On 12/25/24 2:51 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 12:27:27 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> As a libertarian, my favourite argument against libertarianism, is that
>> it is very unstable, and very likely to be attacked from without, or
>> over time, to be converted into kingdoms with serfs.
>
> Libertarians have a lot of faith in mankind that I don't share. Then there
> is the problem that many of the libertarians I've know IRL tend to be
> nutters.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)

There is large-L Libertarian and small-l libertarian. I tend
to fall into the latter group.

Large-L is kinda naive - we have and still see what happens
when humans can get too much power over other humans at most
any scale. Slaves and serfs are the least of it. The instinct
to dominance is hardwired in (and, clearly, not JUST our
all-so-proud species). It's very Darwinian, just that Darwin
never imagined thermonuclear weapons .....

There's also the issue of the "bygone world" - that kinda
simpler time where the world was 'bigger' and you could
kinda just disconnect. The idea that you could still finds
some favor in the USA and likely Canada. Everything else
was always "over there" after all ...

> At least he stood out and became a little less blueish over the years. The
> Libertarian Party typically gets 3% of the vote but outdid itself this
> year with 0.42% after nominating a pro-choice gay. The LP in this state
> ignored him completely.

The LP ... yea ... doesn't do very well. I'd like to think
that 'libertarian' idealism isn't THAT far gone. That sort
of thinking is what gave us 'human rights' and Bill-o-Rights
and neo-democracy and equality under the law and a lot of
other niceties people tend to take for granted these days.

On 12/25/24 4:55 PM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 12:27:27 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> As a libertarian, my favourite argument against libertarianism, is that
>>> it is very unstable, and very likely to be attacked from without, or
>>> over time, to be converted into kingdoms with serfs.
>>
>> Libertarians have a lot of faith in mankind that I don't share. Then
>> there
>> is the problem that many of the libertarians I've know IRL tend to be
>> nutters.
>
> This is interesting! I am very much in favour of libertarian, and by
> extension _decentralization_ because of a lack of faith in mankind!

Decentralization CAN be useful, but without some kind
of 'center' it seems to go very bad. Then we're back
to the old city-state wars again ...

> I often criticize socialists for their unreasonable trust in some 100%
> fair human being, not being corrupted and turning their socialist utopia
> into an authoritarian nightmare.

'Socialism' requires a lot of denial ...

> Please tell me more about libertarians faith in man kind since that is
> so opposite my own position, yet, I do call myself a libertarian.
>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)
>>
>> At least he stood out and became a little less blueish over the years.
>> The
>> Libertarian Party typically gets 3% of the vote but outdid itself this
>> year with 0.42% after nominating a pro-choice gay. The LP in this state
>> ignored him completely.
>
> I think as a libertarian, I cannot participate in political parties.
> Nietzsche warned against parties and saw them as a threat against
> democracy. I agree with him completely. I think libertarianism is not
> compatible with parties and trying to change the system from within.
> That will just lead to them becoming corrupted over time and diluted to
> some other form of ism.

'Parties' suck - but I think *that* kind of civil war
still beats the real kind.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:51:09 +0100, D wrote:

> I thought about buying a cheap canoe for fishing, but I am worried about
> it not being light enough, or stable enough. I like to stand up when
> throwing the bait out. I thought about perhaps adding some kind of
> crossbar to the canoe to stabilize it. Another option I thought about
> was some kind of inflatable boat. But that would then mean I need a
> pump, and spend 15-20 minutes inflating it etc.

I've seen Sears' 'Sairy Gamp' at the Adirondack Museum. I'm not sure I
would even like to get in it.

https://advancedelements.confluenceoutdoor.com/en-us/products/
advancedframetm-elite-kayak-with-pump/AE1012-OG-E-P

Not that exact model but I have an older version. I also got the optional
keel for a little more stability. It pumps up quickly with two main side
tubes and ports on the decks and coaming. I've never fished from it.

> What I'm envisioning with the light weight canoe is that I could just
> have it by the lake, cover it with a tarp and use it when I need to.
> Since it would be "just" a canoe, no one would steal it.

When I lived in New Hampshire I built a 8' stitch-and-glue pram in a
second floor apartment. It was a very rainy spring and I was bored. It fit
in the back of my pickup, which was handy, and in a small rented storage
locker since there was no way I was going to carry it back up the stairs.

Mostly I rowed but I did have one memorable fishing experience. I thought
I'd hooked a lunker but when I got it close to the boat it was a snapping
turtle. The boat wasn't big enough for both of us so I cut the line.

It was fun. I could row around the rivers and the Great Bay. You had to
watch the time since it was all tidal. When I left NH I left it on the
beach above high tide with the oars and other accessories. I hope someone
got use of it.

On 12/25/24 6:30 AM, D wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 22:46:42 +0100, D wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 15:21:51 +0100, D wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We will see. When the wife drags me on a trip to the US, we'll stay
>>>>> for 2-3 weeks atleast and then there will be plenty of scouting.
>>>>
>>>> That's the condensed version. In '88 I spend from May to October
>>>> scouting out the US west of Texas. I'd already poked around the eastern
>>>> states extensively.  It's a big place :)
>>>
>>> This is the truth! And it will become bigger still, when Canada joins
>>> the union! ;)
>>
>> To say nothing of Greenland. I'm surprised Denmark got its hackles up. A
>> cash sale versus pouring in a few billion kroner a year? It must have
>> something to do with Denmark's long history of losing real estate; they
>> want to hang on to the little they have.
>
> This is ridiuclous! Greenland is just losing them money, and should a
> war happen, they have _no_ capability of defending it either as one of
> the tiniest countries on the planet. They should sell it while they are
> ahead, or possibly bargain to sell the country, while retaining rights
> to oil and minerals, if that is why they are holding back. Maybe they
> expect hueg oil, gas and mineral findings? But if so, why haven't they
> exploited those?

Denmark just decided to put a billion into Greenland's
defense. That'll be the Danish portion. Trump's little
ruse worked - and FAST.

There have LONG been deals with the US mil ... numerous
bases in strategic locations. This can be expanded (though
kinda quietly for reasons of national pride).

The Greenlanders themselves - sorry, but it IS a low-income
proposition. Fish, some minerals, no transport, no infrastructure,
no way to pull it together ......

They'll have to wait until it all melts. Geologists say it
will have a huge long lake in the middle. Prime post-warming
real-estate ! Condos, hotels, mansions :-)

>> I was surprised when I read the suicide rate in Greenland peaks in the
>> summer. I guess it's easier to stay drunk in the winter without the light
>> hurting your hungover eyes.
>
> Be careful! Sweden has been rumoured to be very fond of suicide, but
> I've heard that it is a modern myth, and that there aren't in fact that
> many more suicides per capita, compared with other countries.

Maybe the threat of being hacked-up by Islamists in
the streets has perked 'em up ? Nothing like a little
danger to add value to life :-)

From what I can tell, for a good generation or so
Sweden had become "Just TOO Boring" - everything
was fair and safe and taken-care-of. This sort of
'utopia' may NOT be so good for humans.

"She was Karving her initials on the møøse with the
sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush given her
by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and
star of many Norwegian møvies" :-)

>> I think it was Ernest Gann who talked about flying transports in WWII and
>> refueling in Greenland. The fjords looked all the same; pick the wrong
>> one and you were screwed.

"Earth" it ... an insanely rough, brutal, depressing
coastline. Not a place for humans. MAYbe after the
Big Melt ......

> Sounds reasonable! Did you know that the vikings had farms in greenland?
> I wonder how that was possible, since the only thing that changes the
> weather is cars. Hmm. ;)

Yea, they DID have farms - and then there was a cold
wave and they all starved.

Today Eric the Red would own "Radical Red's Used
Car & Truck Emporium" :-)

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:55:24 +0100, D wrote:

> Please tell me more about libertarians faith in man kind since that is
> so opposite my own position, yet, I do call myself a libertarian.

I don't know if you've seen https://www.lewrockwell.com/ . That certainly
isn't the only libertarian site and not all the authors are particularly
libertarian but it reflects the anarcho-capitalism that's associated with
the label.

There have been some twists along the way. I like to call it the War of
the Murrays. Murray Rothbard was from the Austrian School, following
Mises. That's the Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell branch. Murray Bookchin was left
all the way and built on some of the American individualist anarchists
like Tucker and Spooner. Also anti-government but also anti-capitalist.

You get some odd crossovers like the Mises Institute publishing Carson.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carson

So, like many thing US libertarians might be a little different breed of
cat.

My view of the anarcho-capitalists are people who want to be happy
capitalist in a completely free market with everyone playing by the rules,
and no taxes. Oh, and legalize marijuana while we're at it. That's lead to
a certain association of libertarians with dopers. The fly in the
ointment?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Non-aggression_principle

I grew up in a town of around 2000 that had town meetings as made famous
by Norman Rockwell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Speech_(painting)

Did I mention feuding farmers? I find distributism fascinating but it,
too, would require a better world than several thousand years of history
suggests.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism

Again without regard to theology I would say Leo XIII had more on the ball
than the current resident of the Vatican.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:52:05 +0100, D wrote:

> This is the truth! When I decide to go to a museum, I like having at
> least a day to really explore it! I do not like rushing through it in an
> hour or two. This is not so good.

If you ever get up that way...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Henry_Ford

Yes, it does have a restaurant. It also has a test tube alleged to contain
Edison's dying breath as well as a flying car.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Flivver

Almost 100 years and I still don't have my flying car.

On 2024-12-24, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> Pike is a very nice fish for cooking! Another advantage with winter is
> that there are no ticks! =D

My dictionary says that pike is the same fish I know from back in
Denmark as "gedde". It may be tasty but is full of small, semisoft bones
that stick in your throat. Impossible to clean it to avoid theose bones.
So mostly good for making fish mousse ("brochettes"?).

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 23:05:13 +0100, D wrote:

> aha. Would that even be noticeable among the millions in the US? Give
> them a bottle of vodka or two, and they will take care of themselves.

Big political problem... There are some Inuit in Alaska that are usually
referred to as Alaska Natives rather than Native Americans but they still
fall under the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Would the Greenland Inuit be
Indians or Danes?

> The most "weird" thing I had yesterday as part of the swedish tradition
> was sop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sop and hte liquid used is the fat
> from the christmas ham (julskinka)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_ham .

Many of our meals involved gravy and my father would always sop it up with
bread at the end of the meal. He died of a myocardial infarction.
Connection? My grandfather reportedly favored ham fat and garlic as a
sandwich spread.

I sometimes get ham slices since a whole ham is more than I want to live
on for days. I did keep the roast boar tradition but it was a pork
tenderloin rather than ham. That was a miscalculation. I thought Christmas
was tomorrow and planned to cook the sauerbraten. However I wound up with
leftover pig today. The nice thing about sauerbraten is a day or a week
more soaking in the marinade only make it better.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 20:04:44 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> There is large-L Libertarian and small-l libertarian. I tend to fall
> into the latter group.

"It Usually Begins with Ayn Rand" Tuccille's book is from '71 when the LP
was coalescing and is a not very reverent look at the founders.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 20:34:13 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> They'll have to wait until it all melts. Geologists say it will have
> a huge long lake in the middle. Prime post-warming real-estate !
> Condos, hotels, mansions

There will be some good stuff to find.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacier_Girl

iirc there are some transport planes buried too. Fly up the wrong fjord
and you had a real problem.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 03:06:59 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> My dictionary says that pike is the same fish I know from back in
> Denmark as "gedde". It may be tasty but is full of small, semisoft bones
> that stick in your throat. Impossible to clean it to avoid theose bones.
> So mostly good for making fish mousse ("brochettes"?).

That's the problem. I used to catch chain pickerel, sort of a small pike.
They were good but you had to be careful.

And, for Linux content, you can download Pike.

https://pike.lysator.liu.se/

I played with it years ago. It had some nice features but Python
completely overshadowed it.

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/25/24 4:55 PM, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 12:27:27 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a libertarian, my favourite argument against libertarianism, is that
>>>> it is very unstable, and very likely to be attacked from without, or
>>>> over time, to be converted into kingdoms with serfs.
>>>
>>> Libertarians have a lot of faith in mankind that I don't share. Then there
>>> is the problem that many of the libertarians I've know IRL tend to be
>>> nutters.
>>
>> This is interesting! I am very much in favour of libertarian, and by
>> extension _decentralization_ because of a lack of faith in mankind!
>
> Decentralization CAN be useful, but without some kind
> of 'center' it seems to go very bad. Then we're back
> to the old city-state wars again ...

You are talking about external countries and parties attacking, and the
decentralized libertarian community not being able to defend itself?

>> I often criticize socialists for their unreasonable trust in some 100% fair
>> human being, not being corrupted and turning their socialist utopia into an
>> authoritarian nightmare.
>
> 'Socialism' requires a lot of denial ...

This is the truth!

>> Please tell me more about libertarians faith in man kind since that is so
>> opposite my own position, yet, I do call myself a libertarian.
>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stan_Jones_(Libertarian_politician)
>>>
>>> At least he stood out and became a little less blueish over the years. The
>>> Libertarian Party typically gets 3% of the vote but outdid itself this
>>> year with 0.42% after nominating a pro-choice gay. The LP in this state
>>> ignored him completely.
>>
>> I think as a libertarian, I cannot participate in political parties.
>> Nietzsche warned against parties and saw them as a threat against
>> democracy. I agree with him completely. I think libertarianism is not
>> compatible with parties and trying to change the system from within. That
>> will just lead to them becoming corrupted over time and diluted to some
>> other form of ism.
>
> 'Parties' suck - but I think *that* kind of civil war
> still beats the real kind.

You are a very mature man. People call me immature for not voting, I call
myself principled. ;) My hope is that once I've convinced the world of not
voting, the state will disintegrate naturally as people lose interest in
it, and just plain stop paying their taxes. ;)

Jokes aside, I do not vote because I do not want to use violence or threat
of violence to impose my will on others. If I want a change in the rules,
I prefer to use lawyers and carve out the changes I want (ideally). The
established parties offer me nothing I want, regardless of color, so why
should I waste my time and also, by accident, serve to legitimize them?

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:51:09 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> I thought about buying a cheap canoe for fishing, but I am worried about
>> it not being light enough, or stable enough. I like to stand up when
>> throwing the bait out. I thought about perhaps adding some kind of
>> crossbar to the canoe to stabilize it. Another option I thought about
>> was some kind of inflatable boat. But that would then mean I need a
>> pump, and spend 15-20 minutes inflating it etc.
>
> I've seen Sears' 'Sairy Gamp' at the Adirondack Museum. I'm not sure I
> would even like to get in it.
>
> https://advancedelements.confluenceoutdoor.com/en-us/products/
> advancedframetm-elite-kayak-with-pump/AE1012-OG-E-P
>
> Not that exact model but I have an older version. I also got the optional
> keel for a little more stability. It pumps up quickly with two main side
> tubes and ports on the decks and coaming. I've never fished from it.

Hmm, but it seems to small! I would feel awfully cramped trying to handle
a 4 kg pike in that little thing. On the other hand, from a size and
weight point of view, it is good. I imagine that a 2 seat canoe would be
too heavy to carry around by one person unless it's some hyper modern
model made out of some magical material.

>> What I'm envisioning with the light weight canoe is that I could just
>> have it by the lake, cover it with a tarp and use it when I need to.
>> Since it would be "just" a canoe, no one would steal it.
>
> When I lived in New Hampshire I built a 8' stitch-and-glue pram in a
> second floor apartment. It was a very rainy spring and I was bored. It fit
> in the back of my pickup, which was handy, and in a small rented storage
> locker since there was no way I was going to carry it back up the stairs.
>
> Mostly I rowed but I did have one memorable fishing experience. I thought
> I'd hooked a lunker but when I got it close to the boat it was a snapping
> turtle. The boat wasn't big enough for both of us so I cut the line.
>
> It was fun. I could row around the rivers and the Great Bay. You had to
> watch the time since it was all tidal. When I left NH I left it on the
> beach above high tide with the oars and other accessories. I hope someone
> got use of it.

What a shame! It would have made a beautiful pet I imagine! Just think
about it, you walking your turtle, when everyone else just is walking
their dog or cat. You would have stolen the show!

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/25/24 6:30 AM, D wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 22:46:42 +0100, D wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 15:21:51 +0100, D wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> We will see. When the wife drags me on a trip to the US, we'll stay
>>>>>> for 2-3 weeks atleast and then there will be plenty of scouting.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's the condensed version. In '88 I spend from May to October
>>>>> scouting out the US west of Texas. I'd already poked around the eastern
>>>>> states extensively.  It's a big place :)
>>>>
>>>> This is the truth! And it will become bigger still, when Canada joins
>>>> the union! ;)
>>>
>>> To say nothing of Greenland. I'm surprised Denmark got its hackles up. A
>>> cash sale versus pouring in a few billion kroner a year? It must have
>>> something to do with Denmark's long history of losing real estate; they
>>> want to hang on to the little they have.
>>
>> This is ridiuclous! Greenland is just losing them money, and should a war
>> happen, they have _no_ capability of defending it either as one of the
>> tiniest countries on the planet. They should sell it while they are ahead,
>> or possibly bargain to sell the country, while retaining rights to oil and
>> minerals, if that is why they are holding back. Maybe they expect hueg oil,
>> gas and mineral findings? But if so, why haven't they exploited those?
>
> Denmark just decided to put a billion into Greenland's
> defense. That'll be the Danish portion. Trump's little
> ruse worked - and FAST.

This is the truth! The scandinavians are a naive and easily scared lot, as
can be seen by sweden joining Nato in record time.

> There have LONG been deals with the US mil ... numerous
> bases in strategic locations. This can be expanded (though
> kinda quietly for reasons of national pride).
>
> The Greenlanders themselves - sorry, but it IS a low-income
> proposition. Fish, some minerals, no transport, no infrastructure,
> no way to pull it together ......
>
> They'll have to wait until it all melts. Geologists say it
> will have a huge long lake in the middle. Prime post-warming
> real-estate ! Condos, hotels, mansions :-)
>
>>> I was surprised when I read the suicide rate in Greenland peaks in the
>>> summer. I guess it's easier to stay drunk in the winter without the light
>>> hurting your hungover eyes.
>>
>> Be careful! Sweden has been rumoured to be very fond of suicide, but I've
>> heard that it is a modern myth, and that there aren't in fact that many
>> more suicides per capita, compared with other countries.
>
>
> Maybe the threat of being hacked-up by Islamists in
> the streets has perked 'em up ? Nothing like a little
> danger to add value to life :-)

;) I moved away instead. But yes, plenty of car burning going on from time
to time as soon as someone disagrees with islam.

> From what I can tell, for a good generation or so
> Sweden had become "Just TOO Boring" - everything
> was fair and safe and taken-care-of. This sort of
> 'utopia' may NOT be so good for humans.

Haha, socialist utopia maybe. If you are a billionaire, sweden is actually
quite a nice country without wealth tax and inheritance tax. It also tends
to be fairly easy to get time with the leaders, since it is such a small
country and they want to tan themselves in the glory of a billionaire in
order to secure well paid consultancy gigs after their political careers
are over.

If you are a worker, you'll be taxed to death at 50%-65% so forget about
trying to save or move upwards on the social ladder. I think that is
unfair, but the socialists apparently think its great.

> "She was Karving her initials on the møøse with the
> sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush given her
> by Svenge - her brother-in-law - an Oslo dentist and
> star of many Norwegian møvies" :-)

Sorry?

>>> I think it was Ernest Gann who talked about flying transports in WWII and
>>> refueling in Greenland. The fjords looked all the same; pick the wrong one
>>> and you were screwed.
>
> "Earth" it ... an insanely rough, brutal, depressing
> coastline. Not a place for humans. MAYbe after the
> Big Melt ......
>
>> Sounds reasonable! Did you know that the vikings had farms in greenland? I
>> wonder how that was possible, since the only thing that changes the weather
>> is cars. Hmm. ;)
>
> Yea, they DID have farms - and then there was a cold
> wave and they all starved.
>
> Today Eric the Red would own "Radical Red's Used
> Car & Truck Emporium" :-)

Could very well be true!

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:55:24 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Please tell me more about libertarians faith in man kind since that is
>> so opposite my own position, yet, I do call myself a libertarian.
>
> I don't know if you've seen https://www.lewrockwell.com/ . That certainly
> isn't the only libertarian site and not all the authors are particularly
> libertarian but it reflects the anarcho-capitalism that's associated with
> the label.

Oh yes, I've seen and read. When I was young I was all about rockwell,
mises, fee, the cato institute etc. But as I got older, life got in the
way, so I find myself minding my own business (my actual business) more,
and being less involved in ideology.

> There have been some twists along the way. I like to call it the War of
> the Murrays. Murray Rothbard was from the Austrian School, following
> Mises. That's the Ron Paul/Lew Rockwell branch. Murray Bookchin was left
> all the way and built on some of the American individualist anarchists
> like Tucker and Spooner. Also anti-government but also anti-capitalist.
>
> You get some odd crossovers like the Mises Institute publishing Carson.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Carson
>
> So, like many thing US libertarians might be a little different breed of
> cat.

I find left libertarians such a weird, contradictory concept. I have never
been able to understand that branch of the family tree.

> My view of the anarcho-capitalists are people who want to be happy
> capitalist in a completely free market with everyone playing by the rules,

Yes!

> and no taxes. Oh, and legalize marijuana while we're at it. That's lead to

Yes! Well, as long as you don't smoke on my property. I can't stand the
smell. I'll stay with beer, that's good enough for me!

> a certain association of libertarians with dopers. The fly in the
> ointment?

I think the dopers will eventually take care of themselves and slowly
disappear. ;)

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Non-aggression_principle
>
> I grew up in a town of around 2000 that had town meetings as made famous
> by Norman Rockwell.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Speech_(painting)

Ahh, so that's what you look like in real life + bear and pony tail? ;)

> Did I mention feuding farmers? I find distributism fascinating but it,
> too, would require a better world than several thousand years of history
> suggests.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distributism
>
> Again without regard to theology I would say Leo XIII had more on the ball
> than the current resident of the Vatican.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 22:52:05 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> This is the truth! When I decide to go to a museum, I like having at
>> least a day to really explore it! I do not like rushing through it in an
>> hour or two. This is not so good.
>
> If you ever get up that way...
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Henry_Ford
>
> Yes, it does have a restaurant. It also has a test tube alleged to contain
> Edison's dying breath as well as a flying car.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Flivver
>
> Almost 100 years and I still don't have my flying car.
>

Wow! Talk about a visionary! He took the logical step from everyone owning
a car, to everyone owning a plane! I would like to own a flying car. Even
a helicopter I would be content with! Imagine... then I could build a
_real_ fortress of solitude, far, far away from any public roads!

But things are brightening. Maybe we can buy one of those big flying
drones that can also take people?

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:

> On 2024-12-24, D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> Pike is a very nice fish for cooking! Another advantage with winter is
>> that there are no ticks! =D
>
> My dictionary says that pike is the same fish I know from back in
> Denmark as "gedde". It may be tasty but is full of small, semisoft bones
> that stick in your throat. Impossible to clean it to avoid theose bones.
> So mostly good for making fish mousse ("brochettes"?).
>

This is the truth! Gädda (in swedish)! The bones are not a problem if you
clean it correctly. You can easily cut out most of the bones. It takes me
about 10 minutes or so, possibly 15 if it is a smaller fish, to clean it
without bones.

The bigger the fish, the easier it is to clean without bones, and the less
waste you'll have. I would not recommend going below 1 kg, then it starts
to get annoying. 1.5-2 kg is my sweet spot for a nice, tasty gädda! =D

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 23:05:13 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> aha. Would that even be noticeable among the millions in the US? Give
>> them a bottle of vodka or two, and they will take care of themselves.
>
> Big political problem... There are some Inuit in Alaska that are usually
> referred to as Alaska Natives rather than Native Americans but they still
> fall under the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Would the Greenland Inuit be
> Indians or Danes?

Hmm, good question! I'd say BIA.

>> The most "weird" thing I had yesterday as part of the swedish tradition
>> was sop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sop and hte liquid used is the fat
>> from the christmas ham (julskinka)
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_ham .
>
> Many of our meals involved gravy and my father would always sop it up with
> bread at the end of the meal. He died of a myocardial infarction.
> Connection? My grandfather reportedly favored ham fat and garlic as a
> sandwich spread.

Nah... that's just propaganda from the vegetable farmers! ;) On the german
side of the world, the best spread is Schmalz! A super invention!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmaltz

> I sometimes get ham slices since a whole ham is more than I want to live
> on for days. I did keep the roast boar tradition but it was a pork
> tenderloin rather than ham. That was a miscalculation. I thought Christmas
> was tomorrow and planned to cook the sauerbraten. However I wound up with
> leftover pig today. The nice thing about sauerbraten is a day or a week
> more soaking in the marinade only make it better.

1.5 year ago I had smoked, bbq boar. It was divine!! My wifes cousin told
my wife that he will take me hunting in 2025. That would be very nice! I
hope it happens, I'm very excited! I suspect it will be birds, but let's
see.

What we do with our left over ham is to freeze it, and then use it as
filler in crepe or pyttipanna or other food during all of january and
february. When we were 4 celebrating christmas, the ham would actually
finished fairly quickly, but now we're only 2, so it takes a while.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:44:57 +0100, D wrote:

> Wow! Talk about a visionary! He took the logical step from everyone
> owning a car, to everyone owning a plane! I would like to own a flying
> car. Even a helicopter I would be content with! Imagine... then I could
> build a _real_ fortress of solitude, far, far away from any public
> roads!

Now there's a scary thought. When I was learning to fly a fixed wing the
person teaching me, an ag pilot with several thousand hours in the air,
was trying to tech himself to fly a helicopter. He was as frustrated as I
was. The motivation was to allow precise insecticide application rather
than the fly low and open the valves technique.

It was interesting but I realized there were practical problems. With only
VFR you were completely dependent on the weather. With IFR you had a
little more flexibility but you weren't going to keep schedules. The other
problem is after you fly to Oshkosh you find yourself at a small airfield
10 miles from town.

The light aircraft industry has had its dreams, particularly after WWII
with returning servicemen but they never worked out. The FAA came up with
a sport pilot license which only required a drivers license and not a
medical certificate and shorter training. It had limitations but the major
problem was a 1320 maximum takeoff weight. Most existing planes to make
that limit are Piper Cubs, Taylorcraft, Ercoupes, and other antiques,
often taildraggers for added excitement. Cessna 150s, Piper Tomahawks, and
other common training planes are too heavy. There are some new planes that
meet the requirements. Cessna tried with the 162, a cut down 152, but at
$150,000 it didn't sell.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:28:17 +0100, D wrote:

> Hmm, but it seems to small! I would feel awfully cramped trying to
> handle a 4 kg pike in that little thing. On the other hand, from a size
> and weight point of view, it is good. I imagine that a 2 seat canoe
> would be too heavy to carry around by one person unless it's some hyper
> modern model made out of some magical material.

My father bought a 12' aluminum boat, a common size, with a 7 1/2 HP
Evinrude outboard. Memories of horsing it onto the car top racks
discouraged me from getting too big. The alternative is a trailer but
that's another complication. I can inflate the kayak, throw it in the
water, and paddle away while people are still waiting in line at the ramp.

The problem with the kayak is there aren't that many interesting lakes and
they tend to be infested with power boats and JetSkis. The rivers are nice
but I can't paddle upstream effectively locally.

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:20:53 +0100, D wrote:

> You are talking about external countries and parties attacking, and the
> decentralized libertarian community not being able to defend itself?

Or the next town over the hill. iirc there are quite a few castles in
Europe that weren't built to be scenic attractions. What has changed? It's
not a European trait either; modern Africa anyone?

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:51:28 +0100, D wrote:

> Nah... that's just propaganda from the vegetable farmers! On the german
> side of the world, the best spread is Schmalz! A super invention!
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schmaltz

I've seen that in the Jewish section of supermarket aisles. I think the
Jews have switched to Crisco since it;s pareve. What you do see more
frequently is lard (manteca) used in Hispanic cooking.

My mother would make suet pudding for Christmas. I guess she believed in
truth in advertising since a similar desert is called 'plum pudding'
despite there being no plums involved. A guest had two helpings and asked
for the recipe of the delicious stuff. When she started with 'You take 2
pounds of suet..' he excused himself. Sound of retching could be heard
from the bathroom.

Looking back a plateful swimming in hard sauce was a little rich. It was
washed down with several rounds of Angel Tips, crème de cacao with heavy
cream floated on top. Good thing Christmas only came once a year.

On 2024-12-26, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:44:57 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> Wow! Talk about a visionary! He took the logical step from everyone
>> owning a car, to everyone owning a plane! I would like to own a flying
>> car. Even a helicopter I would be content with! Imagine... then I could
>> build a _real_ fortress of solitude, far, far away from any public
>> roads!
>
> Now there's a scary thought. When I was learning to fly a fixed wing the
> person teaching me, an ag pilot with several thousand hours in the air,
> was trying to tech himself to fly a helicopter. He was as frustrated as I
> was. The motivation was to allow precise insecticide application rather
> than the fly low and open the valves technique.
>
> It was interesting but I realized there were practical problems. With only
> VFR you were completely dependent on the weather. With IFR you had a
> little more flexibility but you weren't going to keep schedules.

Yes, weather is a biggie. And IFR isn't a magic pill, especially in
a small plane without de/anti-icing equipment. If the freezing level
is below the MEA but the ceiling is high enough to avoid terrain,
IFR is not an option, but VFR is.

> The other problem is after you fly to Oshkosh you find yourself at a
> small airfield 10 miles from town.

That's the other biggie. When planning a trip, an airport's proximity
to a town is a big factor.

Still, I hope flying never gains mass appeal. Can you imagine the sky
filled with the kind of idiots you see on the road?

--
/~\ Charlie Gibbs | Growth for the sake of
\ / <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> | growth is the ideology
X I'm really at ac.dekanfrus | of the cancer cell.
/ \ if you read it the right way. | -- Edward Abbey

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 19:51:23 GMT, Charlie Gibbs wrote:

> Still, I hope flying never gains mass appeal. Can you imagine the sky
> filled with the kind of idiots you see on the road?

There is that. Personally I put in the hours, took the written, and never
followed through. There were days and days and on the not 100% days I
wasn't confident I would do the right thing when the shit hit the fan. Or
the fan stopped working for that matter.

Rationally I know a plane is about a thousand times safer than doing 100
mph on the interstate on a bike but I never claimed to be rational. I'm
not sure my programming is really rational, but that's a philosophical
argument.

On 12/26/24 2:15 PM, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 12:20:53 +0100, D wrote:
>
>> You are talking about external countries and parties attacking, and the
>> decentralized libertarian community not being able to defend itself?
>
> Or the next town over the hill. iirc there are quite a few castles in
> Europe that weren't built to be scenic attractions. What has changed? It's
> not a European trait either; modern Africa anyone?

Read up on the Italian and Greek city-state eras.
The "town over the hill" was always attacking.