On Thu, 16 Jan 2025, Rich wrote:

> In comp.os.linux.misc D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 16 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>
>>> On 16/01/2025 09:33, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>> On 15/01/2025 20:31, Pancho wrote:
>>>>> I think you have to be careful that they are not controlled by a
>>>>> cloud service. If you have a cloud service you need a working wan
>>>>> connection and you are exposed to the cloud service provider
>>>>> disappearing.
>>>>
>>>> (Thanks to all for replying)
>>>>
>>>> This is the rub. tp-link clearly /want/ the consumer to use their
>>>> "cloud" service - which is usually just a fancy codeword for 'we
>>>> want your data'. There's no actual /need/ that I can see in this
>>>> case.
>>>>
>>> Actually there is.
>>>
>>> It is the simple way to solve 'remote access' to your 'behind NAS'
>>> network connected gadgets
>>>
>>> Now *we* can organise that because we are geeks, but te average
>>> coinsumer? Doan mak me larf!
>>
>> I use tor to give me a globally unique name where I can access my
>> stuff behind NAT as a Tor hidden service.
>
> 99.1% of the total users would be incapable of achieving what you are
> doing with Tor, even if given infinite time to set it all up.
>

So? I made no claim that 99.1% should be able to achieve it, so I do not
understand your sentence.

On Thu, 16 Jan 2025, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> On 2025-01-16, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On 2025-01-16 10:33, Mike Scott wrote:
>>
>>> On 15/01/2025 20:31, Pancho wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>>> And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's code
>>> won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
>>> wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
>>> I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
>>> going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
>>> I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone anyway.)
>>
>> It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
>> anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
>> you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
>> registered with Google).
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> That's a deal-breaker right there.

WTF?! Since when did that ever become a criterion? Sounds like some kind
of business manager should be gently removed from his job for making that a
requirement.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, Lars Poulsen wrote:

> I hate Alexa. We had an Echo in the house for a bit, and it was forever
> listining in on our conversations and breaking in on them. That got her
> banished.

What!? As in "I cannot do that Dave"-stuff? Scary! I would never dream of having
a device that constantly sends audio to google & co in my house. On the other
hand, I live in an apartment, so automating light switches and other stuff is
not meaningful, since it quicker and easier to just use the light switch. Also
there's no heating, blinds or other stuff really to control.

I do see the value if you have a big house. I can then see where it might make
sense to optimize some parameters of the house.

But I'd ideally like something self-hosted for that.

>> It may change as more companies realize the cloud is costing them a lot of
>> money particularly for AWS or other commercial providers. Some have went
>> back to running their own servers.
>
> I never understood how any business - large or small - could be
> comfortable having their financial information or their proprietary
> technical data on a cloud server. Quickbooks online would seem to be a

You are a wise man Lars! My companies finances are on my laptop, on my backup
server, and at my accountant. They have sworn on the bible, that it is not in
google or in a cloud service, but I don't trust them. On the other hand, the
selection of accountants was very bad, so I no choice but to trust them at the
moment. The positive thing is that sometimes when they share information with
me, they share a Nextcloud link, so that's at least something! =D

> tempting target for Intuit data mining. For that matter, I worry about
> having my personal tax return submitted to IRS through Intuit's servers
> (TurboTax) - or for that matter HR Block's. But I pray that there are
> data protection laws surrounding this that they can't bypass with a
> click-wrap user agreement. Imagine how lucrative it would be to sell
> mortgages, life insurances or investment packages to people based on
> reading their annual Form 1040.

Yes! I read an article about modern scammer practices. Apparently they are
modern people and you can buy data, data cleaning, voice operators, money
launderes, etc. "as a service". Either pay by the hour or with % of the money
you manage to steal. Fascinating!

>> Meanwhile it is annoying. My Fitbit device won't synch with the
>> application on the phone without an internet connection. Leaving aside I
>> don't enjoy being radio-collared by Google I sometimes have to jockey the
>> phone around to get a connection.
>
> I just discovered that in the last two weeks, as I replaced by Fitbit
> Charge 5 with a new Charge 6. It somehow would not show me the time
> when I had left my phone in the office while going out to get the mail
> from the mailbox at the driveway. Recovered once I was in Blluetooth
> range. Some datapoints can sync between the watch and the phone over
> BlueTooth, but "deeper stuff" like sleep analysis does indeed require
> connection to the Google servers.

I say... drop the fitbit and take a walk and do some pushups. Then you'll be
find, and you will have one less device to worry about! =)

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, rbowman wrote:

> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 02:53:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>
>> I hate Alexa. We had an Echo in the house for a bit, and it was forever
>> listining in on our conversations and breaking in on them. That got her
>> banished.
>
> I never had an Echo. I asked a woman I worked with whose name a Alex about
> t. Apparently you can select other wake words which was good for her. My
> utterances on a normal day are 'Good morning, cat' when I go out to feed
> her in the morning, or 'Hi cat' when she mysteriously appears when I drive
> in. I've seen the cat galloping from the pasture about 100 yards away when
> I pull in so she has learned to recognize my car or motorcycles.

A free range cat? Do you ever have problems with ticks? Every summer in
the country house when I was young, the neighbours cat would more or less
move in with us since the food was better than the dry food he got at his
home. But sometimes it would happen that I would read, and the cat wanted
petting. So I petted the cat while reading, then look at my hand to
discover ticks crawling there. So the cat brought us rich gifts in the
form of ticks and the occasional dead (or alive) mice.

I do not like ticks. They remind me of politicians and I would not be
displeased if they all disappeared.

A small sliver of hope is a vaccine against lyme I read about a year ago
that's in the testing phase.

>> I just discovered that in the last two weeks, as I replaced by Fitbit
>> Charge 5 with a new Charge 6. It somehow would not show me the time when
>> I had left my phone in the office while going out to get the mail from
>> the mailbox at the driveway. Recovered once I was in Blluetooth range.
>> Some datapoints can sync between the watch and the phone over BlueTooth,
>> but "deeper stuff" like sleep analysis does indeed require connection to
>> the Google servers.
>
> Synching for me often shows a network connection is necessary and may
> require multiple restarts of the app. It's not very smooth. The latest
> feature, 'cardio load', has many people trying to figure out how it works
> and the prompts to get your lazy butt in gear are not appreciated.
>
> I got the Fitbit at a discount through Planet Fitness a year ago. It
> usually works for distance and seems to be relatively reliable for HR. The
> rest is iffy. The real selling point for me is it's not a Dick Tracy
> Communicator on my wrist.
>
>

On 17/01/2025 09:40, D wrote:
> I do see the value if you have a big house. I can then see where it
> might make
> sense to optimize some parameters of the house.
>
> But I'd ideally like something self-hosted for that.

Remember smart tech is for stupid people

--
Karl Marx said religion is the opium of the people.
But Marxism is the crack cocaine.

On 1/15/25 20:35, Andy Burns wrote:
> Pancho wrote:
>
>> I use an open source firmware called Tasmota, which can be installed
>> on some devices but not others. I have installed it in a Sonoff
>> device, maybe 5 years ago, but it was a pain.
>
> I think that's the idea behind the Sonoff "DIY" devices ... no soldering
> required to get Tasmota installed ...

Thx, I'd not heard of Sonoff "DIY" mode. It appears to be a REST API
interface so that the device can be controlled directly on the LAN,
rather than via the cloud (eWeLink). (REST is good, but there is no
MQTT, so these Sonoff devices are different from Tasmota)

AIUI, the latest Sonoff Smart Plug S60 doesn't support "DIY" mode. The
Sonoff BASIC R3 does support DIY (which is the successor of my painful
BASIC R1), but it's an inline switch not a plug and it doesn't have a
power meter.

On 2025-01-17 10:14, D wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 2025, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
>> On 2025-01-16, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2025-01-16 10:33, Mike Scott wrote:
>>>> On 15/01/2025 20:31, Pancho wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> And the problem there is my phone and hudl are ancient so tp-link's
>>>> code
>>>> won't install - and when I try to install it on my wife's phone, it
>>>> wants me to enable in-app purchases. WHY? It's totally unnecessary. All
>>>> I want to do is set up a device I've already purchased. (And it's not
>>>> going to happen: I avoid in-app purchase software like the plague, and
>>>> I'm not about to set up something like that on a borrowed phone
>>>> anyway.)
>>>
>>> It is just a permission on this single app, you don't have to buy
>>> anything. It will not buy anything for you on your back. In any case,
>>> you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a banking account
>>> registered with Google).
>>  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>> That's a deal-breaker right there.
>
> WTF?! Since when did that ever become a criterion? Sounds like some kind
> of business manager should be gently removed from his job for making
> that a requirement.

Maybe you are misunderstanding. Let me rewrite:

In any case,you have to actually approve the purchase (and have a
banking account registered with Google) in order to actually do a purchase.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> On 17/01/2025 09:40, D wrote:
>> I do see the value if you have a big house. I can then see where it might
>> make
>> sense to optimize some parameters of the house.
>>
>> But I'd ideally like something self-hosted for that.
>
> Remember smart tech is for stupid people

Would that mean that stupid tech is for smart people? ;)

On 17/01/2025 15:46, D wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> On 17/01/2025 09:40, D wrote:
>>> I do see the value if you have a big house. I can then see where it
>>> might make
>>> sense to optimize some parameters of the house.
>>>
>>> But I'd ideally like something self-hosted for that.
>>
>> Remember smart tech is for stupid people
>
> Would that mean that stupid tech is for smart people? ;)
I think so.

--
In a Time of Universal Deceit, Telling the Truth Is a Revolutionary Act.

- George Orwell

On 16/01/2025 20:48, Phillip wrote:
> I don't disagree that most users are not likely to be able to set up
> complex things, but realistically, companies should always make it
> possible to bypass their cloud service. The ruse is "people are too
> stupid to do this" as an excuse for cloud services being obligatory.
> Even though, they actually aren't. Just give users the option to bypass
......
>
> Offer users the option, if they want it. But never force it or make it
......
>
> This is how it should be. And for users that want all that cloud stuff,
> it can be optional available to them.
>
> Anyone that thinks these things should be forced is just perpetuating an
> abusive system or just lacks knowledge on how these things work.

(OP)

+1.

With the added note that control of all these cloud-based gizmos is
probably located in China. Perhaps not the best of ideas in the current
climate.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On 16/01/2025 13:25, Alan K. wrote:
>> If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay
>> Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
>> Interface: apt install usbrelay
>> usbrelay --debug for information
>>
>> 1, 2, 3, 8 channels available
>>
>>
> https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
> That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course
> Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a huge
> DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.

Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.

The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
construction, especially for unattended operation.

It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On 16/01/2025 13:10, yossarian wrote:
> Yes, they exist. One of them is this one.
> https://www.shelly.com/products/shelly-plug-s-gen3
> I have experience with one like this. You use your browser to control them. There is no
> cloud if you don't want to. It connects to your wi-fi network. Just type address into your browser,
> and you are ready to go.

They do a UK version too, which helps. Price not too unearthly either,
although significantly more than tp-link.

I'll check the product out, thanks.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 02:53:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>> I just discovered that in the last two weeks, as I replaced by Fitbit
>> Charge 5 with a new Charge 6. It somehow would not show me the time when
>> I had left my phone in the office while going out to get the mail from
>> the mailbox at the driveway. Recovered once I was in Blluetooth range.
>> Some datapoints can sync between the watch and the phone over BlueTooth,
>> but "deeper stuff" like sleep analysis does indeed require connection to
>> the Google servers.

On 2025-01-17, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
> Synching for me often shows a network connection is necessary and may
> require multiple restarts of the app. It's not very smooth. The latest
> feature, 'cardio load', has many people trying to figure out how it works
> and the prompts to get your lazy butt in gear are not appreciated.

Cardio Load seems to be designed to induce people to "upgrade" to a paid
Premium subscription. But like some other features releated to
"exercise", it does not work with the machinery I use at the gym:
Elliptical, Stairmaster and Treadmill. Tracking exercise insists that you
must be moving, as measured by GPS, and the GPS map takes over the
screen and prevents you from seeing heart rate, which is the most useful
measurement in real time for me.

On 16/01/2025 20:55, Rich wrote:
> Which is how all the other IoT stuff should be too. Sadly, too many
> companies don't even think to offer the "non-cloud" option.

A bit like user interfaces. A cli-oriented interface can easily be
wrapped in a gui; but if all that's on offer is a gui, tough cheese for
those needing cli/scripted access.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On 17/01/2025 02:53, Lars Poulsen wrote:
> I never understood how any business - large or small - could be
> comfortable having their financial information or their proprietary
> technical data on a cloud server.

Because people do not understand what they're doing. Some think "cloud"
is a magical panacea for all things: they don't really understand it
simply means getting someone else to manage (and thereby have access to)
their data.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 10:40:21 +0100, D wrote:

> I say... drop the fitbit and take a walk and do some pushups. Then
> you'll be find, and you will have one less device to worry about! =)

The distance and heart rate metrics are useful to make sure the walk
doesn't turn into a stroll. Lately I've been doing my version of Nordic
walking. It's interesting how the upper body involvement adds to the
exercise.

I'd been using a pedometer app that was fairly accurate for distance. The
fitbit uses the phone's GPS so can be a little more accurate although it's
not foolproof.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 10:45:41 +0100, D wrote:

> A free range cat? Do you ever have problems with ticks? Every summer in
> the country house when I was young, the neighbours cat would more or
> less move in with us since the food was better than the dry food he got
> at his home. But sometimes it would happen that I would read, and the
> cat wanted petting. So I petted the cat while reading, then look at my
> hand to discover ticks crawling there. So the cat brought us rich gifts
> in the form of ticks and the occasional dead (or alive) mice.

No, I've never seen tics on the cat. I've picked them up hiking but not
around home. The local version is the Rocky Mountain Wood Tick and true to
its name seems to prefer brushy areas. I don't think the cat goes out to
the tree line. There be dragons there.

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 18:34:16 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> Cardio Load seems to be designed to induce people to "upgrade" to a paid
> Premium subscription. But like some other features releated to
> "exercise", it does not work with the machinery I use at the gym:
> Elliptical, Stairmaster and Treadmill. Tracking exercise insists that
> you must be moving, as measured by GPS, and the GPS map takes over the
> screen and prevents you from seeing heart rate, which is the most useful
> measurement in real time for me.

That's the conclusion on the Fitbit subreddit. Half an hour on the stair
stepper using the cardio feature to keep my HR up yielded 0 cardio load. A
half hour walk outside at a lower average HR did better. I don't look at
the watch or app when I'm moving so it's all after action data.

On 2025-01-17, Mike Scott <usenet.16@scottsonline.org.uk.invalid> wrote:

> On 17/01/2025 02:53, Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>> I never understood how any business - large or small - could be
>> comfortable having their financial information or their proprietary
>> technical data on a cloud server.
>
> Because people do not understand what they're doing. Some think "cloud"
> is a magical panacea for all things: they don't really understand it
> simply means getting someone else to manage (and thereby have access to)
> their data.

People have become too dependent on the Internet.
It Clouds their thinking.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On 2025-01-17, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:

> I do not like ticks. They remind me of politicians and I would not be
> displeased if they all disappeared.

The word "politics" derives from "poly", as in many,
and "ticks", as in blood-sucking parasites.

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:

> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>
> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
> construction ...

I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
electrician help to set it up.

On Fri, 1/17/2025 11:48 AM, Mike Scott wrote:
> On 16/01/2025 13:25, Alan K. wrote:
>>> If you're up to a bit of wiring, try a USB relay. E.g. Annadue Relay Module (try Amazon, 2 channel £10.62)
>>> Interface: apt install usbrelay
>>> usbrelay --debug for information
>>>
>>> 1, 2, 3, 8 channels available
>>>
>>>
>> https://www.amazon.com/DSD-TECH-SH-UR01A-Controller-Computer/dp/B09PYML6Q7
>> That's the coolest.  Damn! I wish I had that back when!   Of course Linux Mint and good computers etc weren't available when I was a huge DIYer and tinkered, but it really would have been fun.
>
>
> Nice idea... but I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>
> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home construction, especially for unattended operation.
>
> It's why I'm trying to find a commercial solution.

You can use a relay, to switch a relay.

It's like amplifiers in a sense.

You need to know the "pull-in current", to make
the "power relay" work. The relay is like a solenoid,
in that there is a coil of wire, a metal slug, and when
you put enough current into the coil of wire, the metal
slug moves and causes the relay contact to close.

If the relay is DPST (Double Pole Single Throw), then
you could disconnect hot and neutral on a 240V 13A load.
That sort of thing. Safety ground remains connected.

The relay on the USB module, you power the output contacts
from a power source providing the volts and amps the
coil on the power relay needs.

And you can test the power relay, without mains connected
to the secondary side. You can listen for the solenoid metal
slug moving and the relay contacts making the "ker-chung" noise.
If you use DC current for the relay coil, then the relay
coil will not hum.
DPST Double Pole Single Throw

\
Hot Line-side ---x x--- Load side Hot (Fusing and fixtures
as appropriate)
\
Neutral Line-side ---x x--- Load side Neutral
a----- ||
\ || Power
/ || Relay (mains-rated contacts
b---- ||

With only signal connected to a & b, you listed for the
right sound effect. Later, you plug in the two ends on the
mains part of the project (the upper part). to switch the load.
The left hand side is a plug that goes into the wall. The electric
fire on the right, plugs into an outlet box on your wood strip with
the relay screwed to it.

Need to figure out amount of current into relay coil
at a and b, to achieve "pull-in" of the solenoid. The
more hefty the relay and its "return spring", the more
current needed on the coil to move the slug.

Paul

On 18/01/2025 02:21, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Jan 2025 16:48:03 +0000, Mike Scott wrote:
>
>> ... I'm looking at probably 3kW at 240V to run a heater.
>>
>> The power level is just a bit outside my comfort zone for home
>> construction ...
>
> I should say it is. It’s well beyond the rating for a typical household
> outlet. Whatever it is, I imagine you’re going to need professional
> electrician help to set it up.

Your comment puzzles me.... standard UK outlets are 13A 240V, using a
ring main rated at 30A total. 3kW is a standard "3 bar" electric heater.

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On 15/01/2025 17:14, Andy Burns wrote:
> Mike Scott wrote:
>
>> Hi all. I'm looking for a so-called "smart plug" to control from linux.
>>
>> I've just had a bad experience with tp-link's offering, which requires
>> using a phone to set it up - and enabling in-app purchases to do so,
>> how unnecessary! My own phone and tablet are too out of date for their
>> software to install, and I'm not about to change settings on anyone
>> else's. Unfortunately, PyP100 needs the device to be already set up :-{
>>
>>
>> So - is there a smart plug around that can be set up and controlled
>> from linux without all the garbage the makers seem to want to inflict?
> If you use a Sonoff device (may be the DIY version, or maybe one you've
> replaced the factory firmware) there are python utils to control them
>
> <https://sonoff.tech/product/diy-smart-switches/basicr2/>
>
> <https://gist.github.com/Derkades/>

I've had a look at the online manual for the UK version

https://sonoff.tech/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/User-Manual_S60TPGEN-V1.0.pdf

It raises a couple of questions... it says a 13A breaker needs to be
installed to protect the device. AFAIA all UK kit must have its own fuse
to protect itself and its own power cord; the ring main typically just
has a 30A breaker to protect the house wiring. It does sound as if it's
not UK standards compliant, which is concerning.

Also, the setup procedure still seems to need their own app to get
things going. Again, no doubt running only on the latest and greatest
smart phone ;-{

--
Mike Scott
Harlow, England

On Fri, 17 Jan 2025, Mike Scott wrote:

> On 16/01/2025 20:48, Phillip wrote:
>> I don't disagree that most users are not likely to be able to set up
>> complex things, but realistically, companies should always make it possible
>> to bypass their cloud service. The ruse is "people are too stupid to do
>> this" as an excuse for cloud services being obligatory. Even though, they
>> actually aren't. Just give users the option to bypass
> .....
>>
>> Offer users the option, if they want it. But never force it or make it
> .....
>>
>> This is how it should be. And for users that want all that cloud stuff, it
>> can be optional available to them.
>>
>> Anyone that thinks these things should be forced is just perpetuating an
>> abusive system or just lacks knowledge on how these things work.
>
> (OP)
>
> +1.
>
> With the added note that control of all these cloud-based gizmos is probably
> located in China. Perhaps not the best of ideas in the current climate.

I read a fascinating article about bot nets and and old control servers on
expired domains. The security firm took ownership of those old domains and
found about 4000 infected servers still active.

I imagine that same might happen with internet connected devices. When the
company closes down, someone registers their domains and might be able to
do some sinister things.