Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
> Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
>>But redhat has funding from and obligations to groups that run large
>>datacenters that need to be managed from control desks based on
>>parameterized templates, and to support these needs, they built
>>something that works for that crowd.
>
> And still those server people complain that systemd feels more like
> its geared for desktop machines. Noone cares how long it takes to boot
> a server,

??? the end users of whatever service the server is providing are likely
to care. Certainly if one of our dev servers (e.g. git, wiki, bug
tracker) has to be rebooted in the middle of the the day[1] then work
will gradually grind to a halt until it’s back.

[1] avoided if possible of course, but sometimes shit happens.

> and many server jockeys would love the possibility to turn
> off the parallelism of systemd when booting (for reproducibility,
> sacrificing speed).

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

On 09/10/2024 10:50, Nuno Silva wrote:
> On 2024-10-09, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> On 8 Oct 2024 20:38:30 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>>
>>> I've used both and don't really understand the hate for systemd but I've
>>> never been burned by it.
>>
>> systemd-haters are like the anti-fluoridationists of the open-source
>> world.
>
> Is this going the Wayland route, where anyone complaining that there is
> something they can't do in Wayland, or that specific X11 features are
> required for their workflow, is immediatelly met with such "you're
> anti-fluoridation!" attacks?
>
Actually, being no fan of X windows, I am hoping that Wayland appears
sooner rather than later.

But there is a slew of hate being sponsored by politicians and political
activists - mainly, but not exclusively, from the Left...

Deplorables
Terfs
Transphobes
Islamophobes
Misogynists
Racists
Homophobes
Climate deniers
anti-fluoridationists
Anti-Vaxxers
Hard right extremists

None of this is shades of grey, Its all ArtStuden™ Boolean thinking.

You cant say that thinking people from different cultures are a bit
different is 'a lttle bit racist'

Its always been there in the Soviet inspired AgitProp. Back in the day
there were

Blacklegs
Scabs
Scum.
Pigs

Lately its being ramped up rather massively. Even in the field of
software engineering from what one hears.

Marxism and its descendants have always used emotion rather than reason
to cancel those they felt were a danger.

--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 09/10/2024 11:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
>> Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> wrote:
>>> But redhat has funding from and obligations to groups that run large
>>> datacenters that need to be managed from control desks based on
>>> parameterized templates, and to support these needs, they built
>>> something that works for that crowd.
>>
>> And still those server people complain that systemd feels more like
>> its geared for desktop machines. Noone cares how long it takes to boot
>> a server,
>
> ??? the end users of whatever service the server is providing are likely
> to care. Certainly if one of our dev servers (e.g. git, wiki, bug
> tracker) has to be rebooted in the middle of the the day[1] then work
> will gradually grind to a halt until it’s back.
>
Conversely with SSDS and stripped down to daemons only, a server doesn't
have that much TO bring up.

> [1] avoided if possible of course, but sometimes shit happens.
>
>> and many server jockeys would love the possibility to turn
>> off the parallelism of systemd when booting (for reproducibility,
>> sacrificing speed).
>
What I dislike mainly is that its code for an ego trip. Log files that
need a program to list them? Why?
New code that breaks existing startup scripts in new and exciting ways
and a fairly low level of community knowledge makes for a bad user
experience.

--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

Lars Poulsen wrote:

> Phillip Frabott wrote:
>>> I'm not going to disagree. Systemd is complicated compared to InitV.
>> That being says, it always comes down to what people like and what works
>> for them.
>
> The old stuff that we remember from our youth is easy for us; to the
> degree that we remember what we did 40 years ago, we don't need to read
> the man pages.
This. Familiarity with the old tends to make us dislike the new, my old
knowledge was applicable across xenix, OSF/1, HPUX, AIX, multiple linux
flavours

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Lately its being ramped up rather massively. Even in the field of software
> engineering from what one hears.
>
> Marxism and its descendants have always used emotion rather than reason to
> cancel those they felt were a danger.

This is the truth. But the hard fact of life is that you (and I) have to
be the ones who makes change possible, instead of complaining and
enduring.

I left corporate IT and started my own business, becaise corporate IT
became waaay too woke and leftist.

I also benefit enormously, because in my company you can be a nazi or a
socialist or a libertarian, I couldn't care less as long as you do your
job and make the customers happy.

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>I see pulse audio has been superseded...

Yes. That's when audio on my desktop has stopped working. Didnt have
the time to debug yet. So I'm joining digital Linux conferences and
meetings from a Windows machine.

And while I am at Linux ranting, can I please have my old fashioned
docking station that directly attaches to the system bus back? None of
my two USB-C Thinkpads (one with Linux, one with Windows) work
reliably with the external monitors via the USB-C dock. And I tried
numerous of them, including the 300 Euros Lenovo one that is
explicitly listed as compatible with both machines.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

Phillip Frabott <nntp@fulltermprivacy.com> wrote:
>As someone who doesn't use a distro,

You obviously have way too much time on your hands.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

Marc Haber wrote:

> can I please have my old fashioned docking station that directly
> attaches to the system bus back? None of my two USB-C Thinkpads (one
> with Linux, one with Windows) work reliably with the external
> monitors via the USB-C dock.

For many years I used Dell laptops with PCI-based docks, a few years ago
they struggled to cope with newer/larger monitors and faster USB devices.

I now have Lenovo laptops, with DP and USB-C monitors (plus a ton of
other stuff) hooked to a thunderbolt dock ... not cheap ... but it's
amazing how much power and data you can get down a single (slightly
plump) cable ... haven't tested if it works as well with Linux as it
does with Windows.

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 16:10:05 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> Familiarity with the old tends to make us dislike the new, my old
> knowledge was applicable across xenix, OSF/1, HPUX, AIX, multiple linux
> flavours

GNU Autotools was a build system compatible across all the old Unix
flavours, as well as current *nixes. It was full of workarounds for all
the little bugs and quirks in all those old flavours. Look at the
instructions if you wanted to write your own m4 macros -- they list all
the things that you’d think are reasonable and standard, but that you have
to avoid to ensure your shell-script snippets are portable across Unixes.

You probably never knew that. And nowadays, there is less and less need to
know that.

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 07:40:06 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Now Poettering has fucked off the long man years of fixing his shit
> begins.

As far as I know, he still working on it.

> I see pulse audio has been superseded...

By something that is like PulseAudio (and backward-compatible with it),
but also handles video as well.

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 13:26:58 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> Log files that need a program to list them? Why?

A program that formats timestamps in your choice of local timezone and
offers sophisticated filtering criteria to only pull out the records that
you’re interested.

Ever tried to grep through multi-million-line log files? I have.

> New code that breaks existing startup scripts in new and exciting
> ways ...

Fun fact: systemd offers better backward compatibility with sysvinit than,
say, OpenRC.

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 10:50:56 +0100, Nuno Silva wrote:

> Is this going the Wayland route, where anyone complaining that there is
> something they can't do in Wayland ...

So don’t use Wayland (or systemd). Stop complaining loudly about it.
Either that, or do something constructive like offer fixes for what you
see as deficiencies.

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 13:21:34 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> But there is a slew of hate being sponsored by politicians and political
> activists - mainly, but not exclusively, from the Left...

Who are the systemd-haters and the Wayland-haters? Are they considered
“left-wing”? By whom?

On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 02:07:14 -0400, Phillip Frabott wrote:

> Nonetheless, people should always have options.

And they do. This is Open Source: it’s essentially impossible to take
options away from people.

On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 07:53:18 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:

> And still those server people complain that systemd feels more like its
> geared for desktop machines. Noone cares how long it takes to boot a
> server, and many server jockeys would love the possibility to turn off
> the parallelism of systemd when booting (for reproducibility,
> sacrificing speed).

I can’t see any option for doing that globally, but you could use drop-in
config files to temorarily force ordering on particular services that
might be giving you trouble, so you can properly debug their dependencies.
For example, I soon learned the difference between
“Requires=mysql.service” and “After=mysql.service”, and why, in my case, I
needed both ...

The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
> On 09/10/2024 11:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
>>> and many server jockeys would love the possibility to turn
>>> off the parallelism of systemd when booting (for reproducibility,
>>> sacrificing speed).
>
> What I dislike mainly is that its code for an ego trip. Log files that
> need a program to list them?

You always used a program to read log files, it was just tail or less
rather than journalctl.

> Why?

Much same reasons that databases aren’t text files. If you don’t like it
you can have the logs directed to traditional text files (this was the
default configuration in Debian for a while).

--
https://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/

Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> writes:
>> On 09/10/2024 11:36, Richard Kettlewell wrote:
>>> Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> writes:
>>>> and many server jockeys would love the possibility to turn
>>>> off the parallelism of systemd when booting (for reproducibility,
>>>> sacrificing speed).
>>
>> What I dislike mainly is that its code for an ego trip. Log files that
>> need a program to list them?
>
>You always used a program to read log files, it was just tail or less
>rather than journalctl.
>
>> Why?
>
>Much same reasons that databases aren’t text files. If you don’t like it
>you can have the logs directed to traditional text files (this was the
>default configuration in Debian for a while).

And I must admit that it is already taking me years to get rid of less
for log inspection. I have made progress since my personal laptop got
rid of traditional syslog to force me to use the new methods. I think
I am about 60 % there.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Oct 2024 07:53:18 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:
>
>> And still those server people complain that systemd feels more like its
>> geared for desktop machines. Noone cares how long it takes to boot a
>> server, and many server jockeys would love the possibility to turn off
>> the parallelism of systemd when booting (for reproducibility,
>> sacrificing speed).
>
>I can’t see any option for doing that globally, but you could use drop-in
>config files to temorarily force ordering on particular services that
>might be giving you trouble, so you can properly debug their dependencies.
>For example, I soon learned the difference between
>“Requires=mysql.service” and “After=mysql.service”, and why, in my case, I
>needed both ...

I have only been using systemd for more than half of a decade and
those pesky little things still get to me.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>On Wed, 9 Oct 2024 02:07:14 -0400, Phillip Frabott wrote:
>
>> Nonetheless, people should always have options.
>
>And they do. This is Open Source: it’s essentially impossible to take
>options away from people.

It is somehow taking away options if exercising those options makes
the workload increase tenfold. I used to be one of those "I'll compile
at least the services the machine is there for myself" but it took me
about a year to understand that those people who make those packages
have way better knowledge about their programs than I'll ever have,
and that I should not afford to ignore the knowledge they put into
their packages. You can even learn more than just something from using
those well-done packages.

That was like 25 years ago.

Greetings
Marc
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marc Haber | " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Rhein-Neckar, DE | Beginning of Wisdom " |
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 6224 1600402

On 09/10/2024 21:06, D wrote:
>
>
> On Wed, 9 Oct 2024, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>
>> Lately its being ramped up rather massively. Even in the field of
>> software engineering from what one hears.
>>
>> Marxism and its descendants have always used emotion rather than
>> reason to cancel those they felt were a danger.
>
> This is the truth. But the hard fact of life is that you (and I) have to
> be the ones who makes change possible, instead of complaining and
> enduring.
>
> I left corporate IT and started my own business, becaise corporate IT
> became waaay too woke and leftist.
>
> I also benefit enormously, because in my company you can be a nazi or a
> socialist or a libertarian, I couldn't care less as long as you do your
> job and make the customers happy.

Me too.

--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 10/10/2024 02:30, Marc Haber wrote:
> Phillip Frabott <nntp@fulltermprivacy.com> wrote:
>> As someone who doesn't use a distro,
>
> You obviously have way too much time on your hands.
>

Or, perhaps I'm just old and set in my ways.

When I got started using Linux (We are talking late December 1991 a few
days before Christmas) there was no such thing as Distros. By time the
first pre-compiled GNU/Linux on disc came out (I personally don't
consider them distros, but to each their own), which was Yggdrasil (Dec
1992) and SLS (Aug 1992), I had already compiled and built the Linux
kernel about 12 times and GNU to replace minix about 5 times. So I never
really needed to use Yggdrasil or SLS and thought of them as for people
who were not fortunate enough to have a minix system at their disposal.
The first "distro" that I actually considered a distro was Debian v1
(June 1996 i believe) but wouldn't become more mainstream until almost a
year later when Debian v1.3 beta was released in April 1997 and RTM 1.3
released in June 1997. There was also Red Hat that became more popular
near the end of 1996 (can't remember what month). But all that was more
then a few years after I started using Linux and GNU so there was no
real options other then compile your own. It's hard to kick a habit once
you start it. Plus, when you build it yourself you know what you get inside.

And once you build the system up, maintaining it over the long haul
takes less then an hour a month in most cases. In fact, most updates use
the exact same build commands between versions so if you just build a
script for each source package, you can just download the updated
source, change the version number in a variable of your script and then
just make a shell script to reference the scripts that were updated and
run it. takes 5 minutes a month for me. I've heard horror stories of
people spending hours after a distro update because it broke things, and
they either can't go backwards or are unable to figure out what package
broke it in the first place.

One of the benefits of compiling your own system from source only is
that if something breaks, just go back to the previous source tarball
and re-install that version. I rarely have to spend much time
trouble-shooting. I hear my friends all the time who use either rolling
release distros (yeah, that's asking for trouble) or debian/ubuntu which
can have their own issues although not nearly as often, and they have
spent days trying to fix it. If I get the same issue as them, I just
re-install the old version that I compiled myself already and 5 minutes
later and a reboot I'm back up and running. But my friends don't get
that. And some of them that try to go back to a previous package have
had cases where the package manager will refuse to install because 20
other packages would have to be down-graded as well. Seems like a big
mess and waste of time for something that for me takes a few seconds to
type:

```
$> ./configure --prefix=**** --disable-static --what-ever-else; make;
make test; make install
```

and go get some coffee if it's takes more then a minute. You have more
control over the system as well. But that's just me.

--
Phillip Frabott
----------
- Adam: Is a void really a void if it returns?
- Jack: No, it's just nullspace at that point.
----------

On Thu, 10 Oct 2024 11:03:54 +0200, Marc Haber wrote:

> And I must admit that it is already taking me years to get rid of less
> for log inspection.

I am accustomed to using “more”. I tried raw “less”, and got annoyed when
it cleared the screen on exit by default. So I define this little alias
instead:

alias more='less -iX -x4'