 8086.
>> That was my first exposure to the IBM PC compatible world, an AT&T PC
>> clone running the 8086. While one /could/ measure the performance
>> difference in benchmarks, in real world usage it was not markedly
>> 'faster' than an 8088 based system (i.e., the 20MB hard disk was the
>> same performance for both, and its sluggishness was what one spent most
>> of one's time waiting upon).
>
> Then there was the best of both worlds NEC V20.
>
> https://hackaday.com/2020/07/10/an-nec-v20-for-two-processors-in-one-sbc/
>
> That one must have really chafed Intel's butt, a pin compatible drop in a
> little faster that the 8088 and, wait for it, we had a few transistors
> left over so it emulates the 8080 too. No wonder Intel sued.

My first PC had a V20. Clean clone. Did much work on that.

--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

On 14/12/2024 10:36, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 13 Dec 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>>
>> I think by 2030 at least three  possibly four reactor designs will be
>> out there working commercially across Europe and SE aAsia and probably
>> Africa too.
>
> Would be excellent! As long as someone takes the first step, usually the
> rest will follow. =)

About 12 years ago I wrote a paper detailing why I thought renewable
energy would never work except as an add on. Because in every case the
nuclear power option was cheaper *overall* and less environmentally
destructive.

It had nothing to say about climate change. I was merely looking at a
future beyond fossil fuels...

But the moment I put it on line, using a name I had never used before in
the Internet, and put a link to it, I discovered that I was already 'a
well known climate denier' ...'in the pay of big Oil'!!

At that point I started to look closer into climate change to see why an
independent retired engineer writing about energy should arouse such a
false response.

--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

On 14/12/2024 11:37, Pancho wrote:
> On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
>
>> Just saw this:
>>
>> "China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station
>> in Gobi Desert"
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-
>> power-station-gobi/104304468
>>
>> Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
>
> If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen Atomics,
> that have put out a couple of good promo videos.
>
> The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
>
> The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten salt
> reactor.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
>
> Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of the
> issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy, which
> a lot of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he
> discusses non electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions
> also skip over.
>
> As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems,
> corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.

No fission reactor is perfect. It's engineering, not religion.

Currently the best bet are modern straightforward PWR designs that are
well understood, shrunk to a size that makes mass factory production
possible.

Once we have avoided the renewable energy catastrophe, *then* its time
to look at thorium.

--
In todays liberal progressive conflict-free education system, everyone
gets full Marx.

On 2024-12-14, Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> wrote:

> rbowman wrote:
>
>> Note to self: you really need to throw that crap out. This
>> ain't the Internet Archives.
>
> Still I hate doing it ... I did get rid of all my HP related manuals
> when I decided the 9000/800-F10 didn't deserve houseroom, but I still
> have grey and orange walls in the loft.

I bought a sheed-fed scanner (Brother ADS-2700W) and got rid of my
black Univac wall a while ago. It's all on Bitsavers now.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Sat, 14 Dec 2024, Pancho wrote:

> On 12/14/24 10:31, D wrote:
>
>> Just saw this:
>>
>> "China to build first-ever thorium molten salt nuclear power station in
>> Gobi Desert"
>>
>> https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-09-06/china-building-thorium-nuclear-
>> power-station-gobi/104304468
>>
>> Will be interesting to see if they will succeed!
>
> If you are interested, there is a thorium startup, Copenhagen Atomics, that
> have put out a couple of good promo videos.
>
> The first describes the worlds general energy problem:
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVue7cgmM00>
>
> The second details Copenhagen Atomics "Onion Core" thorium molten salt
> reactor.
>
> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqxvBAJn_vc>
>
> Obviously it is typical startup hype, but the guy touches on most of the
> issues. In particular he addresses the fact we need cheap energy, which a lot
> of the renewable discussions try to cover up. Secondly he discusses non
> electrical energy use, which many renewable discussions also skip over.
>
> As I understand it, molten salt reactors have two main tech problems,
> corrosion and continuously separating out unwanted fission products.
>

Thank you very much!