On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:43:49 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

> On 15 Jul 2024 04:59:23 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Unfortunately in my world people use Windows probably for the same
>> political reasons CERN uses Windows ...
>
> Who says CERN uses Windows (much)? I posted that link to the page where
> they list the various different Linux distros they support? You think
> they support a comparable number of Windows versions? I don’t think so.

https://linux.web.cern.ch/which/

So you get a choice of two distros, RHEL and AlmaLinux, which is based on
RHEL. 8.10 is still supported for both but 9.4 is recommented.

For Windows you can use 10 or 11. For some strange reason there isn't a
binary compatible fork of Windows that isn't Windows.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 16:00:04 -0000 (UTC), candycanearter07 wrote:

> Kinda depends on how much you travel, but what I'd think is like: after
> an average day of travel, you still have 30% or so left.

I only travel on 2 or 4 wheels; the laptop is hibernating.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

>That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
>the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of
>ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.

Made in Taiwan, of course. With Chinese warships circling.

--
"My whole claim is that JPGs can and often do have EXIF data (but need
not to). [Peter K] claims I am wrong." - some thing, lying
shamelessly (but no one can quote it lying)

chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>>That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
>>the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of
>>ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.
>
>Made in Taiwan, of course. With Chinese warships circling.

I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now. I'd ask why
it's only in the XPS 13, and Apple with VMs. I know that I'd give up
some Linux choice with an ARM device, so it's convenient that I have
perfectly good x86 gear right now, but boy if I were in laptops that
Dell would be a nice one.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On 7/15/2024 4:40 PM, Joel wrote:
> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>
>>> That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
>>> the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide range of
>>> ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.
>>
>> Made in Taiwan, of course. With Chinese warships circling.
>
>
> I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
> designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now. I'd ask why
> it's only in the XPS 13, and Apple with VMs. I know that I'd give up
> some Linux choice with an ARM device, so it's convenient that I have
> perfectly good x86 gear right now, but boy if I were in laptops that
> Dell would be a nice one.

You might like these:

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs

I like my 34" widescreen monitor and larger Comfort Curve 2000 keyboard,
so a laptop isn't for me.

DFS wrote:
> On 7/15/2024 4:40 PM, Joel wrote:
>> chrisv <chrisv@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>>>
>>>> That’s something that needs emphasizing: this isn’t “Windows-on-ARM” in
>>>> the sense of “Linux-on-ARM”, as in the ability to run on a wide
>>>> range of
>>>> ARM chips: this is very much only “Windows-on-Qualcomm-ARM”.
>>>
>>> Made in Taiwan, of course.  With Chinese warships circling.
>>
>>
>> I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
>> designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now.  I'd ask why
>> it's only in the XPS 13, and Apple with VMs.  I know that I'd give up
>> some Linux choice with an ARM device, so it's convenient that I have
>> perfectly good x86 gear right now, but boy if I were in laptops that
>> Dell would be a nice one.
>
>
> You might like these:
>
> https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/copilot-plus-pcs
>
> I like my 34" widescreen monitor and larger Comfort Curve 2000 keyboard,
> so a laptop isn't for me.
>
>
my monitor is 72 inches long

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 12:54:54 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.
>>>
>>> Dell already has this XPS 13 model.
>>
>>Just one?
>>
>>Just for comparison, how many Windows RT devices did they offer?
>
>
> This isn't like that.

Before they slapped on the RT monicker, it was referred to as Windows on
ARM. Deja vu?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT#First-generation_devices

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 12:54:54 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.
>>>
>>> Dell already has this XPS 13 model.
>>
>>Just one?
>>
>>Just for comparison, how many Windows RT devices did they offer?
>
> This isn't like that.

History repeats. Even when you don’t like it.

On 16 Jul 2024 00:16:24 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Before they slapped on the RT monicker, it was referred to as Windows on
> ARM.

I think after it failed to sell, they dropped the “RT” part. Which meant
that customers were liable to think they were getting a regular full-
function “Windows” device with an x86 chip, when they were in fact getting
a limited-functionality ARM one.

On 15 Jul 2024 17:41:56 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 05:43:49 -0000 (UTC), Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
>
>> Who says CERN uses Windows (much)? I posted that link to the page where
>> they list the various different Linux distros they support? You think
>> they support a comparable number of Windows versions? I don’t think so.
>
> https://linux.web.cern.ch/which/
>
> So you get a choice of two distros, RHEL and AlmaLinux, which is based
> on RHEL.

And “some CentOS versions”.

> For Windows you can use 10 or 11. For some strange reason there isn't a
> binary compatible fork of Windows that isn't Windows.

You do realize there are other versions of Windows, right?

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 16:40:44 -0400, Joel wrote:

> I believe this is the start of a revolution in CPU usage, if I were
> designing a machine I'd want an ARM processor right now.

Or better still, given some of the greedy noises Arm Ltd have been making,
RISC-V.

rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 12:54:54 -0400, Joel wrote:
>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>>>>They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.
>>>>
>>>> Dell already has this XPS 13 model.
>>>
>>>Just one?
>>>
>>>Just for comparison, how many Windows RT devices did they offer?
>>
>> This isn't like that.
>
>Before they slapped on the RT monicker, it was referred to as Windows on
>ARM. Deja vu?
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_RT#First-generation_devices

Clearly, this didn't have the level of emulation that WinARM does,
they will make the games work, emulation is all that will be needed.
Making a RISC CPU recognize that it's a subset that can be twisted
into a superset with code.

I would only buy ARM hardware, unless it's for this non-ARM device I
still have.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>>>>>They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.
>>>>
>>>> Dell already has this XPS 13 model.
>>>
>>>Just one?
>>>
>>>Just for comparison, how many Windows RT devices did they offer?
>>
>> This isn't like that.
>
>History repeats. Even when you don’t like it.

Nope, WinRT was small scale, you're making a comparison that doesn't
illustrate your point. The XPS 13 has x86 emulation.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:44:27 -0400, Joel wrote:

> ... they will make the games work, emulation is all that will be needed.

No, it won’t be enough.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> ... they will make the games work, emulation is all that will be needed.
>
>No, it won’t be enough.

You project this antiquated, outmoded CISC x86 hardware can be on the
stage with ARM, it's naive, you're putting legacy code over immediate
hardware revolution.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 21:47:29 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>>>>>They won’t start “hitting the market” until customers demand them.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dell already has this XPS 13 model.
>>>>
>>>>Just one?
>>>>
>>>>Just for comparison, how many Windows RT devices did they offer?
>>>
>>> This isn't like that.
>>
>>History repeats. Even when you don’t like it.
>
> Nope, WinRT was small scale, you're making a comparison that doesn't
> illustrate your point. The XPS 13 has x86 emulation.

The point being, Dell isn’t showing any greater commitment to Windows-on-
Qualcomm-ARM than they previously showed to Windows RT. If this Really Is
It as far as Windows finally arriving on ARM, you would expect to see a
bigger push on the part of the hardware vendors.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:14:19 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>> ... they will make the games work, emulation is all that will be
>>> needed.
>>
>>No, it won’t be enough.
>
> You project this antiquated, outmoded CISC x86 hardware can be on the
> stage with ARM, it's naive, you're putting legacy code over immediate
> hardware revolution.

I’m not the one doing that. It is the vendors and the developers and the
users themselves who are doing it--the whole Windows ecosystem remains
firmly stuck on x86, for all the myriad reasons I have already mentioned.
I am merely pointing out reality.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:14:19 -0400, Joel wrote:

> You project this antiquated, outmoded CISC x86 hardware can be on the
> stage with ARM, it's naive, you're putting legacy code over immediate
> hardware revolution.

https://www.anandtech.com/show/21469/amd-details-ryzen-ai-300-series-for-
mobile-strix-point-with-rdna-35-igpu-xdna-2-npu

Speaking of revolutions...

https://www.engadget.com/microsoft-rebuilt-windows-11-around-ai-and-arm-
chips-173152776.html

It will come down to which SKU offers the best price and performance for a
particular niche. The average user doesn't know or care about x64, arm64,
or a team of squirrels with abacuses. If Microsoft is lucky they won't
remember RT.

Don't get me wrong -- I was disappointed when IBM used the 8088 and led us
down the i86 hardware path, but here we are.

On 16 Jul 2024 06:40:55 GMT, rbowman wrote:

> Don't get me wrong -- I was disappointed when IBM used the 8088 and led
> us down the i86 hardware path, but here we are.

IBM had absolutely massive marketing clout over the entire computer
business back then--proportionately much more than Microsoft has right
now.

Look at Microsoft’s attempts to copy Linux--those are not the actions of
an undisputed market leader. They are those of a market follower.

rbowman wrote this copyrighted missive and expects royalties:

> On Mon, 15 Jul 2024 23:14:19 -0400, Joel wrote:
>
>> You project this antiquated, outmoded CISC x86 hardware can be on the
>> stage with ARM, it's naive, you're putting legacy code over immediate
>> hardware revolution.
>
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/21469/amd-details-ryzen-ai-300-series-for-
> mobile-strix-point-with-rdna-35-igpu-xdna-2-npu
>
> Speaking of revolutions...
>
> https://www.engadget.com/microsoft-rebuilt-windows-11-around-ai-and-arm-
> chips-173152776.html
>
> It will come down to which SKU offers the best price and performance for a
> particular niche. The average user doesn't know or care about x64, arm64,
> or a team of squirrels with abacuses. If Microsoft is lucky they won't
> remember RT.
>
> Don't get me wrong -- I was disappointed when IBM used the 8088 and led us
> down the i86 hardware path, but here we are.

Yeah, I liked the Motorola 68000 (used in the Atari ST). My Sun workstation
used a 68020 IIRC.

--
Your boss climbed the corporate ladder, wrong by wrong.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>> WinRT was small scale, you're making a comparison that doesn't
>> illustrate your point. The XPS 13 has x86 emulation.
>
>The point being, Dell isn’t showing any greater commitment to Windows-on-
>Qualcomm-ARM than they previously showed to Windows RT. If this Really Is
>It as far as Windows finally arriving on ARM, you would expect to see a
>bigger push on the part of the hardware vendors.

Give it a little time, this won't be the last product introduced.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:

>the whole Windows ecosystem remains
>firmly stuck on x86, for all the myriad reasons I have already mentioned.
>I am merely pointing out reality.

It would take time to replace all the x86 gear.

--
Joel W. Crump

Amendment XIV
Section 1.

[...] No state shall make or enforce any law which shall
abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the
United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of
life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal
protection of the laws.

Dobbs rewrites this, it is invalid precedent. States are
liable for denying needed abortions, e.g. TX.

Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote at 01:01 this Tuesday (GMT):
> On 16 Jul 2024 00:16:24 GMT, rbowman wrote:
>
>> Before they slapped on the RT monicker, it was referred to as Windows on
>> ARM.
>
> I think after it failed to sell, they dropped the “RT” part. Which meant
> that customers were liable to think they were getting a regular full-
> function “Windows” device with an x86 chip, when they were in fact getting
> a limited-functionality ARM one.

Was there no differentiation?
--
user <candycane> is generated from /dev/urandom

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 07:14:30 -0400, Chris Ahlstrom wrote:

> Yeah, I liked the Motorola 68000 (used in the Atari ST). My Sun
> workstation used a 68020 IIRC.

I had a 68000 development board and it was a nice processor. Motorola
would have had trouble producing the required 68008 parts. I liked the
Z8000 because if working with the Z80 but the 68000 was faster. However
Intel's 8088 was available and cheap.

IBM might have saved Intel's bacon too. Intel had invested a lot in the
iAPX 432 that was completely different than to 80xx processors and it
wasn't going well. It staggered on until '86 but they had cash flow from
the successive generations of the 8086.

There are a lot of twists and turns in the history of computing. Windows
on Arm Part 2 may take off like a cheetah or it may be another 'well it
sounded loke a good idea.'

On Tue, 16 Jul 2024 09:55:45 -0400, Joel wrote:

> Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> wrote:
>
>>the whole Windows ecosystem remains firmly stuck on x86, for all the
>>myriad reasons I have already mentioned.
>>I am merely pointing out reality.
>
>
> It would take time to replace all the x86 gear.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2024/07/german-navy-still-uses-8-inch-
floppy-disks-working-on-emulating-a-replacement/

Personally I don't remember using 8" floppies past the Mostek AID-80F in
the early '80s.

https://www.lot-art.com/auction-lots/Mostek-AID-80F/635w-
mostek_aid-05.12.18-bonham

Ah, the good old days when the morning procedure was to start the coffee
makers and put yesterday's EPROM in the UV eraser.