On 12/31/2024 2:25 PM, Lameass Larry Piet wrote:

> On Tue, 31 Dec 2024 13:18:02 -0500, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:
>
>>
>> LaTeX is a buncha wrapper macros to simplify TeX, I think.
>>
>
> LaTex is the global standard for mathematical typesetting.
>
> Regarding mathematics publishing of any kind, there is no mention,
> and there never was any mention, and there never will be any mention,
> of Microslop.

Another of Feeb's daily lies and ignorance:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I write Math books in MS Word 2007 with Mathtype 6.0 for writting
equations." Dec 2013

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I am writing a book using MS Word 2007. The book will have lots of
mathematical calculations, equations, formulas, square-root symbols,
squares and cube symbols, etc. and will span across algebra, polynomial
equations, differentiation, integration, etc." Aug 2019

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"I used to work for an academic press, and we accepted all our journal
articles in word except for one math journal that was in TeX." 2021

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Over the past few decades, I’ve written hundreds of technical documents
containing diagrams, tables, and mathematics, including a 400 page book
about computer geometry.

Prior to starting the book, I used MS Word for everything. For the book,
I switched back and forth between Word and LaTeX 3 or 4 times, and
eventually settled on LaTeX. I still use MS Word or Google Docs for
everything except books.

It took me a very long time to get the formatting set up the way I
wanted in LaTeX. The memoir package was a big help — in the LaTeX world
the solution to every problem is “there’s a package”. But your publisher
might give you a document template, anyway, so you’ll have no choice
about formatting.

Creating tables in LaTeX is ridiculously complicated, compared to MS
Word. For diagrams, the TeX purists favor tools like Tikz and Asymptote,
in which you essentially create a picture by writing code. I find this
approach impossible, so I make pictures in drawing packages, or
PowerPoint, or CAD systems, and include them in the LaTeX document as
PDF. That works fine.

I think LaTeX is faster for simple in-line math, but for big complex
equations, I find Word faster because I can see the equation emerging as
I type it, so I make fewer mistakes.

In the end, I chose LaTeX because I very much like the appearance of the
Computer Modern fonts, and getting those to work in MS Word was painful.
But some publishers will insist on changing fonts, anyway." Jun 2021
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also:
https://superuser.com/questions/340650/type-math-formulas-in-microsoft-word-the-latex-way

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Typing_Mathematics_in_Microsoft_Word

https://www.reddit.com/r/math/comments/q4be8m/why_microsoft_word_isnt_much_used_for_writing/

> It's FOSS LaTex all the way!

Definitely not.

> Microslop is for brain-dead secretaries what cannot even
> add 2+2.

Say there Jethro, how many prime numbers in that equation?

On 2025-01-04 11:45, DFS wrote:

>>> Right-click on the Win11 Start button.
>>
>> You missed the point: there is inconsistency.
>
>
> Which Linux distro offers perfect consistency?

Honestly? Linux Mint and the KDE spin of Fedora, from my experience at
least. I would add Nobara there since I used it for a bit.

> I agree there is significant overlap/duplication/confusion between
> Win10/11 Settings and Control Panel.  Either it was too much work to
> migrate all the Control Panel functionality at once to Settings, or they
> left Control Panel intact for a while because of the massive installed
> base that expects it.

I would imagine that it's the latter. However, the point here is not
that the Control Panel shouldn't be there; it's that the fact that it is
still is shows an inconsistency on the part of Microsoft Windows. They
could have migrated that to something new since it is apparently in
their interest to do so, but they haven't yet. As such, any new user of
Windows is going to wonder why some things are using a modern interface
and others are using an archaic one. They will also wonder why they need
to go into this archaic interface to do basic things which should be
possible in the modern one such as set up a printer or configure a more
complicated network connection.

>> Why would you update through Windows Update but manage through Device
>> Manager?
>
> That's how it's done in ALL operating systems, right?

No, with Linux the device is either detected or it isn't. The best
possible driver for the hardware, if it's detected, is automatically in
the kernel except when it can't be because it is proprietary like the
NVIDIA driver. As such, there is little to no need to play with drivers
unlike Windows. With Windows, the latest audio driver might break
something which prompts you to restore the previous one. However,
Microsoft routinely updates that driver regardless of the fact that you
need it so you quickly need to be acquainted with the Control Panel and
the reversion process there. It was also the case for the dreaded
MediaTek MT7921 wireless chip: some drivers were better than others so
you had to try them all until you got the best one for your setting. In
Linux, the best possible one was bundled by default but it didn't change
the fact that the hardware was just pure garbage from the very beginning
and should be switched at the first opportunity.

< snip >

> Maybe.  Maybe not.
>
> I haven't picked apart a GuhNoo distro in years, but it's always
> entertaining to find glaring distro bugs, even in 2025.
>
> Apparently GuhNoo devs get so distracted by their long blue hair and
> uncomfortable ball-tucking that they can't focus on the unpleasant task
> of testing.

The blue-haired losers are developing every one of the operating systems
nowadays. As Lunduke pointed out in his latest video, the only operating
systems you can install which don't have a shred of woke are OpenBSD and
the ones that existed before woke became a thing. Are you interested in
using MS-DOS or OS/2 Warp 3? That's part of why I am now down to using
the best distribution I've come across: Fedora. I refuse to give them a
cent of my money though.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

On 1/4/2025 1:01 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
> Le 04-01-2025, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>>
>> Which Linux distro offers perfect consistency?
>
> First, I'd say it's not the job of the distro. It's the job of the
> Window Manager.
>
> Now, the first time I installed Mint for someone else, I installed a few
> different WM to show that there is no better WM, there is only a WM
> which suit more the user. And they have to be tested to know which one
> to chose. I have to say it was disturbing to see they all look similar
> and I still don't know if I like it or not.
>
> So, Mint is not perfect, but it's the only one I know which offer real
> consistency.

Cinnamon desktop?

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 11:45:38 -0500, DFS wrote:

> I agree there is significant overlap/duplication/confusion between
> Win10/11 Settings and Control Panel. Either it was too much work to
> migrate all the Control Panel functionality at once to Settings, or they
> left Control Panel intact for a while because of the massive installed
> base that expects it.

That's been a problem for as long as I've used Windows. "Where the hell
did they put it this time?" Sometimes it's obscure. If I'm trying to find
the thumbprint of a certificate how do I do it? I think you can do it
through the Control Panel although I start mmc and load the snapin. How do
you find the timeout for DCOM? I think that's dcommgr but I can never
remember the exact name. MS isn't very consistent. It's taskmgr but is it
netmgr?

Sometimes it seems to be only a name change like 'Add Remove Programs'.
However the change means the icon winds up in a new place on the panel. A
few time the changes did add clarity. Having two odbc32 executables, one
of which actually handled 64-bit connections was brilliant. Then there's
SysWOW64 for 32-bit apps and system32 for 64-bit.

None of the functionality has changed for at least 25 years when NT 4 and
ME came together.

Le 04-01-2025, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
> On 1/4/2025 1:01 PM, Stéphane CARPENTIER wrote:
>> Le 04-01-2025, DFS <guhnoo-basher@linux.advocaca> a écrit :
>>>
>>> Which Linux distro offers perfect consistency?
>>
>> First, I'd say it's not the job of the distro. It's the job of the
>> Window Manager.
>>
>> Now, the first time I installed Mint for someone else, I installed a few
>> different WM to show that there is no better WM, there is only a WM
>> which suit more the user. And they have to be tested to know which one
>> to chose. I have to say it was disturbing to see they all look similar
>> and I still don't know if I like it or not.
>>
>> So, Mint is not perfect, but it's the only one I know which offer real
>> consistency.
>
> Cinnamon desktop?

What I mean is cinnamon is the default desktop. I don't like it, it's a
matter of taste, it's of no concern here. But when I installed xfce,
lxde and enlightenment, they all looked like cinnamon and that was
disturbing. I was hopping to show different ways of using Linux, but
they were so similar, it was like showing the Window Manager is of no
consequence, they can all look the same. So, it was a consistency
brought by the distro, not by the WM.

--
Si vous avez du temps à perdre :
https://scarpet42.gitlab.io

FWIW, IMO from a system management and system maintenace standpoint,
Windows 11 (and 10 for that matter) is not user-friendly at all.

Actually I would be hard-pressed to come up with anything in Windows
11 (itself, not applications/software for it) which is user-friendly.

I think regular users (not 'geeks' like us) just try to run their
'applications' on it till it breaks and then give it to some
acquaintance etc. or 'professional' to (try to) fix.

Luckily, I have no such users in my circle of family, friends, etc..
Only one (heavy) Windows user, but he's an IT professional. Others are
mostly Apple users (phones, tablets, laptops, 'desktops'), who mostly
seem to get by without too many problems (or at least they don't bother
me with them :-)).

Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

[...]

> I think regular users (not 'geeks' like us) just try to run their
> 'applications' on it till it breaks and then give it to some
> acquaintance etc. or 'professional' to (try to) fix.
>
> Luckily, I have no such users in my circle of family, friends, etc..
> Only one (heavy) Windows user, but he's an IT professional. Others are
> mostly Apple users (phones, tablets, laptops, 'desktops'), who mostly
> seem to get by without too many problems (or at least they don't bother
> me with them :-)).
>

[OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint it
all "just works". There's not much need to get the screwdriver out at
all. What's more, Apple kit interoperates within the Apple ecosystem
without difficulty. So what if it's a walled garden.

You get what you paid for, that's why Apple kit is worth its high price.

Over the years I've migrated from DOS via Windows (3.1 to NT) to Linux
(many flavours) and finally via Mac OS X to macOS. I keep instances of
Linux and Windows in VMs for the occasional job where there isn't a Mac
program for it, so I do have some experience. When you get tired of
banging the side of the box to make things work, the reliabilty of Apple
is blessed relief.

[relurk]

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Fri, 1/3/2025 8:55 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:

> Installing Windows 11? The installer won't allow you to continue without logging
> in to your account. Sure, there are workarounds if you pray five times a day and
> stand on your head doing so, but it doesn't allow it be default.

Start with the https://rufus.ie USB stick preparation tool.

Name: rufus-4.6p.exe # Portable version
Size: 1622832 bytes (1584 KiB)
SHA256: 8279696C1D78B14618500E9135886A3667B9DECC65946F3729002E4BFDBB20AB

Run from Windows machine, to prepare Windows 11 media for clean install to a PC.
If Linux is onboard the target (to-be-installed) machine, make sure you have
prepared a [Linux] Boot Repair CD for later, when Linux needs to be returned to control.

It uses syslinux for the USB boot part, plus it modifies some
of the goods in the Windows 11 materials, for Windows-10-like behavior.
There is a separate dialog box, which only applies when you tell
Rufus (one way or another) that this is a Windows 11 project, that
will appear before the writes to the stick start.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/9Q0kMWTB/Rufus-Boot-Stick-Preparation.gif

Note that, if you are using a Window 11 24H2 ISO, there is a
remote possibility that Rufus will defeat the usual issues,
however, Microsoft has promised the OS will *crash* if the
hardware does not support SSE4.2 POPCNT instruction. I tries on
the Optiplex 780, the E8400 Core2 Duo lacks the instruction, and
a Microsoft dialog stops the install. I don't get to crash.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/X7Pw33gF/optiplex-780-Core2-Duo-W11-Fail.gif

Notice how in that example, I install W10Home first, then while
booted into Windows, I plug in the Rufus stick and run the Setup.exe
file on it. And do a W11-over-W10 installation. Which is a lot
smoother than what I'm about to show you.

If you made media from the 24H2 ISO, and had a perfectly compliant
machine, this is the hay ride you get to take. Starting over, ls likely
to be your fate. Imagine the length of the storyboard and how many
whiteboards it took to put together this customer torture sequence.
Notice on this side-by-side Clean Install of W11Home, my new C:
drive is Bitlocker encrypted. The key for it, will be stored
in my Cloud account at Microsoft, indexed by the new MSA I'm forced
to make.

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/XX6BGN1D/W11-24-H2-DVD-Install.gif

*******

Finally, this is the Success Case. W11-over-W10 using Rufus stick Setup.exe .

[Picture]

https://i.postimg.cc/T1FGRGJ7/Rufus-W11-Home-24-H2-on-10-year-old-machine.gif

Looks like Disk #33, normally used for Win10, now has a Win11 24H2 dual boot.
Since the processor has a POPCNT, no problem getting the install to work.

Paul

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 10:32:52 -0500, DFS wrote:

> I've been itching for the better part of 20 years for a cola-based MS
> Office detractor to do some significant LO/Basic coding so it could be
> compared to my Office/VBA.

Do you have an equivalent to this <https://github.com/eea/odfpy>?

Here’s just one part of my invoice-formatting code:

def write_invoice_header(self, invoice) :
self.doc = odf.opendocument.OpenDocumentText()
self.invoice_prefix = invoice["invoice_prefix"]

now = time.time()
for \
this_meta \
in \
(
odf.dc.Title(text = "Invoice for %s" % invoice["client_name"].split("\n", 1)[0]),
odf.dc.Creator(text = "Geek Central Business"),
odf.meta.CreationDate(text = format_odf_time(now)),
odf.dc.Date(text = format_odf_time(now)), # interpreted by OOo as modification date
) \
:
self.doc.meta.addElement(this_meta)
#end for

self.doc.fontfacedecls.addElement \
(
odf.style.FontFace
(
name = invoice_font,
fontfamilygeneric = "roman",
fontpitch = "variable"
)
)
default_text_properties = odf.style.TextProperties \
(
fontname = invoice_font,
fontfamilygeneric = "roman"
)
default_text_properties.setAttrNS(odf.namespaces.FONS, "font-family", invoice_font)
link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.DefaultStyle,
attrs = dict(family = "paragraph"),
parent = self.doc.styles,
children =
(
default_text_properties,
odf.style.ParagraphProperties
(
marginbottom = "0.21cm",
lineheight = "115%",
),
)
)

self.doc.text.addElement \
(
odf.text.P
(
stylename = link_element
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "top title", family = "paragraph"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
odf.style.ParagraphProperties
(
textalign = "center",
marginbottom = "0.71cm"
),
)
),
text = "%(gst)sINVOICE" % {"gst" : ("", "TAX ")[self.gst_rate != None]}
)
)

cust_info_item_attrs = dict \
(
textindent = "-2.0cm", # counteract marginleft on first line
marginleft = "2.0cm", # indent for lines after first
)
cust_info_item_style = link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "cust info item", family = "paragraph"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
odf.style.ParagraphProperties(**cust_info_item_attrs),
)
)
cust_info_item_attrs["breakbefore"] = "column"
cust_info_item_style_2 = link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "cust info item 2", family = "paragraph"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
odf.style.ParagraphProperties(**cust_info_item_attrs),
)
)

cust_info_style = link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "cust info", family = "section"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.SectionProperties,
children =
(
odf.style.Columns(columncount = 2),
)
),
)
)
cust_info_name_style = link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "cust info name", family = "text"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
odf.style.TextProperties(fontweight = "bold"),
)
)

cust_info = odf.text.Section(name = "cust info", stylename = cust_info_style)
for \
item_name, item_value, new_col \
in \
(
(
("Client", invoice["client_name"] + "\n" + invoice["client_address"], False),
("Contact", invoice["client_contact"], False),
("Date", format_pretty_date(invoice["when_generated"]), True),
(
"Pay to",
"\n".join((details.name, details.address_1, details.address_2))
+
(
"\n" + details.country_name,
"",
)[self.gst_rate != None],
False
),
("Bank a/c", details.bank_account, False),
)
+
(
(),
(
("GST No", details.ird_nr, False),
)
)[self.gst_rate != None]
) \
:
this_item = odf.text.P \
(
stylename = (cust_info_item_style, cust_info_item_style_2)[new_col]
)
add_elements \
(
this_item,
odf.text.Span(stylename = cust_info_name_style, text = item_name),
odf.text.Tab(),
)
first_line = True
for line in item_value.split("\n") :
if not first_line :
this_item.addElement(odf.text.LineBreak())
#end if
this_item.addElement \
(
odf.text.Span(text = line)
)
first_line = False
#end for
cust_info.addElement(this_item)
#end for
self.doc.text.addElement(cust_info)

link_element \
(
construct = odf.text.P,
attrs = dict
(
stylename = link_element
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "work header", family = "paragraph"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
odf.style.TextProperties(fontweight = "bold"),
link_element
(
construct = odf.style.ParagraphProperties,
children =
(
make_tab_stops((dict(position = "15.1cm"),)),
)
),
)
)
),
parent = self.doc.text,
children =
(
odf.text.Span(text = "Description of Work"),
odf.text.Tab(),
odf.text.Span(text = "Charge"),
)
)
self.work_item_tabs = \
(
dict
(
type = "char",
char = ".",
position = "15.9cm"
),
) # I can't simply build one odf.style.TabStops object and reuse it
self.work_item_style = link_element \
(
construct = odf.style.Style,
attrs = dict(name = "work item", family = "paragraph"),
parent = self.doc.automaticstyles,
children =
(
link_element
(
construct = odf.style.ParagraphProperties,
children =
(
make_tab_stops(self.work_item_tabs),
)
),
)
)
#end write_invoice_header

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 21:50:21 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:

> [OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint it
> all "just works".

Until it doesn’t. Why do you think Mac users feel the need for something
like Homebrew? That adds Linux-style package-manager functionality that is
missing from macOS. Because without it, trying to install open-source
software turns into a complete nightmare.

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 08:52:43 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 02:32:28 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We have that, too. It’s called Jupyter <https://jupyter.org/>.
>>>
>>> Not user-friendly enough.
>>
>> If by “user-friendly” you mean “aimed at those accustomed to Microsoft
>> mediocrity”, then you’d be right.
>
> I mean if presented to someone for the first time do they have a
> fighting chance of creating *anything*. With jupyter that's a big fat
> nope.

Which is why it’s so good you can use existing notebooks as a starting
point. A notebook is not just something to look at, it’s something you can
interact with.

Here <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i40d8-Hu4vM> is an example of what
can be done with Jupyter, for use by totally non-techy, quality-demanding,
paying-customer types.

On 1/4/2025 7:37 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 10:32:52 -0500, DFS wrote:
>
>> I've been itching for the better part of 20 years for a cola-based MS
>> Office detractor to do some significant LO/Basic coding so it could be
>> compared to my Office/VBA.

<snip>

> I can post more, if you like.

Why did you post python code? I explained clearly what's making me itch.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 21:50:21 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> [OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint it
>> all "just works".
>
> Until it doesn’t. Why do you think Mac users feel the need for something
> like Homebrew?

It's for power users familiar with apt or yum on linux. I doubt very much
typical users have any idea what Homebrew is.

> That adds Linux-style package-manager functionality that is
> missing from macOS. Because without it, trying to install open-source
> software turns into a complete nightmare.

Hardly.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 08:52:43 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 02:32:28 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> We have that, too. It’s called Jupyter <https://jupyter.org/>.
>>>>
>>>> Not user-friendly enough.
>>>
>>> If by “user-friendly” you mean “aimed at those accustomed to Microsoft
>>> mediocrity”, then you’d be right.
>>
>> I mean if presented to someone for the first time do they have a
>> fighting chance of creating *anything*. With jupyter that's a big fat
>> nope.
>
> Which is why it’s so good you can use existing notebooks as a starting
> point. A notebook is not just something to look at, it’s something you can
> interact with.

Which is where the problems start. A novice will edit something, fuck up
the notebook, and have no idea how to fix it.

> Here <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i40d8-Hu4vM> is an example of what
> can be done with Jupyter, for use by totally non-techy, quality-demanding,
> paying-customer types.

I have no doubt that jupyter is awesome. In the right hands. Not for excel
jockeys.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 02:19:07 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 12:09:28 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>
>>>>> ... suggests that people don't do much other than open up Word and
>>>>> Excel.
>>>>
>>>> In the professional world that's pretty accurate.
>>>
>>> Doesn’t sound like that adjective “professional” extends to the actual
>>> quality of results, then.
>>
>> Based on what, exactly?
>
> Based on the known issues with over-reliance on Microsoft products.

Such as? Excluding the gene name issue, which is pretty niche.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 21:50:21 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:

[silent megasnip, tsk]

> > [OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint
> > it all "just works".
> >
>
> Until it doesn't. Why do you think Mac users feel the need for something
> like Homebrew? That adds Linux-style package-manager functionality that is
> missing from macOS. Because without it, trying to install open-source
> software turns into a complete nightmare.
>

I don't feel that need. Why would I want to do that when I have a
penguin flavoured VM? In any case, 99% of Mac users have absolutely
no need for open-source s/w but any user with such an esoteric
requirement knows how to deal with it.

There is far more to computing for the vast majority of users than the
ability to run open-source. Get real!

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

Chris <ithinkiam@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
> > On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 21:50:21 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:
> >
> >> [OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint it
> >> all "just works".
> >>
> >
> > Until it doesn't. Why do you think Mac users feel the need for something
> > like Homebrew?
> >
>
> It's for power users familiar with apt or yum on linux. I doubt very much
> typical users have any idea what Homebrew is.
>

Exactly so.

> >
> > That adds Linux-style package-manager functionality that is
> > missing from macOS. Because without it, trying to install open-source
> > software turns into a complete nightmare.
> >
>
> Hardly.
>

Quite.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Sat, 1/4/2025 10:01 AM, Andrzej Matuch wrote:
> On 2025-01-03 23:50, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 02:32:28 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> We have that, too. It’s called Jupyter <https://jupyter.org/>.
>>>
>>> Not user-friendly enough.
>>
>> If by “user-friendly” you mean “aimed at those accustomed to Microsoft
>> mediocrity”, then you’d be right.
>
> At first glance, there is a lot about Windows that is way more user-friendly than Linux. However, if you take something like Linux Mint and compare it to Windows 11, you'd wonder _how_ Windows 11 is friendlier. In Windows 11, some applications can't be removed and you don't get an idea why. Some Windows components aren't even listed in the applications so you have to wonder how to install or remove them. For drivers, they're installed through Windows Update but if they don't work right, you just have to know about the Device Manager which is impossible to find on your own because they're phasing out the Control Panel. Some programs are available through the Window Store, others through the web which means that some are repairable and easily uninstallable whereas the others aren't... and so on. For new users, Linux Mint is actually _much_ simpler than Windows is.
>

A typical Windows user:

1) Uses the hard drive they bought, until one morning it doesn't respond.
"Yeah, it was clicking last week. What does that mean, anyway?"
2) They don't have any backups (as a followup to (1)).
3) Sometimes they notice that Windows Update hasn't run for the last 3 years.

Now, what could be simpler than that really ?

This is why sometimes, when a problem description comes along,
you don't know what they're talking about. And occasionally, you
discover their stuff is way way out of date and broken. And the chances
of fixing all the accumulated issues are pretty low.

Paul

On Fri, 1/3/2025 6:28 PM, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Fri, 3 Jan 2025 09:09:35 -0500, Paul wrote:
>
>> People using Office, there is an amazing range of skills.
>>
>> We make fun of the people, who can barely tie their own shoe laces using
>> computers. But there are also those, who win programming contests, who
>> can run circles around you.
>
> Using Excel? I’d go up against a champion Excel user, armed only with
> Python and Jupyter, and I would likely show them a thing or two.
>

The masters graduate had been working on some sort of behavioral
electrical model and doing convolution, and had been at it for six weeks.
The senior manager, finished the project in two days and had the
program deliver the results as a graph with the electrical waveform in it.
And the waveform was updating as the data became available in the
spreadsheet. I doubt the objective of the Fortran program, was
to draw a graph of the results. It was just to calculate the
data points for further post-analysis.

One of the reasons we occasionally wrote things in Fortran, was
hardware engineers would get together and compare notes, and
if they needed to collaborate on programming something, many
times Fortran was the only thing they had in common. This happened,
because the Universities at the time, taught Fortran. We were the
Fortran generation. And we used to laugh about this, the absurdity
of "well, we don't have any language other than Fortran, so
Fortran it is".

At another place I worked, it was PERL. The CAD tools had a few
shortcomings, and on some days, if you walked by desks, everyone
was coding in PERL to make up for the productivity shortfall of
the CAD tool. The funny part, was when one of our engineers won
the award with that brand of software, for the "most complex design
of the year" using the stuff. The potential customers would think
the CAD tool had done the work, when it was something like a hundred
individual PERL scripts that managed the design (the PERL updated
signal lists on wide buses in the design -- the CAD tool expected
you to "click each one and edit it", which is idiotic).

Necessity is the mother of invention. The people I worked with,
didn't care what they had for tools. If a manager didn't "enable"
your productivity, then tough. You'd "find a way". Like one
day, I was doing something at work, with a 6MHz PC from the
warehouse (in other words, worn out computer from storage).
I didn't particularly care how fast it was, as long as the
answers kept coming out of the thing. Nobody is going to be
curious later, how you got the job done, just that the job
was finished.

Paul

On 2025-01-04 19:39, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 21:50:21 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:
>
>> [OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint it
>> all "just works".
>
> Until it doesn’t. Why do you think Mac users feel the need for something
> like Homebrew? That adds Linux-style package-manager functionality that is
> missing from macOS. Because without it, trying to install open-source
> software turns into a complete nightmare.

I wanted to install something to calculate the wear on my MacBook M1's
storage and experienced this first-hand. It's much easier with Linux.

--
Andrzej (Andre) Matuch
Telegram: @AndrzejMatuch
Zephyrus G14 GA401QM on Fedora 41
KDE supporting member

Andrzej Matuch <andrzej@matu.ch> wrote:

> On 2025-01-04 19:39, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
> > On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 21:50:21 +0000, Sn!pe wrote:
[big snip]

> >> [OT] That's the great thing about Apple: from the users' viewpoint it
> >> all "just works".
> >>
> >
> > Until it doesn't. Why do you think Mac users feel the need for something
> > like Homebrew? That adds Linux-style package-manager functionality that is
> > missing from macOS. Because without it, trying to install open-source
> > software turns into a complete nightmare.
> >
>
> I wanted to install something to calculate the wear on my MacBook M1's
> storage and experienced this first-hand. It's much easier with Linux.
>

Fair comment. You're in a very small minority for wanting to do this.

--
^Ï^. Sn!pe, PTB, FIBS My pet rock Gordon just is.

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 19:32:32 -0500, Paul wrote:

>> Installing Windows 11? The installer won't allow you to continue without logging
>> in to your account. Sure, there are workarounds if you pray five times a day and
>> stand on your head doing so, but it doesn't allow it be default.
>
> [long-winded installation procedure deleted]

Which is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth nothing.

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 19:32:32 -0500, Paul wrote:

>> Installing Windows 11? The installer won't allow you to continue without logging
>> in to your account. Sure, there are workarounds if you pray five times a day and
>> stand on your head doing so, but it doesn't allow it be default.
>
> [long-winded installation procedure deleted]

Which is why they say, Windows is a great OS -- if your time is worth nothing.

On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 19:43:21 -0500, DFS wrote:

> Why did you post python code?

Because that’s what I use to automate my office operations.

So, can you come up with better VBA code than that?

On Sun, 5 Jan 2025 01:10:42 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Sat, 4 Jan 2025 02:19:07 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 2 Jan 2025 12:09:28 -0000 (UTC), Chris wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> ... suggests that people don't do much other than open up Word and
>>>>>> Excel.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the professional world that's pretty accurate.
>>>>
>>>> Doesn’t sound like that adjective “professional” extends to the actual
>>>> quality of results, then.
>>>
>>> Based on what, exactly?
>>
>> Based on the known issues with over-reliance on Microsoft products.
>
> Such as? Excluding the gene name issue, which is pretty niche.

It’s affecting a whole lot of research work
<https://genomebiology.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s13059-016-1044-7>.

Then there was the massive screwup over underreporting of COVID-19
figures in the UK, which went undetected for months
<https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/10/excel-glitch-may-have-caused-uk-to-underreport-covid-19-cases-by-15841/>.

The Austrian Social Democratic Party’s botched election of a new
leader
<https://www.theregister.com/2023/06/06/austria_election_excel_blunder/>.

How many Excel screwups can you commit in just one job?
<https://www.theregister.com/2023/10/12/excel_anesthetist_recruitment_blunder/>.

Is it a good idea for a Formula 1 team to use Excel to manage its
parts inventory?
<https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/03/formula-1-chief-appalled-to-find-team-using-excel-to-manage-20000-car-parts/>.

There are entire websites devoted to compiling errors caused by using
Microsoft Excel.