On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly
> windows and many of the other effects.

Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
friends, not for daily use.

For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
windows that shatter when they close.

On 8/17/2024 6:52 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly
>> windows and many of the other effects.
>
> Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
> friends, not for daily use.

Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4

> For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
> windows that shatter when they close.

How about windows that when you close them burn from the top down into a
pile of ashes? Nothing makes you more productive than that.

On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.

You wish. They can’t even adapt Windows to a decent UI for handheld
gaming.

On 2024-08-17 7:23 p.m., DFS wrote:
> On 8/17/2024 6:52 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly
>>> windows and many of the other effects.
>>
>> Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
>> friends, not for daily use.
>
>
> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4

It's too bad that it wasn't a part of the eventual release of Windows; I
would have liked to have it.

>> For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
>> windows that shatter when they close.
>
> How about windows that when you close them burn from the top down into a
> pile of ashes?  Nothing makes you more productive than that.

It's cool but gets old rather quickly.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
<v9rbe7$231ol$1@dont-email.me>:

> On 8/17/2024 6:52 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>
>>> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly windows and many
>>> of the other effects.
>>
>> Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
>> friends, not for daily use.
>
>
> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4
>
>
>
>
>
>> For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
>> windows that shatter when they close.
>
> How about windows that when you close them burn from the top down into a
> pile of ashes? Nothing makes you more productive than that.

Pretty sure compiz and beryl had those effects first.

(It certainly has them now -- where is Windows?)

I just fiddled with my desktop:

$ compiz --replace
$ ccsm

I don't have wobbly windows enabled, but I have added a minimize and
close effect for positive feedback. I also configured the desktop
cube for maximum bling.

Took all of 10 minutes. How long would it take you to do the same?

--
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
OS: Linux 6.11.0-rc3 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
"Program too small to fit into memory."

On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS wrote:

> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4

"Want to know why Microsoft didn't include it? It was deemed useless for
professional work and was a waste of resources."

Every now and then M$ makes the right choice. Too bad releasing Aero
wasn't one of them.

On 2024-08-17, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly
>> windows and many of the other effects.
>
> Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
> friends, not for daily use.

Agreed.

> For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
> windows that shatter when they close.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-17 9:06 a.m., RonB wrote:
>> On 2024-08-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-16 10:28 p.m., vallor wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 21:54:50 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote in
>>>> <NpTvO.29578$8UD7.24479@fx01.iad>:
>>>>
>>>>> On 2024-08-16 8:56 p.m., vallor wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:01:09 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote
>>>>>> in <r6PvO.330854$gJuc.106524@fx10.iad>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 2024-08-16 4:26 p.m., Ulysses wrote:
>>>>>>>> Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote in
>>>>>>>> news:v9nf31$1dkqg$9@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 12:07:15 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 13:00:00 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That PeachPuff background would have burned your eyes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> You must have real trouble reading black text on white paper.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Not really, but on screens I've always preferred light text on
>>>>>>>>>>> dark background.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I tried the PeachPuff background when I read your post
>>>>>>>>>>> in a dark room, so it wasn't the best place to suddenly expose
>>>>>>>>>>> ones eyes to that!
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I get to do unexpected A/B testing. I use my Fire HD 10 tablet
>>>>>>>>>> mostly for reading Kindle books, with black text on a white
>>>>>>>>>> background. When the charge gets down to 20% it automatically goes
>>>>>>>>>> to white on black. I immediately go to Settings for I can override
>>>>>>>>>> the power saving mode until I get it on a charger. I can read the
>>>>>>>>>> white on black with no problem but I don't like it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I do agree when I wake up at 4AM and decide to read for a while the
>>>>>>>>>> glaring white tablet is a shock on my eyes until my pupils get with
>>>>>>>>>> the program.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've always used FB Reader on my tablets. Fully configurable. I use
>>>>>>>>> black on light grey mostly, and at night slide my finger down on the
>>>>>>>>> left to reduce the brightness.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sometimes I'll find HTML novels (e.g. Edgar Rice Burroughs) on
>>>>>>>>> Gutenberg, and they're usually kind of a dark brown font on cream
>>>>>>>>> yellow pages.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Try 1984 you might learn something because you are currently living
>>>>>>>> it.Spend less time trying to make it look pretty and more time trying
>>>>>>>> to understand it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Except that most people who try Linux spend most of their time making
>>>>>>> it look pretty.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <sigh> Here we go again...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This last week, I've been spending most of my time writing a book, and
>>>>>> using the Unix typesetting tools of yore to get the job done faster
>>>>>> than with a wysiwyg editor.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most people who _try_ Linux would be newcomers, who probably spend
>>>>>> "most of their time" on support forums...if needed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 🧘️
>>>>>
>>>>> Notice the verb _try_. It is true of people who are just getting
>>>>> acquainted with it. Whether you want to admit it or not, you're not
>>>>> _trying_ Linux, are you?
>>>>
>>>> So how long do you think "most people who try Linux" will spend
>>>> "most of their time making it look pretty", as you say?
>>>>
>>>> For example: how long did you spend yourself?
>>>
>>> I think that most people spend the first three days making it look just
>>> right. Once they're content with the aesthetics, they try to use it as
>>> they would a regular Windows or Mac computer. That's where they start
>>> noticing that some hardware isn't operating as it should (less of a
>>> problem than it used to be) or that the software available doesn't
>>> necessarily meet their needs. Within the first week, they encounter the
>>> more serious bugs and look for ways to either squash or circumvent them.
>>
>> I think you're mistaken about taking three days. If it takes that long to
>> customize your new Linux install, you probably have no business using a
>> computer at all.
>>
>> As far as hardware not operating as it should... not everyone wants to play
>> Windows games (using Wine) on Linux computers. For about 18 years I've never
>> had "serious hardware problems" on my Linux machines — and I've used many
>> Linux computers with several Linux distributions. I'm guessing 95% of your
>> issues with Linux is in trying to use Linux to run Windows games. Probably
>> with a nVidia video chip.
>
> It has nothing to do with the games. I was quite willing to sacrifice
> most of my library and play games made for Linux when I became serious
> about moving to the operating system completely. My problems seem to
> stem from the fact that my hardware always has an NVIDIA chip. When my
> brother came to me asking me to install Ubuntu on his all-AMD machine a
> few years ago (Windows was ridiculously slow on it), everything worked
> beautifully out of the box.

I guess nVidia is the main problem. It was even a problem in my wife's HP
laptop.

>>> However, I will say this much: if a person's first encounter with
>>> computing is in Linux, then they are likely never going to desire
>>> Windows or MacOS. For example, if Linux had been available in 1991 on a
>>> hand-me-down computer and I not been exposed to either Windows or Mac
>>> until say 1992, there is a strong chance that I would never have even
>>> wanted to use the commercial product. That first year would have allowed
>>> or any other user to get accustomed to the environment to a point that
>>> Windows or MacOS's weaknesses become a lot more evident. Because the
>>> opposite happens, people are left thinking that they are missing out on
>>> something that Microsoft or Apple is offering them.
>>
>> I'm missing out on a lot of things Windows has to offer. Viruses, malware,
>> BSODs, obnoxious ads, calls to "home," hosed up updates, the Registry file
>> and bitrot, to name a few.
>
> You're not wrong about any of that. It's part of why I will always have
> a fondness for Linux. However, its move toward wokeness is pushing me away.

I don't like the Wokeness either, but it doesn't seem to be limited to Linux.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 2024-08-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-17 7:20 a.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 16-08-2024, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Except that most people who try Linux spend most of their time making it
>>> look pretty.
>>
>> A lot of beginners stay with the defaults. Once they understood they can
>> adapt, they do. And when they do, they try a lot of things. But, soon,
>> they stay stable and stop adapting. The people who try to make it looks
>> pretty are not the real beginners. And once they do it, they don't stay
>> in that state for long. Of course, you'll find some guys who spend all
>> of their time to improve the way their desktop looks. But they are not
>> the majority. A lot of screenshots I saw who looked very nice are
>> unusable in real life. It's like FF/NV/LP/FR/whatever who spend all of
>> his time to compile his kernel. He's not the only one (even if he's the
>> only one here), but he's not among the majority.
>
> Larry Pietraskiewicz spending all of his time re-compiling the kernel
> for a potential 1% increase in speed demonstrates how little there is
> going on in his life.

There may have been a time (20+ years ago) when compiling your own code
would have made a significant difference. That time is long past. I remember
when PCs had to be updated for new business software, but that basically
ended (I think) with the i386 or maybe the i486 computers.

(I'm talking about office suites. For compiling code or producing video,
updating hardware may still be necessary for some.)

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine

On 18 Aug 2024 03:55:18 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> "Want to know why Microsoft didn't include it? It was deemed useless for
> professional work and was a waste of resources."

Funny, “waste of resources” never stopped Microsoft putting needless bloat
into Windows before.

The real problem with Aero Glass was the sheer embarrassment to Microsoft:
Linux systems with Compiz and derivatives could run those flashy effects
on really modest hardware -- I fired up KDE 4 on my humble Asus Eee 701
with its 900MHz uniprocessor Celeron, and had the effects running in real
time with no problem -- but Windows Vista needed much more expensive
hardware to run them satisfactorily.

That’s why Microsoft’s UI designers now try to persuade people that 3D
desktop effects are somehow old-fashioned, that “flat” is the trendy look
-- because they could never figure out how to implement those desktop
effects efficiently.

On 2024-08-17 9:48 p.m., vallor wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
> <v9rbe7$231ol$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 8/17/2024 6:52 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly windows and many
>>>> of the other effects.
>>>
>>> Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
>>> friends, not for daily use.
>>
>>
>> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
>>> windows that shatter when they close.
>>
>> How about windows that when you close them burn from the top down into a
>> pile of ashes? Nothing makes you more productive than that.
>
> Pretty sure compiz and beryl had those effects first.
>
> (It certainly has them now -- where is Windows?)
>
> I just fiddled with my desktop:
>
> $ compiz --replace
> $ ccsm
>
> I don't have wobbly windows enabled, but I have added a minimize and
> close effect for positive feedback. I also configured the desktop
> cube for maximum bling.
>
> Took all of 10 minutes. How long would it take you to do the same?

The point he's making is that the effects Linux has within some of its
desktop environments are entirely useless and don't improve productivity
in any way.

Remember, computing is about improving productivity and click-reduction
or something.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 2024-08-17 11:55 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS wrote:
>
>> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4
>
> "Want to know why Microsoft didn't include it? It was deemed useless for
> professional work and was a waste of resources."
>
> Every now and then M$ makes the right choice. Too bad releasing Aero
> wasn't one of them.

There was nothing wrong with Aero. It was a response to Apple's improved
sales through a modernized approach to the interface. Whether people
want to admit it or not, users don't want their desktops to look like
something out of the 1990s forever.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 2024-08-18 2:21 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-08-17 9:06 a.m., RonB wrote:
>>> On 2024-08-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>>>> On 2024-08-16 10:28 p.m., vallor wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 21:54:50 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote in
>>>>> <NpTvO.29578$8UD7.24479@fx01.iad>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 2024-08-16 8:56 p.m., vallor wrote:
>>>>>>> On Fri, 16 Aug 2024 17:01:09 -0400, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote
>>>>>>> in <r6PvO.330854$gJuc.106524@fx10.iad>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-16 4:26 p.m., Ulysses wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Chris Ahlstrom <OFeem1987@teleworm.us> wrote in
>>>>>>>>> news:v9nf31$1dkqg$9@dont-email.me:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 15 Aug 2024 12:07:15 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 2024-08-14, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 14 Aug 2024 13:00:00 -0000 (UTC), Borax Man wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That PeachPuff background would have burned your eyes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You must have real trouble reading black text on white paper.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Not really, but on screens I've always preferred light text on
>>>>>>>>>>>> dark background.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Then again, I tried the PeachPuff background when I read your post
>>>>>>>>>>>> in a dark room, so it wasn't the best place to suddenly expose
>>>>>>>>>>>> ones eyes to that!
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I get to do unexpected A/B testing. I use my Fire HD 10 tablet
>>>>>>>>>>> mostly for reading Kindle books, with black text on a white
>>>>>>>>>>> background. When the charge gets down to 20% it automatically goes
>>>>>>>>>>> to white on black. I immediately go to Settings for I can override
>>>>>>>>>>> the power saving mode until I get it on a charger. I can read the
>>>>>>>>>>> white on black with no problem but I don't like it.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I do agree when I wake up at 4AM and decide to read for a while the
>>>>>>>>>>> glaring white tablet is a shock on my eyes until my pupils get with
>>>>>>>>>>> the program.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I've always used FB Reader on my tablets. Fully configurable. I use
>>>>>>>>>> black on light grey mostly, and at night slide my finger down on the
>>>>>>>>>> left to reduce the brightness.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sometimes I'll find HTML novels (e.g. Edgar Rice Burroughs) on
>>>>>>>>>> Gutenberg, and they're usually kind of a dark brown font on cream
>>>>>>>>>> yellow pages.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Try 1984 you might learn something because you are currently living
>>>>>>>>> it.Spend less time trying to make it look pretty and more time trying
>>>>>>>>> to understand it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Except that most people who try Linux spend most of their time making
>>>>>>>> it look pretty.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <sigh> Here we go again...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This last week, I've been spending most of my time writing a book, and
>>>>>>> using the Unix typesetting tools of yore to get the job done faster
>>>>>>> than with a wysiwyg editor.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Most people who _try_ Linux would be newcomers, who probably spend
>>>>>>> "most of their time" on support forums...if needed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 🧘️
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notice the verb _try_. It is true of people who are just getting
>>>>>> acquainted with it. Whether you want to admit it or not, you're not
>>>>>> _trying_ Linux, are you?
>>>>>
>>>>> So how long do you think "most people who try Linux" will spend
>>>>> "most of their time making it look pretty", as you say?
>>>>>
>>>>> For example: how long did you spend yourself?
>>>>
>>>> I think that most people spend the first three days making it look just
>>>> right. Once they're content with the aesthetics, they try to use it as
>>>> they would a regular Windows or Mac computer. That's where they start
>>>> noticing that some hardware isn't operating as it should (less of a
>>>> problem than it used to be) or that the software available doesn't
>>>> necessarily meet their needs. Within the first week, they encounter the
>>>> more serious bugs and look for ways to either squash or circumvent them.
>>>
>>> I think you're mistaken about taking three days. If it takes that long to
>>> customize your new Linux install, you probably have no business using a
>>> computer at all.
>>>
>>> As far as hardware not operating as it should... not everyone wants to play
>>> Windows games (using Wine) on Linux computers. For about 18 years I've never
>>> had "serious hardware problems" on my Linux machines — and I've used many
>>> Linux computers with several Linux distributions. I'm guessing 95% of your
>>> issues with Linux is in trying to use Linux to run Windows games. Probably
>>> with a nVidia video chip.
>>
>> It has nothing to do with the games. I was quite willing to sacrifice
>> most of my library and play games made for Linux when I became serious
>> about moving to the operating system completely. My problems seem to
>> stem from the fact that my hardware always has an NVIDIA chip. When my
>> brother came to me asking me to install Ubuntu on his all-AMD machine a
>> few years ago (Windows was ridiculously slow on it), everything worked
>> beautifully out of the box.
>
> I guess nVidia is the main problem. It was even a problem in my wife's HP
> laptop.

That's why I'm paying lots of attention to vallor's announcements about
the open NVIDIA chip. Back in 2021, I wanted to just go ahead and buy an
AMD-based laptop to make sure that there was a proper entry point into
using Linux exclusively, but none of the devices available with such
hardware were anything better than mid-range plastic crap that was
guaranteed to break. I knew that yet another NVIDIA laptop was likely to
give me problems in Linux, and I was right. At the very least, this one
does better than the previous one did.

>>>> However, I will say this much: if a person's first encounter with
>>>> computing is in Linux, then they are likely never going to desire
>>>> Windows or MacOS. For example, if Linux had been available in 1991 on a
>>>> hand-me-down computer and I not been exposed to either Windows or Mac
>>>> until say 1992, there is a strong chance that I would never have even
>>>> wanted to use the commercial product. That first year would have allowed
>>>> or any other user to get accustomed to the environment to a point that
>>>> Windows or MacOS's weaknesses become a lot more evident. Because the
>>>> opposite happens, people are left thinking that they are missing out on
>>>> something that Microsoft or Apple is offering them.
>>>
>>> I'm missing out on a lot of things Windows has to offer. Viruses, malware,
>>> BSODs, obnoxious ads, calls to "home," hosed up updates, the Registry file
>>> and bitrot, to name a few.
>>
>> You're not wrong about any of that. It's part of why I will always have
>> a fondness for Linux. However, its move toward wokeness is pushing me away.
>
> I don't like the Wokeness either, but it doesn't seem to be limited to Linux.

On 2024-08-18 2:26 a.m., RonB wrote:
> On 2024-08-17, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
>> On 2024-08-17 7:20 a.m., Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>>> Le 16-08-2024, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Except that most people who try Linux spend most of their time making it
>>>> look pretty.
>>>
>>> A lot of beginners stay with the defaults. Once they understood they can
>>> adapt, they do. And when they do, they try a lot of things. But, soon,
>>> they stay stable and stop adapting. The people who try to make it looks
>>> pretty are not the real beginners. And once they do it, they don't stay
>>> in that state for long. Of course, you'll find some guys who spend all
>>> of their time to improve the way their desktop looks. But they are not
>>> the majority. A lot of screenshots I saw who looked very nice are
>>> unusable in real life. It's like FF/NV/LP/FR/whatever who spend all of
>>> his time to compile his kernel. He's not the only one (even if he's the
>>> only one here), but he's not among the majority.
>>
>> Larry Pietraskiewicz spending all of his time re-compiling the kernel
>> for a potential 1% increase in speed demonstrates how little there is
>> going on in his life.
>
> There may have been a time (20+ years ago) when compiling your own code
> would have made a significant difference. That time is long past. I remember
> when PCs had to be updated for new business software, but that basically
> ended (I think) with the i386 or maybe the i486 computers.
>
> (I'm talking about office suites. For compiling code or producing video,
> updating hardware may still be necessary for some.)

What originally attracted me to Gentoo, around 2004 or so, was my friend
telling me that the distribution was basically just source and that I
could compile it specifically for my processor. He told me the speed
benefits would be significant.

I recall printing their instructions, following them exactly and
compiling for the AMD Athlon or whatever I was using at the time. Every
time, it failed to run. If I _didn't_ set any of the flags the
instructions recommended for my processor, the distribution worked fine
but ended up being no better than any other distribution. Looking back,
I doubt I would have gotten any higher than a 2% difference, but I am
still disgusted by how following their instructions resulted in failure.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

Farley Flud wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On 17 Aug 2024 00:19:37 GMT, vallor wrote:
>
>>
>> I basically used another deroff.l for examples, referred to the flex(1)
>> info documentation, and rolled my own scanner to skip the necessary lines.
>>
>> All-in-all, it was a fruitful evening, because
>> I learned something.
>
> Flex does not support Unicode which makes it somewhat anachronistic.
>
> There is, however, RE-flex:
>
> https://github.com/Genivia/RE-flex
>
> But since flex is such a critical tool, I would like to see
> a Unicode flex from the GNU project.

Who the hell put's Unicode in their C/C++ code? (Except as data).

--
The devil can cite Scripture for his purpose.
-- William Shakespeare, "The Merchant of Venice"

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 07:07:20 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

>
> Who the hell put's Unicode in their C/C++ code? (Except as data).
>

Both C and C++ now accept UTF-8 in variable names and identifiers.

This is very convenient in scientific programming where lots of
Greek symbols are used:

#include <stdio.h>
#include <stdlib.h>
#include <math.h>

#define π M_PI
double ρ=1.0;

int main(){
printf("The circumference of a circle of radius %g is %g.\n",
ρ,2*π*ρ);
exit(0);
}

Compile via:

gcc -finput-charset=UTF-8 -fextended-identifiers

--
Systemd: solving all the problems that you never knew you had.

On 8/17/2024 9:48 PM, vallor wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS <nospam@dfs.com> wrote in
> <v9rbe7$231ol$1@dont-email.me>:
>
>> On 8/17/2024 6:52 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 09:11:10 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>>>
>>>> ... I don't blame people for wanting to enable wobbly windows and many
>>>> of the other effects.
>>>
>>> Wobbly windows are fun for inducing Linux-envy in Microsoft/Apple-using
>>> friends, not for daily use.
>>
>>
>> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> For daily use, I have crossfade between desktops (subtle). And also
>>> windows that shatter when they close.
>>
>> How about windows that when you close them burn from the top down into a
>> pile of ashes? Nothing makes you more productive than that.
>
> Pretty sure compiz and beryl had those effects first.

I didn't claim otherwise.

> (It certainly has them now -- where is Windows?)

Generating gazillions in revenue and jobs and owning/driving the PC
industry for 34 years straight.

> I just fiddled with my desktop:
>
> $ compiz --replace
> $ ccsm
>
> I don't have wobbly windows enabled, but I have added a minimize and
> close effect for positive feedback. I also configured the desktop
> cube for maximum bling.
>
> Took all of 10 minutes.

You should've diddled yourself for 10 minutes instead.

> How long would it take you to do the same?

1 minute after installing Win8

https://www.instructables.com/Desktop-Cube-Windows-only/

http://www.thinkinbytes.com/en/products/cubedesktop/requirements/

Didn't find a rotating cube for Win 11, but this Google app gives you a
view of your desktop as if you're inside the 3d cube

https://bumptop.github.io/

Farley Flud wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 07:07:20 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>>
>> Who the hell put's Unicode in their C/C++ code? (Except as data).
>>
>
> Both C and C++ now accept UTF-8 in variable names and identifiers.
>
> This is very convenient in scientific programming where lots of
> Greek symbols are used:
>
> #include <stdio.h>
> #include <stdlib.h>
> #include <math.h>
>
> #define π M_PI
> double ρ=1.0;
>
> int main(){
> printf("The circumference of a circle of radius %g is %g.\n",
> ρ,2*π*ρ);
> exit(0);
> }
>
> Compile via:
>
> gcc -finput-charset=UTF-8 -fextended-identifiers

Thanks for the update.

--
I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know.
-- Mark Twain

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 06:36:06 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> There was nothing wrong with Aero. It was a response to Apple's improved
> sales through a modernized approach to the interface. Whether people
> want to admit it or not, users don't want their desktops to look like
> something out of the 1990s forever.

Desktops are like women's fashions. With a constant search for something
new sooner or later they reinvent something old. Skeuomorphic designs gave
way to flat with Windows 8 and Google's Material Design. Fluent Design is
sort of a mix with Windows 11 throwing in neuromorphic designs here and
there.

No matter how much lipstick you put on it a buttin is a button and a
toggle is a toggle.

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 07:01:14 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> That's why I'm paying lots of attention to vallor's announcements about
> the open NVIDIA chip. Back in 2021, I wanted to just go ahead and buy an
> AMD-based laptop to make sure that there was a proper entry point into
> using Linux exclusively, but none of the devices available with such
> hardware were anything better than mid-range plastic crap that was
> guaranteed to break. I knew that yet another NVIDIA laptop was likely to
> give me problems in Linux, and I was right. At the very least, this one
> does better than the previous one did.

I'm waiting for an open spec to replace CUDA. So far Nvidia has a lock on
CUDA but that's not going to stand with everyone getting into the AI game.

On 2024-08-18 2:02 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 06:36:06 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> There was nothing wrong with Aero. It was a response to Apple's improved
>> sales through a modernized approach to the interface. Whether people
>> want to admit it or not, users don't want their desktops to look like
>> something out of the 1990s forever.
>
> Desktops are like women's fashions. With a constant search for something
> new sooner or later they reinvent something old. Skeuomorphic designs gave
> way to flat with Windows 8 and Google's Material Design. Fluent Design is
> sort of a mix with Windows 11 throwing in neuromorphic designs here and
> there.
>
> No matter how much lipstick you put on it a buttin is a button and a
> toggle is a toggle.

Indeed. For my tastes, I would want it to look as simple as possible so
as to use as few resources as possible. I figure that even if you have
32GB of RAM as standard, an operating environment should strive to
function properly in as little as 16MB of RAM. That additional memory
should be reserved for applications, not an operating system's
unquenchable desire for resources.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 06:32:22 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:

> The point he's making is that the effects Linux has within some of its
> desktop environments are entirely useless and don't improve productivity
> in any way.
>
> Remember, computing is about improving productivity and click-reduction
> or something.

That argues against your statements on shiny new UIs in another thread.
Only taking into account the UX does Windows 11 allow greater productivity
than Windows 2000?

On 2024-08-18 2:09 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 07:01:14 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> That's why I'm paying lots of attention to vallor's announcements about
>> the open NVIDIA chip. Back in 2021, I wanted to just go ahead and buy an
>> AMD-based laptop to make sure that there was a proper entry point into
>> using Linux exclusively, but none of the devices available with such
>> hardware were anything better than mid-range plastic crap that was
>> guaranteed to break. I knew that yet another NVIDIA laptop was likely to
>> give me problems in Linux, and I was right. At the very least, this one
>> does better than the previous one did.
>
> I'm waiting for an open spec to replace CUDA. So far Nvidia has a lock on
> CUDA but that's not going to stand with everyone getting into the AI game.

As much as I enjoy the fact that artificial intelligence has made it
incredibly easy for me to get a graphical representation of whatever it
is I have on my mind, I have to feel bad for people who went into
graphic design and have all become obsolete. Seriously, you used to have
to pay these people top dollar for something like a logo design that you
can now create in seconds for free.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 2024-08-18 2:15 p.m., rbowman wrote:
> On Sun, 18 Aug 2024 06:32:22 -0400, CrudeSausage wrote:
>
>> The point he's making is that the effects Linux has within some of its
>> desktop environments are entirely useless and don't improve productivity
>> in any way.
>>
>> Remember, computing is about improving productivity and click-reduction
>> or something.
>
> That argues against your statements on shiny new UIs in another thread.
> Only taking into account the UX does Windows 11 allow greater productivity
> than Windows 2000?

I'm making a statement about _his_ point, not mine. In my case, I want
the system to be as simple as possible so that your computer's resources
go to the software rather than the system itself. However, I can
understand why the corporations behind the operating systems make some
of the changes they insist on making. For instance, as much as people
hated Vista, I didn't hate it. I knew that it was a complete rewrite of
the code Windows had been using for a while and that there were going to
be growing pains. The incredible success of 7, which was little more
than an optimized Vista, ended up confirming what I believed.

If you're asking what I would want my operating system of choice to be
like though, the answer is 2000. It looked right, the resources it
required weren't ridiculous and it was stable. If something like that
were to be released requiring no more than about 256MB of RAM all the
while providing most of the functionality people expect, the system
would eradicate any need for Linux among those people who want to hold
onto their old machines for as long as possible. However, no corporation
has any desire to cater to those people since the very fact that they
want such a system is because they refuse to spend any more money, so I
don't blame anyone for not producing such a thing.

--
CrudeSausage
Catholic, paleoconservative, Christ is king

On 2024-08-18, CrudeSausage <crude@sausa.ge> wrote:
> On 2024-08-17 11:55 p.m., rbowman wrote:
>> On Sat, 17 Aug 2024 19:23:57 -0400, DFS wrote:
>>
>>> Wobbly windows is another thing Linux stole from Microsoft.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-7wFNwQm_4
>>
>> "Want to know why Microsoft didn't include it? It was deemed useless for
>> professional work and was a waste of resources."
>>
>> Every now and then M$ makes the right choice. Too bad releasing Aero
>> wasn't one of them.
>
> There was nothing wrong with Aero. It was a response to Apple's improved
> sales through a modernized approach to the interface. Whether people
> want to admit it or not, users don't want their desktops to look like
> something out of the 1990s forever.

It's a matter of taste. Personally I don't care if the OS "looks like" it
came from the 1990s. I just care if it works.

--
[Self-centered, Woke] "pride is a life of self-destructive fakery, an
entrapment to a false and self-created matrix of twisted unreality."
"It was pride that changed angels into devils..." — St. Augustine